To hint or not to hint - a controversy

[+private bones]

Hello,

 

I would greatly appreciate some feedback on the using the optional "add a hint" feature. When I started placing caches I viewed this as a great "judgement call" feature that could be utilized by the cache owner based on the difficulty or other situational issues of the cache being placed. When I chose to add a hint I really gave it some thought, and did it for specific reasons:

 

1. The cache area had difficult signal reception making it an extremely tough or impossible find without a hint

2. The terrain or conditions were very difficult and after prolonged searching a hint might prevent a disappointing and frustrating experience

3. The cache location was in a a very public place where prolonged and "obvious" searching would create suspicious circumstances

 

In response, I have had a fair amount of log feedback and personal emails from cachers who seem to be irritated that a hint is not provided on every cache - even the 1 star terrain and 1 star level of difficulty.

 

I recently had an individual who apparently considers himself somewhat of a caching genius (and is rather intense about racking up those finds) post several inappropriate and very derogatory comments about a particular series of caches being "too easy". Then, he posted two DNF's on the same series with one complaining, in a not so courteous way, that the cache owner obviously needs to add a hint. (FYI, in the interest of maintaining subject appropriate, publicly non offensive and fair logs this person's original comments have been deleted. He has since reposted a more appropriate log for each cache).

 

On a different cache, another cacher wrote that he searched briefly and would come back when the owner posted a hint. I don't get it. Other cachers have made this find and some even said that it was quick and easy. Why would this person expect that a hint would be added later simply because he couldn't find it after a brief search? These are a couple of the more interesting "hint" complaints, but in general cachers really seem to expect hints regardless of the cache rating, location or intentional design.

 

So, I'm confused. I'm sensing from these comments that the challenge of the hunt, and the thrill of the find are becoming lost to the numbers of racking up "found" statistics. And, consequently, cache owners who are not "guaranteeing" a sure find with the use of the hint, are in the politically incorrect minority.

 

My feelings about this are that I put a lot of time, effort, and thought into designing caches, and if there is or is not a hint, it is a thoughtful decision that is part of the big picture. I try to place caches that are reasonable, achievable, and that cover a variety of terrain and skill levels of difficulty. There are many helpful aids and "hints" of a different nature in the cache descriptions. And, above all, it is my intention to provide a fun and fair caching experience. However, I don't think that every cache should be an immediate "use the hint", "gimme", "rack up the stats" guaranteed find. I would like to continue to place caches in that manner. However, if I am way off base here, I would like to hear your comments. Thanks!

Edited November 4, 2007 by private bones

[+TrailGators]

Hello,

 

I would greatly appreciate some feedback on the using the optional "add a hint" feature. When I started placing caches I viewed this as a great "judgement call" feature that could be utilized by the cache owner based on the difficulty or other situational issues of the cache being placed. When I chose to add a hint I really gave it some thought, and did it for specific reasons:

 

1. The cache area had difficult signal reception making it an extremely tough or impossible find without a hint

2. The terrain or conditions were very difficult and after prolonged searching a hint might prevent a disappointing and frustrating experience

3. The cache location was in a a very public place where prolonged and "obvious" searching would create suspicious circumstances

 

In response, I have had a fair amount of log feedback and personal emails from cachers who seem to be irritated that a hint is not provided on every cache - even the 1 star terrain and 1 star level of difficulty.

 

I recently had an individual who apparently considers himself somewhat of a caching genius (and is rather intense about racking up those finds) post several inappropriate and very derogatory comments about a particular series of caches being "too easy". Then, he posted two DNF's on the same series with one complaining, in a not so courteous way, that the cache owner obviously needs to add a hint. (FYI, in the interest of maintaining subject appropriate, publicly non offensive and fair logs this person's original comments have been deleted. He has since reposted a more appropriate log for each cache).

 

On a different cache, another cacher wrote that he searched briefly and would come back when the owner posted a hint. I don't get it. Other cachers have made this find and some even said that it was quick and easy. Why would this person expect that a hint would be added later simply because he couldn't find it after a brief search? These are a couple of the more interesting "hint" complaints, but in general cachers really seem to expect hints regardless of the cache rating, location or intentional design.

 

So, I'm confused. I'm sensing from these comments that the challenge of the hunt, and the thrill of the find are becoming lost to the stats of racking up "found" statistics. And, consequently, cache owners who are not "guaranteeing" a sure find with the use of the hint, are in the politically incorrect minority.

 

My feelings about this are that I put a lot of time, effort, and thought into designing caches, and if there is or is not a hint, it is a thoughtful decision that is part of the big picture. I try to place caches that are reasonable, achievable, and that cover a variety of terrain and skill levels of difficulty. There are many helpful aids and "hints" of a different nature in the cache descriptions. And, above all, it is my intention to provide a fun and fair caching experience. However, I don't think that every cache should be an immediate "use the hint", "gimme", "rack up the stats" guaranteed find. I would like to continue to place caches in that manner. However, if I am way off base here, I would like to hear your comments. Thanks!

Adding a hint is up to the cache owner. People can freely choose not to find caches that don't have a hint. Don't let whining sway your freedom to do what you want to do as the cache owner. I agree with you that the fun is the hunt! A lot of people would rather have the cache handed to them on a silver platter so they can get the number.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

To me a hint is part of the cache difficulty, if you want to be sure people find it give a spoiler (under the biggest rock), if you want it more difficult give less descriptive hints (under rock) or similar. If you want the find to be tougher give a cryptic hint or no hint at all, it's your hide, you decide how much info you want to give out. Seekers may ask for hints but you are in no way required to provide one if you do want to.

[+mertat]

Adding a hint is up to the cache owner. People can freely choose not to find caches that don't have a hint. Don't let whining sway your freedom to do what you want to do as the cache owner. I agree with you that the fun is the hunt! A lot of people would rather have the cache handed to them on a silver platter so they can get the number.

 

I totally agree with this. Hints are not required - it's up to the cache owner. Don't let the whiners get to you.

[+elmuyloco5]

To me, the only time a hint should be mandatory is for a large caching series that is intended to make people drive a great distance, such as the state challenges. Because of the nature of these type series, the "searcher" may only be able to travel to the cache once, and I feel it would be a shame to lose out on accomplishing a large series such as that because there wasn't a hint. We had to travel an extra 4 hours out of the way on one of our series trips because we had approached a semi difficult one in the middle of the night ( we happened to hit it at that particular time on our way to another state). There wasn't a hint, and after we went back for it, we could see why we needed the light of day to spot it. It was a bit of a pain, but we were lucky enough to be able to go back for it, not everyone would be able to do. Some of the caches we've went for in the series are over 8 hours away, one direction.

 

But, for the average cache, I don't think one is necessary. I think they are nice, and I appreciate them when I find I need one. I don't usually care for the "it's under a log on the south side of the building" kind of hints though. They're less of a hint and more of a "it's right there" sort of thing. On the other hand, the bizarre or snide hints that have nothing to do with the cache are a pain too. I'd rather just not have one at all than read "you don't need one". Those comments just seem a little snarky to me.

[AZcachemeister]

You have been doing it right, and should continue the same way.

I get annoyed when I can't find the cache, and especially so if others have!

If there is no hint, then there is no hint.

Many hiders around here only add hints when several seekers can't find the cache, and sometimes hints are only given to those who request them.

When a hint is appropriate, I like the ones that either eliminate the wrong places to look, or highlight the correct ones.

On the other hand, I detest encrypted hints that are totally useless (several previous threads on this subject).

[+JDandDD]

Just a slightly different take on this. I agree that its up to the cache owner to provide hints or not. However, as a cache owner, I would say that if I got the reactions the OP is getting it would tell me that one IS needed for those caches. It would imply to me that the cache is harder than I thought or the local community thinks this type of hide requires a hint. You do have to think of your fellow cachers and if they are trying to tell you something then you should listen.

JD

Edited November 4, 2007 by JDandDD

[+TrailGators]

Just a slightly different take on this. I agree that its up to the cache owner to provide hints or not. However, as a cache owner, I would say that if I got the reactions the OP is getting it would tell me that one IS needed for those caches. It would imply to me that the cache is harder than I thought or the local community thinks this type of hide requires a hint. You do have to think of your fellow cachers and if they are trying to tell you something then you should listen.

JD

He doesn't need a hint. He could raise the difficulty rating based on the feedback.

[+elmuyloco5]

He doesn't need a hint. He could raise the difficulty rating based on the feedback.

 

Certainly he could, but isn't the point to hiding the cache so others can find it? I'm sure I could go hide a "blinkie/ magento/whatever you want to call those little bitty things" out in the woods somewhere that it will never be found, but what would the point of that be? There's a fine line between a cache and litter. The cache is intended to be found. I'm not saying the cache owner should post a blinking sign near it, or give you photos that would lead you right to it. But, if no one is finding your cache, raising the difficulty level doesn't result in people finding it. There's a point at which a hint might need to be added to a cache, or waypoints, or some other options as some caches are affected by their environment. We have one ourselves that we have temporarily diabled for that very reason. Sure, we could up the difficulty, but we actually enjoy hearing that people found our cache.

[+TrailGators]

He doesn't need a hint. He could raise the difficulty rating based on the feedback.

Certainly he could, but isn't the point to hiding the cache so others can find it? I'm sure I could go hide a "blinkie/ magento/whatever you want to call those little bitty things" out in the woods somewhere that it will never be found, but what would the point of that be? There's a fine line between a cache and litter. The cache is intended to be found. I'm not saying the cache owner should post a blinking sign near it, or give you photos that would lead you right to it. But, if no one is finding your cache, raising the difficulty level doesn't result in people finding it. There's a point at which a hint might need to be added to a cache, or waypoints, or some other options as some caches are affected by their environment. We have one ourselves that we have temporarily diabled for that very reason. Sure, we could up the difficulty, but we actually enjoy hearing that people found our cache.

Show me where in the OPs post it that said "no one is finding his caches?"

 

If the owner is sure that the coords are correct and that the difficulty rating is correct, then there is no reason for people to badger him into adding a hint. A lot of people enjoy hiding and finding challenging caches!

Edited November 4, 2007 by TrailGators

[+elmuyloco5]

Show me where in the OPs post it that said "no one is finding his caches?"

 

If the owner is sure that the coords are correct and that the difficulty rating is correct, then there is no reason for people to badger him into adding a hint. A lot of people enjoy hiding challenging caches!

 

Didn't say that he did. It was a comment to you as to raising the difficulty level. It's not always a quick fix, or a good one. However, he did say that he had a fair amount of cachers who were upset that he didn't have a clue. What might be the best option is to increase the difficulty level, AND give a hint.

 

I don't think anyone should ever badger the cache owner, for any reason. I'm not in any way condoning rude behavior. I'm just simply stating that sometimes a hint is needed; hints can be good thing if done properly; and for some caches, if you want them to be found, a hint might be required.

 

Edited to add: There's nothing wrong with a good challenging cache. But there is a time to realize the difference between a good CHALLENGE and a cache that is difficult to find overall because of other reasons than that you can hide something well. And sometimes it just comes down to how many people you want to find your cache and how you want others to respond to your cache.

Edited November 4, 2007 by elmuyloco5

[+BlueDeuce]

Hints are completely discretionary.

 

We’re hiding caches not rose gardens.

[+TrailGators]

Show me where in the OPs post it that said "no one is finding his caches?"

 

If the owner is sure that the coords are correct and that the difficulty rating is correct, then there is no reason for people to badger him into adding a hint. A lot of people enjoy hiding challenging caches!

Didn't say that he did. It was a comment to you as to raising the difficulty level.

That makes no sense???? Anyhow, it would help if you stick to commenting on what the OP said and not bringing in other issues that were not brought up by the OP like caches that are never found. My comments were in regards to what the OP actually said. He is right about his feelings and should not feel pressure to add a hint.

[+cache_test_dummies]

But, if no one is finding your cache, raising the difficulty level doesn't result in people finding it.

Actually, it might. The more the stated difficulty level reflects the true difficulty of the cache, the more people are likely to hunt appropriately, thereby increasing the likelyhood of finds.

 

To the OP: providing a hint is completely at the discretion of the cache owner, even if people are having difficulty finding the cache.

[+elmuyloco5]

Show me where in the OPs post it that said "no one is finding his caches?"

 

If the owner is sure that the coords are correct and that the difficulty rating is correct, then there is no reason for people to badger him into adding a hint. A lot of people enjoy hiding challenging caches!

Didn't say that he did. It was a comment to you as to raising the difficulty level.

That makes no sense???? Anyhow, it would help if you stick to commenting on what the OP said and not bringing in other issues that were not brought up by the OP like caches that are never found. My comments were in regards to what the OP actually said. He is right about his feelings and should not feel pressure to add a hint.

 

It made perfect sense....you said to show you where the OP said no one was finding his caches.....I said that I never said no one was. I said IF no one is finding your cache...then...

 

And, my comments are on-topic. His post title is to the controversy of "to hint or not to hint". Nothing in my post was off that topic. Sorry if you didn't like my answer, but I have the right to my opinion. And, keeping within the topic of "to hint or not to hint" is within the guidelines of the site. I never said that he should feel pressure to add a hint, just reasons why he might consider doing so and why they might be a good idea. If you disagree, that's perfectly fine, but please understand that not everyone has to agree with you.

 

I would be happy to look up all the times you veer off topic completely on the forum....let's be fair to everyone, especially those who are following the "on-topic" guidelines.

[+TrailGators]

Show me where in the OPs post it that said "no one is finding his caches?"

 

If the owner is sure that the coords are correct and that the difficulty rating is correct, then there is no reason for people to badger him into adding a hint. A lot of people enjoy hiding challenging caches!

Didn't say that he did. It was a comment to you as to raising the difficulty level.

That makes no sense???? Anyhow, it would help if you stick to commenting on what the OP said and not bringing in other issues that were not brought up by the OP like caches that are never found. My comments were in regards to what the OP actually said. He is right about his feelings and should not feel pressure to add a hint.

It made perfect sense....you said to show you where the OP said no one was finding his caches.....I said that I never said no one was. I said IF no one is finding your cache...then...

It made no sense in the context of the OPs post. So you were saying that "if nobody was finding your cache then raising the difficulty wouldn't help." I'm not sure what that had to do with the OP's post because people are finding his caches. Therefore, raising the difficulty might make sense in this case. If nobody was finding one of his caches, I would recommend that he check the coordinates, and that he check that the cache is still there. A hint lowers the difficulty rating and lots of people want to have higher difficulty caches. So there are ways to achieve that.

[+private bones]

Show me where in the OPs post it that said "no one is finding his caches?"

 

If the owner is sure that the coords are correct and that the difficulty rating is correct, then there is no reason for people to badger him into adding a hint. A lot of people enjoy hiding challenging caches!

Didn't say that he did. It was a comment to you as to raising the difficulty level.

That makes no sense???? Anyhow, it would help if you stick to commenting on what the OP said and not bringing in other issues that were not brought up by the OP like caches that are never found. My comments were in regards to what the OP actually said. He is right about his feelings and should not feel pressure to add a hint.

It made perfect sense....you said to show you where the OP said no one was finding his caches.....I said that I never said no one was. I said IF no one is finding your cache...then...

It made no sense in the context of the OPs post. So you were saying that "if nobody was finding your cache then raising the difficulty wouldn't help." I'm not sure what that had to do with the OP's post because people are finding his caches. Therefore, raising the difficulty might make sense in this case. If nobody was finding one of his caches, I would recommend that he check the coordinates, and that he check that the cache is still there. A hint lowers the difficulty rating and lots of people want to have higher difficulty caches. So there are ways to achieve that.

 

Thanks to everyone so far that has offered advice. There have been several good points that I will factor into future cache placements.

 

Just for clarification, I do agree that if a specific cache was generating a large number of DNF logs, (and if the cache was checked and found to still be there), it would be a matter of listening to the voice of the community and either raising stars or giving a hint. Total agreement on that issue. However, to date, that has not been a problem. The issue, for me, has been the "attitude" that hint should provided at all times, and everyone should be able to walk from every cache with another " found it" notch under their belt, or else as a cache owner I have committed a grievous mistake. The examples I stated above were from different caches, all of which also have "found it", "easy find" or "quick find", posts.

 

I'm sure much of this discussion and subsequent decisions also comes from how each of us wants to approach the "seeking" part of this sport. For me, I really don't want to use a hint. I will use a hint, for example, in areas with dense redwood cover and no signal. But, using the hints always leaves me feeling like it is kind of an "empty" find, rather than really satisfying and well earned. I guess I'm not as concerned with the number of finds next to my name as I am with the experience. Quality, not quantity. That said, I do realize that everyone has different things that motivate them as geocachers, and this is simply my opinion.

 

Thanks again for all the good tips.

[+briansnat]

The issue, for me, has been the "attitude" that hint should provided at all times, and everyone should be able to walk from every cache with another " found it" notch under their belt, or else as a cache owner I have committed a grievous mistake. The examples I stated above were from different caches, all of which also have "found it", "easy find" or "quick find", posts.

 

The owner is under no obligation to provide a hint. I personally find it a bit annoying when I can't 1 or 1.5 star difficulty cache and there is no hint, but I'm not going to complain in my log about it. Higher difficulty caches, especially 4 or 5 probably shouldn't have a hint.

 

I place my caches to be found so I provide detailed hints most of the time. But what is right for me isn't necessarily right for every cache owner.

[+hukilaulau]

But, if no one is finding your cache, raising the difficulty level doesn't result in people finding it.

Actually, it might. The more the stated difficulty level reflects the true difficulty of the cache, the more people are likely to hunt appropriately, thereby increasing the likelyhood of finds.

 

That's true. A number of times when I've had trouble finding a cache, I"ve taken another look at the ratings and revised my search successfully. I only ask that if you're not giving a hint, at least make sure your coords are accurate.

[+IAOhana]

Just to chime in from a relative newbie. I like having either a hint or at least an idea of what I'm looking for. But I usually try to find the cache without the hint first, but will go to it if I need to.

[+MickieD]

Just to chime in from a relative newbie. I like having either a hint or at least an idea of what I'm looking for. But I usually try to find the cache without the hint first, but will go to it if I need to.

 

Me too. I am getting better at finding them w/out the hint. The g'kids ALWAYS spot them b4 I do, though. This weekend I asked them to not tell me when they found 'em so that I could enjoy the thrill of finding, too. The poor dears nearly burst blood vessels in their faces keeping quiet. It also meant fewer finds for the day.

 

Next weekend I won't put such a terrible strain on them. I'll be a nice Nana.

[+Too Tall John]

I have to agree with the majority of the posts: hints are completely optional. If the cache owner doesn't want to leave a hint, tough! I would like to suggest an aditional factor to be considered when deciding if you are going to place a hint:

When I chose to add a hint I really gave it some thought, and did it for specific reasons:

 

1. The cache area had difficult signal reception making it an extremely tough or impossible find without a hint

2. The terrain or conditions were very difficult and after prolonged searching a hint might prevent a disappointing and frustrating experience

3. The cache location was in a a very public place where prolonged and "obvious" searching would create suspicious circumstances

4. The surrounding area is sensitive and would possibly be damaged by a frustrated cacher expanding their search beyond the expected area.

[AZcachemeister]

I have to agree with the majority of the posts: hints are completely optional. If the cache owner doesn't want to leave a hint, tough! I would like to suggest an additional factor to be considered when deciding if you are going to place a hint:

When I chose to add a hint I really gave it some thought, and did it for specific reasons:

 

1. The cache area had difficult signal reception making it an extremely tough or impossible find without a hint

2. The terrain or conditions were very difficult and after prolonged searching a hint might prevent a disappointing and frustrating experience

3. The cache location was in a a very public place where prolonged and "obvious" searching would create suspicious circumstances

4. The surrounding area is sensitive and would possibly be damaged by a frustrated cacher expanding their search beyond the expected area.

 

A good point.

However, I have seen more than a few 'sensitive', and 'less than sensitive' areas taken apart by overzealous cache seekers, even though a helpful hint was included.

The naked apes will take apart everything in their path in an attempt to find what they are looking for.

[+Laserman]

Really quite simple, if you feel like leaving a hint go for it. If you don't want to leave a hint, then don't. The only time I ever get irritated by a hint is when the hint decrypts to reveal 'nohintneeded'. But even then I have a whatever kind of attitutude.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Laserman

[+VirginiaGator]

I can see both sides of the issue and have been on both sides as one searching. There's nothing more frustrating than to be somewhere a distance from home or in a city you're not particularly fond of, and you can't find the cache. Recently, I completed a puzzle, then checked for other caches near to the mystery cache. Even with a hint of the area to check, I still couldn't find the *&%(*#@)(&% micro in a tree. Nice while searching 60 miles or more from home. I have pretty much written off looking for this person's caches in the future. And when I e-mailed for a hint, I didn't get a response at all.

 

I do put hints on my hides so cachers don't have that frustration. It's up to them if they want to check the hint or not.

Edited November 5, 2007 by VirginiaGator

[+Rattlebars]

Hints are encrypted for a reason. It's a good idea to leave one. The finder can choose to use it or not. With the exception of one of my caches, I want my caches to be found not to confound. Often the hint is gentle carefully worded hint that has the cacher saying "AHA! That's what I thought it meant" when one arrives at the cache.

 

I hunt with a Dell Axim and GPXView. I look at the size and difficulty. If I can't find it in a reasonable time, I'll look at the description. If that's no help, I decrypt the hint. Still can't find it, check the logs.

 

Your methods probably differ, but I think a "fair" hint should be included. Remember, one has the choice of looking at it or not. Gas is not cheap and will only go up in the future as the dollar declines in value. Read in to that what you will.

 

Bear also in mind, lots of DNF's will have your cache put on many IGNORE lists.

[markandlynn]

We had to stop placing good hints due to one local cacher who was using google earth and the hint and mapping programs to determine final locations for caches etc, all our hints our now either not there until he / her / they have found the cache or are they deliberately obscure until you hit ground zero.

 

We use to like leaving clear hints for the final cache but now find we can not.

[+sataraid1]

We had to stop placing good hints due to one local cacher who was using google earth and the hint and mapping programs to determine final locations for caches etc, all our hints our now either not there until he / her / they have found the cache or are they deliberately obscure until you hit ground zero.

 

We use to like leaving clear hints for the final cache but now find we can not.

 

This is a complete non sequitur for me. How does using GE differ from using your GPS itself or a topo map? GE may give you a general idea of where a cache is located, but it's not detailed enough to show you that it's in one particular tree or fencepost or whatever.

 

Unless you're hiding your caches in the center of giant red "X" marks, GE isn't going to give away it's exact location.

 

Regarding the OP ... I agree with your hinting criteria completely. A serviceable hint will CYA if you post awful coordinates. If people find the cache, but note the coordinates are off, you can fix them. If you just get a string of DNFs, your cache will end up ignored by everyone.

[+Too Tall John]

How does using GE differ from using your GPS itself or a topo map? GE may give you a general idea of where a cache is located, but it's not detailed enough to show you that it's in one particular tree or fencepost or whatever.

GE, used in conjunction with a good hint, can lead you directly to the cache. My first caches I found w/out a GPSr using this exact method. The hint makes a huge difference in such a case. There are a number of people with a lot of hides who are "Naked Cachers." I'm not talking about caching sans clothes, but without the benifit of a GPSr. There is nothing wrong with it, IMO, and don't see why anyone would bother removing hints so that people couldn't do it.

 

Of course, like I said before, there are no rules, only guidelines, so if someone wants to do so, bully for them.

[+StarBrand]

While I understand that it is optional and should be kept that way - I also believe that hint should be included on most caches the exceptions should be rare circumstances.

 

Your hints need not be dead give-aways or obvious pointers. It is possible to give a subtle nudge. A hint can be used to exclude a spot or include an area that you might not have. It might simply give a clue as to the size of container.

 

I WANT my caches to be found. All of my caches are more about the location and the experience and the history then it is about the thrill of a hunt. So I include hints.

[+DanOCan]

Here's my take:

 

I normally put hints on my caches because I want people to find them. I know if I am looking for a cache and I can't find it I appreciate having a hint to help me out, especially if the cache is in a high visibility location or some other place that isn't pleasant to search. Good example: a micro outside a drive-thru window...coordinates are for a bush next to an electrical box. In a situation like that I'll actually decode the hint first to see if I can narrow the focus of my search to one or the other. If I can't it will likely end up as a DNA (did not attempt).

 

I figure if anyone is looking for one of my caches and they want the satisfaction of finding it without the hint there is no one holding a gun to their head forcing them to decode it.

 

In this area we also have to take into account that a cache that is very easy to find in the summer could be quite difficult to find when it is buried under snow. Again, since I actually want people to find my caches I don't see the harm in helping out people with things like "south side of the log" or such since it really shouldn't impact those who don't want the help.

 

I think if you are going to list a hint it needs to be useful though. Nothing worse than "No hint needed" or "too easy" or "tree" when you are standing in the forest. May as well leave the hint field blank and then those who don't have the luxury of having a PDA don't waste their time. In fact, I wish part of the cache review process would be for the approver to decode the hint and if it is one of those "You don't need a hint" hints they would request that the owner leave that field blank.

 

Anyway, that's my take.

[+Too Tall John]

Nothing worse than "No hint needed" or "too easy" or "tree" when you are standing in the forest. May as well leave the hint field blank and then those who don't have the luxury of having a PDA don't waste their time.

For those who don't have a PDA, there is one worse hint:

 

I typically cache paperless, but once recently I had a printed cache page. I sat down to decode the hint to find it read:

Bring a pencil.

How the heck do they think I was going to decode the hint? Not to mention if I had been paperless caching & decoded the hint in the field, it would have done me very little good if I hadn't thought to bring a writing implement.

 

Almost as bad are hints telling you where to park.

 

I'll take "No Hint" over either of those any day, but I agree, if that's your hint, don't bother.

[+DanOCan]

I typically cache paperless, but once recently I had a printed cache page. I sat down to decode the hint to find it read:

Bring a pencil.

How the heck do they think I was going to decode the hint? Not to mention if I had been paperless caching & decoded the hint in the field, it would have done me very little good if I hadn't thought to bring a writing implement.

 

I guess the only way that could be considered a useful hint is if the cache container was listed as a Unknown/Not Listed size and the owner figured that it would get you into a "hunting for a micro mode".

[+private bones]

Thanks again for your thoughts. This has really answered my questions, and has been very enlightening as to the individual expectations of each cache owner who has contributed to this topic.

 

There are a couple of comments that keep coming up that need clarification. First, my original post that started this thread was referring to a variety of caches, not one cache that was getting consistent DNF logs. Again, if that were to happen I would certainly take action. Which leads me to the next statement that has been posted several times "I WANT my caches to be found". Well, hey, ME TOO! Otherwise, why spend the time, effort and $$, to put caches out there?

 

But I don't want them to be found with the immediate help of a hint, or worse decrypted the night before. That just does not motivate me to be a creative hider. Seems like that should be called "hint abuse" . And yes, it is fairly easy to spot that in the logs. I have a couple of tough caches where I have given a hint to help out because, after 20-30 minutes of searching, there is a strong probability that a hint will be needed. So a log says " Quick and easy find, walked right up and made the grab", there is NO WAY, with the average cacher, on that particular cache it would be a quick and easy find without the immediate use of the hint (unless of course the previous cacher left it totally exposed to make it "easier" on the next cacher, but (sigh) I'm sure there has been many a thread about that).

 

That said, I have picked up some great hints from all of you on how to deal with the above situation. I like the ideas of increasing the difficulty rating if there is not a hint, or using a more difficult hint. But, not to worry, the end goal is still for people to find the cache, just not as a "gimme".

 

PB

[+private bones]

Thanks again for your thoughts. This has really answered my questions, and has been very enlightening as to the individual expectations of each cache owner who has contributed to this topic.

 

There are a couple of comments that keep coming up that need clarification. First, my original post that started this thread was referring to a variety of caches, not one cache that was getting consistent DNF logs. Again, if that were to happen I would certainly take action. Which leads me to the next statement that has been posted several times "I WANT my caches to be found". Well, hey, ME TOO! Otherwise, why spend the time, effort and $$, to put caches out there?

 

But I don't want them to be found with the immediate help of a hint, or worse decrypted the night before. That just does not motivate me to be a creative hider. Seems like that should be called "hint abuse" . And yes, it is fairly easy to spot that in the logs. I have a couple of tough caches where I have given a hint to help out because, after 20-30 minutes of searching, there is a strong probability that a hint will be needed. So a log says " Quick and easy find, walked right up and made the grab", there is NO WAY, with the average cacher, on that particular cache it would be a quick and easy find without the immediate use of the hint (unless of course the previous cacher left it totally exposed to make it "easier" on the next cacher, but (sigh) I'm sure there has been many a thread about that).

 

That said, I have picked up some great hints from all of you on how to deal with the above situation. I like the ideas of increasing the difficulty rating if there is not a hint, or using a more difficult hint. But, not to worry, the end goal is still for people to find the cache, just not as a "gimme".

 

PB

[+Stargazer22]

Hints are definitely helpful and fun if they are done right.

If they are done wrong, it takes all the fun out.

 

My pet peeve on hints, like many others, is the 'you don't need a hint' hint.

Anybody see the movie "A Christmas Story"? Ralphie decodes the Little Orphan Annie secret message only to discover that it's "a crummy commercial!"

 

That's how I feel about those kinds of hints. Putting something there for folks to decode only to discover it's totally useless is just wasting people's time. So please, for all cache owners, either leave a useful hint, or just don't leave a hint at all.

[+sataraid1]

I have a couple of tough caches where I have given a hint to help out because, after 20-30 minutes of searching, there is a strong probability that a hint will be needed. So a log says " Quick and easy find, walked right up and made the grab", there is NO WAY, with the average cacher, on that particular cache it would be a quick and easy find without the immediate use of the hint (unless of course the previous cacher left it totally exposed to make it "easier" on the next cacher, but (sigh) I'm sure there has been many a thread about that).

 

Don't assume, and don't oversell yourself. Sometimes, finders just get lucky, and the cache appears in front of them like magic. Especially if the coordinates are spot-on.

 

Luck trumps skill.

[+Too Tall John]

Anybody see the movie "A Christmas Story"? Ralphie decodes the Little Orphan Annie secret message only to discover that it's "a crummy commercial!"

 

That's how I feel about those kinds of hints.

 

Yes! I love it!

[+Jeep_Dog]

Hints are not required to submit a cache for review and/or approval for listing.

 

Pay no heed to those who whine about lack of hints. I agree it is best to leave a hint for those folks that would tear up turf in their scorched-earth-style of geocaching, but that is entirely up to your descretion and/or desires for the cache.

 

out of the 13 active caches (ack! I've archived many!), 11 do not have a hint, two have a hint. I've nary a word about lack of hints.

 

On the other hand, I like wordplay, and generally there's plenty of "hints" in the cache name and/or description of my caches. Folks seem respond favorably to this approach.

 

This practice comes from my habit of loading GC waypoints in my GPSr and running off without reading descriptions (yes, this can net some frustration at times, such as coordinates changed in a log and a description but not a requested coordinate change through the reviewers). Often, just taking the time to thumb down to the cache name itself is hint enough.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Do I think that every cache should have a hint? Nope. Only use give-away clues, if you want to make sure that everyone who looks finds your cache. I do have hints on almost all my caches, but some of the hints are very obtuse. And, some are dead give-aways. Dead Give-away hint. (Okay, so we have a strange sense of humor.)

Some of our caches, on the other fin, are meant to be a challenge. Sorry, ain't offering much help. I don't really care whether you find it or not! It's meant to be a challenge.

Of course, it's also true that our caches do not get a lot of finds. Only one cache-and-dash. Most will take you to places that we think are special. Some require hiking permits. We like them, and that's what counts.

[+Rattlebars]

We had to stop placing good hints due to one local cacher who was using google earth and the hint and mapping programs to determine final locations for caches etc, all our hints our now either not there until he / her / they have found the cache or are they deliberately obscure until you hit ground zero.

 

I can't see why that would give you pause and cause you not to leave hints. There are cachers who don't use GPS at all, but use "orienteering" to find caches.

[+simpjkee]

what you are doing is right.

 

it is purely up to the cache owner to add a hint if they want to. it sounds like the guy complaining of no hints is just frustrated that he can't find the cache.

 

just don't put under additional hints "e-mail me" or "no hint needed" or anything like that. Decrypting a hint to get a message like that is just unnecessary.

[+Scare Force One]

They are incrypted so if someone does not want to see the hint they dont have to. I usally print the info sheet and take it with me. If I cant find it I will decode the hint. It should be left up to the finder.

 

~.~Scare Force One

[markandlynn]

We had to stop placing good hints due to one local cacher who was using google earth and the hint and mapping programs to determine final locations for caches etc, all our hints our now either not there until he / her / they have found the cache or are they deliberately obscure until you hit ground zero.

 

I can't see why that would give you pause and cause you not to leave hints. There are cachers who don't use GPS at all, but use "orienteering" to find caches.

 

That i dont mind at all after finding a trad using google earth or with out a gps is a great feat as is finding any published cache in the manner it was placed or after it is published

 

You dont have the details about what was done and is done and im not going to disclose them

[+Too Tall John]

We had to stop placing good hints due to one local cacher who was using google earth and the hint and mapping programs to determine final locations for caches etc, all our hints our now either not there until he / her / they have found the cache or are they deliberately obscure until you hit ground zero.

I can't see why that would give you pause and cause you not to leave hints. There are cachers who don't use GPS at all, but use "orienteering" to find caches.

That i dont mind at all after finding a trad using google earth or with out a gps is a great feat as is finding any published cache in the manner it was placed or after it is published

 

You dont have the details about what was done and is done and im not going to disclose them

To use an example that you can give no details about to say why to do something seems... a bit odd.

 

More information would help people see your point. Right now it just looks obtuse.

 

Perhaps you are talking about a puzzle cache someone found a workaround for?

[+egami]

Hints are completely discretionary.

 

We’re hiding caches not rose gardens.

 

Pay him no attention...he is from Iowa...

[+Renegade Knight]

Hello,

 

I would greatly appreciate some feedback on the using the optional "add a hint" feature. ...

 

You said it. The hint is optional. Sometimes nice, but always optional. If you do use it, it should be a hint. Not "You don't need a hint".

 

Nowhere in the ratings for cache difficulty does it factor in the hint. "This cache is rated 5 without the hint but 4.5 with it".

[+Harriet the Spy]

We like them, and that's what counts.

 

I fully agree!! To offer a hint or not depends on what you like to see in your inbox. Do you like to see frownies with cachers calling you sneaky or smilies with a thanks for the cache. I discovered that I like my inbox to be full of success stories from happy cachers, so my caches have hints and are easy to find.

[+QuesterMark]

Just to chime in from a relative newbie. I like having either a hint or at least an idea of what I'm looking for. But I usually try to find the cache without the hint first, but will go to it if I need to.

 

Good! That's how I think it ought to be as well.

 

And while I'm typing, those of you that do hints should remember that some folks decode in the field, so the hints should be concise.

 

Those of you seeking--remember that just because you can't find it doesn't mean the hider did ANYTHING wrong.

[+QuesterMark]

 

Me too. I am getting better at finding them w/out the hint. The g'kids ALWAYS spot them b4 I do, though. This weekend I asked them to not tell me when they found 'em so that I could enjoy the thrill of finding, too. The poor dears nearly burst blood vessels in their faces keeping quiet. It also meant fewer finds for the day.

 

Next weekend I won't put such a terrible strain on them. I'll be a nice Nana.

 

Meh. Instead of being all that nice, go find one WITHOUT the kids, but don't log it. Then take them, and find it first.