mikeslomka

This dog was found a couple of hours after it got out. My wife posted this while I was away at deer camp, but did not update it.

I really need some help-my friends are visiting from Reno and kenneled their dogs at K9 Kamp in Palomino Valley. One of them got out and we desperately need to find her. Ginger is a shep/shar pei/ lab mix. Dark fawn in color, short coat, gay tail carried over her back. No distinguishing marks. She is very shy (so might not be carrying that tail up), and will most likely not come to a man. She has never been known to chase livestock, and has only been out less than a day so shouldn't even be hungry enough to get into trouble. The Sparks Animal Control is aware of the situation, so you can contact them at 775-322-3647 if you see her. You can also reach the owners at 775-240-2452. Any help you can possibly give would be appreciated-even if you see her please report that. Thank you so much-they are just trying to have a good vacation!! Erica

We over the top posting fools have been around long enough to have read the guideline about playing nice in the forums and not calling people names. However, too often we break that rule in the heat of posting, as you seem to have done with your two-bit opinion. Welcome to the forums, you'll fit right in! I'm done with these forums. I won't let a bunch of people with an over-inflated sense of self importance tarnish my enjoyment of geocaching in general. I came here to have civil discourse about a hobby that I enjoy, not to get involved in full scale flame wars. Out

Well there's the problem, isn't it. Obviously certain cachers can't be trusted. If they could, then we wouldn't be hearing about caches placed on private property causing a large scale investigation. Also, I really don't see any guidance going on in these forums. All I see is bickering and childish back and forths. Now, I come to realize that I am part of that childish arguing, because I continue to participate. There are people on these forums that will fight over how to unwrap a birthday present. And I believe that they would argue just to be arguing and stirring the pot. So from now on, I won't be part of these discussions. In fact, I'm going to avoid these forums unless I really need a question answered that I can not find ANYWHERE else. Shouldn't be hard to do that, considering I've never actually seen a question answered here, just arguement and ridicule. Out.

The biggest problem cachers that I have seen are the pompous (expletive deleted) that think that they can go where they want and do what, regardless of how it effects others around them. Also the fools with over the top post counts who think that there two-bit opinion matters more than anybody elses. It's a wonder that there is room in these forums at all with the giant egos around here.

I'll rephrase, nobody has come forward to state that they asked and were given permission. I haven't even heard about a guy who knew a guy, who dated a girl whose brothers chemistry partners dad asked permission and was granted it.

The Park Outreach Committee contacts parks to make sure that geocaching is allowed. We also find out if they have any rules where caches can be placed or if caches have to be registered with the park system. We also explain why caching is beneficial to them and offer ourselves as contacts if they need to discuss a problem. If they do have rules or a permit system, a link to their webiste is placed on the MiGO site. That way our membership knows what those rules are and knows what parks are friendly toward us. The MiGO leadership has made great strides in opening up land to us that was previously unavailable(these folks were doing it long before I came along). We are not acting like cache police in anyway.

The difference here is that geocaching.com reviews each cache before they publish it. Also, a hider has to click the box that says that they have read and understand the guildlines for placing a cache. That is where is says that you must have "adequate" permission. Just what adequate permission is, is what we are arguing about. I do understand that I can not issue an injunctive order, I can file one though(or my legal representative if I don't know how to do it). However, Renegade Knight used personal pronouns so for the sake of continuity, I did the same. If permission is not attainable, then shouldn't that tell us all something? Like maybe the people that own the property don't want that kind of activity there. I'm not saying that that is the case, but the fact is, we don't know. Nobody has ever even bothered to ask. I would be fine with that. At least it would give me something to go on. In fact, when I submitted 2 caches for review last week, I put down the name of the park director and his phone number. If the reviewer wanted me to put that into the body of the listing, I would do so in a minute. At no point have I ever lobbied to ban a specific type of cache, or a cache in a specific place. I have only said that permission should be obtained before hiding. Why take the chance that it will backfire and hurt the game.

I just want to make two quick points regarding your post. First, micros typically require more maintenance than larger caches because they are hidden around people. Second, you seem to be quite concerned about permission for every LPC that you find. Are you equally concerned about every other cache that you look for? In my experience, you are more likely to catch heck while looking for a cache anywhere else than in a parking lot. I find your first point difficult to believe. Mainly because the micros that I have found are typically nothing more than a log and maybe a pencil. How much maintenance is there to do on that. The best micros that I have found have been VERY well thought out and hidden in places that most non-cachers wouldn't even think to look(on a bolt through a wooden block, and down the post of a fence). And to answer your second question, yes, I am equally concerned about caches that are in places other than parking lots. That's why I volunteered to be on MiGO's park outreach committee, and to try to contact as many parks departments that I can to make sure that we have EXPLICIT permission to place caches there. It's nice being able to get out and be proactive instead of waiting around and griping about things after it is too late. Also, I plan on doing a cache series in and around Michigan brew pubs, and I plan to get permission from each and every business that I include in the series. If they don't give me permission, then I will just go to the next place. Some of caches may even be micros. Let me say this one more time, since so many people here like to pick and choose sentences from a whole post and ignore the rest, I have nothing against LPC's. If you like to hide and find them, go right ahead. That's your perogative, I am sure that you won't let what I think stop you, and you shouldn't. Personally, they don't do much for me, but I am all for your right(for lack of a better word) to go a seek them out. A well thought out micro is actually pretty cool. What I think is wrong, is placing caches on private property when you don't have permission to do so. It's not your, or my, decision to make. It is the decision of the property manager or the person who has control of the property.

Ok, let me correct the frist grammatical error then. What I meant(but did not say...apparently you have to be precise around here) is "Walmart will have gc.com served with an injunctive order until all cache listings are removed." Not just archived, but removed. Secondly, I do have to worry about what kind of permission you have gotten, because it is going to be me(or another cacher) who is going to have that manager, or perhaps other authorities, in my face. The hider is most likely going to be the person who is observed acting suspicious and confronted. How many of the caches, and let's be honest...we're talking about micros, require much maintenance? I have seen quite a few with log books going back 2 years or more. Now I will grant you that this arguement gives a little bit of validaty to the fact that they are not often found by the people in charge, but it only takes one person being seen retrieving a cache to create a problem. Or how about this situation: There is a cacher that works at a BBS and is telling all of the other employees that there is a cache RIGHT IN THE PARKING LOT!! How cool is that?!?! The wrong person overhears it, and there's your problem. Telling me not to question your permission while I'm out caching with MY family is presumptuous and arrogant. What one person does could very well affect the rest of the community. And no, I can not give you an injunctive order to stop all software piracy on the planet. I can, however, give you one that will shut down your site until you stop supplying the means to pirate software. That is the most likely scenario in this situation. The injunctive order would probably list, not only gc.com, but all of the companies that run the servers, assuming that gc.com does not have its own, I don't know if they do or not. Finally, I have to question just what "assumed permission" is. If you leave your wallet sitting on the trunk of your car, am I to assume that you wanted me to have it, so I should take it? I'm clearly not breaking into your vehicle, and you are not in control of that property, so I could asume that it was abandoned and fair game for anybody who wanted it. Assumed permission is not permission at all. "Well your honor, since they never made a rule that I couldn't, I just assumed that I could." Just because it is not expressly permitted, doesn't make it right.

Well said TrailGators. What would you rather see, film footage of a person saying: "Yeah, we allow them to place their caches here because for the most part, they are respectful of the property and it is good for business. We as management are well aware of the cache placement, and they are welcome here anytime." Or: "We had no idea that the object was there. We think that it was wrong of them to put it there without consulting us first. This incedent has cost us business, and our attorneys will be in contact with geocaching.com" Earlier somebody said that if it did cause a problem, Wal-mart would have gc.com served with an injunctive order until all of the caches were removed. I once mentioned about a national electronics store chain being shut down for several hours because of a suspicious package in the parking lot. What would Wal-marts response to that be?

Wow, all my fault. Imagine that.

OK, the avatar is there, but the signature is still wrong. GRRRRRRR

...and again....

Another test

Ok, not working...I'll try something else.

Testing new avatar

I certainly am. It seems like certain(not all, but some) people who have over a 1000 posts believe that they are entitled to be as rude as they want to others. I don't know, maybe it comes with the 1k decoder ring. I would think that they would want to be nicer to people who want to participate in geocaching, would want to show them the right way to behave. I guess not. I can also see why it's the same few people that participate in the forums. They chase away everybody else. I myself participate WAY more in my regional forums, and I find the people much nicer and much more helpful. Team Geoblast, I for one think that you are doing the right thing. I don't like the whole idea of "implied consent", or the "frisbee rule". I think that permission, means permission. That the cache hider got permission to place a particular cache in a particular location from the owner or land manager of that property. That also includes parks. I think that as geocachers we should be working with the parks to get geocaching allowed and get explicit permission granted for cache placement. What can it hurt to get permission? If you are told yes, then there is never any question that you had the right to be there. If you are told no, then it is also unquestionable that you don't have the right to be there. If you don't have the right to be there, then move on down the road and find a new place to hide your cache. I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers. Think about it. How many citizens will be effected by a ban on parking lot caches? How much money is Walmart will to provide to the councils opponents in the next election? As far as small governments are concerned, geocachers(or any fringe group) are more trouble than they are worth...unless they are shown different. Also, the only law that I've heard brought up so far is trespassing. A case could also be made for littering. The fine for littering in Michigan is $500. That's a pretty expensive cache. And there's not much use in denying it either, since you put your name right on the log, or at least on the cache page.

Is it "red on black, friend of Jack...red on yellow, kill a fellow"?? By the way, I would love finding a free gift card for pizza. You would be my favorite cacher finder ever!!

I'll help if I can.

My 4 year old and (almost) 3 year old cache with me quite a bit. They are not yet strong enough to open an ammo box, but I am sure when they are, I will let them open it as long as I am with them. If we find something that is inappropriate, I will talk to them about it and tell them why it is inappropriate. My only concern is that there is something that looks like food but isn't. My son is still in that age where stuff may look tasty.

I look for a lot of caches on my lunchtime at work, so I usually don't have long to look. My rule of thumb is that if I don't find it on the second day of lunchtime hunts, then I will log it as a DNF. I don't feel that is cheating, I feel that is giving myself adequate time to search. Also, I almost always go back the very next day. I'm certainly not ashamed of DNF's. Many times you can learn a lot by what you didn't find.

I guess that it all boils down to two things: 1.) How do you feel about giving them the find, and 2.) How do they feel about claiming the find? I did a pretty good multi and got to the last stage and could not find it. There was evidence that it had been muggled, and when I emailed the owner, he said that he had had problems with that cache being muggled before. He said that since I had done the rest of the cache that I could log it as a find. I felt that I didn't earn it, so I left it as a DNF. That's just my opinion though. Since this isn't a true competition(there are no prizes awarded for most caches), there really aren't many hard rules about the recreation/activity/sport/hobby. If you and the cache finder agree that they deserve the find, then give it to them. My only advice would be to keep it fair. If a person from 1000 miles away emails and asks for the based on what they find and a person from 1 mile away gives the same email, I would treat them the same way. In the end, this is just a game. Wars will not be fought over DNF's and smilies, people will not lose their jobs because they could not find the cache, and the world will keep spinning in space. It's your cache, do what you want with it, it won't bother me one bit.

I have been closely studying terrorism since 1992. I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all, but I have read dozens of books on the subject and taken numerous classes about it, some even from accredited universities. I have interviewed people who are on the front lines in the battle against terrorism, and I have read dozens of interviews from actual terrorists, both foreign and domestic. Believe me when I say that I know a lot about terrorism, the reasons for it, and the responses to it. I used Islamic Jihadists(noticed that I did not say Muslims...I know the difference and I have nothing but respect for the people who follow Muhammads peaceful teachings) because that is the current "face" that is being put on terrorism. If we were having this conversation prior to September 11, 2001, I would have used militia organizations(mainly because before 9/11 when I said the name Osama bin Laden and Al Quaeda people stared at me like I was a monkey doing a card trick). Also, when I mention groups like Earth First, Animal Liberation Front, Green Peace, and other Eco-terrorist groups, people scream at the tops of their lungs that these are not terrorist organizations and they can't be held responsible for what there members do. I could go on all day about groups that SHOULD be considered terrorist but aren't, but that would stir up a giant political pot. Sbell111, I don't appreciate your inference that I am a racist. I judge people by their actions and not by their religion, race, color, or nationality. You seem very quick to jump to that conclusion, what does that say about you. Yes, the enemy pitched his tent in our backyard long ago. In fact, some of my very relatives were terrorists who harrased the British back when we were colonies of England. But the biggest difference is that they fought AGAINST oppresion instead of FOR it. In the end, if you don't like the way that your police department handles a certain situation, then quit hiding behind a screen name on the internet and do something about it. Run for city council, run for the police commision, or the office of sheriff. Put your hand in the political arena and change the way that your city does things. Go to work for the campaign of a candidate that you support. Don't try to dodge jury duty. Or at the very least, VOTE. Not even half of the people in this country exercise their right to vote, Almost every state has a web site that will give you updates on what bills are being introduced into the state legislature. I get updates all the time. I also exercise my voice. My state and national reps are probably sick of hearing from me, because I email them all the time. I have even stopped into their offices on occasion. Since this thread has the same effect as self gratification, I'm done with it.

In case you have forgotten, Islamic Jihadists have declared war on the U.S. and have vowed to carry out acts of terror on our own soil. Dearborn, MI a city about 15 miles from where I sit right now, has the largest population of middle easterns, outside of the middle east. There are some very vocal Anti-American folks that live there. The people that have carried out the attacks on 9/11 and the first World Trade Center bombing didn't just get off of a plane and decide to blow some stuff up. They were here for a while. During the Columbine shooting, the shooters placed IED's that were supposed to injure or kill first responders. Fortunatly, they didn't go off. We may not be in the enemies camp, but they are definitly in ours. If I were to come across some type of box that I couldn't see into, and it wasn't supposed to be there, you can bet that I wouldn't walk up and touch it.