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Was I being rude?


QSparrow
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I posted a DNF today here.

 

I got this reply from the owner:

 

'Think of the most obvious spot..or do you need me to spell it out for

you...if its not in the hole of the plant then get a better gps..coords

were right on when everyone else found it so stop making excuses and

deal with the DNF...the hint is perfect and doesn't need changed nor does

the difficulty...now if its not there thats one thing and ill check it

out tomorrow but if it is then really the rude email was not called

for."

 

I'm new to this and I thought one of the purposes of a DNF was to provide feedback to the owner. The log entry before mine said that the hint does not apply right now. After posting this I looked at all the other responses, and many people said that the coords pointed down the hill. Also, I had done a terrain=1 cache earlier in the day that was on par with what I thought I was supposed to be doing here, so that's why I thought maybe the rating was wrong.

 

Was I being rude?

 

EDIT: Here is my original log entry. I changed it based on advice below.

 

"We spent quite a bit of time all over the hill on this one. Hard to get a good GPS reading with all the tree cover, and the ground is carpeted with a thick layer of pine needles so the hint could apply to literally anywhere. Very steep hill (and slippery with all those pine needles) and I nearly went all the way down a couple of times. How about a hint we can use? Or else bump both the difficulty and terrain on this one. (Or else maybe the coordinates are off? Two trips to this site both sent us down the hill by more than a little.)"

Edited by QSparrow
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I can see where the owner could have taken your log as rude, but then again it's hard to understand tone of voice, inflection, or diction, in written word. Don't take his reply personal and you'll be okay.

 

If his hint applies then I'd say it's okay, even if it's not a spoiler hint. They're not required to be. He's decided to only give a tiny bit of help so that's all you get.

 

I'd agree that his terrain rating is too low. A one star should be able to be accessed by someone in a wheelchair and from the log descriptions this one isn't.

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I don't know that you were rude, but I can see how from the tone of your log someone who is thin skinned might take offense.

 

For example instead of "How about a hint we can use?" try something like, "We decrypted the hint, but we still couldn't find it".

 

That gets across that the hint was not helpful without making the cache owner feel like you are being critical.

Edited by briansnat
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I posted a DNF today here.

 

I got this reply from the owner:

 

'Think of the most obvious spot..or do you need me to spell it out for

you...if its not in the hole of the plant then get a better gps..coords

were right on when everyone else found it so stop making excuses and

deal with the DNF...the hint is perfect and doesn't need changed nor does

the difficulty...now if its not there thats one thing and ill check it

out tomorrow but if it is then really the rude email was not called

for."

 

I'm new to this and I thought one of the purposes of a DNF was to provide feedback to the owner. Was I being rude?

The trouble with typed communication is it's hard to convey tone. I think the owner of the cache took offense to something you typed even though you meant no harm. Personally I would not appreciate being talked to in such a way. On the bright side at least they replied. Recently I posted a DNF and 2 others behind me did the same and I never heard anything after a week. The 2 behind me were veteran cachers with many caches under their belts so I knew it was a stolen cache..

 

Ray

Edited by raybonz
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Uh...I think you both were a little curt. Well actually, he way over reacted to your slightly curt message. But that's just the way I read it. Seasoned vets don't like advise from us rookies either. And maybe he was having a real bad day. Like maybe his house burned down. Or maybe his wife left him for another woman. Or maybe he's a farmer, and he slipped in the pasture and wound up on all four, and the bull just finished with him. It's all hard to tell from a post. Best thing to do is blow it off, and don't cry about anything anybody says in a forum. X

puppyape.jpg

Edited by X-isle
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I can see where the owner could have taken your log as rude, but then again it's hard to understand tone of voice, inflection, or diction, in written word. Don't take his reply personal and you'll be okay.

 

If his hint applies then I'd say it's okay, even if it's not a spoiler hint. They're not required to be. He's decided to only give a tiny bit of help so that's all you get.

 

I'd agree that his terrain rating is too low. A one star should be able to be accessed by someone in a wheelchair and from the log descriptions this one isn't.

 

Agreed.

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I concur with Mushtang. While you may not have intended to sound a bit, umm, short, it certainly could have been construed as such.

 

Written communication can be tricky that way - the reader doesn't necessarily know the frame of mind you were in. To me you sounded frustrated - and the owner may have been sensitive about that.

 

BTW - I hear you on the pine needles - I fell flat on my face about 2 weeks go, trying to scramble up the other side of a concrete drainage ditch after a cache that must have been muggled (several DNFs...), going up the other side I hit the pine straw and I slid back and went down like a ton of bricks!!

 

If you feel your log was misconstrued, you may wish to rephrase it and/or send a note to the owner with an apology for the miscommunication, but tactfully reiterate your point. That's likely what I'd do...

 

Jenn

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Thanks everyone for the help!!!

 

If you feel your log was misconstrued, you may wish to rephrase it and/or send a note to the owner with an apology for the miscommunication, but tactfully reiterate your point. That's likely what I'd do...

 

Jenn

I apologized, very simple, and replaced the log entry. I figured I'd probably cause more trouble if I reiterated my point.

If his hint applies then I'd say it's okay, even if it's not a spoiler hint. They're not required to be. He's decided to only give a tiny bit of help so that's all you get.

Log entry before mine said that the hint does not apply.

Edited by QSparrow
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Thanks everyone for the help!!!

 

If you feel your log was misconstrued, you may wish to rephrase it and/or send a note to the owner with an apology for the miscommunication, but tactfully reiterate your point. That's likely what I'd do...

 

Jenn

I apologized, very simple, and replaced the log entry. I figured I'd probably cause more trouble if I reiterated my point.

 

Don't be afraid in the future of writing descriptive DNF logs. They are helpful to both the cache owner and other geocachers and can make for some fun reading for the rest of us. Just try paint yourself as the reason for your failure rather than place blame on the cache owner.

 

On rare occasions it may be necessary to be blunt, for example if there are some significant dangers that aren't mentioned on the page, or there are obvious guideline violations, but I doubt you'll see that very often.

Edited by briansnat
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On rare occasions it may be necessary to be blunt, for example if there are some significant dangers that aren't mentioned on the page, ...

And that's why I was so descriptive. I really did nearly go tumbling down a steep hill and I didn't want that to happen to someone else.

Edited by QSparrow
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I didn't think it was rude at all. People need to thicken their skin a little and stop wanting everyone to conform to their way of posting. It is YOUR post not the owners post. Tell them to deal with it. Just be warned. In this area a few owners delete logs if they don't like what you write, so it is bound to happen to you at some point as well.

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After reading the logs of the ones that found the cache in question.It seems the ones mentioning the coords were not right on.I myself have not found any cache that the coords were right on.If I get within 50 feet I forget about the GPS and rely on my geo sences.I have walked away with some DNF.Maybe I need a new GPS that will have the coords right on.

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"We spent quite a bit of time all over the hill on this one. Hard to get a good GPS reading with all the tree cover, and the ground is carpeted with a thick layer of pine needles so the hint could apply to literally anywhere. Very steep hill (and slippery with all those pine needles) and I nearly went all the way down a couple of times. How about a hint we can use? Or else bump both the difficulty and terrain on this one. (Or else maybe the coordinates are off? Two trips to this site both sent us down the hill by more than a little.)"

 

Nothing wrong with that log at all.

Since the cache is rated as wheelchair accessible it's perfectly logical to think perhaps the coords are off when they're taking you to a steep and slippery hill. Your suggestion that either the coords or the ratings might be off was spot on. I noticed other, more experienced cachers have also logged DNFs on the cache, so it seems reasonable to think there is a problem.

 

Some people don't like having someone less experienced then themselves pointing out their mistakes. That happens everywhere, not just in caching. Don't let their problem stop you. Keep on logging those DNFs!

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Ok so here are the 2 emails I sent last night:

---

"I didn't mean to offend you. I thought I was supposed

to provide feedback in the DNF."

---

"I replaced the log entry. Sorry I caused any trouble!

It was not intended."

---

 

And just now I got this reply:

---

"yes your supposed to provide feedback, but reread what you wrote, it came off like you had 163846 finds

and you were a pro...most people when they can't find a cache post a dnf, and blame it on their lack of

being able to find the cache...you blamed it on me...im going to check on it right now ill let you know if it is

still there!"

---

 

I don't think I'm going to reply to this. But here is what I learned out of this:

 

* When writing a log entry, remember that the owner gets it as an email, not as a thread of log entries, so anything you say should stand on its own. Thus my rude-sounding "How about a hint we can use" which I can see now must have sounded really bad out of context.

 

* Don't blame the owner when you can't find a cache.

 

The last one I still have a little trouble with because in this case, the owner did not get the hint from the other log entries that the coords are off, but anyway I'll definitely be more careful in the future. It's been a good lesson and I thank all of you for your opinions! It really helped!

Edited by QSparrow
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I am a professional writer - and I STILL get misinterpreted at times. Whether by tone or voice (those are technical terms) I make mistakes in informal writing, such as posts or logs.

 

Here's my advice, (unsought as it is): if a log or a post ticks you off, ignore it for 24 hours. Then come back, re-read it, re-read it again, then let it rest a while longer. If you must make a reply, do it in the most over-courteous, inoffensive way you can imagine -- and then lighten up a bit.

 

Imagine yourself as a British Navy officer in 1812, when every nuance of your language could involve you in a swordfight to the death. If you still feel like being hotheaded, brash or curt, may your god protect you.

 

In short, give things the benefit of the FRICKING doubt!

Edited by RockyRaab
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This is a "theory" of mine concerning misinterpreted communication between a cache hider and a cache finder.

 

A scenario like the above happens and the cache finder is TOTALLY grieved by a perceived slight from the cache hider.

 

The cache finder makes it a personal vendetta to FIND THAT CACHE. And when he does, he makes SURE that it becomes a PERMANENT DNF for future cachers.

 

Just a theory, but knowing how some people get their feelings hurt and have a desire to "strike back"......................!!!

 

It could happen!

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Wow. If that was rude, then I'd better not go to any more events, or they'll tar and feather me. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I don't like your cache." It's not like you said something unconstructive, like, "cache hiders like you are usually born from lesser primates, such as chimps, orangutans and lemurs." Good grief, man, you have a right to be unhappy with a thing. Further, just by looking at the cache page I already hate it (exaggeration for effect). The owner could have put more time into it, doing something to spruce it up a bit. It may not be necessary to make a sales pitch, but I like to think the owner actually wants my visit.

 

Finally...if there's anything to slip and fall on, then I ain't taking my granny there, and it's not a 1-rated terrain.

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Even the owners responce to your sincere apology is rude and uncalled for. His use of exclamation points brings me to the conclusion that someone needs prozak, man. Face it pal. Some people are just bitter and do not know how to interact with other human beings, successfully. I would never have offered the owner an apology. You only got another dose of his hostility. Apologising when you know you are in the right reminds me too much of dealing with my x wife. Just turn around, kick the dust off your hikers, and make tracks. Give him a wave and a friendly smile on your way out to let him know that the dark cloud is only over him, and you have the sense to get out of the rain. Here's a picture of him as a baby. X

 

devour1yc.jpg

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I posted a DNF today here.

 

I got this reply from the owner:

 

'Think of the most obvious spot..or do you need me to spell it out for

you...if its not in the hole of the plant then get a better gps..coords

were right on when everyone else found it so stop making excuses and

deal with the DNF...the hint is perfect and doesn't need changed nor does

the difficulty...now if its not there thats one thing and ill check it

out tomorrow but if it is then really the rude email was not called

for."

 

I'm new to this and I thought one of the purposes of a DNF was to provide feedback to the owner. The log entry before mine said that the hint does not apply right now. After posting this I looked at all the other responses, and many people said that the coords pointed down the hill. Also, I had done a terrain=1 cache earlier in the day that was on par with what I thought I was supposed to be doing here, so that's why I thought maybe the rating was wrong.

 

Was I being rude?

 

EDIT: Here is my original log entry. I changed it based on advice below.

 

"We spent quite a bit of time all over the hill on this one. Hard to get a good GPS reading with all the tree cover, and the ground is carpeted with a thick layer of pine needles so the hint could apply to literally anywhere. Very steep hill (and slippery with all those pine needles) and I nearly went all the way down a couple of times. How about a hint we can use? Or else bump both the difficulty and terrain on this one. (Or else maybe the coordinates are off? Two trips to this site both sent us down the hill by more than a little.)"

 

 

I think you both were a little too curt. A line like.. "How about a hint we can use" isn't the nicest response one would like. A more tempered response may have worked a little better. But the response from the cache hider was Way to curt. The bottom line is.. This is supposed to be FUN. Yes, we all get frustrated when we can't find a cache. But don't take it out on the other cacher. Have FUN with the sport and you'll enjoy it a lot more.. As the old saying goes.. you win some and you loose some..

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I don't know that you were rude, but I can see how from the tone of your log someone who is thin skinned might take offense.

 

For example instead of "How about a hint we can use?" try something like, "We decrypted the hint, but we still couldn't find it".

 

That gets across that the hint was not helpful without making the cache owner feel like you are being critical.

 

That sums up what I was going to say.

 

A person can say things and make their point without doing it in a way that would be taken 'wrong'.

 

It's one thing to be blunt. "We have hunted this cache half a dozen times with no luck. We tried to follow the clue but that just didn't help since everthing looks like it matches the clue"

 

It's another to be a blunt object. "We hunted this cache way too many times, the clue sucks, the rating sucks, and we think the cache owner is more interested in modern forms of torture than in hiding an enjoyable cache".

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Of course i havn't been to this cache but from what i have read, there may be some problems with it's placement. To my notion, a 1/1 difficulty rating should mean that this thing should be easily gotten to and easily found. It may indeed be easily gotten to so the problem here could be that the coordinates are off. I believe i saw 4 DNFs out of the 15 logs total, which for a 1/1 cache, indicates a problem.

 

The OP's DNF log was fine in my opinion. I myself would have stuck to my guns and not changed a thing! :D

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"We spent quite a bit of time all over the hill on this one. Hard to get a good GPS reading with all the tree cover, and the ground is carpeted with a thick layer of pine needles so the hint could apply to literally anywhere. Very steep hill (and slippery with all those pine needles) and I nearly went all the way down a couple of times. How about a hint we can use? Or else bump both the difficulty and terrain on this one. (Or else maybe the coordinates are off? Two trips to this site both sent us down the hill by more than a little.)"

 

Nothing wrong with that log at all.

Since the cache is rated as wheelchair accessible it's perfectly logical to think perhaps the coords are off when they're taking you to a steep and slippery hill. Your suggestion that either the coords or the ratings might be off was spot on. I noticed other, more experienced cachers have also logged DNFs on the cache, so it seems reasonable to think there is a problem.

 

Some people don't like having someone less experienced then themselves pointing out their mistakes. That happens everywhere, not just in caching. Don't let their problem stop you. Keep on logging those DNFs!

I don't think it was rude either.
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(the following is a spurious foofy solution to the problem :P )

 

 

Hey Mr. Cacher!! I went back and FOUND your cache today! I did not have any trouble finding it today, I don't know WHY I could not find it before!!

 

Anyway, thanks for spreading the cache around like that! It was cute the way you hung the ammo box lid in the pine tree! (watch out for those slippery needles) and the log book was easy to find, what with it flapping in the breeze down the hill near the Elderberry bushes! Good job!

 

I also like the unique way you distributed the MacToys into the "universal gesture" of friendship!! :o That was cute! Risque but cute!

 

Looking forward to finding more of your wonderful caches!

 

Yours truely,

 

Don T. Pizzamehoff

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As you can see, a bit more careful wording in your DNF post would have been a good idea. HOWEVER, don't be too hard on yourself. The cache owner is being way too sensitive and shouldn't have freaked out over your comments. They weren't bad enough to warrent his little hissy fit. It's too bad you deleted your original post because it DID contain valuable information that future seekers could have used. Don't let this "incident" keep you from posting that kind of detail in the future. Cachers rely on the info you provide. Hang in there and don't let Mr. Super-Sensitive bother you!

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I posted a DNF today here.

 

I got this reply from the owner:

 

'Think of the most obvious spot..or do you need me to spell it out for

you...if its not in the hole of the plant then get a better gps..coords

were right on when everyone else found it so stop making excuses and

deal with the DNF...the hint is perfect and doesn't need changed nor does

the difficulty...now if its not there thats one thing and ill check it

out tomorrow but if it is then really the rude email was not called

for."

 

I'm new to this and I thought one of the purposes of a DNF was to provide feedback to the owner. The log entry before mine said that the hint does not apply right now. After posting this I looked at all the other responses, and many people said that the coords pointed down the hill. Also, I had done a terrain=1 cache earlier in the day that was on par with what I thought I was supposed to be doing here, so that's why I thought maybe the rating was wrong.

 

Was I being rude?

 

EDIT: Here is my original log entry. I changed it based on advice below.

 

"We spent quite a bit of time all over the hill on this one. Hard to get a good GPS reading with all the tree cover, and the ground is carpeted with a thick layer of pine needles so the hint could apply to literally anywhere. Very steep hill (and slippery with all those pine needles) and I nearly went all the way down a couple of times. How about a hint we can use? Or else bump both the difficulty and terrain on this one. (Or else maybe the coordinates are off? Two trips to this site both sent us down the hill by more than a little.)"

I always log DNFs religiously, and I have, luckily, never yet encountered one of those rare thin-skinned or emotionally dysfunctional geocache owners who has taken offense at one of my DNF logs. Sounds like the owner in this case forgot to take their nap that day and as a result thre a hissy fit at you. Your original DNF log, along with its excellent and reasonable sugestions regarding D and T ratings, appears to me to be a very good and comprehensive DNF log, and you are welcome to file DNFs on any of our geocaches any day! Sorry that you ran into a thin-skinned or flaky cache owner via your DNF, and let me reassure you that such people and such behaviors are very rare in the world of geocaching.

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I don't think either you, or he were particularly rude in your initial exchange, but both could easily be construed that way.

 

It is quite possible that the cache is in fact in a very obvious place (my guess is in a stump, by the path, or something like that).

 

The cache may even *be* handicapped accessible, and here you are telling him that the cache has bad coordinates, or bad terrain indicator, when it quite possibly has neither. (I know I might come off a little curt if some newbie cache told me that one of my caches was set up wrong, when I know for a fact that its not)

 

You indicated tree cover, as you well know, that can mess with GPS reception. Coordinates can be tricky. I know of some caches, where if you go to them at certain times of day, the GPS tends to put you 20+m away, but other days, you'll be bang on.

 

Even a 1/1 cache can end up being challenge if you start going in huge circles.

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Lets dissect a little bit what the cache hider said...

 

'Think of the most obvious spot..or do you need me to spell it out for

you...

 

Cache is in what the hider considers to be an obvious spot (i.e. you were probably way out when you were scurrying around the hill)

 

if its not in the hole of the plant then get a better gps..

 

The cache is in the hole of a plant (maybe in a tree stump, or a knot hole?)

 

coords were right on when everyone else found it so stop making excuses and

deal with the DNF...

 

What you said in your DNF apparently isn't accurate. The reasons you didn't think you could find it apparently didn't hold anyone else back from finding.

 

the hint is perfect and doesn't need changed nor does

the difficulty...

 

You're making a mountain out of mole hill. The cache *is* easy to find. You just aren't looking right. Stick close to the path when you're looking.

 

now if its not there thats one thing and ill check it out tomorrow but if it is then really the rude email was not called for."

 

Did you e-mail the owner? What I read your post to mean was that this was your cache log, not an e-mail to the owner.

 

Dissecting the above in this manner makes me think that perhaps he's trying to lead you to the cache, but obviously doesn't want to tell you exactly where it is.

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Lets dissect a little bit what the cache hider said...

 

'Think of the most obvious spot..or do you need me to spell it out for

you...

 

Cache is in what the hider considers to be an obvious spot (i.e. you were probably way out when you were scurrying around the hill)

 

if its not in the hole of the plant then get a better gps..

 

The cache is in the hole of a plant (maybe in a tree stump, or a knot hole?)

 

coords were right on when everyone else found it so stop making excuses and

deal with the DNF...

 

What you said in your DNF apparently isn't accurate. The reasons you didn't think you could find it apparently didn't hold anyone else back from finding.

 

the hint is perfect and doesn't need changed nor does

the difficulty...

 

You're making a mountain out of mole hill. The cache *is* easy to find. You just aren't looking right. Stick close to the path when you're looking.

 

now if its not there thats one thing and ill check it out tomorrow but if it is then really the rude email was not called for."

 

Did you e-mail the owner? What I read your post to mean was that this was your cache log, not an e-mail to the owner.

 

Dissecting the above in this manner makes me think that perhaps he's trying to lead you to the cache, but obviously doesn't want to tell you exactly where it is.

Thanks for the dissection. The initial email the owner received was an automatic email of the log entry I entered.

 

It may well be true that the coords are perfect as well as the terrain rating. But if so, then 4 or 5 of us got the same bad reading. I'm not saying it can't happen, but....

 

Even google maps has the thing 40 feet from the road. 40 feet from the road is a far bit down the hill. So maybe google maps is off too.

 

And you can see I'm not the only DNF.

 

But I do appreciate the perspective!

Edited by QSparrow
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Lets dissect a little bit what the cache hider said...

 

'Think of the most obvious spot..or do you need me to spell it out for

you...

 

Cache is in what the hider considers to be an obvious spot (i.e. you were probably way out when you were scurrying around the hill)

 

if its not in the hole of the plant then get a better gps..

 

The cache is in the hole of a plant (maybe in a tree stump, or a knot hole?)

 

coords were right on when everyone else found it so stop making excuses and

deal with the DNF...

 

What you said in your DNF apparently isn't accurate. The reasons you didn't think you could find it apparently didn't hold anyone else back from finding.

 

the hint is perfect and doesn't need changed nor does

the difficulty...

 

You're making a mountain out of mole hill. The cache *is* easy to find. You just aren't looking right. Stick close to the path when you're looking.

 

now if its not there thats one thing and ill check it out tomorrow but if it is then really the rude email was not called for."

 

Did you e-mail the owner? What I read your post to mean was that this was your cache log, not an e-mail to the owner.

 

Dissecting the above in this manner makes me think that perhaps he's trying to lead you to the cache, but obviously doesn't want to tell you exactly where it is.

 

I certainly havn't came up with the same dissection that you did. The cache may in fact be easy and the OP may have looked right at it and not found it. Still, that doesn't make it right for the cache's owner to come back like he did. The facts are that 4 people out of 15, the last time i looked, couldn't find this cache. That seems like too high a ratio for a 1/1 cache so it does indicate to me that there may be a problem with the placement.

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I certainly havn't came up with the same dissection that you did. The cache may in fact be easy and the OP may have looked right at it and not found it. Still, that doesn't make it right for the cache's owner to come back like he did. The facts are that 4 people out of 15, the last time i looked, couldn't find this cache. That seems like too high a ratio for a 1/1 cache so it does indicate to me that there may be a problem with the placement.

 

I noticed that too, but the other three DNF were followed by finds, so apperently it was there. There are lots possiablities... maybe the rating or coordinates are not off a tiny bit. Or somehow there's multiple ways to get to the cache? Or even that "Neighborhood Watch" from the first DNF back in November came back and stole the cache :P .

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I think that the OP was a little curt("How about a hint we can use."), but the cache hider was WAY out of line. Then the OP apologizes and amends his log, and the cache hider fires back at him again. The cache hider also makes a comment about how many finds(or lack thereof) the OP has.

 

This may get me in a bit of hot water around here, but I have to say that I have seen this attitude quite a bit here. I have had the good fortune to run into some very nice local cachers that have been very helpful, but on this forum, I have seen at least 2 threads where somebody asks a legitimate question and "senior" members have made a joke out of it.

 

Just because somebody is new, doesn't make their viewpoint/question/concerns(about a cache) any less valid.

 

To the OP, blow off the cache finder. Avoid his caches like syphilis. You took the high road and you can be proud that you did so. I agree with whoever said that it's a good idea to use the preview post function and read it again. If I'm angry when I write a post or an email, I always ask my wife to read and see if I'm being to snide.

 

If the cache hider is reading, quit taking yourself and your caches so seriously. THIS IS A GAME. Instead of blowing up at a new person, take a minute and calmly explain to him or her the situation. You may want to be polite to a person that you don't know, you could be meeting them deep in the woods tomorrow.

 

Of course, that's just the opinion of a newbie.

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To the OP, blow off the cache finder. Avoid his caches like syphilis. You took the high road and you can be proud that you did so. I agree with whoever said that it's a good idea to use the preview post function and read it again. If I'm angry when I write a post or an email, I always ask my wife to read and see if I'm being to snide.

Thanks for the advice - I already decided to avoid this guy's caches. :P

 

Also, I wasn't the slightest bit angry or frustrated when I made the log. It didn't even occur to me that my log would be misinterpreted but after the fact I can see how it was. Call me crazy but I actually like it that I can't find the caches sometimes. I often go home and think about where it could be that I didn't try, or what the hint could mean, and then try again another day. I was just making suggestions in the log because I thought things didn't match up. (Which I still think.) And I didn't want anybody to go sliding down this slippery hill without a warning.

 

Anyhow, it's cool that you guys responded both ways on this because nothing is ever black and white. There was some fault I think on both sides. And I like to learn from my mistakes. And yes I am proud of the way I handled it and I thank all you guys for your perspectives!

Edited by QSparrow
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After receiving a number of critical remarks in logs, I vented my spleen by creating the following list which I would NEVER use but made me feel better. :P

Responses I’d like to make to logs, but am too polite to actually do it:

 

1. Cache too hard (See that rating scale? Read it again.)

2. Cache too small (Sorry, couldn’t find a place to put a 50 gallon drum.)

3. Cache container once a food container (Rubbed stinky sneaker socks all over the cache. Should be o.k. now.)

4. Cache on ground, in bush, in tree, in rocks, etc (Everything has to be somewhere.)

5. No hints or hints don’t tell where cache is (It’s in the decon container attached to the bottom of the 3rd fence post to the left of the gate at 294 Southeast Pine Street, Some Where, TX 43210)

6. Cache is not in plain sight (That’s o.k. Your GPS will find it and maybe you can train it to log the find for you, too.)

7. Necessary to look under, over, behind, beside, etc. (See the flashing neon red star on the rock? The cache is under the rock.)

8. Not enough attributes (If you stick your hand in a cactus patch, don’t you expect thorns?)

9. Coordinates off by 45 feet (Take a couple of friends with you. Then you can all be off varying distances and in different directions.

10. Cache too close to business (It’s called support your local economy)

11. Cache container not conventional (Think outside the box—literally)

12. Cache not what I expected (See the ignore button? Click on it)

13. Caches all numbered-hard to remember (Make a list.)

14. Cache won’t last long (Nothing lasts forever)

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Ok so here are the 2 emails I sent last night:

---

"I didn't mean to offend you. I thought I was supposed

to provide feedback in the DNF."

---

"I replaced the log entry. Sorry I caused any trouble!

It was not intended."

---

 

And just now I got this reply:

---

"yes your supposed to provide feedback, but reread what you wrote, it came off like you had 163846 finds

and you were a pro...most people when they can't find a cache post a dnf, and blame it on their lack of

being able to find the cache...you blamed it on me...im going to check on it right now ill let you know if it is

still there!"

---

 

I don't think I'm going to reply to this. But here is what I learned out of this:

 

* When writing a log entry, remember that the owner gets it as an email, not as a thread of log entries, so anything you say should stand on its own. Thus my rude-sounding "How about a hint we can use" which I can see now must have sounded really bad out of context.

 

* Don't blame the owner when you can't find a cache.

 

The last one I still have a little trouble with because in this case, the owner did not get the hint from the other log entries that the coords are off, but anyway I'll definitely be more careful in the future. It's been a good lesson and I thank all of you for your opinions! It really helped!

 

A few more thoughts on this:

 

1. Try emailing the previous finders that said the coords were off and asking them if they kept a record of the more accurate coords and omit the open question about the coords in your log. It's important to remember that we are not dealing with a instrument that will behave the same day to day and you could go back tomorrow and find the coords to be more accurate. You are making the assumption that your reading was the correct one and that might not be accurate.

2. Try to hold off on any feedback until you find the cache. As it was mentioned, it is always best to assume you were wrong when speaking to the owner of a cache. Who knows, you might have been sitting on it or fat fingered the entry of the coords. Your opinion on the hide is much more credible, and better received, once you actually find it.

3. Feedback is good but consider sending the stronger negative feedback via email. Even if you are right on the money, you are still calling the owner out in front of everyone who is watching the page and will seek his cache in the future. Even if the cache is horrible the owner did make an investment in time, energy and money to put it there.

4. Understand that some treat their cache hides like their children. They tend to be a little over protective. This guy seemed to be a step beyond that but the advice to wait a day and then post is solid, if you are miffed.

5. When you find it, take a waypoint at the cache. If it is significantly off the posted coords, the log gives you a place to post your coords. It's good form just to do this and not call out the cache owner about the coords. That way you have done something helpful for the next person that found it instead of casting more doubt for the next cacher.

Edited by Team GeoBlast
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I certainly havn't came up with the same dissection that you did. The cache may in fact be easy and the OP may have looked right at it and not found it. Still, that doesn't make it right for the cache's owner to come back like he did. The facts are that 4 people out of 15, the last time i looked, couldn't find this cache. That seems like too high a ratio for a 1/1 cache so it does indicate to me that there may be a problem with the placement.

 

There are obviously different ways to dissect it, I like to try to look at things in the best possible light.

 

If we go through the Clayjar rating system, I imagine we can come to an agreement on most of the answers, even without having seen the cache (OP, feel free to correct any that I'm guessing wrong on)

 

Is specialized equipment required?

No

Yes

 

Is an overnight stay likely?

No

Yes

Will it take more than a day to hike in, find the cache, and hike out again?

 

What is the length of the hike?

Less than 1/2 mile

Less than 1 km

1/2 mile to 2 miles

About 1 to 3 km

2 miles to 10 miles

About 3 to 16 km

Over 10 miles

Over 16 km

This is the length of the hike from the most logical parking area to the cache.

 

What is the trail like?

Paved pathways

Asphalt, concrete, or boardwalks.

Well marked/defined hardpack (maybe? OP? what's the trail like?)

Well packed dirt. You could ride a standard bicycle or push a stroller on this trail without too much effort.

Other trail types

Could be gravel, sand, mud, etc. May be an animal trail. If you're riding a bike, it had better be a mountain bike.

Trail? What trail?

There is no real trail. Wheels are out. May be following a stream bed or be very rocky.

How is the the most difficult part of the cache? If the cache is within a few feet of a trail, don't worry about the last few feet.

 

Is the path bushy or overgrown?

Not at all

There is no overgrowth at all.

Some light overgrowth

An adult could step over or around this.

Yeah, it's pretty overgrown

It's waist-high or so, or it may be thorny or have poison plants.

The overgrowth is very heavy

I can't see the other side! Some type of machete or other cutting device is probably needed. Very likely to have thorns or poison plants.

Overgrowth refers to any plant or other substance that impedes the path. Keep in mind that conditions change; rate based on your understanding of worst-case conditions.

 

What is the terrain elevation like?

Basically flat There might be some contention here, but if the cache isn't down the hill, I assume that 'basically flat' is a good descriptor.

 

Only slight elevation changes. Easy to do in a wheelchair, stroller, bike, etc.

Some elevation changes

Changes are slight enough that someone could ride a bike up such a slope.

Steep elevation changes

Change is steep. Probably could not ride a bike up this slope, but could push it up.

Severe elevation changes

The only way up the slope is to use your hands. Going down may require the use of your backside.

How hard is the steepest part of the cache?

 

How easy is it to find the cache?

Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious. According to the cache owner, the location is fairly obvious. Maybe once you bear in mind that its rated 1/1 there is only one place the cache could logically be.

 

Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

Please consider visibility, accessibility, and relative signal strength due to tree cover or other obstructions when answering this question.

 

The highest I can get this cache rated is 2/2.25, I've always felt though that the clayjar system tends to give higher ratings that I would for a cache. So worst case scenario, we're out by 1/1.25. Given how subjective this system is, I don't think that's too bad.

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Wow, we could almost write a thesis on this single cache, couldn't we?

What is the trail like?

Paved pathways

Asphalt, concrete, or boardwalks.

Well marked/defined hardpack (maybe? OP? what's the trail like?)

Well packed dirt. You could ride a standard bicycle or push a stroller on this trail without too much effort.

Other trail types

Could be gravel, sand, mud, etc. May be an animal trail. If you're riding a bike, it had better be a mountain bike.

Trail? What trail?

There is no real trail. Wheels are out. May be following a stream bed or be very rocky.

How is the the most difficult part of the cache? If the cache is within a few feet of a trail, don't worry about the last few feet.

It is certainly not paved. It is vegetated. Here is my recollection which may not be all that accurate: There was a very thin trail leading down the (steep and slippery) hill. At the top of the hill along side the road there is flat land, trees, bushes, thick layer of pine needles everywhere... I don't remember a trail up there but there could have been one.

 

I think the intention of the cache is to be very easy. But hey I learned my lesson. I'm the worst cacher ever and this was totally my fault that I couldn't find a simple 1/1 cache. :P

Edited by QSparrow
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Even the owners responce to your sincere apology is rude and uncalled for. His use of exclamation points brings me to the conclusion that someone needs prozak, man. Face it pal. Some people are just bitter and do not know how to interact with other human beings, successfully. I would never have offered the owner an apology. You only got another dose of his hostility. Apologising when you know you are in the right reminds me too much of dealing with my x wife. Just turn around, kick the dust off your hikers, and make tracks. Give him a wave and a friendly smile on your way out to let him know that the dark cloud is only over him, and you have the sense to get out of the rain. Here's a picture of him as a baby. X

 

devour1yc.jpg

 

 

right on!

And that photo almost made me pee on myself.

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The reality is that some caches are placed with more care than others. A lot of times it seems as though the hider didn't take the time to get a really good reading, or to create a "better" (obviously a subjective opinion) hide. I also once pointed out a problem to someone whose coordinates were *clearly* off, and that person reacted defensively.

 

In other words, I'm not sure that you can assume that everyone will take any criticism as constructive, especially if you're not very careful with your language. To me, a DNF is indeed a call to recheck the cache myself; but, again, none of us can assume that anyone else plays the game the same way that we do. I'm reminded of that nearly every day ... in geocaching, and in life.

 

-- Jeannette

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I certainly havn't came up with the same dissection that you did. The cache may in fact be easy and the OP may have looked right at it and not found it. Still, that doesn't make it right for the cache's owner to come back like he did. The facts are that 4 people out of 15, the last time i looked, couldn't find this cache. That seems like too high a ratio for a 1/1 cache so it does indicate to me that there may be a problem with the placement.

 

There are obviously different ways to dissect it, I like to try to look at things in the best possible light.

 

If we go through the Clayjar rating system, I imagine we can come to an agreement on most of the answers, even without having seen the cache (OP, feel free to correct any that I'm guessing wrong on)

 

Is specialized equipment required?

No

Yes

 

Is an overnight stay likely?

No

Yes

Will it take more than a day to hike in, find the cache, and hike out again?

 

What is the length of the hike?

Less than 1/2 mile

Less than 1 km

1/2 mile to 2 miles

About 1 to 3 km

2 miles to 10 miles

About 3 to 16 km

Over 10 miles

Over 16 km

This is the length of the hike from the most logical parking area to the cache.

 

What is the trail like?

Paved pathways

Asphalt, concrete, or boardwalks.

Well marked/defined hardpack (maybe? OP? what's the trail like?)

Well packed dirt. You could ride a standard bicycle or push a stroller on this trail without too much effort.

Other trail types

Could be gravel, sand, mud, etc. May be an animal trail. If you're riding a bike, it had better be a mountain bike.

Trail? What trail?

There is no real trail. Wheels are out. May be following a stream bed or be very rocky.

How is the the most difficult part of the cache? If the cache is within a few feet of a trail, don't worry about the last few feet.

 

Is the path bushy or overgrown?

Not at all

There is no overgrowth at all.

Some light overgrowth

An adult could step over or around this.

Yeah, it's pretty overgrown

It's waist-high or so, or it may be thorny or have poison plants.

The overgrowth is very heavy

I can't see the other side! Some type of machete or other cutting device is probably needed. Very likely to have thorns or poison plants.

Overgrowth refers to any plant or other substance that impedes the path. Keep in mind that conditions change; rate based on your understanding of worst-case conditions.

 

What is the terrain elevation like?

Basically flat There might be some contention here, but if the cache isn't down the hill, I assume that 'basically flat' is a good descriptor.

 

Only slight elevation changes. Easy to do in a wheelchair, stroller, bike, etc.

Some elevation changes

Changes are slight enough that someone could ride a bike up such a slope.

Steep elevation changes

Change is steep. Probably could not ride a bike up this slope, but could push it up.

Severe elevation changes

The only way up the slope is to use your hands. Going down may require the use of your backside.

How hard is the steepest part of the cache?

 

How easy is it to find the cache?

Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious. According to the cache owner, the location is fairly obvious. Maybe once you bear in mind that its rated 1/1 there is only one place the cache could logically be.

 

Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

Please consider visibility, accessibility, and relative signal strength due to tree cover or other obstructions when answering this question.

 

The highest I can get this cache rated is 2/2.25, I've always felt though that the clayjar system tends to give higher ratings that I would for a cache. So worst case scenario, we're out by 1/1.25. Given how subjective this system is, I don't think that's too bad.

 

One problem I find with the ClayJar system (and it isn't necessarily a problem with the rating system itself) is something I like to call the Last 20 Feet Effect . I've noticed that most cache terrain ratings are accurate up to the last 20 feet. I've been to many caches with a 1 terrain rating that the path running near the cache is paved however a little off-roading and in more than one case hill climbing is required to get to the cache. No problem for someone who is able bodied but a big problem for those with certain disabilities.

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One problem I find with the ClayJar system (and it isn't necessarily a problem with the rating system itself) is something I like to call the Last 20 Feet Effect . I've noticed that most cache terrain ratings are accurate up to the last 20 feet. I've been to many caches with a 1 terrain rating that the path running near the cache is paved however a little off-roading and in more than one case hill climbing is required to get to the cache. No problem for someone who is able bodied but a big problem for those with certain disabilities.

I think you see that because the wording sorta tells you do ignore the end... Don't get me wrong, there are many extreme caches but, If you go to the rating system, and look at the 4th question 'what is the trail like', at the bottom it says (underline added):

How is the the most difficult part of the cache? If the cache is within a few feet of a trail, don't worry about the last few feet.
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