muggle geocachers

[+Monterry]

I have an issue with geocachers who hunt in a group and do not bother to replace the caches properly.

We go to a lot of trouble to design and place our caches only to find them just dropped near the coord.

They are left in the open or not securely closed so that everything gets wet. We find that the "all about numbers" groups are not true geocachers, disrespectful and rude. If people did not go to the trouble of providing fun and interesting caches, where would be the fun in caching. ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO STOP THIS?? Some of these muggles also walk off with the TBs and they are never heard from again!!!!!!!

Edited July 23, 2007 by Monterry

[+BlueDeuce]

ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO STOP THIS??

 

The harder the cache the fewer lazy cachers.

[+Monterry]

ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO STOP THIS??

 

The harder the cache the fewer lazy cachers.

not so, I find the more genius the cache, the less likely muggle cachers take the time to replace properly.

[+BlueDeuce]

I didn't say more genius [sic].

[+Monterry]

I didn't say more genius [sic].

I do not see anything useful in this comment (sic)

[+Bill & Tammy]

I have an issue with geocachers who hunt in a group and do not bother to replace the caches properly.

We go to a lot of trouble to design and place our caches only to find them just dropped near the coord.

They are left in the open or not securely closed so that everything gets wet. We find that the "all about numbers" groups are not true geocachers, disrespectful and rude. If people did not go to the trouble of providing fun and interesting caches, where would be the fun in caching. ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO STOP THIS?? Some of these muggles also walk off with the TBs and they are never heard from again!!!!!!!

 

Whoa, so many issues here I don't really know where to begin. As far as caches not being replaced properly I don't think you can single out group cachers or "numbers" cachers, although it sounds like you are basing this on a bad experience you may have had.

 

People who "walk of with TB's" are a whole separate issue. Most are new folks that for whatever reason lost interest and dropped out of caching before they could place travel bugs they took back into a cache, although I imagine that they may have never educated themselves about TB's anyway and may have thought they were just another trinket (especially coins).

[+scavok]

I didn't say more genius [sic].

I do not see anything useful in this comment (sic)

 

Hey take a chilly pill

 

I think what he meant was that if the cache is harder to find (takes more time to find) then the "all about the numbers" groups will probably skip it over in favor of cache-n-dashes.

[+Eartha]

Moving to general topics.

[+simpjkee]

I have an issue with geocachers who hunt in a group and do not bother to replace the caches properly.

We go to a lot of trouble to design and place our caches only to find them just dropped near the coord.

They are left in the open or not securely closed so that everything gets wet.

 

At my first event cache a couple pointed out that this was an issue. since then i makesure things are closed properly

 

We find that the "all about numbers" groups are not true geocachers, disrespectful and rude. If people did not go to the trouble of providing fun and interesting caches, where would be the fun in caching.

 

I admit that I am an all about the numbers cacher. just look, i have 250 finds and have yet to place one. I thank those who have placed a cache. yet being a numbers cacher I am absolutely a true geocacher.

[jmacinta]

 

We find that the "all about numbers" groups are not true geocachers, disrespectful and rude. If people did not go to the trouble of providing fun and interesting caches, where would be the fun in caching.

 

I admit that I am an all about the numbers cacher. just look, i have 250 finds and have yet to place one. I thank those who have placed a cache. yet being a numbers cacher I am absolutely a true geocacher.

 

While I like my numbers to groooowwww.... part of ADDING to the game is hiding your own caches. It helps those whose caches helped your numbers grow, grow theirs too.

[Uberquandary]

List it as a multi or puzzle and make 'em project a few waypoints or do a few bearings. That'll weed out the lazy ones and make sure thoughtful people (or at least ones with a reasonable attention span) are those who find it.

[+StarBrand]

by definition - a geocacher cannot be a muggle

and a muggle cannot be a geocacher

 

Having said that - the few geocachers that do not properly rehide a cache cannot be generalized into number hounds or group cachers (not sure why your experience differs).

 

It happens, sometimes from weather or animal activity - sometimes from a careless cacher. All visitors after it happens will naturally assume the cache was meant to be placed there or hidden in that fashion (unless the listing indicates otherwise). So it is hard to trace back and find who or what the culprit was.

 

It is just life and not worth stressing over. Best you can do is ask nicely that cachers carefully rehide them. Thats what I do.

[+ranger family]

Fortunately in Adelaide Australia there are very few lazy cachers as nearly all of the cachers rehide caches really well, but the first cache that we had hidden had been reported as being easily spotted despite having checked on it only a few days previously & only one cacher had been there in the mean while. We checked this cachers logs & it appears that a number of caches had been either put back wrong or ending up being muggled as a result of not using enough stealth and or common sense in a highly trafficed area.

 

As for TBs we have had 2 go missing in recent months due to cachers with kids not watching what their kids were taking from the caches.

[+simpjkee]

 

We find that the "all about numbers" groups are not true geocachers, disrespectful and rude. If people did not go to the trouble of providing fun and interesting caches, where would be the fun in caching.

 

I admit that I am an all about the numbers cacher. just look, i have 250 finds and have yet to place one. I thank those who have placed a cache. yet being a numbers cacher I am absolutely a true geocacher.

 

While I like my numbers to groooowwww.... part of ADDING to the game is hiding your own caches. It helps those whose caches helped your numbers grow, grow theirs too.

 

i will place caches once i think of a placement worth bearing my name

[Mag Magician]

Monterry has brought up a very valid subject. I am curious whether this is a phenomenon strictly applying to just our area, or whether it is a global problem.

Recently, a spree occurred here where not only Monterry's caches, but mine and a few other owner's were hunted, logged, and either not replaced properly, or just tossed. Some of these were very ingenious level 3-4.5 caches which took the owners many hours of work to place, and it is disheartening to have to spend even more hours doing maintenance on all your caches just to re-hide or replace them.

[+chuckwagon101]

ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO STOP THIS??

 

The harder the cache the fewer lazy cachers.

 

 

Is that why all my "Big Pile Of Sticks" cache finds are aways wet???? .....

[+JustKeely]

In reading Monterry's original question, I think that it might be hard to stop that kind of behavior because we can't control everyone. I would just place a big note on your cache page asking people to make sure the cache is replaced carefully. I don't think this is a global problem, what you are asking about. In my experience, once I heard of a situation kind of like that in Austin. The owner of the cache location told us that there was a large group of cachers who came and moved stuff around all over and didn't put it back, and then were rude when they were caching. That cache was archived after I reported that problem to the cache owner and they went back to followup. Interestingly enough, there was no online logging from that group.

My friends and I might be considered people who cache in a group and people who are about the numbers. We like to go out together in a group of 2-4 and we like to power cache. We are very concerned with cache placement and quality, though, and make sure to put the cache back exactly where we found it and even do "light maintenance", like placing a dry log, etc. In my experience, it is not people like us who lose TBs or are careless with caches. We are very interested in TBs and fix them up and move them along.

To us, caching in a group offers companionship, is physically safer (since we are all women), is sometimes easier (because we help each other with the children), and is a fun bonding experience.

I haven't lost any TBs to cachers yet, but I have lost lost of coins out there. It seems to be the new cachers who go out, grab a TB or bug first time out, then disappear. Sometimes they have signed the log but not logged online. Sometimes the cache is muggled by persons unknown and the coins disappear.

[+briansnat]

There are a few prominent numbers runners who, after they breeze through an area, are followed by numerous complaints of caches being left out or not returned to their proper hiding place.

 

It's happened enough in different areas with these same people that I have to believe that there is something to it.

 

That said, they aren't the only ones who do it. Some people think they are being helpful to the next geocacher by leaving it exposed. Others are just too lazy to, or unable to put it back the right way.

 

What can you do about it? Nothing short of hiding in the bushes with a bullhorn and screaming "Caught ya" when you see somebody do it.

[+KBI]

Some people think they are being helpful to the next geocacher by leaving it exposed.

Huh. That possibility had never occurred to me, but I'll bet you're exactly right.

 

It might be the very same well-meaning yet poorly thought out impulse that leads people to email unrequested spoilers to people who log DNFs.

[+Kiwi Nomad]

I am sooo addicted to geocaching unfortunately no one else in my family shares my enthusiasim! So I read alot of cache pages and one day I noted that after a particular person found a cache there were regularly comments on the cache not being put back properly. If people make a note when they have done maintance patterns like this are easier to pick up then you have a better chance to do a quick check before it gets muggled. Not easy to do if you have lots of hides or long disstance to travel.

 

Ok not much you can do except ask people to be careful putting the cache back in the same place and covering it up.

[+Team Royal]

Thanks Monterry for starting this thread. I just recently lost another cache... to muggles, I'm not sure. Fortuneately, there are cachers out there that will find remains of a cache and place a temorary in it's place until it can be replaced with a more permenant cache. I have lost several caches and one travel bug since we started placing caches about 1 1/2 years ago. Two of these missing caches were well camoed and hidden ammo boxes. We spent good money for these! It would have been about 95% impossible for these caches to just get stumbled upon by young muggles... I am solidly in the opinion, that, if the caches would have been properly re-hidden after they were found, they would still be there. I now refuse to spend $15 - $20 for each ammo box if they are going to go missing regularly. The Dollar Store sells excellent caches... just dress em up with a bit O camo tape! Cache On!

[Uberquandary]

I now refuse to spend $15 - $20 for each ammo box if they are going to go missing regularly.

Canadian dollars, I assume? Still, ammo boxes cost $5 max down here. That's steep.

[Treasure Pirate]

Good topic, and so many reasons why caches are disturbed.

My leading theory on this points some blame at group-cachers that mean well in their bonding adventure, but dont' always follow through to replace the cache as found. I suspect that often the last person of the group to sign the log and replace the cache, is not the same person who first removed the cache from it's nice hiding spot. There's an inherent responsibility to that finder to assure the cache is adequately replaced.

I totally understand the desire to sign the log and quickly move on to the next one (if your thing is all about the numbers), but other group members are hastily trying not to get left in the dust, and are often remiss in their responsibilities.

[+Team Royal]

Yes Uberquandary, Canadian $$$. They are expensive here.

[+GPSTrucker]

It seems pretty rude to me to have the enjoyment of hunting a cache and then just leave it out in the open. I always replace the cache exactly like I found it and do what I can to remove any traces that I was ever there.

[+dark_onyx1982]

A general observation of mine is members only caches tend to be in better shape than public caches. I know there has been debate on here before about placing members only caches, but geocaching.com makes it an option and if someone decides to take advantage of it I say go for it. I like an idea i read on here before. Make the cache member sonly when you first place it, then after a while make it public. I think that is a fair compromise.

[+Monterry]

List it as a multi or puzzle and make 'em project a few waypoints or do a few bearings. That'll weed out the lazy ones and make sure thoughtful people (or at least ones with a reasonable attention span) are those who find it.

For StarBrand who quotes definitions: think about it. That was the irony of the title. They are the destroyers of their own game. As long as they have their fun (& numbers), they don`t really care about the next cacher.

Thanks to all who have responded to my query, I appreciate all the help and suggestions. We have over 50 hides now and find the maintenance time required after a numbers group to be too much. If cachers treat a cache as if it was their own, most problems would be eliminated. We could go caching instead of doing maintenance. A lot of our caches were just to visit new or interesting sites. We have now reverted to adding a greater challenge to the finds in order to keep away the ``lazy ones``.

Again, thanks to all and happy caching.

[yatesDELTA]

hi im 14 and have been caching with my dad, a mate and another mate, my sister and her mate

 

we have never had any problems and always make sure everything is put back properly and consideratly. whilst this seems to be a pretty bit group weve never all been out at once and im the only true cacher

 

however i am carefull who to go with. i wouldnt trake people who i odnt have the utmpost trust for and therefore i consider it to be helping to protect the quality of the caches.

 

i do understand that some groups may act iresponsibly. perhaps on the cache listings you should request the cache ios hidden EXACTLY as it was found (assuming you put it back where it should be) as when people use the sheets they shopuld obey this. and it not then they should think a cache could be spoilt for them one day.

 

perhaps we4 should all agree only to conbvert reasonable peopl;e into geocachers

 

as for cahces being muggled ive unfortunly been the person to discover this once in a local cache called didlly dum which was a multi and has been made a single due to the continual effort.

 

sorry bout the speeach yatesDELTA

[+mcrow]

My question is: How would you know that it was not just muggled opposed to being mishandled by a Geocacher?

[+TheSolisPirates]

As a fairly new geocacher, I'm still running into different types of containers and sometimes have to really watch to make sure I've closed them up right. I am very careful however to make sure I've rehidden them as they were.

 

Is it possible the people finding these caches don't understand how to properly close? or the importance of making sure they are closed?

[+Monterry]

As a fairly new geocacher, I'm still running into different types of containers and sometimes have to really watch to make sure I've closed them up right. I am very careful however to make sure I've rehidden them as they were.

 

Is it possible the people finding these caches don't understand how to properly close? or the importance of making sure they are closed?

I believe the "numbers" people must have met just about any type of cache possible. The "don't know how to reclose excuse does not work for me. I think it is still just a case of laziness and disrespect.

[+Driver Carries Cache]

I have an issue with geocachers who hunt in a group and do not bother to replace the caches properly.

We go to a lot of trouble to design and place our caches only to find them just dropped near the coord.

They are left in the open or not securely closed so that everything gets wet. We find that the "all about numbers" groups are not true geocachers, disrespectful and rude. If people did not go to the trouble of providing fun and interesting caches, where would be the fun in caching. ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO STOP THIS?? Some of these muggles also walk off with the TBs and they are never heard from again!!!!!!!

 

I'd figure a good approach would be not to alienate a whole segment of the Geocaching community with gross generalizations.

 

Rude people do rude things. They do them on the highway, they do them in line at the supermarket and they'll do them while Geocaching as well. You can't attribute those kind of actions to any group or segment of geocachers.

 

DCC

[+Bad_CRC]

In my experience lots of cachers don't replace the container properly. Once someone has found the cache, that's it for them, they are off to the next one... many don't consider or care how the experience is for the next cacher.

 

Is it numbers people, newbies, kids, certain personalities ...or a combination of a few people from all of these?

 

We have all been to caches where the previous finder didn't make even the slightest effort to re-cover or properly re-place the container. That's just a part of the game I think we all need to accept. I had one cache that was an ammo can next to a huge pile of sticks and covered with a large piece of bark... almost harder to not cover the container than it would be to cover. Every single maintenance visit, I found the cache sitting wide out in the open just a few feet from a well-used hiking trail. On the cache page I begged people to properly rehide the container in red letters, but that of course didn't change the situation.

 

I've seen plenty of ammo cans where the finder didn't understand the latch, so simply left it unlatched, or latched improperly so it was actually wide open... If it takes more than 2 or 3 seconds to figure out, many won't bother trying.

 

The solution is pretty clear, plan the cache placement in a manner that makes it nearly impossible to mess up the placement from a finder either being dumb or not caring... if not, you'll end up frustrated. A complicated placement or container is not going to last long

 

It's a game. All we can do is play the best way we can, and hope most others do the same.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

List it as a multi or puzzle and make 'em project a few waypoints or do a few bearings. That'll weed out the lazy ones and make sure thoughtful people (or at least ones with a reasonable attention span) are those who find it.

Yes, in general, the higher the Difficulty and Terrain challenges/ratings, and the addition of a puzle, riddle or ALR, and/or anything else which acts as a culling preselector, helps to weed out the bad apples. And, of course, listing the cache as a Premium member only or Platinum member only cache also helps by adding one more level of prescreening!

[+UncleJimbo]

I have an issue with geocachers who hunt in a group and do not bother to replace the caches properly.

We go to a lot of trouble to design and place our caches only to find them just dropped near the coord.

They are left in the open or not securely closed so that everything gets wet. We find that the "all about numbers" groups are not true geocachers, disrespectful and rude. If people did not go to the trouble of providing fun and interesting caches, where would be the fun in caching. ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO STOP THIS?? Some of these muggles also walk off with the TBs and they are never heard from again!!!!!!!

Don't place your cache "near" any other caches. These number chases tend to like to hit clusters of caches.

 

One thing that baffles me is how often I find a log book inside a zip-lock bag that is not sealed. Are people really this lazy that they cannot close a plastic baggie? I realize sometimes the bag is old and won't seal, but I am talking about perfectly close-able bags.

[+egami]

One thing that baffles me is how often I find a log book inside a zip-lock bag that is not sealed. Are people really this lazy that they cannot close a plastic baggie? I realize sometimes the bag is old and won't seal, but I am talking about perfectly close-able bags.

 

I don't know...it surprises me how many people don't flush toilets and don't wash their hands after using the restroom, so it's not a stretch to think many people are too...whatever...to close a zip-lock bag when done signing a log book.

[+Bad_CRC]

One thing that baffles me is how often I find a log book inside a zip-lock bag that is not sealed. Are people really this lazy that they cannot close a plastic baggie? I realize sometimes the bag is old and won't seal, but I am talking about perfectly close-able bags.

 

where have you seen a ziplock in a cache that didn't have a larger hole in the bottom than the top?

[+UncleJimbo]

One thing that baffles me is how often I find a log book inside a zip-lock bag that is not sealed. Are people really this lazy that they cannot close a plastic baggie? I realize sometimes the bag is old and won't seal, but I am talking about perfectly close-able bags.

where have you seen a ziplock in a cache that didn't have a larger hole in the bottom than the top?

Yeah, I see that a lot, too.

 

I have started carrying lots of replacement ziplock baggies in my geocaching pack. I probably should add a few replacement log books and pencils, too.

[+TeamGumbo]

I am a new geocacher, and I try to be meticulous in putting things back exactly as I find them.

 

There are times when I have to take the cache some distance away in order to sign the log or exchange items or whatever (either because of the terrain, or muggle presence or...), but what I usually do is leave my car keys at the exact spot that I found the cache.

 

The motivation to find my car keys is incalculable.

[+JohnnyVegas]

I think this is a problem when the cacher that finds the cache in the group is not the cacher that replaces the cache. When I am out with other cachers we make sure the person that found the cache is the one that returns the cache.

 

A bigger a problem I have had to deal with is when a cacher intentionally damages a cache if order to sign the log.

I had one cacher smash a cache of mine with a rock because he/she could not figure out how to open it.

I recently deleted a log by another cacher that damaged one of my caches because he could not figure how to retrieve the container.

I have even had ammo boxes stolen that chained and padlocked to trees in remote areas.

 

Like any pastime, there are slime balls that have no respect for others.

[+Airhead-kb]

.... but what I usually do is leave my car keys at the exact spot that I found the cache.

 

The motivation to find my car keys is incalculable.

Best idea I've heard in a long time.

[+egami]

Yeah, I see that a lot, too.

 

I have started carrying lots of replacement ziplock baggies in my geocaching pack. I probably should add a few replacement log books and pencils, too.

 

That's what we do...in fact, I keep a little zip lock with a log book and pencil in them ready to go. In my less than 30 caches found I've used one once already. I don't carry micro replacements though...not sure what people do for those logs.

[+sunburykids]

Back to the OP, we always try to replace more hidden than how found!

We also try to fix problems if they are apparent. To answer your question, there is nothing you can do to stop people from being rude.

[+joranda]

I guess I may be one of those "number runners" that you are talking about because I love to cache and when I'm out caching I go until I'm tired which makes for alot of caches. I always hide the caches as I found them even a little better sometimes. I do to others caches as I would like done to mine. I just think it is kind of rude to blame the way your cache is being rehide on all cachers who look for numbers in general. What would be next, a limit on the amount of caches you can log in a day?

[Mag Magician]

One thing that baffles me is how often I find a log book inside a zip-lock bag that is not sealed. Are people really this lazy that they cannot close a plastic baggie? I realize sometimes the bag is old and won't seal, but I am talking about perfectly close-able bags.

 

I just checked on one of my hides today. It is a regular Tupperware inside a 5 gallon pail. That makes two containers in one. The log was reported as being frozen and soaked. It turns out somebody actually took the Ziploc off the log and absconded with it.....Nowhere to be found. I sure hope the person responsible really needed a Ziploc to keep his/her sandwich fresh.

[+Bad_CRC]

I am a new geocacher, and I try to be meticulous in putting things back exactly as I find them.

 

There are times when I have to take the cache some distance away in order to sign the log or exchange items or whatever (either because of the terrain, or muggle presence or...), but what I usually do is leave my car keys at the exact spot that I found the cache.

 

The motivation to find my car keys is incalculable.

 

I think I visited a cache that you were at last summer.

 

there was a set of keys right near GZ. The kind with the chip, so the key is like 80 bucks to replace. I put them in an easy to see location and posted a cache log that they were found, but nobody claimed them. They had a superamerica gas tag attached to them though, so I went back and got them and brought them to superamerica since they could look up the person's name and get the keys back to them... but they had obviously been out in the mud for months.

[+larryc43230]

I just checked on one of my hides today. It is a regular Tupperware inside a 5 gallon pail. That makes two containers in one. The log was reported as being frozen and soaked. It turns out somebody actually took the Ziploc off the log and absconded with it.....Nowhere to be found. I sure hope the person responsible really needed a Ziploc to keep his/her sandwich fresh.

I was actually guilty of walking off with a Ziploc bag once. It was a really windy day, and when I took the log, which was in a Ziploc bag, out of the container, I stuffed the Ziploc into my jacket pocket to keep it from blowing away. I heard some muggles approaching, so I hurriedly finished signing the log, put the log (minus the bag ) back in the container, and walked away. When I got back to my car, I put my hand in the jacket pocket looking for something else and discovered the Ziploc bag. Drat.... Back I trudged to the cache, and between muggle visitations undid the "theft" I'd perpetrated.

 

If I'd driven away and not discovered the bag in my pocket until many miles later, I would probably have struggled with whether it was worth driving back and undoing the damage. Come to think of it, it might have been a challenge to remember just which cache the bag had even come from!

 

--Larry

[+Monterry]

 

We find that the "all about numbers" groups are not true geocachers, disrespectful and rude. If people did not go to the trouble of providing fun and interesting caches, where would be the fun in caching.

 

I admit that I am an all about the numbers cacher. just look, i have 250 finds and have yet to place one. I thank those who have placed a cache. yet being a numbers cacher I am absolutely a true geocacher.

 

While I like my numbers to groooowwww.... part of ADDING to the game is hiding your own caches. It helps those whose caches helped your numbers grow, grow theirs too.

We have set ourselves a goal of 10%. We place 1 cache for every ten found. In that way, we feel we give back to the sport.

i will place caches once i think of a placement worth bearing my name

[+The Jester]

I just checked on one of my hides today. It is a regular Tupperware inside a 5 gallon pail. That makes two containers in one. The log was reported as being frozen and soaked. It turns out somebody actually took the Ziploc off the log and absconded with it.....Nowhere to be found. I sure hope the person responsible really needed a Ziploc to keep his/her sandwich fresh.

I was actually guilty of walking off with a Ziploc bag once. It was a really windy day, and when I took the log, which was in a Ziploc bag, out of the container, I stuffed the Ziploc into my jacket pocket to keep it from blowing away. I heard some muggles approaching, so I hurriedly finished signing the log, put the log (minus the bag ) back in the container, and walked away. When I got back to my car, I put my hand in the jacket pocket looking for something else and discovered the Ziploc bag. Drat.... Back I trudged to the cache, and between muggle visitations undid the "theft" I'd perpetrated.

 

If I'd driven away and not discovered the bag in my pocket until many miles later, I would probably have struggled with whether it was worth driving back and undoing the damage. Come to think of it, it might have been a challenge to remember just which cache the bag had even come from!

 

--Larry

I did that once myself - but the logbook was still in the ziploc! So off I went, the half mile back to the cache to replace the bag (and logbook).

[+geowizerd]

I am a new geocacher, and I try to be meticulous in putting things back exactly as I find them.

 

There are times when I have to take the cache some distance away in order to sign the log or exchange items or whatever (either because of the terrain, or muggle presence or...), but what I usually do is leave my car keys at the exact spot that I found the cache.

 

The motivation to find my car keys is incalculable.

 

I kind of do the opposite. I hide my keys near my car before starting down the trail for the cache. Then I don't have to worry about them dropping out of my coat pocket somewhere along the way. (I hate a bunch of keys in my pants pockets).

 

As for "hiding it better than it was", I don't agree with that. If the cache owner set it up as a 1.5 difficulty, did you just make it a 2.5, whether he likes it or not? Unless it is obvious that the previous finder just left it out in the open, which is a different scenario altogether.