DeLorme, now I'm curious

[+Seasoned Warrior]

I just got my Groundspeak weekly notification and the first thing I see is a plug for the DeLorme GPS PN-20. So being curious as to what won an award and why I went to the link. I'm reading about caching with the DeLorme and there is screen shot of a geocaching information system and I don't recognize the screen. It's cool, it has the topo and the aerial side by side. Then its got icons of the caches and that's cool. But what really caught my attention was the reference to caches on the right sidebar. Those are actual geocaches with obvious commercial ties, what gives? I thought that commercial geocaches were not allowed, or are they only allowed for those who have the big bucks and not us small business guys, you know kind of like that bank ad where the small businessman wants a loan but the banks only want big business???? Inquiring minds want to know!

[+tabulator32]

From the geocaching guidelines:

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services. If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial.

 

Some exceptions can be made. In these situations, permission can be given by Groundspeak. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first. If you do not have advance permission, your reviewer will refer you to Groundspeak.

[Keystone]

This will confirm that all the DeLorme Challenge caches are allowed under an exception made by Groundspeak. Just as the commercial cache guideline says!

[+Seasoned Warrior]

This will confirm that all the DeLorme Challenge caches are allowed under an exception made by Groundspeak. Just as the commercial cache guideline says!

 

Thank you both. That certainly clarifies the requirements and obviously since the DeLorme caches are not within the actual building that the business operates and do not specifically require contact with the personnel of the business it certainly fits. So the guidelines don't preclude placing a cache on a businesses premises with business information in the cache: I see.

[+Seasoned Warrior]

This will confirm that all the DeLorme Challenge caches are allowed under an exception made by Groundspeak. Just as the commercial cache guideline says!

 

Thank you both. That certainly clarifies the requirements and obviously since the DeLorme caches are not within the actual building that the business operates and do not specifically require contact with the personnel of the business it certainly fits. So the guidelines don't preclude placing a cache on a businesses premises with business information in the cache: I see.

 

Just thought of another quesiton, is the DeLorme website with the geocaching information on it a conduit for actual geocaches and therefore duplicates all the geocaches located on geocaching.com but for the DeLorme platform?

[+tabulator32]

This will confirm that all the DeLorme Challenge caches are allowed under an exception made by Groundspeak. Just as the commercial cache guideline says!

 

Thank you both. That certainly clarifies the requirements and obviously since the DeLorme caches are not within the actual building that the business operates and do not specifically require contact with the personnel of the business it certainly fits. So the guidelines don't preclude placing a cache on a businesses premises with business information in the cache: I see.

 

You should also be made aware of THIS guideline, found directly below the one pasted in my earlier message:

 

Caches that Solicit

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

In fact, perhaps you should just read the entire Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines

 

Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines

 

 

Having said that, eliminating the number of caches that are located on business property and, also, eliminating caches that have a burger or pizza coupon as a FTF prize WOULD eliminate a LOT of caches.

 

Edited December 14, 2007 by tabulator32

[Keystone]

This will confirm that all the DeLorme Challenge caches are allowed under an exception made by Groundspeak. Just as the commercial cache guideline says!

 

Thank you both. That certainly clarifies the requirements and obviously since the DeLorme caches are not within the actual building that the business operates and do not specifically require contact with the personnel of the business it certainly fits. So the guidelines don't preclude placing a cache on a businesses premises with business information in the cache: I see.

You are not understanding the Commercial Cache guideline correctly. A cache can be commercial without being inside the business and without requiring contact with employees. Those two situations are cited in the guidelines because they create a presumption that a cache is commercial.

 

Basically, assume that any cache description which promotes a business will require permission from Groundspeak. The DeLorme Challenge caches are an example where such permission has been granted.

[+KJcachers]

heck with all this talk...anybody tried that DeLorme GPS unit?

[+tabulator32]

See?! Now THAT's the spirit of commercialism!

 

[+robert]

Groundspeak can do as it wishes with advertising, but it doesn't mean I can. If they choose to promote a GPS in the weekly mailer or whatever, that's fine with me. Premium membership prices haven't changed, so at $30 it's a great deal. If those ads keep the membership at an affordable $30, I'll continue to be happy to receive them.

 

We're lucky, really. The ads on the Groundspeak sites are minimal (if you're a PM) compared to many others.

 

Kudos to Jeremy and the rest of the Groundspeak team for not inundating us with ads every step of the way.

 

[+palmetto]

Just thought of another quesiton, is the DeLorme website with the geocaching information on it a conduit for actual geocaches and therefore duplicates all the geocaches located on geocaching.com but for the DeLorme platform?

 

No, there is no "DeLorme website with the geocaching information" - they're sending you to Geocaching.com.

 

As cache pages with commercial content are the second commonest error I see when reviewing (the commonest is cache too near existing cache) I'd like to add some clarification.

 

You CAN place a hide in Joe's Burgers parking lot. The cache page CAN say, "cache placed with permission of business owner".

 

The cache can't be named Eat at Joe's. Short description, "This is our favorite eatery in <name of town>. We thought we'd share it with our fellow geocachers." Long description, "The <favorite food><Friday Night Special> is especially GREAT!!!!!! so stop in. And even if you aren't hungry, step inside and thank Joe for letting me place a cache here."

 

I see this cache, or something like it, several times a week. Various substitutions are possible (my favorite bike shop/outdoor gear place/produce stand etc). Commercial caches will not be listed without advance contact and arrangements with Groundspeak.

[+BiT]

heck with all this talk...anybody tried that DeLorme GPS unit?

 

I tried it for a less than a week and found it very slow. I returned and kept my Garmin Map60 CSx.

[tttedzeins]

Groundspeak can do as it wishes with advertising, but it doesn't mean I can. If they choose to promote a GPS in the weekly mailer or whatever, that's fine with me. Premium membership prices haven't changed, so at $30 it's a great deal. If those ads keep the membership at an affordable $30, I'll continue to be happy to receive them.

 

We're lucky, really. The ads on the Groundspeak sites are minimal (if you're a PM) compared to many others.

 

Kudos to Jeremy and the rest of the Groundspeak team for not inundating us with ads every step of the way.

 

 

What he said.

[+Renegade Knight]

This will confirm that all the DeLorme Challenge caches are allowed under an exception made by Groundspeak. Just as the commercial cache guideline says!

 

Backing this up a bit.

 

Delorme caches aren't so much commercial caches as they use a mapping tool to divide up a state into areas that allows a challenge cache to be placed. The goal being the challenge and not so much making you buy the map.

 

Because the Map book is a tool, it falls short of the normal commercial guideline. Because it means you have to buy the tool...it bumps into the commercial rule via the back door. Just not that hard.

 

You could also run a Quad Map Cache but Quad maps may use areas that are too small to make a reasonable challenge. The USGS moving most all of it's map sales to commercial outfits would create much the same issue even though USGS maps are government maps.

 

I'm not aware of another map product that does the same job of diving up a state into areas, and is widely available.

[+robert]

Because the Map book is a tool, it falls short of the normal commercial guideline. Because it means you have to buy the tool...it bumps into the commercial rule via the back door. Just not that hard.

If it were any map, that might be the case, but a DeLorme map makes it commercial. Using the company's name on the cache page makes it commercial. Just like a cache called "Dunkin Donuts" is commercial, even if you don't have to buy a donut (I just had one, so they're on my mind, and yes it's 12:40 here and I'm eating donuts)

[+trainlove]

When I completed the Massachusetts Delorme Challenge I did not use a Delorme Map that I do not own. I did not use the Delorme Topo software that I do own. I made a grid on some other Topo software packages that I do own and used that. One can sit at any Barnes and Nobles (oh there we go again at commercilization) for about 20 minutes with one of their maps and take good notes to use when programming up the grids. Or one can go to a library and give them $0.10 for a xerox (there I go again) of the back of a map book, and use that to take even better notes than plain paper.

 

Nobody needs to BUY anything to complete a DC. It's only as commercial as you want to make it.

 

Now I'm hungry and am going to get a Whopper at Wendies, oops.

Edited December 14, 2007 by trainlove

[+DocDiTTo]

Nobody needs to BUY anything to complete a DC. It's only as commercial as you want to make it.

 

Um, that's entirely false.

 

I completed the PA Delorme Challenge, and I can say with 100% certainty that you DO need to BUY a lot of GAS.

[+Renegade Knight]

When I completed the Massachusetts Delorme Challenge I did not use a Delorme Map that I do not own. I did not use the Delorme Topo software that I do own. I made a grid on some other Topo software packages that I do own and used that. One can sit at any Barnes and Nobles (oh there we go again at commercilization) for about 20 minutes with one of their maps and take good notes to use when programming up the grids. Or one can go to a library and give them $0.10 for a xerox (there I go again) of the back of a map book, and use that to take even better notes than plain paper.

 

Nobody needs to BUY anything to complete a DC. It's only as commercial as you want to make it.

 

Now I'm hungry and am going to get a Whopper at Wendies, oops.

Fair point. When the Idaho Delorme Challenge came out. Moun10bike already had a grid set up and he parsed my GPX file and that was that.

[+hydnsek]

Groundspeak can do as it wishes with advertising, but it doesn't mean I can. If they choose to promote a GPS in the weekly mailer or whatever, that's fine with me. Premium membership prices haven't changed, so at $30 it's a great deal. If those ads keep the membership at an affordable $30, I'll continue to be happy to receive them.

 

We're lucky, really. The ads on the Groundspeak sites are minimal (if you're a PM) compared to many others.

 

Kudos to Jeremy and the rest of the Groundspeak team for not inundating us with ads every step of the way.

 

 

What he said.

Double ditto.

[WashoeZephyr]

Nobody needs to BUY anything to complete a DC. It's only as commercial as you want to make it.

 

Um, that's entirely false.

 

I completed the PA Delorme Challenge, and I can say with 100% certainty that you DO need to BUY a lot of GAS.

I've never seen a Delorme book other than the Nevada one, just out of curiosity, how many grids are there in the PA book? I'm just curious if there is a huge difference from state to state?

[+DocDiTTo]

Nobody needs to BUY anything to complete a DC. It's only as commercial as you want to make it.

 

Um, that's entirely false.

 

I completed the PA Delorme Challenge, and I can say with 100% certainty that you DO need to BUY a lot of GAS.

I've never seen a Delorme book other than the Nevada one, just out of curiosity, how many grids are there in the PA book? I'm just curious if there is a huge difference from state to state?

 

Yes, there are differences. The larger states have a lot more grids. Pennsylvania has 69 grids. California and Texas probably have the most, although I don't know specifically how many. Delaware is a rather small state, so they combined it with Maryland to make both states one challenge.

[WashoeZephyr]

Nobody needs to BUY anything to complete a DC. It's only as commercial as you want to make it.

 

Um, that's entirely false.

 

I completed the PA Delorme Challenge, and I can say with 100% certainty that you DO need to BUY a lot of GAS.

I've never seen a Delorme book other than the Nevada one, just out of curiosity, how many grids are there in the PA book? I'm just curious if there is a huge difference from state to state?

 

Yes, there are differences. The larger states have a lot more grids. Pennsylvania has 69 grids. California and Texas probably have the most, although I don't know specifically how many. Delaware is a rather small state, so they combined it with Maryland to make both states one challenge.

I'm suprised PA has 69!, Nevada has 72. Our grids just cover a lot more area! California is split, there is a Northern and a Southern book. Although I've never physically looked at either one! I've only accomplished 12 grids of the Nevada book so far LOL! At least most of your grids are near some sort of civilization! Most of our grids are pretty isolated!

Edited December 15, 2007 by LostinReno

[+FamilyDNA]

Northern California has 103 grids. I don't know about Southern.

[+Seasoned Warrior]

Just thought of another quesiton, is the DeLorme website with the geocaching information on it a conduit for actual geocaches and therefore duplicates all the geocaches located on geocaching.com but for the DeLorme platform?

 

No, there is no "DeLorme website with the geocaching information" - they're sending you to Geocaching.com.

 

As cache pages with commercial content are the second commonest error I see when reviewing (the commonest is cache too near existing cache) I'd like to add some clarification.

 

You CAN place a hide in Joe's Burgers parking lot. The cache page CAN say, "cache placed with permission of business owner".

 

The cache can't be named Eat at Joe's. Short description, "This is our favorite eatery in <name of town>. We thought we'd share it with our fellow geocachers." Long description, "The <favorite food><Friday Night Special> is especially GREAT!!!!!! so stop in. And even if you aren't hungry, step inside and thank Joe for letting me place a cache here."

 

I see this cache, or something like it, several times a week. Various substitutions are possible (my favorite bike shop/outdoor gear place/produce stand etc). Commercial caches will not be listed without advance contact and arrangements with Groundspeak.

 

First of all the screen shot in the DeLorme ad is NOT of geocaching.com, it has a split screen with an aerial and a topo on it, I have never seen that on geocaching.com. If you look at the enlarged version it plainly states on its header that it is a DeLorme website for geocaches. I was curious if this was a conduit for geocaching information from geocaching.com since the additional information and graphics is far superior to that found on geocaching.com. Could someone please answer the question instead of reading in hidden intent that does not exist. Tell me that this screen shot is from geocaching.com

 

Secondly I have nothing against commercial sites. I am a successful business person myself, I was not complaining, I just wanted to clarify a point regarding commercial caches so that perhaps I might advertise if I so wish. I am all for commercialism and I imagine that the commercial aspects of the the geocaching site are what pays the bills, especially since the site supports a substantial number of free members, please note I am a paying member and I support commercialism and free enterprise wherever it occurs, even here. I just like to know the rules in case I want to play the commercial card also!

Edited December 15, 2007 by Seasoned Warrior

[+PhxChem]

If you look at the enlarged version it plainly states on its header that it is a DeLorme website for geocaches.

 

No, it's not from their website, it from Topo USA, a mapping program they sell. The data comes from Geocaching.com.....it is just displayed in a mapping program.

 

I was curious if this was a conduit for geocaching information from geocaching.com since the additional information and graphics is far superior to that found on Geocaching.com.

 

What additional information? The info on the page (aside from the maps) come from...you guessed it, Geocaching.com. The maps are "far superior" because Topo USA isn't free.

 

No conduit, no secret...just displaying Geocaching.com data. Other programs can do this too...

[+Michael]

Just thought of another quesiton, is the DeLorme website with the geocaching information on it a conduit for actual geocaches and therefore duplicates all the geocaches located on geocaching.com but for the DeLorme platform?

 

No, there is no "DeLorme website with the geocaching information" - they're sending you to Geocaching.com.

 

As cache pages with commercial content are the second commonest error I see when reviewing (the commonest is cache too near existing cache) I'd like to add some clarification.

 

You CAN place a hide in Joe's Burgers parking lot. The cache page CAN say, "cache placed with permission of business owner".

 

The cache can't be named Eat at Joe's. Short description, "This is our favorite eatery in <name of town>. We thought we'd share it with our fellow geocachers." Long description, "The <favorite food><Friday Night Special> is especially GREAT!!!!!! so stop in. And even if you aren't hungry, step inside and thank Joe for letting me place a cache here."

 

I see this cache, or something like it, several times a week. Various substitutions are possible (my favorite bike shop/outdoor gear place/produce stand etc). Commercial caches will not be listed without advance contact and arrangements with Groundspeak.

 

First of all the screen shot in the DeLorme ad is NOT of geocaching.com, it has a split screen with an aerial and a topo on it, I have never seen that on geocaching.com. If you look at the enlarged version it plainly states on its header that it is a DeLorme website for geocaches. I was curious if this was a conduit for geocaching information from geocaching.com since the additional information and graphics is far superior to that found on geocaching.com. Could someone please answer the question instead of reading in hidden intent that does not exist. Tell me that this screen shot is from geocaching.com

 

Secondly I have nothing against commercial sites. I am a successful business person myself, I was not complaining, I just wanted to clarify a point regarding commercial caches so that perhaps I might advertise if I so wish. I am all for commercialism and I imagine that the commercial aspects of the the geocaching site are what pays the bills, especially since the site supports a substantial number of free members, please note I am a paying member and I support commercialism and free enterprise wherever it occurs, even here. I just like to know the rules in case I want to play the commercial card also!

 

Here is what you need to know.

 

Commercial Caches

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services. If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial.

 

Some exceptions can be made. In these situations, permission can be given by Groundspeak. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first. If you do not have advance permission, your reviewer will refer you to Groundspeak.

 

The key points are in Bold. When you write to Groundspeak about a commercial cache your email starts at my desk. If you have a specific cache you would like to talk about feel free to write me.

[+tabulator32]

Cool! Now you have a specific point of contact when you are ready to put up some cache (pun intended) and do a little geo-tising.

[+robert]

When I completed the Massachusetts Delorme Challenge I did not use a Delorme Map that I do not own.

I wouldn't buy one for Massachusetts either. I'd just memorize where both grids are and go find the caches.

 

[+eagsc7]

When I completed the Massachusetts Delorme Challenge I did not use a Delorme Map that I do not own. I did not use the Delorme Topo software that I do own. I made a grid on some other Topo software packages that I do own and used that. One can sit at any Barnes and Nobles (oh there we go again at commercilization) for about 20 minutes with one of their maps and take good notes to use when programming up the grids. Or one can go to a library and give them $0.10 for a xerox (there I go again) of the back of a map book, and use that to take even better notes than plain paper.

 

Nobody needs to BUY anything to complete a DC. It's only as commercial as you want to make it.

 

Now I'm hungry and am going to get a Whopper at Wendies, oops.

Fair point. When the Idaho Delorme Challenge came out. Moun10bike already had a grid set up and he parsed my GPX file and that was that.

 

Achem... What Moun10bike Didn't say is that I had actually taken care of the Mapsource conversion... I only contacted him when I didn't have the other conversions. He took all the credit though. It took me 2 weeks to even Find a ID Delorme book... then another couple days to input the 'grid' into mapsource...

 

The Steaks

[+trainlove]

The grid maps that I used/created when doing the Mass Delorme Challenge used stupid Waypoints for the corners of each grid, and Routes to draw those lines. Odragon had informed me of other capabilities.

 

Since then I learned that GPX files can have tracks using <trkpt>. One of these days I'll upload a Garmin MapSource image to my 1 word log.

I have the track setup already but do not have all my finds (58+ required with extra credit and ~100 additional finds & multi bits and puzzle coords) in that time period.

But I really can't wait to do this for the MapTech Terrain Navigator I just got at a Salvation Army for 2 dollars, 18 CD's all New England and New York. Not sure if the image that I export will look nice.

[+geowizerd]

This will confirm that all the DeLorme Challenge caches are allowed under an exception made by Groundspeak. Just as the commercial cache guideline says!

 

And how many PN-20's did that cost them?!? Just kidding!

[+geowizerd]

Deleted due to server error

Edited December 17, 2007 by geowizerd