Archiving of 'International Space Station' virtual

[+Team Maddie UK]

It has just been drawn to my attention that the above cache has been archived by Mr. Irish himself after first turning into a locationless which it most definitely is not. I think the good folks at NASA would be absolutely horrified at the suggestion that the ISS is without location. Indeed, it has an extremely precise location which relative to us on the firmament of the planet requires a time reference to determine.

Removing this ever popular cache is pedantic to say the least. We, on several occasions have been able to introduce youngsters to the joys of gazing at the heavens at night by first setting out to spot the ISS and log it at event meets.

And I thought this recreational pursuit was all about having fun. Not about the rigid (and evidently, in some cases, erroneous) application of some corporate directed enterprise.

 

Martin,

Team Maddie UK

[+norsehawk]

Do you need a gps to locate the cache?

[+StarBrand]

It has just been drawn to my attention that the above cache has been archived by Mr. Irish himself after first turning into a locationless which it most definitely is not. I think the good folks at NASA would be absolutely horrified at the suggestion that the ISS is without location. Indeed, it has an extremely precise location which relative to us on the firmament of the planet requires a time reference to determine.

Removing this ever popular cache is pedantic to say the least. We, on several occasions have been able to introduce youngsters to the joys of gazing at the heavens at night by first setting out to spot the ISS and log it at event meets.

And I thought this recreational pursuit was all about having fun. Not about the rigid (and evidently, in some cases, erroneous) application of some corporate directed enterprise.

 

Martin,

Team Maddie UK

With that attitude and language, I am sure you will get someone to reconsider.....

 

It moves (relative to a given position on earth) and doesn't require a GPS. I support its removal. Plus I am sure there were other reasons that sparked the decision recently.

[+Team Maddie UK]

Do you need a gps to locate the cache?

You need to show your GPS and your watch in a photo.

 

Martin

[+sbell111]

Kinda seams like an LC, to me.

 

 

edited to enjoy my ice cream.

Edited August 29, 2006 by sbell111

[+Team Maddie UK]

It has just been drawn to my attention that the above cache has been archived by Mr. Irish himself after first turning into a locationless which it most definitely is not. I think the good folks at NASA would be absolutely horrified at the suggestion that the ISS is without location. Indeed, it has an extremely precise location which relative to us on the firmament of the planet requires a time reference to determine.

Removing this ever popular cache is pedantic to say the least. We, on several occasions have been able to introduce youngsters to the joys of gazing at the heavens at night by first setting out to spot the ISS and log it at event meets.

And I thought this recreational pursuit was all about having fun. Not about the rigid (and evidently, in some cases, erroneous) application of some corporate directed enterprise.

 

Martin,

Team Maddie UK

With that attitude and language, I am sure you will get someone to reconsider.....

 

It moves (relative to a given position on earth) and doesn't require a GPS. I support its removal. Plus I am sure there were other reasons that sparked the decision recently.

 

I thought the language was quite mild considering how strongly I feel about this.

 

So you support the removal of a harmless vitual that can have all sorts of positive fall-out in terms of children etc. And this just for the sake of tryng to adhere to some rather 'fuzzy' rules?

[+robert]

Do you need a gps to locate the cache?

You need to show your GPS and your watch in a photo.

 

Martin

 

Sounds like the definition of a locationless cache to me. From the cache types page:

 

Locationless (Reverse) Cache

Locationless caches could be considered the opposite of a traditional cache. Instead of finding a hidden container, you are given a task to locate a specific object and log its coordinates. A scavenger hunt of sorts, it involves collecting waypoints of various objects around the world.

 

A virtual is defined as:

Virtual Cache

A virtual cache is a cache that exists in a form of a location. Depending on the cache "hider," a virtual cache could be to answer a question about a location, an interesting spot, a task, etc. The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit.

 

Because of the nature of these geocaches, you must actually visit the location and acquire the coordinates there before you can post. In addition, although many locations are interesting, a virtual cache should be out of the ordinary enough to warrant logging a visit.

 

Since there is no fixed location, it is "locationless". A virtual would be a fixed-location place you go to visit.

 

Seems the archival was justified, to be fair to the other owners of locationless caches.

 

 

edit: dang tags!

Edited August 29, 2006 by robert

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I bet if you can get there and sign the log he'll reconsider!

 

Until then....

[+Team Maddie UK]

I bet if you can get there and sign the log he'll reconsider!

 

Until then....

 

ROFLMAO! I had a feeling that that one was coming!

 

Since there is no fixed location, it is "locationless". A virtual would be a fixed-location place you go to visit.

 

I still think that the definitions are a little 'fuzzy'. Perhaps one of the reasons for this is that they were designed to cover objects on the planet which makes the ISS just a little different. It does have a fixed location just not relative to the Earth's surface. Hence I think some latitude should have been given in this case.

 

Martin

[+sbell111]

Cache Permanence

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be listed. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there.

[+robert]

Since there is no fixed location, it is "locationless". A virtual would be a fixed-location place you go to visit.

 

I still think that the definitions are a little 'fuzzy'. Perhaps one of the reasons for this is that they were designed to cover objects on the planet which makes the ISS just a little different. It does have a fixed location just not relative to the Earth's surface. Hence I think some latitude should have been given in this case.

 

If I see the ISS right now and go outside to mark the coordinates (showing my GPS and watch, though I don't wear one) right now, can sbell111 drive here and visit the virtual next weekend?

[+Team Maddie UK]

Cache Permanence

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be listed. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there.

 

Once again, I would hope that the ISS at least has the longevity of the average tupperware box.

[+the hermit crabs]

We, on several occasions have been able to introduce youngsters to the joys of gazing at the heavens at night by first setting out to spot the ISS and log it at event meets.

 

So you support the removal of a harmless vitual that can have all sorts of positive fall-out in terms of children etc. And this just for the sake of tryng to adhere to some rather 'fuzzy' rules?

Well, it's been well-established that "Geocaching doesn't care about chinldren"... have you considered making it a Waymark so that the chinldren won't be robbed of what was surely their only opportunity to be introduced to the joys of gazing at the heavens at night?

 

(or maybe it already is a Waymark. I didn't check.)

[+sbell111]

Cache Permanence

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be listed. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there.

Once again, I would hope that the ISS at least has the longevity of the average tupperware box.

Are you honestly saying that the ISS isn't traveling?

 

It has to be in one spot for a reasonable amount of time. The ISS is traveling at something like 17,000 miles per hour.

[+robert]

Well, it's been well-established that "Geocaching doesn't care about chinldren"... have you considered making it a Waymark so that the chinldren won't be robbed of what was surely their only opportunity to be introduced to the joys of gazing at the heavens at night?

 

(or maybe it already is a Waymark. I didn't check.)

 

Iowa Tom has been proposing one that would/should fit.

[+Team Maddie UK]

Cache Permanence

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be listed. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there.

Once again, I would hope that the ISS at least has the longevity of the average tupperware box.

Are you honestly saying that the ISS isn't traveling?

 

It has to be in one spot for a reasonable amount of time. The ISS is traveling at something like 17,000 miles per hour.

 

So is the cache a few hundred yards from my house. So is every cache I have ever found or placed.

[+Team Maddie UK]

Well, it's been well-established that "Geocaching doesn't care about chinldren"... have you considered making it a Waymark so that the chinldren won't be robbed of what was surely their only opportunity to be introduced to the joys of gazing at the heavens at night?

 

(or maybe it already is a Waymark. I didn't check.)

 

Iowa Tom has been proposing one that would/should fit.

 

Good on him!

 

Martin

[+wimseyguy]

Let me preface my comments with "I like virtuals, I like them a lot". I have been to some very interesting spots that I wouldn't have discovered if not for geocaching. And no, at some of them it was not possible to hide even a micro container.

 

A better question is why was this ever listed as a cache? You cannot actually see it. Yes, I know you can see a light up in the sky (I wish there was a smilie that made the finger in the puckered cheek sound), but let's face reality-you do not see it. If it were a scale model set up outside Kennedy Space Station I could understand it being submitted, but "hey look up in the sky, and they take a picture of yourself, nah......."

[+Team Teuton]

I was watching that cache for a few weeks. I considered logging it but decided it was too lame. Too many 'cachers' were leaving logs like..."Cloudy night so didn't get to see it but heres a picture of a star chart I downloaded off the internet thanks for the smiley."

Edited August 29, 2006 by Team Teuton

[+Team Maddie UK]

A better question is why was this ever listed as a cache? You cannot actually see it. Yes, I know you can see a light up in the sky (I wish there was a smilie that made the finger in the puckered cheek sound), but let's face reality-you do not see it. If it were a scale model set up outside Kennedy Space Station I could understand it being submitted, but "hey look up in the sky, and they take a picture of yourself, nah......."

 

If you manage to capture it in a small backyard telescope, it's surprising how much you can see. A bit tricky to keep it on track unless you have a good stable tripod, but I argue, seeable indeed.

[+Team Maddie UK]

I was watching that cache for a few weeks. I considered logging it but decided it was too lame. Too many 'cachers' were leaving logs like..."Cloudy night so didn't get to see it but heres a picture of a star chart I downloaded off the internet thanks for the smiley."

 

Yea, there's always the few isn't there

[+robert]

I asked this in a previous post, but you may have missed it:

 

"If I see the ISS right now and go outside to mark the coordinates (showing my GPS and watch, though I don't wear one) right now, can sbell111 drive here and visit the virtual next weekend?"

 

[+wimseyguy]

A better question is why was this ever listed as a cache? You cannot actually see it. Yes, I know you can see a light up in the sky (I wish there was a smilie that made the finger in the puckered cheek sound), but let's face reality-you do not see it. If it were a scale model set up outside Kennedy Space Station I could understand it being submitted, but "hey look up in the sky, and they take a picture of yourself, nah......."

 

If you manage to capture it in a small backyard telescope, it's surprising how much you can see. A bit tricky to keep it on track unless you have a good stable tripod, but I argue, seeable indeed.

..but do I need to use my GPS or just my backyard telescope? Geocaching is using a GPS (or compass and topo maps if you like to play that way) to find stuff.

 

The ISS is cool enough on its own to capture the imagination of kids without the bonus of an added smilie to your geocaching.com find count ( and I like finding caches, I like it a lot.)

[+Team Maddie UK]

As it is now quite late in the UK, and we have an event starting tomorrow (an event at which we had hoped to introduce a few more folks to the ISS which wil be passing over us during the duration), I must call it a night.

 

It would appear that my views on this subject are, sadly, very much in the minority. I had hoped that perhaps more folks would have agreed that this rigid application of the rules in a rather exceptional case was unecessary. Maybe I'm just getting old. I grew up in a society where rules were in place just as they are now in all walks of life. However, in that society, we also understood that no rules were perfect and had to be modified 'as you go'. An unusual case that didn't quite match the rules would be treated as an exception.

 

We seem to be throwing away our powers of discretion.

 

Best Regards to All,

Martin

Edited August 29, 2006 by Team Maddie UK

[+two left feet]

If you want to get youngsters involved in the ISS, go through their school and send an application to TALK to the astronauts by Ham radio. Just get a local Ham radio operator involved to set it up.

 

http://www.arrl.org/ARISS/ariss-ap.html

 

NASA info: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/station/reference/radio/

 

Regards,

AB5ON

[+LeoGeo]

I think the good folks at NASA would be absolutely horrified at the suggestion that the ISS is without location.

 

Elsewhere in this thread, somebody else mentioned the space station's velocity, and Uncle Heisenberg tells us that if we know that, then we don't, and can't, know its location. So, science proves it's a locationless cache! (Moreover, it contains a TB, but we don't know whether the name of the TB is "Live Cat" or "Dead Cat.")

[+CO Admin]

As it is now quite late in the UK, and we have an event starting tomorrow (an event at which we had hoped to introduce a few more folks to the ISS which wil be passing over us during the duration), I must call it a night.

 

It would appear that my views on this subject are, sadly, very much in the minority. I had hoped that perhaps more folks would have agreed that this rigid application of the rules in a rather exceptional case was unecessary. Maybe I'm just getting old. I grew up in a society where rules were in place just as they are now in all walks of life. However, in that society, we also understood that no rules were perfect and had to be modified 'as you go'. An unusual case that didn't quite match the rules would be treated as an exception.

 

We seem to be throwing away our powers of discretion.

 

Best Regards to All,

Martin

 

I am sorry that by archiving this cache you can no longer see the ISS. It really is a shame that no one can look at it anymore because the cache is archived. So Geocaching hates children AND has the power to make the ISS invisible. We all know that if you can't get a smiley its not worth doing.

Edited August 29, 2006 by CO Admin

[Neos2]

I asked this in a previous post, but you may have missed it:

 

"If I see the ISS right now and go outside to mark the coordinates (showing my GPS and watch, though I don't wear one) right now, can sbell111 drive here and visit the virtual next weekend?"

 

The answer, is "Yes, perhaps. If he arrived on the right evening at the right time"

 

The ISS flyovers are predictible in advance, and while not all flyovers have the same altitude and brightness, it would be possible for sbell111 to drive over there and see the ISS at some future date from those coords. The cache page gives directions for how to determine the times the ISS is visible from your location (or the location that is nearest you---it is NOT visible from just anywhere in the world).

Edited August 29, 2006 by Neos2

[+TheBeast]

Since there is no fixed location, it is "locationless". A virtual would be a fixed-location place you go to visit.

There is a fixed positon relative to the time, so you could consider it a 4-dimentional positon that is fixed!

[Neos2]

Since there is no fixed location, it is "locationless". A virtual would be a fixed-location place you go to visit.

There is a fixed positon relative to the time, so you could consider it a 4-dimentional positon that is fixed!

May I surmise from your confused-face smiley that you thought you were joking?

 

Turns out you are correct.

[+Kabuthunk]

Going by that logic, one could place a geocache on a bus that goes down it's route at the specific times during the day. Not gonna happen.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

As it is now quite late in the UK, and we have an event starting tomorrow (an event at which we had hoped to introduce a few more folks to the ISS which wil be passing over us during the duration), I must call it a night.

 

It would appear that my views on this subject are, sadly, very much in the minority. I had hoped that perhaps more folks would have agreed that this rigid application of the rules in a rather exceptional case was unecessary. Maybe I'm just getting old. I grew up in a society where rules were in place just as they are now in all walks of life. However, in that society, we also understood that no rules were perfect and had to be modified 'as you go'. An unusual case that didn't quite match the rules would be treated as an exception.

 

We seem to be throwing away our powers of discretion.

 

Best Regards to All,

Martin

 

So now you can't introduce the kiddies to the ISS because they will no longer get a geocaching smilie?

 

Is that really your position?

 

Better gimme a smilie or I aint teachin nobody nuthin?

 

Ed

[+IV_Warrior]

The only thing I'm wondering is how it managed to slip by claiming to be a virtual for so long. It should have been properly changed to a locationless a long time ago, and archived with the rest of them.

[+Team Maddie UK]

I am sorry that by archiving this cache you can no longer see the ISS. It really is a shame that no one can look at it anymore because the cache is archived. So Geocaching hates children AND has the power to make the ISS invisible. We all know that if you can't get a smiley its not worth doing. biggrin.gif

 

The point hidden in you're well received bit of sarcasm is of course perfectly valid.

 

However, it's not always easy these days to get kids interested in anything other than video games etc. At the event we held last year, because we were aware of the virtual and also the timings of the ISS, we distibuted paper copies of both at the event and it garmered a huge amount of interest. The evening that followed the sighting saw many still staring at the heavens and having some great discussions about astronomy and even, in one case, quantum physics. The cache had proved to be a good lead in to something, and I thought it a shame to remove it.

 

Elsewhere in this thread, somebody else mentioned the space station's velocity, and Uncle Heisenberg tells us that if we know that, then we don't, and can't, know its location. So, science proves it's a locationless cache! (Moreover, it contains a TB, but we don't know whether the name of the TB is "Live Cat" or "Dead Cat.")

 

We could ask the Astronauts if it's getting a bit smelly in there yet.

 

Martin

[+Bear Paughs]

No one is preventing you from having such an activity at your event. There's just no smilie to log a "find" on a geocache is all. You can still be free to introduce attendees to something you clearly think is cool and worth knowing about. And there's always Waymarking. In fact, you could educate attendees on how to find the path of the ISS and find other locations at certain points in time that would allow them to make future waymarks. Wouldn't that be even better than one smilie face and one added to ones find count?

[+res2100]

It would appear that my views on this subject are, sadly, very much in the minority. I had hoped that perhaps more folks would have agreed that this rigid application of the rules in a rather exceptional case was unecessary. Maybe I'm just getting old. I grew up in a society where rules were in place just as they are now in all walks of life. However, in that society, we also understood that no rules were perfect and had to be modified 'as you go'. An unusual case that didn't quite match the rules would be treated as an exception.

 

We seem to be throwing away our powers of discretion.

 

Best Regards to All,

Martin

 

Martin, I don't think you are in the minority here, it's just that many people are scared to post their true opinion for fear of being belittled by some people, which seems to be the case with many hot topics in various threads in the forums unfortunately.

 

Early last week as we were going for a walk at night and looking up at the clear sky, I remembered the IIS Virtual cache and was telling my wife about it. A couple days later the subject of this cache came up again during our evening walk and then when I checked on it the next morning I noticed that the cache had just been archived the day before. My wife also enjoys geocaching, but now she can't have the enjoyment of logging this cache. I was a bit disappointed (not angry or upset though) that this excellent example of a UNIQUE cache was archived. I remember whent he guidelines welcomed unique caches (maybe it still says that...not sure) and this one was definitely unique.

 

I have some fond memories of this cache and if this was not a geocache, I never would have ever thought about being able to see the Space Station and neither I nor my son would have learned what we did. Nor would we have gotten the enjoyment and memories that we did, not once, but on a number of occassions because of this cache.

 

When we first discovered this cache existed, we made a list of possible days when we perhaps could find it. Then one day my son and I were at our friend Fred's house and realized that it was about time for the ISS to fly overhead, so we went out into his backyard and tried to figure out where we would see it and where we had to look. We weren't really sure what to expect. Then, there it was a moving light going across the sky and we stood there with keep interest watching it as it passed across the night sky and even managed to take some pictures. Then on another occassion, we were driving about 2 hours home from a caching trip somewhere in the middle of nowhere and noticed the nice clear sky, and knew the ISS was going to fly over soon too, so we pulled over and started looking for it again, and once again there it was. AWESOME! I realize some people may not be excited by this, but we were...on more than one occassion.

 

As for the type of cache this should be, I agree that perhaps it was mislabeled as a Virtual cache, but by no means at all is it a Locationless cache, since there IS a specific and only ONE object that has to be found with this cache. This cache has been in existance for over 3.5 years and if this was intended to be a locationless cache, it had more than ample opportunity to have been changed. If anything, this cache should be a Mystery (? - Question Mark) cache, simple because of it being different and unique.

 

Someone also quoted some guidelines in a post above that moving caches were not allowed...that is true that NEW moving caches are not allowed, but the old ones (and there are several...ie Mars Rover, several Transit caches (London, Vancouver), etc) from what I understand have been grandfathered. As with the ISS cache, it too should have been grandfathered (and it has been up until now, so I don't know why the change in position) in this situation. Either that or these other caches should be archived too, which I hope they won't. I can think of a couple dozen caches that are less of a cache that the ISS cache was.

 

I am sure my wife, son and I will look for the ISS one day again, but because this cache is no longer around, it won't be as high of a priority and sadly, to me I thought that geocaching was about getting out, getting active, get educated about something and even finding the unique, such as the ISS. Sure it's not whether or not you get the smiley or not, but if the cache weren't there, then we wouldn't find out about it.

 

Smilies and numbers are not bad things. My smilies mean nothing to anyone else, but each one of them represent it's own experience and memories to me and my family.

[+sbell111]

Martin, I don't think you are in the minority here, it's just that many people are scared to post their true opinion for fear of being belittled by some people, which seems to be the case with many hot topics in various threads in the forums unfortunately.

I completely disagree. There is no shortage of opinions around here.

... When we first discovered this cache existed, we made a list of possible days when we perhaps could find it. Then one day my son and I were at our friend Fred's house and realized that it was about time for the ISS to fly overhead, so we went out into his backyard and tried to figure out where we would see it and where we had to look. We weren't really sure what to expect. Then, there it was a moving light going across the sky and we stood there with keep interest watching it as it passed across the night sky and even managed to take some pictures. Then on another occassion, we were driving about 2 hours home from a caching trip somewhere in the middle of nowhere and noticed the nice clear sky, and knew the ISS was going to fly over soon too, so we pulled over and started looking for it again, and once again there it was. AWESOME! I realize some people may not be excited by this, but we were...on more than one occassion.

 

As for the type of cache this should be, I agree that perhaps it was mislabeled as a Virtual cache, but by no means at all is it a Locationless cache, since there IS a specific and only ONE object that has to be found with this cache.

You were able to log the cache from more than one place. That means that it wasn't a virtual cache, since virts can't move. That leaves it as an LC.

This cache has been in existance for over 3.5 years and if this was intended to be a locationless cache, it had more than ample opportunity to have been changed. If anything, this cache should be a Mystery (? - Question Mark) cache, simple because of it being different and unique.

It can't be a mystery cache because these require a logbook. Several LCs were mischaracterized as virts. These are all being archived as they are identified.

Someone also quoted some guidelines in a post above that moving caches were not allowed...that is true that NEW moving caches are not allowed, but the old ones (and there are several...ie Mars Rover, several Transit caches (London, Vancouver), etc) from what I understand have been grandfathered.

Moving caches require a logbook. This one doesn't have one. Since it doesn't have a logbook, it can only be a virt or an LC. It can be logged from more than one location, so it isn't a virt. It's an LC.

As with the ISS cache, it too should have been grandfathered (and it has been up until now, so I don't know why the change in position) in this situation. Either that or these other caches should be archived too, which I hope they won't. I can think of a couple dozen caches that are less of a cache that the ISS cache was.

I suspect that it wasn't grandfathered. It simply wasn't identified previously. If you identify similar 'caches', I bet they get archived.

I am sure my wife, son and I will look for the ISS one day again, but because this cache is no longer around, it won't be as high of a priority and sadly, to me I thought that geocaching was about getting out, getting active, get educated about something and even finding the unique, such as the ISS. Sure it's not whether or not you get the smiley or not, but if the cache weren't there, then we wouldn't find out about it.

Were you logging multiple finds? That, also, would suggest to me that this is an LC, not a virt. Edited August 30, 2006 by sbell111

[+baloo&bd]

First I need to say I liked virtuals, webcams and Locationless and feel none should have been moved off of gc.com.

 

Having said that, however, this cache did not fit the criteria for any of those. It was in a group that came to be known as "couch caches". Caches you could do from your couch. While many of them are interesting and may promote some type of educational value, they were/are not geocaches.

 

It's unfortunate you decided to incorrectly title this thread. Some of the angst you are feeling is due to that. Even those of us that supported retaining virtuals and locationless knew this did not fit. In fact, caches like this, I am certain, played some part in the demise of both of those cache types.

 

I looked at your stats, Team Maddie UK, and you said in the original post something about logging it at events, however you have as of yet not logged this. May I ask why it has now become such an issue?

 

Like the post above this one, I don't think anyone is fearful of being belittled on this, you are, however, in the minority on this one.

Edited August 30, 2006 by baloo&bd

[+VeryLost]

So you support the removal of a harmless vitual that can have all sorts of positive fall-out in terms of children etc. And this just for the sake of tryng to adhere to some rather 'fuzzy' rules?

 

You know, it's not as though the ISS itself is gone. All the "positive fall-out" that you refer to is still every bit as available as ever. I went out and looked at the ISS (and the shuttle, as well) recently, and did so without any regard for geocaching, or a GPS, etc.

 

The only thing that has changed, as I understand it, is that a listing on the site is now marked "archived". Big, fat, hairy, whoop. What is the positive fall-out - having people see the ISS for themselves, or clicking "found it" on some web page somewhere?

Edited August 30, 2006 by VeryLost

[janx]

I would prefer to avoid the "think of the children" argument that Mrs. Lovejoy would always spout on the Simpsons.

 

As defined, the ISS was probably a locationless.

 

You could get clever and put it as an event cache. At X time and Y location, the ISS will be visible overhead. So make an event for it, cook up some BBQ, and enjoy logging it.

 

Technically, if you could get an astronaut to bring a cache container (maybe a micro), if they get GPS signal up there ( a matter of being in the broadcast arcs of the satellites), then the ISS would have its own real statically located cache. Technically, all caches move (tectonic plate action is greater in some places than others, so this is sort of the same thing).

 

I think the core problem is gc.com wants to define caches in very specific ways. It is disabling the caches that are outside its bounds. Presumably for technical reasons, hopefully because there is a replacement tool like Waymarking.com. It would be nice if the transition were seamless. I think most folks want a one-stop shop for all their gps game needs, and tend to see geocaching.com as the central hub for the entire hobby. This seems to be at odds with what geocaching.com is doing. Maybe it will all work out.

[+briansnat]

Martin, I don't think you are in the minority here, it's just that many people are scared to post their true opinion for fear of being belittled by some people, which seems to be the case with many hot topics in various threads in the forums unfortunately.

 

So the people here actually agree with Martin that the "cache" should not have been archived, but they were afraid that others who also agreed with Martin, but were afraid to admit it, would belittle them?

[Neos2]

I was saddened to see the ISS geocache archived. I was planning to use in in my Earth Space class next week (Thursday and Friday--it's on my schedule!), when I introduce my new students to satellites amd GPS technology. It was a marvelous cache. If you haven't seen it, you really should take a look at it. When Iowa Tom saw it, he said that it was one of those kinds of caches that you wished you had thought of first. I agree.

 

In order to claim a "find" you had to"

1) figure out where you are located on the planet (GPS, or other means)

2) learn to read a star map

3) learn to use a program that shows the path of the ISS

4) relate the ISS path to the star map

5) figure out when the ISS will be over your location

6) learn how to determine celestial direction, how that coordinates to geospatial direction on Earth (i.e. take the star map and figure out where 15º above the N horizon is for example)

7) watch for the ISS and photograph the passage

8) photograph your coordinates on the GPS to prove that you were along that path at that time (so that white trail--not dot--could have indeed been the ISS)

9) log your "find"

 

So in other words, you had to look for something not just on one coordinate plane, but on two coordinate planes (Earth and sky) at a particular time (which is why I told someone they really weren't joking when they said it was located in the forth dimension). Actually, that's a lot more challenging than looking for a box in the middle of the garden of a place that is only open 2-5 on Tuesdays, but similar.

 

Of course, I can still have my kiddos do the activity, but they can't log it now, not even as a note. Kids DO respond to technology. They grew up on it, and it comes to them like breathing. They also like to get some kind of varification that they have done well. A "smiley" works pretty well with kids, maybe even better than with adults....and it was something they could pull up on the computer at home to show Mom & Dad & Grandpa Sam. I really don't understand all the hatred some folks here feel toward the smiley faces.

 

I can give them a space to "log" it on my webpage at school, but that won't introduce the parents to geocaching (which was a secondary idea of mine--give them an activity they might want to do with the kids)

 

Iowa Tom is trying to get the waymark set up for a similar activity. Ironically, he is running into problems there for the opposite problems as here. Here (geocaching) everyone wants a box with a piece of paper. There (Waymarking) everyone wants one and only one location on Earth to return to time and time again.

 

This truely is a square peg in a round hole. In some ways it's like the former geocache "Where's In a Name" that had multiple locations that fit the bill, but not every location would work. It doesn't fit any of the guidelines exactly. That doesn't mean it isn't good. It is good, it's very very good.

 

I agree that the opening post was a bit on the offensive, and that is part of the reason folks are being so defensive. Can we get past that? It would be great if you guys could jump in and brainstorm ways that this could be made to work on either Waymarking or geocaching. It would be a shame to lose this idea entirely.

[+mtn-man]

I saw that ISS cache before it was archived. At least a few people got actual photos. Those logs did impress me. It was a locationless cache though. I certainly didn't hate to see it go. Sorry about that. And yes, I like virtuals, yadda.

 

The Waymarking category you are talking about came up on peer review last week I think. I voted against it. The way it was written, if you walked out of the 7-11 and saw Jupiter, you could create a waymark for that spot. When you drove home, if you saw Jupiter at a red light, you could mark that spot too. It was written so you could waymark any bright object basically. I would be against this as a Waymarking category, even as just the ISS, and I like space stuff. I am doing Waymarking so I can go see these things that are listed. That is pretty much the point of the site, except maybe the Waymarking games categories. As is, Waymarking something like this is just your personal "eureka" moment. Is that really a web page on the site?

 

Trust me, I know how cool this stuff is. Friday night, I was working outside about an hour after sunset. Overhead I saw an Iridium Flare. They are short lived, they are very bright sometimes (this one was), they are very very cool... but the location I saw it at is not a waymarkable location. I was in a loading dock parking lot behind a building in an industrial complex. Not waymarkable.

 

It does sound like a good topic for the off topic forums. Iridium flares are a cool topic that was floating in this section for quite a long time.

 

(Am I the first person to use "waymarkable" in a sentence? )

[+Kabuthunk]

However, it's not always easy these days to get kids interested in anything other than video games etc. At the event we held last year, because we were aware of the virtual and also the timings of the ISS, we distibuted paper copies of both at the event and it garmered a huge amount of interest. The evening that followed the sighting saw many still staring at the heavens and having some great discussions about astronomy and even, in one case, quantum physics. The cache had proved to be a good lead in to something, and I thought it a shame to remove it.

Umm... y'know... it doesn't HAVE to be an active, working cache for you to still use the exact same technique to show the kids. You can tell them that you can indeed find it like a cache, exact same instructions as seen on the cache page, etc, etc. Unless every single child there has an account with geocaching.com, then there's really no purpose to it being an active cache. If they don't have an account, then they wouldn't receive a "smiley" regardless.

 

Heck, go to a dollar store and get some 'smiley' stickers for them to put in a "geocaching" book that you make for them. Say this book has 20 pre-chosen caches that you've selected. If they find it, they get a sticker. It can be done with the children entirely offline. You can still tell them it's a cache, and they can still get the smiley sticker :}

 

EDIT: Just read some more posts. Same goes for you, Neos2. You can still teach with it, and keep it entirely offline with the use of stickers. It's not like you absolutely NEED to be creating a seperate geocaching.com account for every single child you're working with.

 

If the kids and/or parents want to continue geocaching AFTER this fact, THEN they can create an account on geocaching.com. It just makes sense that way. Why make 50 accounts for kids and 40 or whatever go completely dead after a single cache find? Seems like a wasted username and database space to me.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Kabuthunk

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Instead of logging the ISS, talk to them!

 

NA1ISS (The ham radio sation ID on the ISS) as well as the Space Shuttle almost always have ham (amatuer) radio operators on board and publish a schedule of when they can be reached from where.

 

Nothing fancy required.

 

Get the kids to build a .5 watt 2-meter radio from a kit, make a wire antenna and talk to the astronauts.

 

Place a cache at your radio station's coordinates and give the waypoint to the astronauts.

 

They'll send you a QSL (confirmation of communication) Card with your waypoint and station ID on it - copy that card and stock the cache with them for finders to take.

 

Now that'd be a cool geocache! Cache trade item sent from space? Man, I'd hunt it!

 

THEN you'll spark some serious interest!

 

Google any of the things I have mentioned and see the ISS Fan Club.

 

Ed

73 de W4AGA

Edited August 31, 2006 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+cache_test_dummies]

(Am I the first person to use "waymarkable" in a sentence? )

(Nope . )

[nonaeroterraqueous]

The ISS is still out there? Aren't we supposed to remove all remaining parts of the cache after it is archived? Incidentally, if you do actually get to the cache, will the astronauts let you trade swag? I was thinking of trading a McToy for a space suit or a robotic arm or something. Oh, and, by the way, don't even think of taking this post seriously.

Edited August 31, 2006 by nonaeroterraqueous

[Neos2]

EDIT: Just read some more posts. Same goes for you, Neos2. You can still teach with it, and keep it entirely offline with the use of stickers. It's not like you absolutely NEED to be creating a seperate geocaching.com account for every single child you're working with.

 

If the kids and/or parents want to continue geocaching AFTER this fact, THEN they can create an account on geocaching.com. It just makes sense that way. Why make 50 accounts for kids and 40 or whatever go completely dead after a single cache find? Seems like a wasted username and database space to me.

Oh, it's definitely worthwhile making an account for education. What you say about using a sticker in a booklet is possible, but rather kindergartenish for 11th graders. I have a technology standard that I have to meet with my classes, and trust me, stickerbooks aren't going to meet that requirement! Starting 95 accounts is not quite what I have in mind (that's how many kids are packed into my three sections of Earth Science, by the way).

What I had in mind was more like each class having one account they share. Individual students could possibly log notes (with a cache owner's advance permission), If they wanted to start caching or their parents wanted to, they can start their own regular accounts. The classes will have the accounts anyway, since this is not the only geocaching related thing they will be taking part in over the course of the year. We are also working with Earthcaching org to do some things later this Fall, and they will use an account for some trackables. There are other caches that are very useful for education purposes one way or another. You might be surprised to learn that something as much fun as geocaching can actually be educational, too!

 

They need to be able to log into an account to get coordinates off the site anyway, since the change in that feature. I'm not giving them my account information--I may not even allow them access to the password for the class account (to remove any possibility that a joker in the class could pull some silly stunt)--but this way, I'll know which class to check if there are concerns they need me to tend to.

 

Look at it this way...Having groups of kids use a handful of accounts year after year is better than someone who joins geocaching for a month, picks up three TBs, puts out three caches, and then disappears.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Neos2

[+mtn-man]

(Am I the first person to use "waymarkable" in a sentence? )

(Nope . )

[+Shop99er]

 

Trust me, I know how cool this stuff is. Friday night, I was working outside about an hour after sunset. Overhead I saw an Iridium Flare. They are short lived, they are very bright sometimes (this one was), they are very very cool... but the location I saw it at is not a waymarkable location. I was in a loading dock parking lot behind a building in an industrial complex. Not waymarkable.

 

 

A what??