Dealing with less than accurate coords...

[+skysensor]

Question about logging etiquette from a newbie:

 

Went out for a half dozen today, and a few of the finds were far enough off from the posted coordinates (on my GPSr, averaged for at least 100 readings) to be somewhat problematic. In one case, the posted coordinates would have put me about 50 feet into a private parcel (had to cross a fence).

 

My question: FOR REGULAR CACHES ONLY (where the published coordinates are in fact supposed to be the target location), is it acceptable to include in the log the "found at" coordinates indicated on my GPSr? The variance could be the owner's problem, or my problem, or both; I just wonder if the info wouldn't be helpful to other cachers.

 

Opinions?

 

Thanks.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

It depends. If it's a large enough difference I've posted logs stating something like "Found 85 feet from posted coordinates with GPSr showing 20 foot error.

If several logs show that then I might consider posting what my GPSr read. Just realize before hand that some cache owners won't care, some will be grateful and some won't like it at all. Do what you think you should but always be nice about it.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Wel, there will always be difulgaties, or so I am told. "I have 30 feet of accuracy. S/He hd 30 feet of accuracy." So sixty feet off is considered acceptable. (Though I have my doubts.)

Some people deliberately put their coords off. Others don't check carefully enough before posting coordinates. Most of these would not take kindly to being corrected. I had one log deleted for mentioning that I dound the coords to be 170 feet off!

There are older caches, from when GPSr units were less accurate, where you will find 'coordinates where I found the cache.' And for these caches, corrections are useful.

For most newer caches 'Coords were 60' off' will suffice to warn the cache owner that there mght be a problem, and to warn seekers that there might be a coordinate problem. A good cache owner will take this into consideration, and check the coords if it happens frequently.

I suspect that very few cache owners would appreciate you listing the coordinates at which you found the cache.

[+gnbrotz]

Sure. Jeremy and crew found there was enough of a need/demand for this that they added it as a 'feature'.

 

From the log entry screen, check the "Add a waypoint to the log" box. This will re-load the page and provide custom fields for your coords so you don't have to include them in the regular text portion of your log if you don't want to.

[+Harriet the Spy]

If I am FTF and the coords are off I usually post mine as a courtesy to future finders. If it is an existing hide then it depends on the owner. If the owner is known to be resposible then I usually send a quick email or if I am friendly with them I lightheartedly flog them in my log. But then there are other cachers who no matter how often people post new cords for a cache they won't update it. Then posting new cords become incredibly helpful to your fellow cachers because after 5 logs the new cords get bumped from cachemate.

[+rdaines]

Why do we assume that the cache owner is the one in error, could not the finder be the one who is off? In any case, if my cache coordinates were off by more than 30 feet I'd appreciate some feedback about it I won't care if people logged them for all to see. I place my caches with the intent that I want people to find them and the other way around.

[+skysensor]

Why do we assume that the cache owner is the one in error, could not the finder be the one who is off?

 

If you read my post carefully, you'll understand that I know the possibilities include variance at my receiver, variance at the owner's receiver, or both (with both being most likely). I ask the question specifically because other logs for these caches indicate that there may be a problem with the published coordinates.

 

The "safe" approach would be to keep mum and say TFTC. I just thought posting info regarding the indicated coordinates I found (in the scenario described) might be helpful to others yet to find the cache, not to mention the cache owner.

[+Isonzo Karst]

If coords seem to be off by 40+ feet, I'll say something like, "found cache somewhat south of posted coords". Rarely I'll use the "add waypoint" to post some coords. If I've used waypoints posted by others I try to ALWAYS repost them as an added waypoint, so they're back at the top of the page for other cachers to notice. Sometimes a cache with bad coords goes on an on without the owner correcting. We found a micro in the woods coord off 70+ feet, only because someone posted their coords. I reposted.

[+The Jester]

I've also posted corrections to multi/puzzle caches when the final was way off, using a "found it .xxx N/S and .xxx E/W of final". That way you're not giving anything away. As both finder and hider of caches I see not problem with posting your co-ords to the page.

[+Knight2000]

I never thought about this. I cant imagine why someone would delete a log because you added a waypoint.

 

In the past, if the GPS shows me at about 50' off or more - i have added a waypoint. I have appreciated others logs that have done this when the coords i have seem to be off.

 

One we were looking for this week had coords showing in the middle of an intersection. I plugged in coords from the log of a previous person who had a similar problem and it seemed to help.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Why do we assume that the cache owner is the one in error, could not the finder be the one who is off?

 

People probably won't even look at the finder's coords unless they can't get it with the hider's coords. There's no reason why a person should not list their own coordinates for a found cache. The true location of a traditional cache should be no secret. Now, the manner of hiding is another matter.

[+skysensor]

Sure. Jeremy and crew found there was enough of a need/demand for this that they added it as a 'feature'.

 

From the log entry screen, check the "Add a waypoint to the log" box. This will re-load the page and provide custom fields for your coords so you don't have to include them in the regular text portion of your log if you don't want to.

 

I wondered what that checkbox did...

 

Now help a newbie: How does anyone see the waypoints added by others in this manner? By download only? I've been manually entering coords (no downloads).

 

Thanks.

[+briansnat]

I never thought about this. I cant imagine why someone would delete a log because you added a waypoint.

 

Some knuckleheads deliberately post bad coords to make it harder. I assume those people woudn't appreciate

corrected coordinates in logs.

 

Personally I won't even mention coordinates being off unless they are more than 60 or 70 feet off.

 

Now help a newbie: How does anyone see the waypoints added by others in this manner? By download only? I've been manually entering coords (no downloads).

 

As a cache owner, I'm fine if someobody adds their coords to the log if they think mine are off. It could be helpful to others. Not sure what you mean by "download only". They have to be entered manually.

[+skysensor]

What I mean is: I don't see added waypoints on the cache pages, even for caches where I added waypoints. What do I have to do to see added waypoints? I'm sure it's probably painfully obvious, but if there's a link or something, I haven't found it.

[+rdaines]

Here's a paraphrase of a log I saw, "GPS had me going in the wrong direction at first but we found it". Huh? Not sure if I'd trust updated coordinates from this GPS and let's not forget a weather, geographic features, leaves and bird configuration affecting "position". A challenging cache in Sedona had great GPS signal right to the very end when you where now in a canyon for the last few hundred feet. I would dare send the owner a "your coordinated were off" email.

[+CSpenceFLY]

There is one in my area that almost everyone that logged it has mentioned the coords being off.The owner has done nothing. I send him an e-mail when it was first placed telling him what I had found.He sent me one back asking if I had the correct coords. I had not written them down.This owner has had plenty of time to fix the error.

 

End of rant.

[+rdaines]

There is one in my area that almost everyone that logged it has mentioned the coords being off.The owner has done nothing. I send him an e-mail when it was first placed telling him what I had found.He sent me one back asking if I had the correct coords. I had not written them down.This owner has had plenty of time to fix the error.

 

End of rant.

 

Sounds like a lot of people found it anyway, how many DNFs? I'm thinking it may not be a big deal. Maybe the placer has an old GPS that is not differential or WAAS, maybe it tracks only 8 satellites....... so on. Is the idea not to think about the hide, just follow the GPS until it says "open your eyes and look down"? To be fair, in this quoted case a significant error may be the owners fault, I don't know but are we getting to anal about coordinates?

[Trinity's Crew]

I have seen MANY logs that list alternate coordinates. Unless the owner intentionally posted inaccurate coordinates (and knucklehead is right, Brian) I doubt many people would object to you mentioning different coordinates in your log. I also agree with the 60+ foot error as a benchmark for mentioning a possible error in the coordinates.

[+gnbrotz]

What I mean is: I don't see added waypoints on the cache pages, even for caches where I added waypoints. What do I have to do to see added waypoints? I'm sure it's probably painfully obvious, but if there's a link or something, I haven't found it.

 

They appear as part of your log entry. You won't know about them unless you actually view the log or get it electronically via a PQ. The coordinates you enter do not become the new 'listed' coordinates for the cache. Someone who grabs the posted coords and goes out the door without reading the cache page will have no clue that corrected coords exist for a cache.

[+skysensor]

What I mean is: I don't see added waypoints on the cache pages, even for caches where I added waypoints. What do I have to do to see added waypoints? I'm sure it's probably painfully obvious, but if there's a link or something, I haven't found it.

 

They appear as part of your log entry. You won't know about them unless you actually view the log or get it electronically via a PQ. The coordinates you enter do not become the new 'listed' coordinates for the cache. Someone who grabs the posted coords and goes out the door without reading the cache page will have no clue that corrected coords exist for a cache.

 

Thanks. Now I see where they appear. I'm not yet a premium member (waiting for a GPSr upgrade), and I've done no downloading. Am I correctly interpreting your comment to mean that a PQ includes log entries?

[+gnbrotz]

That's correct. The PQ contains all of the cache page info: difficulty, terrain, description, hint, etc; and, the last five logs. It does not contain a map image or any images in the cache description or posted by those who logged the cache.

[+The Jester]

That's correct. The PQ contains all of the cache page info: difficulty, terrain, description, hint, etc; and, the last five logs. It does not contain a map image or any images in the cache description or posted by those who logged the cache.

It does contain a link to the images. So a program like GSAK can show them WHILE you are connected to the internet.

[widgit]

Newby here! It is frustrating to look and look and still not find anything, resulting in a DNF. :D My best friend, on a hunt, is my GPS unit. Imagine how frustrating when I come away empty handed because the coords were off and my gps unit right on. Especially since most of the cache sites in my area are in an area high in muggles and micro hides.

 

Thanks to everyone that provides accurate coords when available.

[+geomann1]

Bad coordinates is definitely one of my biggest pet peeves. Extremely frustrating to spend time searching in the wrong area and it defeats the purpose of geocaching. Granted there is an inherent error with GPS so coords may not be dead one, but hiders should be careful. I always spend a bit to time when I place a cache to check in the field, by walking away a few times and then seeing if the GPS lead me back to the cache and then by checking on Google Earth.

 

I would note in the log that coordinates are off and direction.

 

Most cache owners would be glad to be informed if there is a problem, particularly if it is confirmed by a few loggers.

[Dinoprophet]

When I do it (rarely; I haven't come across many that were that far off), I don't phrase the log to assume the hider is at fault. I'll say that my GPS was showing the posted coordinates. Either one of us could be wrong.

 

That said, when I see a cache that has several such logs, the finders' coords have so far always been better.

[+edscott]

When I find coordinates to be off by a lot.. 50 ft...100ft... whatever is significent for the area, I'll simply say the map and the GPS disagree by x meters.... perhaps add the direction. I imagine most cachers ignore my note since I state the data is from a map and aerial photo and not a GPS, but those that know me get some useful data.

[+TrailGators]

I really appreciate when people post alternate coords. They have helped me find many a cache. I've never heard of someone purposely posting wrong coords for a non-mystery cache. If I did I would ignore all their caches.

[+FamilyDNA]

I really appreciate when people post alternate coords. They have helped me find many a cache. I've never heard of someone purposely posting wrong coords for a non-mystery cache. If I did I would ignore all their caches.

I guess you've never run across one like this.

[crawil]

Went out for a half dozen today, and a few of the finds were far enough off from the posted coordinates (on my GPSr, averaged for at least 100 readings) to be somewhat problematic. In one case, the posted coordinates would have put me about 50 feet into a private parcel (had to cross a fence).

The OP stated that out of 6, a few were off. I would start to either suspect the OP's GPSr or maybe bad satellite conditions for that particular day. I can't imagine that of 6 caches, "a few" of them had coords that far off.

 

I see a pattern developing . . .

[+Ed & Julie]

 

There are older caches, from when GPSr units were less accurate, where you will find 'coordinates where I found the cache.' And for these caches, corrections are useful.

 

I don't think it is because GPSr units were not as accurate, but older caches tend to migrate after many finds.

[+DanOCan]

I have added waypoints to my log when I felt there was a significant error in the coordinates or if the cache has moved over time. I have benefited from when others have done the same and I think any owner who objects to such a practice needs to give their head a good shake.

[+Miragee]

I really appreciate when people post alternate coords. They have helped me find many a cache. I've never heard of someone purposely posting wrong coords for a non-mystery cache. If I did I would ignore all their caches.

I guess you've never run across one like this.

If that cache was down here I think I would send off a little note to my friendly Reviewer to get the coords updated.

 

When I was traveling to Death Valley a while back, there were a few caches listed as "Traditionals" that really should have had a "Multi" designation, or a "Puzzle" designation, because the caches were not at the listed coordinates. That was very frustrating . . . It sounds like that cache is frustrating as well . . .

[+Vanillahip]

I had one find where the coords were over 65 feet off, and it was DNF'd by several experienced cachers. One of us finally expanded the search pattern far enough to find it and posted the coords. Then a rash of finds occured using the new coords. What I thought was a very tricky hide was just bad coords. Very disappointing. They were so off that I bookmarked the cache and I send an email to all DNF's telling them to check the early logs for "good" coords. (Owner has had a year to update.) I don't feel bad about doing it either..for awhile I just was an idiot only to find out bad coords cost me 2 hours of my life.

[+Night Stalker]

Worst case of coordinates being off was a full size cache that we found that was more than 1/2 a mile off. It wasn't even in the same valley. The only reason we found it was because a previous finder had posted corrected coordinates. Now I have to ask myself how the original finder actually came across the cache. I don't have the patience to search and a 1/2 mile plus cicle until I find a cache.

[+TrailGators]

Worst case of coordinates being off was a full size cache that we found that was more than 1/2 a mile off. It wasn't even in the same valley. The only reason we found it was because a previous finder had posted corrected coordinates. Now I have to ask myself how the original finder actually came across the cache. I don't have the patience to search and a 1/2 mile plus cicle until I find a cache.

My worst case was 4 miles off. The mystery cache was up in Yucca Valley and we drove all day in the high desert to go to all the projected waypoints. We made it to the spot where the final should have been about 30 minutes before dark and obviously came up empty. I later emailed the owner with our numbers and he admitted that he messed up on of the projections by 180 degrees. Mistakes can happen but we posted what happened on our DNF and he deleted our logs. What a jerk...

[luvwad.]

ya know i think thats half the fun thought...if it told me 100% correctly...then how fun is that...i get ya thought ive been way off but when i get in the right area i try to put down my gps and just think if i hid this where would i hid it....i usually find a place that would be better then where they hid it but eh.

[+TrailGators]

ya know i think thats half the fun thought...if it told me 100% correctly...then how fun is that...i get ya thought ive been way off but when i get in the right area i try to put down my gps and just think if i hid this where would i hid it....i usually find a place that would be better then where they hid it but eh.

If the coords are dead on you still have a 30-40 foot circle to search.....