Ebay selling drilled Scottish Geocoin (Cont.)

[+Bambi&Thumper]

I promised I would let everyone know what happened following this thread, so here is a summary.

 

Firstly, I would like to thank everyone who has expressed concern regarding this sale. In particular I would like to thank, as before qichina who originally raised the issue here, Slytherin who identified us as the owners and Mongoose who drew my attention to the matter, but also Highland Geofairy, The Royles, Jerryo, Stuey (and anyone else I might have missed) who offered to buy it or tried to rescue it in some way.

 

As has been mentioned, I have been in contact with the seller and the auction winner, but unfortunately I have not recieved a reply from either and felt all I could do was report the sale to eBay. I appreciate that this almost certainly means the end of the coin's travelling life, but as has been said before elsewhere, we know the risks when we release these things. It is a shame that one person feels the need to make a profit out of someone else (I mean the original coin theif here - this is not an accusation aimed at the seller, I have no reason to believe that what they say is untrue, and that their father did not buy it in good faith as they claimed).

 

An even less pleasant side of this was an email I recieved in response to one I sent yesterday to the then highest bidder. Unfortunately, it would seem that the number of people who contacted him annoyed him and he took this out on me. The language was such that I am not quoting it here, but for the record this has also been reported to eBay. This incident does suggest that the shear number of well meaning people may have hindered our ability to recover this coin though, so I have a suggestion - Maybe there should be one person who people contact when they find a coin for sale like this and this one person contacts the seller and maybe the current highest bidder. This way we could all help, but it might prevent us annoying innocent bystanders and bringing GeoCaching into disrepute, while also helping us to get a favourable outcome.

 

Thanks again for all your help and support, we really appreciate it. It is very sad, but try to keep it in perspective, it was just a little lump of metal with a number stamped on it, albeit a pretty one with a life of its own.

 

Bambi.

[+Renegade Knight]

This is a problem I've kept at the back of my mind for some time. Thus far all solutions are time inensive. Your solution highlights how much time. Checking a coin for 'clear title' means checking all the coins in a collection you have purchased. That means plugging each one in the tracking sites and seeing of the owner is different than the one that sold it to you. Then following up and asking why.

 

Watching auctions you still have to do much the same thing (though you can focus on reported coins) and you have the added wrinke of multiple owners instead of just one.

 

An honest seller would have to charge more for the time it takes. Plan B is a coin is zero value until it's proven good, but then yo ucan't buy colletions. Unless you do it on consignment, which creates yet more complexity.

 

It's a tough problem to solve efficiently.

[+HazelS]

What a shame...

 

However, I'm really pleased you're able to see it for what it is and not get too hung up on it!

[+Bambi&Thumper]

This is a problem I've kept at the back of my mind for some time. Thus far all solutions are time inensive. Your solution highlights how much time. Checking a coin for 'clear title' means checking all the coins in a collection you have purchased. That means plugging each one in the tracking sites and seeing of the owner is different than the one that sold it to you. Then following up and asking why.

 

It's not so much from the seller side that I'm thinking, merely, when someone finds one of these coins on eBay and suspects that it is an activated traveller, they post to the GeoCoin/local forum and say, "This coin is for sale and person X has been notified and is informing the seller/bidders and negotiating. Please DO NOT contact them independently." And then person X (a sensible representative who deals with all these occurences) posts a summary once dealings have come to a close.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

B.

[The Royles]

Thanks for letting us know Bambi, sad it didnt work out.

 

edited on reflection

Edited December 19, 2007 by The Royles

[+Moote]

OK read your comment, and took a quick rain check on the legal side of this.

 

The coin legally belongs to you, and has been sold without your authorization.

 

This makes both the Seller and the Purchasers criminals as handling stolen goods is an offense.

 

It does appear that the seller might have been aware of this, at least during the sale as some members here let them know.

 

Therefore I would refer both sides to eBay, as it is this kind of "fenced" sale what could get any of us in trouble if we are the unwary buyer.

[+Bambi&Thumper]

OK read your comment, and took a quick rain check on the legal side of this.

 

The coin legally belongs to you, and has been sold without your authorization.

 

This makes both the Seller and the Purchasers criminals as handling stolen goods is an offense.

 

It does appear that the seller might have been aware of this, at least during the sale as some members here let them know.

 

Therefore I would refer both sides to eBay, as it is this kind of "fenced" sale what could get any of us in trouble if we are the unwary buyer.

 

I have said my bit and have notified eBay fully. Sadly, as has been said before, there is a significant amount of dodgy stuff on eBay and they are not known for being hugely proactive about it. There isn't much more I can do and would prefer it if the matter were dropped now.

 

Sorry peeps

 

B.

[+sssss]

i have to say that i agree with moote, once they realised it was stolen, by continuing to sell they come into the realms of handling stolen goods.

 

the original 'thief' whilst we as cachers leave them in the wild they commit 'theft by finding' and if there is a way to track the others involved in the chain then it needs to be done.

 

it may be a nominal value coin, but theft is theft, and where do you set the limits? it needs to be reported, and needs to be done via the police as per ebay policy http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/stolen.html have a chat with your safer neighbourhood team to get the ball rolling.

[+Bear and Ragged]

I remember previously when the TB's were for sale on ebay, and things got... 'a little heated'.

 

Maybe we need a locked thread, easily found by newer forum users -and the not so new- where, as has been suggested, that someone from here will bid/make contact, so we don't bid against each other, or show too much interest in the item/s.

 

No-one else should communicate in the matter until a conclusion is reached.

 

It seems to me that the 'older' forum members realised this was happening from the thread, but not the 'newer' ones...

 

The forum, and thread can be found without too much difficulty, by anyone selling a coin or TB.

We do need to be aware of the fact -and take care in what we say here...

 

My 2d worth

 

G

[+fat bloke]

What a shame...

 

However, I'm really pleased you're able to see it for what it is and not get too hung up on it!

Sorry it get my goat it's your coin and IT HAS BEEN STOLEN AND SOLD!

That is the problem (As I go to all areas It' scuzzi! situation) and LAW ABIDING PEOPLE can't do anything as you WOULD BE AS BAD AS THEM!

I Have had dealings with the law and if you are honest FORGET IT your insured just get a number and claim

BUT IT's that feeling when your the person that has been?(WRONGED) it makes you BITTER!

DRILLS STOLEN,TOOLS STOLEN, IT HAS TO STOP £200 drill sold for a tenner (actually a rap)(DRUGS)

 

NOT HAPPY

MARTIN

[+Lost in Space]

 

Sorry it get my goat it's your coin and IT HAS BEEN STOLEN AND SOLD!

 

 

How can one claim it has been "stolen", when you have left it in a public place and then published the co-ordinates of where to find it on the WORLD WIDE web?

 

[+fat bloke]

 

Sorry it get my goat it's your coin and IT HAS BEEN STOLEN AND SOLD!

 

 

How can one claim it has been "stolen", when you have left it in a public place and then published the co-ordinates of where to find it on the WORLD WIDE web?

 

Can you get it back for FREE!

[+fat bloke]

 

Sorry it get my goat it's your coin and IT HAS BEEN STOLEN AND SOLD!

 

 

How can one claim it has been "stolen", when you have left it in a public place and then published the co-ordinates of where to find it on the WORLD WIDE web?

 

PS QUOTE THE FULL POST!

[+Von-Horst]

 

How can one claim it has been "stolen", when you have left it in a public place and then published the co-ordinates of where to find it on the WORLD WIDE web?

 

 

The same way that someone who takes your car from a car park is stealing it .

 

Just because an item is not actually physically in your possesion does not stop you having legal title (ownership) of that item.

[+fat bloke]

 

How can one claim it has been "stolen", when you have left it in a public place and then published the co-ordinates of where to find it on the WORLD WIDE web?

 

 

The same way that someone who takes your car from a car park is stealing it .

 

Just because an item is not actually physically in your possesion does not stop you having legal title (ownership) of that item.

Thanks, I wish I was that eliquent

[Izzy and the Lizard King]

OK read your comment, and took a quick rain check on the legal side of this.

 

The coin legally belongs to you, and has been sold without your authorization.

 

This makes both the Seller and the Purchasers criminals as handling stolen goods is an offense.

 

It does appear that the seller might have been aware of this, at least during the sale as some members here let them know.

 

Therefore I would refer both sides to eBay, as it is this kind of "fenced" sale what could get any of us in trouble if we are the unwary buyer.

 

I have said my bit and have notified eBay fully. Sadly, as has been said before, there is a significant amount of dodgy stuff on eBay and they are not known for being hugely proactive about it. There isn't much more I can do and would prefer it if the matter were dropped now.

 

Sorry peeps

 

B.

 

i have to say that i agree with moote, once they realised it was stolen, by continuing to sell they come into the realms of handling stolen goods.

 

the original 'thief' whilst we as cachers leave them in the wild they commit 'theft by finding' and if there is a way to track the others involved in the chain then it needs to be done.

 

it may be a nominal value coin, but theft is theft, and where do you set the limits? it needs to be reported, and needs to be done via the police as per ebay policy http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/stolen.html have a chat with your safer neighbourhood team to get the ball rolling.

 

As you have said ebay don't seem to be too proactive in pursuing this type of thing taking place on their site. Why should they? They're making profit out of every sale and purchase!

For the sake of good customer service they put a 'get-out' clause in their T&C basically stating it's a legal matter to be dealt with by the judicial departments of the country concerned in the transaction.

 

It is necessary that people who knowingly take part in criminal activities are bought to justice and at the very least make significant reparation to the injured party.

 

You, Bambi&Thumper, have taken quite a gracious approach to the whole affair and why not? You have stated that at the end of the the day 'it's only a lump of metal'. I'm sorry but why should ebay get off so easily? Why should anyone benefit from illegal transactions of any kind?

 

None of us are perfect! When anyone KNOWINGLY breaks the law they should be punished.

 

If I park my car in a quiet lane, leave it parked legally, I expect to return and find it (several weeks later) in the same condition that I left it. Even if, in the mean time, I put it's location on a social networking site. It is still mine!

 

Somewhat curtailed but that's my point!

[+JeremyR]

I'm kinda reluctant to weigh in on this thread because I'm pretty sure it's just going to descend into but...

 

To be perfectly honest, the way this was going to turn out was pretty obvious to me from the start. Threads are viewed by far more people than post in them - the last thread on this subject was viewed over three thousand times. While most are responsible and act with respect for others, there is a minority amongst that group who will take matters into their own hands (e.g. those who sent evidently inappropriate emails to the high-bidder and seller). It's hardly surprising they got angry - they were engaging in a sale and all of a sudden they were being bombarded with emails from people they don't know, telling them what to do.

 

Maybe it would be better (more likely to result in a successful outcome) if these types of matters were dealt with off the forum? Perhaps there should be just one or two nominated people to help with these problems privately when they come up...

 

Just my £0.02...

[Izzy and the Lizard King]

I'm kinda reluctant to weigh in on this thread because I'm pretty sure it's just going to descend into but...

 

To be perfectly honest, the way this was going to turn out was pretty obvious to me from the start. Threads are viewed by far more people than post in them - the last thread on this subject was viewed over three thousand times. While most are responsible and act with respect for others, there is a minority amongst that group who will take matters into their own hands (e.g. those who sent evidently inappropriate emails to the high-bidder and seller). It's hardly surprising they got angry - they were engaging in a sale and all of a sudden they were being bombarded with emails from people they don't know, telling them what to do.

 

Maybe it would be better (more likely to result in a successful outcome) if these types of matters were dealt with off the forum? Perhaps there should be just one or two nominated people to help with these problems privately when they come up...

 

Just my £0.02...

Well said that man.

[Izzy and the Lizard King]

Sorry.

 

Doubled post

Edited December 20, 2007 by Izzy and the Lizard King

[+Renegade Knight]

This is a problem I've kept at the back of my mind for some time. Thus far all solutions are time inensive. Your solution highlights how much time. Checking a coin for 'clear title' means checking all the coins in a collection you have purchased. That means plugging each one in the tracking sites and seeing of the owner is different than the one that sold it to you. Then following up and asking why.

 

It's not so much from the seller side that I'm thinking, merely, when someone finds one of these coins on eBay and suspects that it is an activated traveller, they post to the GeoCoin/local forum and say, "This coin is for sale and person X has been notified and is informing the seller/bidders and negotiating. Please DO NOT contact them independently." And then person X (a sensible representative who deals with all these occurences) posts a summary once dealings have come to a close.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

B.

Ok, from the user side it's another thing. It would help to speak with a more official voice and to not have 10,000 different emails bombarding the folks.

[nobby.nobbs]

I'd agree that , in future a ban on threads of this nature should be in place.

 

If this matter happens again (when) there should be a pinned thread to direct the person to a person(s) who will do all the contacting and discussion.

 

On an aside are there any actual criminal lawyers amongst us who can actually sort out the legality of the situation? From past experience I would believe that the person who muggles the cache and takes a coin commits "theft by finding" as they have appropriated property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it.

Thereby all other people are POTENTIALLY handling stolen goods after that event. Some belief is required for that offence.

But just because I think that is the case does not mean that it would stand up in court, not that we really want to try to go that far, hopefully a much better ,calmer approach in future might get better results.

[The Royles]

I certainly will not be getting involved again.

 

Some people here must have read my first post on the original thread and decided that they knew better.

[+mousekakat]

 

Thread here

[+pklong]

 

Thread here

 

Did you have to pay extra for that personalised tracking number

 

Geocoins cost us a lot more this side of the pond.

[ljay]

Just to add my 0.02p.

 

I did air my opinion on the other thread, i'm not going to look for the original quites but i do remember that someone asked that we (and by we i mean the collective readers) did not take matters in to their own hands. ie don't contact the seller or harras the bidders. a geocache member was at that stage bidding on the item.

The positive outcome from the first thread was that the owner was able to be worked out and contacted via the original designer of the coin.

The negitive outcome is that the seller and buyer have been p'ed off by people bombarding them with e-mails. and i'd be p'ed with that too.

We were asked not to contact the seller and let the bidding geocacher deal with it. That should have been done.

[+mousekakat]

 

Thread here

 

Did you have to pay extra for that personalised tracking number

 

Geocoins cost us a lot more this side of the pond.

 

I'm on the same side of the pond as you are ... unless they've moved Sweden!

 

I just thought the coin and the sentiment on it was appropriate

 

Naomi

[+Alibags]

I think it would be a good idea if somebody higher up the food chain than me, from Groundspeak or perhaps a UK representative, opened up a dialogue with Ebay on the subject of the selling of TBs and geocoins that did not belong to the seller (whether we label them as stolen, lost property or mis-appropriated). They could perhaps formulate some policy which could be applied in future cases?

 

BTW, why would anybody want to collect coins that did not belong to them and they could never release and possibly not re-sell? If I was B&T I would put a note on my coin page saying 'this coin was stolen'. The new 'owner' could never edit or control the coin's page. It's not as if they have a great dela of inherent monetary value, not matter how pretty and shiney they are.

 

Finally, a third thought: Perhaps we people encourage cachers to run a check on any coin that's for sale, for which they doubt the provenance. If the coin is already activated, the seller should be able to provide the ID code without the tracking number, naturally, and they can check with the registered owner as to whether the coin is legitimately for sale. I suspect that we would do this anyway, if we knew the coin was already activated. I also think that if I purchased a coin that turned out to be owned by somebody else I would contact EBay about it myself.

Edited December 20, 2007 by Alibags

[+Von-Horst]

 

BTW, why would anybody want to collect coins that did not belong to them and they could never release and possibly not re-sell?

 

 

Looking at the buyer's feedback it looks like he/she bought it becuase it is a shiny and pretty thing with Celtic swirls on it, presumably for use as a keyring.

[markandlynn]

Theres an inference here that the thread readers and the emailers to ebay are the same people

 

Its just as likely its non forum users sending the emails.

 

As for collectors of things there are certainly collectors out there with complete sets of jeeps in thier possession no chance of those being re sold.

[The Royles]

Theres an inference here that the thread readers and the emailers to ebay are the same people

 

Its just as likely its non forum users sending the emails.

 

As for collectors of things there are certainly collectors out there with complete sets of jeeps in thier possession no chance of those being re sold.

 

You are right, I did make that assumption.

 

I based on the fact that some people on the last thread said they had contacted the seller.

[+Dorsetgal & GeoDog]

It's a sad situation, and I hope it doesn't form a precedent for such acts

 

I watched, did nothing and waited and as soon as the owner of the coin was established didn't even visit the ebay page again as I wasn't sure if repeat visits notch up the counter or not and didn't want the seller to think there was more interest.

 

It is of course pefrectly feasible that some who wrote to the seller might not even be geocachers or viewers of this forum. I suspect that ordinary coin sellers may well be aware of geocoins from seeing them onsale at times, and curiosity pushing them to see what it is all about.

 

I do agree though that someone should co-ordinate contacts in future, however there's no certainty that the same thing might happen again if those who made some of the contacts didn't know about the forum and the arrangement if it were made.

[+Lost in Space]

There is a recent topic about whether people take geocaching too seriously.

 

My own opinion is that this subject falls into that category. You buy a "Coin", "Bug", whatever, put it in a publicly notified location, hoping somebody, (another geocacher), will take it. (What did you pay? - A couple of gallons of petrol at the most)

 

Having "requested", by publishing where to find it on the Internet, somebody to take it, how can you complain about what they do with it?

 

In answer to previous respondents:

 

"My car is in Stevenage Sainsbury's car park, the keys are located at Nxx.xx.xxx, Wyy.yy.yyy, only honest Geocachers take it..........." - Not much of a legal defence.

[+Von-Horst]

There is a recent topic about whether people take geocaching too seriously.

 

My own opinion is that this subject falls into that category. You buy a "Coin", "Bug", whatever, put it in a publicly notified location, hoping somebody, (another geocacher), will take it. (What did you pay? - A couple of gallons of petrol at the most)

 

Having "requested", by publishing where to find it on the Internet, somebody to take it, how can you complain about what they do with it?

 

In answer to previous respondents:

 

"My car is in Stevenage Sainsbury's car park, the keys are located at Nxx.xx.xxx, Wyy.yy.yyy, only honest Geocachers take it..........." - Not much of a legal defence.

 

Can I have a tenner to buy a couple of gallons of petrol then?

 

PM me and I'll let you have my PayPal address...

[+Lost in Space]

Another thought:-

 

If one is so paranoid as to having ones TB/Coin "stolen", try asking an insurance company about getting it insured - after you tell them of the "risk" profile.

[+Von-Horst]

I guess that's a no then!

[+Lost in Space]

I guess that's a no then!

 

I think you are straying off the subject........

 

[Deceangi]

Please keep on topic, the OP seeing as the original one had to be closed specifically asked if it would be ok to update everyone from her side of things.

[+Von-Horst]

I guess that's a no then!

 

I think you are straying off the subject........

 

 

Not really.

 

You stated that you feel that the value of a Geocoin is inconsequential.

 

I merely took the opportunity to call your bluff and ask you back up your opinion.

 

You also decided to have a dig at those who have expressed concern and anger over the fact that someone knowingly sold a stolen geocoin even though the owner offered (as I understand it) to pay for its return but I don't really know how to respond to that without being told off by the moderators.

[+jerryo]

Surely the term we need here is not "stolen", which is being bandied around here rather a lot; the word we all seem to be missing is the one that was invented for such occasions: muggled. And it won’t stand up in court I’d guess. Better to take the pragmatic stance of the coin's owners and let it drop.

[wolfshead57]

Muggled coins may make us angry but EBays attitude to the sales is the real problem. Loads of stuff is sold on there that is a lot worse than a muggled coin.

I dont mean to run down the owners feelings or other cachers feelings on the loss of a coin a loss of a bright shiney object is just that. Its upsetting, its even enough to make you angry that folk who dont play our game are spoiling it for others but just remember it isnt a life that has been lost its a lump of shiney metal.

 

What i found heartening by all this was there was a bunch of folk who may or may not know each other, but who tried to do the right thing. They tried to get this coin back and reunited to the rightful owners. That folks is something worth thinking about. Someone and a Internet company did something wrong, but people out there did something good even if they failed in purchasing the coin they won in the end because they tried to do the right thing and like it or not a moral victory was won.

 

Well done to all those who tried and to the owners who realised that it was only a shiney bit of metal, our game is better off because you are in it.

 

Happy Christmas to you all.

 

Wolfie

[+Renegade Knight]

...What i found heartening by all this was there was a bunch of folk who may or may not know each other, but who tried to do the right thing....

 

That's worth a lot.

[fraggle69]

Not reading the entire story, for what it's worth if it was my coin, I'd get the rozers round to kick down their doors and drag them out by the scruff, giving 'em a good kicking. As has been mentioned, if you're in possession, you're guilty of handling stolen goods. Isn't that even if you paid in good faith, you're still guilty as sin and will burn in hell.

Burning might sound a bit harsh, but it makes me happier about life when bad things happen.

 

FREE THE COIN

[Highland Geofairy]

Not reading the entire story, for what it's worth if it was my coin, I'd get the rozers round to kick down their doors and drag them out by the scruff, giving 'em a good kicking. As has been mentioned, if you're in possession, you're guilty of handling stolen goods. Isn't that even if you paid in good faith, you're still guilty as sin and will burn in hell.

Burning might sound a bit harsh, but it makes me happier about life when bad things happen.

 

FREE THE COIN

 

Just the very kind of attitude that alienates people and brings geocaching into disrepute and just not helpful.

 

I did contact the seller, and the bidders. I also got an extremely rude response from the second highest bidder, who happens to be listed on ebay as resident in Cumbria, what a coincidence, just where the seller happens to reside also.

 

My contact was polite and non-accusatory, I offered to trade for more coins which could be sold in place of this particular coin. The seller responded very politely after the auction had ended, he had indeed tried to cancel the auction, hence the cancelled bids, but this was within 12 hours of the auction ending. With valid bids the auction cannot be ended in this time frame.

 

I contacted the purchaser with an offer to trade for the coin with coins that could be sold legitimately, I received no response.

 

My conclusion, the seller made an attempt to end the auction, had that been possible I believe the coin could have been secured by a trade. Who would turn down an offer of more coins to sell for one that you don't want anyway. The buyer, I did not receive a reply from the buyer - he possibly had so many messages regarding the purchase that the content was not read - or, he really likes the item and wants to keep it, he does appear from his ebay profile to be a 'collector' of 'things'. I thought he might be tempted to trade it for more 'things'. Having paid £12 for it, plus postage I have to come to the conclusion that the buyer really wanted it.

 

Debates about the legality of who owns what regarding TB's and Coins has been going on ad nauseam on this and other forums. It just isn't worth getting so strung up about it, if you are not prepared to suffer the pain of the loss don't leave your coins in caches. As Geocachers we have the freedom to make that choice, having made it we must learn to live with the consequences.

 

Ebay will not enter into disputes on an item costing £10 or so, and neither will the police - they have more important things to be doing.

 

I end by wishing one and all a very happy Christmas and all good wishes for 2008, and unless you are the seller or the buyer - I don't believe there is much to add to this thread. The 'owner' has said what they needed to say and I am pleased that they feel the way they do about it.

[Lactodorum]

I end by wishing one and all a very happy Christmas and all good wishes for 2008, and unless you are the seller or the buyer - I don't believe there is much to add to this thread. The 'owner' has said what they needed to say and I am pleased that they feel the way they do about it.

And with that sentiment I think the time has come to draw a close to this particular discussion. Thanks for all the contributions.