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Frisbee Rule 1.02


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I’ve been thinking a lot about how so many people criticize other geocachers because of how they play the game. It has been going on a long time, but it seems to have escalated in recent months and I think it has gotten out of hand. So, I propose a new adaptation of “The Frisbee Rule.” The current Frisbee rule applies to placing caches. When determining whether permission is needed in a specific location to place a geocache, one should ask themselves, “Would I play Frisbee here without feeling a need to first ask permission?” That seems like a pretty good guideline. After all, geocaching is really no more intrusive than tossing around a Frisbee.

 

But, I propose the adoption of “Frisbee Rule 1.02.” This rule shall state that whenever faced with the dilemma of whether or not to criticize another geocacher for how they play the game, one should ask themselves, “Would I criticize someone so harshly for how they play Frisbee?” Let’s face it, even though some of us put on a costume that looks like we are about to go into combat every time we “play” geocaching, geocaching is really no more significant of an activity than Frisbee.

 

Would you call someone a cheater or a liar for how they played Frisbee? Would you ridicule someone who feels that throwing a Frisbee back and forth twenty times constitutes playing Frisbee not just once, but twenty times? How harshly would you come down on someone who said that they played Frisbee today, but never actually caught the disk? If someone marks the outside of someone else’s Frisbee with a permanent marker, they have been inconsiderate, sure, but have they really committed a crime against the game of Frisbee?

 

Let’s focus our criticisms on more important things in life and let people “play” geocaching how they choose. Thanks for reading.

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As long as there are no official rules as to how to play, anything that the website lets you do should work. If a new user is allowed to log multiple finds per cache on this site, it must be ok because the site lets them. At least that's how it goes on this brand of geocaching. Nobody says you can't go try another brand of geocaching that is more in line with the type of geocaching you prefer.

 

As far as frisbee rules go, frisbees don't fly really well in a forest, too many trees in the way. Should we ban geocaching in the woods and just hide micros out in the open?

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I propose the adoption of “Frisbee Rule 1.02.” This rule shall state that whenever faced with the dilemma of whether or not to criticize another geocacher for how they play the game, one should ask themselves, “Would I criticize someone so harshly for how they play Frisbee?”

 

An excellent and rational idea. Unfortunately, in the world of textual online communications, excellence and rationality rarely win out over flames and ego. :rolleyes:

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Nice try, but it doesn't make sense. How you play frisbee at a site today, has no effect on how I play tomorrow. How you cache today, can affect my tomorrow if I'm going to the same cache. For example, I see a cache in my area, 4 people with less than 20 finds have logged DNFs. I see you have 200 finds, and "found" the cache yesterday. I'm going to assume the cache is just a tricky hide and the newbies were having trouble and spend more time searching. In reality, you're just "playing your own way" and logged a find when you should have logged a DNF. Your actions cause me to waste my time.

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The world is not gray - there are many things that are black and white. The site guidelines and the geocaching coumminty as a whole have established many of these. Some things are right and some wrong. Like throwing a frisbee with razorblades along the edge and expecting another to catch it. Wrong.

 

You may not agree/ might not like it - may indeed have a better idea but somethings are just right and some things wong. That is just life. We should all be civil and well mannered but we should also make our voices heard.

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The funny thing about this whole Frisbee anology is that it is very simular in history and game-play to geocaching!

 

Originally a Frisbie Baking Company tin pie plate, it was marketed in plastic as a Pluto Platter, and the device and game have evolved over time... and continue to change.

 

There is little if any pure black and white anywhere that humans are involved.

 

Ed

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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Would you call someone a cheater or a liar for how they played Frisbee?

 

I don't know. If we were playing frisbee golf and they were cheating, darn right I'd call them on it. Just tossing a frisbee back and forth is a simple activity, not a game with rules so that analogy doesn't apply to geocaching, which is a game with rules.

 

Would you ridicule someone who feels that throwing a Frisbee back and forth twenty times constitutes playing Frisbee not just once, but twenty times?

 

Ridiculing people isn't nice. If you said you played frisbee 20 times when you really only threw it 20 times, are you falsely representing yourself to others? By doing so, are you trying to make yourself look better than someone else? Are you pretending to have more experience than you really do? Sounds like you're doing nothing more than stroking your own ego. Is any game better with a lot of egotistical self-serving people involved in it?

 

How harshly would you come down on someone who said that they played Frisbee today, but never actually caught the disk?

 

I'd say they attempted to play frisbee, but it sounds like they weren't too sucessful. Just like if they attempted to find a cache, but they didn't sign the log they weren't sucessful. Now if they said they played frisbee when all they did was walk by a frisbee that was stuck up on a roof, that's not playing frisbee.

 

If someone marks the outside of someone else’s Frisbee with a permanent marker, they have been inconsiderate, sure, but have they really committed a crime against the game of Frisbee?

 

If it was my frisbee I'd be pretty ticked off if it were vandalized in such a manner. Whether they committed a crime against the "game of Frisbee" depends on what the rules of that game are. I don't know them. I do know what the rules of geocaching are, and signing the log is one of them.

 

Let’s focus our criticisms on more important things in life and let people “play” geocaching how they choose. Thanks for reading.

 

Because geocaching would be so much better for everyone if it was a game with no rules, just like tossing a frisbee? I disagree. Games without rules aren't games. People who don't play a game by its established rules are known as cheaters. Cheaters make any activity less fun for others.

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...But, I propose the adoption of “Frisbee Rule 1.02.”

 

Great concept, however the abstract analogy appears lost on some folks here.

 

One question before I commit: Are you talking regular sized frisbees or those lame little 1 inch diameter jobbies? <_<

 

(Edited twice for spelling)

Edited by TOIDS R US
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I’ve been thinking a lot about how so many people criticize other geocachers because of how they play the game. It has been going on a long time, but it seems to have escalated in recent months and I think it has gotten out of hand. So, I propose a new adaptation of “The Frisbee Rule.” The current Frisbee rule applies to placing caches. When determining whether permission is needed in a specific location to place a geocache, one should ask themselves, “Would I play Frisbee here without feeling a need to first ask permission?” That seems like a pretty good guideline. After all, geocaching is really no more intrusive than tossing around a Frisbee.

 

But, I propose the adoption of “Frisbee Rule 1.02.” This rule shall state that whenever faced with the dilemma of whether or not to criticize another geocacher for how they play the game, one should ask themselves, “Would I criticize someone so harshly for how they play Frisbee?” Let’s face it, even though some of us put on a costume that looks like we are about to go into combat every time we “play” geocaching, geocaching is really no more significant of an activity than Frisbee.

 

Would you call someone a cheater or a liar for how they played Frisbee? Would you ridicule someone who feels that throwing a Frisbee back and forth twenty times constitutes playing Frisbee not just once, but twenty times? How harshly would you come down on someone who said that they played Frisbee today, but never actually caught the disk? If someone marks the outside of someone else’s Frisbee with a permanent marker, they have been inconsiderate, sure, but have they really committed a crime against the game of Frisbee?

 

Let’s focus our criticisms on more important things in life and let people “play” geocaching how they choose. Thanks for reading.

I Agree but don't use a Permanent Marker on my Caches. a pen will be just fine. a pencil if you must is OK but a pen will do. I don't Poop in you're pool, please don't pee on my cache. <_<

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The funny thing about this whole Frisbee anology is that it is very simular in history and game-play to geocaching!

 

Originally a Frisbie Baking Company tin pie plate, it was marketed in plastic as a Pluto Platter, and the device and game have evolved over time... and continue to change.

 

There is little if any pure black and white anywhere that humans are involved.

 

Ed

you must have played frisbee Golf. i use to play that in Pasadena, CA now that park is used more for Geocaching then Frisbee Golf. and now i play Geocaching and not Frisbee Golf.

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I think the best word is 'guiderules'.....

 

But I still like the OP's post. It's an ANALOGY folks - don't analyse it to death.....

 

Analogies are meant to stimulate discussion, to teach, explain, and illuminate - not merely fill a void on the screen with text. Without analysis and discussion, it's just empty and meaningless words - the OP might as well have simply mashed random keys until he felt he had filled his quota of screenspace for the day.

 

Equally, to be useful for the roles listed above, an analogy must above be relevant - and this one isn't.

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Looks like subterranean needs to hit the trails more often as his last log was JAN 05. Please don't compare frisbee to geocaching or anything else. Frankly, I wonder about you frisbee playing fools!

 

i last picked up a frisbee several months ago. but once i threw one of those worthless AOL CD-roms and my neighbor's dog caught in the air and brought it back.

So my question is this: Can I log a find on my neighbor's dog, and sign him with a Sharpie? And is it still frisbee?

<_<;)

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The analogies are not meant to illustrate the ways in which Frisbee is similar to geocaching. The point is that geocaching is an activity with as much significance as Frisbee. (And of course the only reason I used Frisbee as an analogy was because it’s been used before to make the “permission to hide a cache is rarely needed” argument… by some of the same people who could benefit most from this thread.) I’m attempting to put things in perspective, that’s all. The analogy does not have to be watertight in order to illustrate the point I’m trying to make.

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The analogies are not meant to illustrate the ways in which Frisbee is similar to geocaching. The point is that geocaching is an activity with as much significance as Frisbee. (And of course the only reason I used Frisbee as an analogy was because it’s been used before to make the “permission to hide a cache is rarely needed” argument… by some of the same people who could benefit most from this thread.) I’m attempting to put things in perspective, that’s all. The analogy does not have to be watertight in order to illustrate the point I’m trying to make.

 

Well, I think the analogy is completely flawed even looked at loosely.

 

"Frisbee" is not a game, it is a piece of game equipment. Compared to the hobby of geocaching it could be said the GPS is the "frisbee" of the hobby.

 

The way we used to play as a kids, simply tossing a frisbee back and forth is probably along the lines of simply taking waypoints with a GPS and trying to find the same place again. It's understanding, using, and getting proficient with the piece of game equipment.

 

Now, geocaching is using that piece of equipment to challenge others in a more formal setting. Much like Disc golf is using a game piece, or several, in a more formal setting.

 

In both there are a set of expectations and neither are played in a vacuum.

 

While there is informal play, like mulligans in golf, would anyone seriously include such play in their "official" standings? Ever heard of a mulliganed hole-in-one? I doubt the pro shop hands out plaques for that.

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I hope some of y'all are being purposely obtuse, or carrying this blather on simply because you like argument.

 

Some of this senseless emoting and twisting torturous logic might be understandable if you are just 'playing forums'.

 

All the Frisbee Rule tries to relate is that if people can freely go to a place, play frisbee (or whatever) without attracting undue attention, then geocaching can be assumed to be ok there as well.

 

“Would I play Frisbee here without feeling a need to first ask permission?” is the first step in determining adequate permission.

 

The OP trying to link human behavior to one game or another is of course flawed. Golfers, hunters, frisbee players all have their own rules, guidelines and ethics and are just as resistant to change and hard on percieved cheats as is this community.

 

That said, the basic question I get from the OP is 'Can't we all just get along?'

 

Ed

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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<snip>

 

The OP trying to link human behavior to one game or another is of course flawed. Golfers, hunters, frisbee players all have their own rules, guidelines and ethics and are just as resistant to change and hard on percieved cheats as is this community.

 

That said, the basic question I get from the OP is 'Can't we all just get along?'

 

Ed

 

To answer the question 'Can't we all just get along?' No. It is against human nature.

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I hope some of y'all are being purposely obtuse, or carrying this blather on simply because you like argument.

 

Some of this senseless emoting and twisting torturous logic might be understandable if you are just 'playing forums'.

 

All the Frisbee Rule tries to relate is that if people can freely go to a place, play frisbee (or whatever) without attracting undue attention, then geocaching can be assumed to be ok there as well.

 

“Would I play Frisbee here without feeling a need to first ask permission?” is the first step in determining adequate permission.

 

The OP trying to link human behavior to one game or another is of course flawed. Golfers, hunters, frisbee players all have their own rules, guidelines and ethics and are just as resistant to change and hard on percieved cheats as is this community.

 

That said, the basic question I get from the OP is 'Can't we all just get along?'

 

Ed

i see what what you are saying. as in Hunting if you look for caches in Reseda, CA you too can get shot by a fat guy that has money. kinda like that guy in TX that got shot by the vice prez. but if you play frisbee you're just a stoned out hippie.

 

that sounds about right as for getting along? no some one will always mess it up for the rest of us. so thats not going to happen.

 

as you can see this tread is really not about the game as much as it's about telling some one you are playing wrong. come on people if you can't play nice go find another game to play. like frisbee, cuz we all know most Geocachers are Hippie scum and people that play frisbee are also hippeies. so if you can't play Geocaching nice then go hug a tree and play another game like "Go get lost in the woods" thats a great game to play. if you don't know how to play "Go get lost in the woods" then go out to the woods with out you're GPS and get lost out there real good and then start playing. souds like fun to me.

 

If you don't like how some one is playing then get over it. cuz you will never find some one that plays the way you play this game. i play if you can't find it then you never found it. if some one plays hey i was there but i didn't find it and marks it that they found it. then thats how they play. if you feel you have waisted time looking for the cache thats not there when some one marks that it was there and never found it, then maybe you need to look a new caches and quit looking up old ones. just move on and leave the new guy alone. he will play it the way that makes him happy

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That said, the basic question I get from the OP is 'Can't we all just get along?'

 

I get this too however, the OP's ending line was:

 

Let’s focus our criticisms on more important things in life and let people “play” geocaching how they choose. Thanks for reading.

 

We all know that there are many ways to "play", but there are those very simple guidelines that we need to follow as well. One way of playing for instance is that some cachers like to find a cache and not log anything online. Although the cache owner would have liked to have seen that log, it doesn't cause problems or hurt anything. Of course as a cache owner, i'd rather see the online log but,,, not if it's a lie. If you're going to submit the log then it needs to be truthful. This is an aspect of geocaching where everyone needs to "play" the same since it can and does affect others who geocache!

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as you can see this tread is really not about the game as much as it's about telling some one you are playing wrong. come on people if you can't play nice go find another game to play. like frisbee, cuz we all know most Geocachers are Hippie scum and people that play frisbee are also hippeies. so if you can't play Geocaching nice then go hug a tree and play another game like "Go get lost in the woods" thats a great game to play. if you don't know how to play "Go get lost in the woods" then go out to the woods with out you're GPS and get lost out there real good and then start playing. souds like fun to me.

 

 

:rolleyes:

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Seems like most of the flame wars boil down to two things: competitiveness and vandalism. As for vandalism, that's simple enough; don't ruin anybody's caching experience (or cache), and don't ruin anybody's property with your cache. The other, competitiveness, is a little more tricky. Some of us are competing with each other, due to a somewhat unfortunate number that appears next to our names by each post. There are no control measures for that. None of us start out on the same footing, and the game can never be fair enough for that. Some of us are not playing for competition and don't care how anybody else plays it. People like this drive the competitve people crazy by playing the game however they feel like playing it.

 

Let's boil it down to the original motivation: we always wanted to find a hidden treasure. Realistically, no one's going to hide a real treasure for us to find, so we hide play-treasures for each other to find. Not competitive so far. After having found one, we think that was great and want to do it again. Eventually, each treasure loses the significance it would have had if it had been the only one. Then each treasure becomes nothing more than a number. Numbers don't have value without context, so we have to compare our numbers with other peoples' numbers. See where I'm going with this? The comparison drives competition, and then people start griping about rules and fairness. Nevermind that you just found a very nice cache that I put my heart and soul into making, it's just another number to the competitive folks. Nevermind that I had a very nice time searching for a hidden treasure, because someone I've never met is worried that I'm throwing off the value of his numbers. Does anyone understand what I'm getting at?

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so we have to compare our numbers with other peoples' numbers.

No, we don't. You are free to compare your numbers with whomever you wish, however, I feel no such compulsion. If Briansnat, (or Alabama Rambler, or Doc Ditto, or Mud Frog, et. al), makes a post, I focus on their words, not their find count, or their post count. If someone with 5,000 finds posts "Ammo cans make terrible cache containers", I'm not going to agree with them because they've found more caches than me. Likewise, if someone with 50 finds posts "Gladware makes lousy cache containers", I'll be shouting for an Amen. Numbers are important to some folks, and if that's what brings them joy at the end of the day, so be it. For me, numbers are an irrelevant byproduct of a game I love to play.

 

Does anyone understand what I'm getting at?

 

Actually, I think I do. I was just poking a bit of fun at your choice of words. :rolleyes:

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Let's boil it down to the original motivation: we always wanted to find a hidden treasure. Realistically, no one's going to hide a real treasure for us to find, so we hide play-treasures for each other to find. Not competitive so far. After having found one, we think that was great and want to do it again. Eventually, each treasure loses the significance it would have had if it had been the only one. Then each treasure becomes nothing more than a number. Numbers don't have value without context, so we have to compare our numbers with other peoples' numbers. See where I'm going with this? The comparison drives competition, and then people start griping about rules and fairness. Nevermind that you just found a very nice cache that I put my heart and soul into making, it's just another number to the competitive folks. Nevermind that I had a very nice time searching for a hidden treasure, because someone I've never met is worried that I'm throwing off the value of his numbers. Does anyone understand what I'm getting at?

 

Absolutely. The game is ultimately meaningless, as is every other game and ultimately, everything on earth (as was pointed out by someone of alleged great wisdom many centuries ago , Solomon, in his great literary work "Ecclesiastes").

 

We so greatly desire "meaning" that we artificially inflate the value of everything we do. Therefore to some the larger numbers connote greater meaning and that meaning can only be justified if there is somehow some inherent meaning in the numbers themselves (which there is NOT). Therefore for the numbers to have meaning they must be earned in some quantifiable manner- by some set of rules. Then if those rules are broken or modified, the meaninglessness of the numbers is brought out in the light for all to see that it is:

“Meaningless! Meaningless!”

says the Teacher.

“Utterly meaningless!

Everything is meaningless.”

 

Whether the "meaning" of the sport is the hunt, the box, the numbers, the FTF, or the fresh air and an excuse to get out and walk through the nettles, it is still ultimately meaningless. So just have fun and let's all get along as much as human nature allows.

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I propose the adoption of “Frisbee Rule 1.02.” This rule shall state that whenever faced with the dilemma of whether or not to criticize another geocacher for how they play the game, one should ask themselves, “Would I criticize someone so harshly for how they play Frisbee?”

...

Let’s focus our criticisms on more important things in life and let people “play” geocaching how they choose. Thanks for reading.

This is good. Very good. I like it. :rolleyes:

 

If I understand your intent correctly, FR 1.02 simply restates a basic truth about getting along with others. Whether you call it ...

Common sense Compassion,

Libertarianism,

Being Neighborly,

Live-and-let-Live, or

Walk-a-mile-in-the-Other-Person’s-Shoes,

... it's an idea that has been articulated two thousand different ways for at least two thousand years now.

 

I'm not religious, but I guess the best way I've ever heard it expressed is:

 

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

 

 

In fact, I think I’ll call it the "Golden Frisbee Rule." :anibad:

 

(And if you tell me that sounds too syrupy, I say: "Hey -- stop criticizing the way I play Frisbee!" :( )

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Let's boil it down to the original motivation: we always wanted to find a hidden treasure. Realistically, no one's going to hide a real treasure for us to find, so we hide play-treasures for each other to find. Not competitive so far. After having found one, we think that was great and want to do it again. Eventually, each treasure loses the significance it would have had if it had been the only one. Then each treasure becomes nothing more than a number. Numbers don't have value without context, so we have to compare our numbers with other peoples' numbers. See where I'm going with this? The comparison drives competition, and then people start griping about rules and fairness. Nevermind that you just found a very nice cache that I put my heart and soul into making, it's just another number to the competitive folks. Nevermind that I had a very nice time searching for a hidden treasure, because someone I've never met is worried that I'm throwing off the value of his numbers. Does anyone understand what I'm getting at?

 

Not according to what the puritans have told me. They could care less about the number next your log. Their problem is that you logged a "find" when you didn't find the cache. Let's face - the majority of "found it" logs are when people found a cache. Most of these even meet the puritans' definition: the person looked for a cache that is listed on geocaching.com, found the cache in roughly the same location where the hider had hidden it, signed the log, and replaced the cache. The others may have done somethings the puritans don't like but the cache hider has said go ahead and log it anyhow. Or the hider may have some additional logging requirement. I think the frisbee analogy is meant to address the minor deviations from the puritan requirements. A frisbee puritan may complain if you are not using an official Whamo! flying disk you are not playing frisbee. Disks made by another company are not frisbees. A frisbee puritan may claim that unless you are using an approved throwing technique you are not playing frisbee. Rolling the disk on the ground is not frisbee. The geocaching puritans feel the need to have a definition for geocaching (or for finding geocaches) in order that we don't fall into practices equivalent to rolling frisbees on the ground. Occassionally, TPTB decide to accept parts of this definition. Examples like requiring a log in every cache and the removal of new virtual caches, show that sometimes the definition of what geocaching is does get refined. I personally hope the most important part of the definition continues to be that you should have fun looking for hidden caches, much like most people realize that this is the important part of the definition for playing frisbee. Let's not go adding rules that aren't neccessary.

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Not according to what the puritans have told me. They could care less about the number next your log. Their problem is that you logged a "find" when you didn't find the cache. Let's face - the majority of "found it" logs are when people found a cache. Most of these even meet the puritans' definition: the person looked for a cache that is listed on geocaching.com, found the cache in roughly the same location where the hider had hidden it, signed the log, and replaced the cache. The others may have done somethings the puritans don't like but the cache hider has said go ahead and log it anyhow. Or the hider may have some additional logging requirement. I think the frisbee analogy is meant to address the minor deviations from the puritan requirements. A frisbee puritan may complain if you are not using an official Whamo! flying disk you are not playing frisbee. Disks made by another company are not frisbees. A frisbee puritan may claim that unless you are using an approved throwing technique you are not playing frisbee. Rolling the disk on the ground is not frisbee. The geocaching puritans feel the need to have a definition for geocaching (or for finding geocaches) in order that we don't fall into practices equivalent to rolling frisbees on the ground. Occassionally, TPTB decide to accept parts of this definition. Examples like requiring a log in every cache and the removal of new virtual caches, show that sometimes the definition of what geocaching is does get refined. I personally hope the most important part of the definition continues to be that you should have fun looking for hidden caches, much like most people realize that this is the important part of the definition for playing frisbee. Let's not go adding rules that aren't neccessary.

Nicely Put. :rolleyes:

 

Whats TPTB?

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I think the frisbee analogy is meant to address the minor deviations from the puritan requirements. A frisbee puritan may complain if you are not using an official Whamo!™ flying disk you are not playing frisbee. Disks made by another company are not frisbees. A frisbee puritan may claim that unless you are using an approved throwing technique you are not playing frisbee. Rolling the disk on the ground is not frisbee

 

Its not the minor deviations that would garner criticism from the Frisbee traditionalists. Disregarding the actual brand of the flying disk, if two people are in the park going through the motions of throwing a Frisbee, but there is no actual Frisbee the traditionalists will have a pretty good argument if they point out that the two people are not really playing Frisbee.

 

If the two people want to tell other people that they are playing Frisbee they certainly can. Its their right to say whatever they want, but the traditional Frisbee players also have the right to point out that they are not telling the truth.

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I've played Frisbee in places were I'd never place a cache and I've cached in places where playing Frisbee would be a death sentence. However, in the absence of common sense I can see how the Frisbee guideline can be useful.

 

Glenn, I think you may be a little too literal in your interpretation. What I think the OP is talking about is access to the property. Basically, do you really have permission to be there and would you be comfortable being there for long periods of time.

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I’ve been thinking a lot about how so many people criticize other geocachers because of how they play the game. It has been going on a long time, but it seems to have escalated in recent months and I think it has gotten out of hand. So, I propose a new adaptation of “The Frisbee Rule.” The current Frisbee rule applies to placing caches. When determining whether permission is needed in a specific location to place a geocache, one should ask themselves, “Would I play Frisbee here without feeling a need to first ask permission?” That seems like a pretty good guideline. After all, geocaching is really no more intrusive than tossing around a Frisbee.

 

But, I propose the adoption of “Frisbee Rule 1.02.” This rule shall state that whenever faced with the dilemma of whether or not to criticize another geocacher for how they play the game, one should ask themselves, “Would I criticize someone so harshly for how they play Frisbee?” Let’s face it, even though some of us put on a costume that looks like we are about to go into combat every time we “play” geocaching, geocaching is really no more significant of an activity than Frisbee.

 

Would you call someone a cheater or a liar for how they played Frisbee? Would you ridicule someone who feels that throwing a Frisbee back and forth twenty times constitutes playing Frisbee not just once, but twenty times? How harshly would you come down on someone who said that they played Frisbee today, but never actually caught the disk? If someone marks the outside of someone else’s Frisbee with a permanent marker, they have been inconsiderate, sure, but have they really committed a crime against the game of Frisbee?

 

Let’s focus our criticisms on more important things in life and let people “play” geocaching how they choose. Thanks for reading.

 

It is a great idea, unfortunately as you can see there are people who will disagree with you. I would compare it to the 'World Peace' analogy. World peace would be great, unfortunately, there are those that think world peace is only achievable if everybody plays by their rules. One person's idea would be everybody smiling and giving flowers to each other. Then there are others that believe that there can only be world peace if you make them supreme ruler of the world. As long as there are people passionate about something there won't be a whole lot of peace.

 

Look at golf. Very old sport with very well defined rules, however, people cheated at it so much they legallized it and call it a Mulligan. What chance does Geocaching stand with guidelines. All the guidelines pretty much ask people to do is obey the law (yes, tresspassing is against the law), be safe or warn others of possible risks and sign the log.

 

Me personally, people can play any way they want, as can I. Hide and hunt any type of cache you want, sign the log any way you want, look for it any way you want, but if you sign the outside of my cache or try to post a find because you think it is missing I'll delete your find.

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That said, the basic question I get from the OP is 'Can't we all just get along?'

 

 

Let’s focus our criticisms on more important things in life and let people “play” geocaching how they choose. Thanks for reading.

 

This reminds me alot of that liberal crap they teach kids., "Self esteem is far more important than self discipline." In other words, "Johnny hid a crappy cache in a trash dump, but no one wants to hurt his feelings by mentioning their displeasure in their online logs." Or a school analogy, "Jimmy didn't perform up to standards in school, but we are going to make him student of the month to boost his self esteem. Those kids who do their homework, and get good grades won't be affected by poor little Jimmy."

 

In the real world cachers who do the right thing are quite often affected by "lying about their find cachers."

Cachers who "find" missing caches affect other cachers. Cachers that only write "self esteam" logs, or positive logs for crappy caches, often affect future cachers. When cachers review the logs, and see that all the found it logs, are positive, they falsely assume the cache is in fact nice, but the reality is different.

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Seems like most of the flame wars boil down to two things: competitiveness and vandalism. As for vandalism, that's simple enough; don't ruin anybody's caching experience (or cache), and don't ruin anybody's property with your cache. The other, competitiveness, is a little more tricky. Some of us are competing with each other, due to a somewhat unfortunate number that appears next to our names by each post. There are no control measures for that. None of us start out on the same footing, and the game can never be fair enough for that. Some of us are not playing for competition and don't care how anybody else plays it. People like this drive the competitve people crazy by playing the game however they feel like playing it.

 

Let's boil it down to the original motivation: we always wanted to find a hidden treasure. Realistically, no one's going to hide a real treasure for us to find, so we hide play-treasures for each other to find. Not competitive so far. After having found one, we think that was great and want to do it again. Eventually, each treasure loses the significance it would have had if it had been the only one. Then each treasure becomes nothing more than a number. Numbers don't have value without context, so we have to compare our numbers with other peoples' numbers. See where I'm going with this? The comparison drives competition, and then people start griping about rules and fairness. Nevermind that you just found a very nice cache that I put my heart and soul into making, it's just another number to the competitive folks. Nevermind that I had a very nice time searching for a hidden treasure, because someone I've never met is worried that I'm throwing off the value of his numbers. Does anyone understand what I'm getting at?

 

I can agree with this.

 

One more thought:

 

Traditionally, a game is something where people compete, and one team or person wins.

Execption 1: Solitaire is a game where you play by yourself. You might win, you might lose. Nobody else loses or wins.

Execption 2: RolePlaying Games (RPG) traditionally don't have a "loser" as part of the game design, the goal is the playing, not winning.

 

If geocaching is a game, under traditional meaning, then the goal is to do better than somebody else. An outside observer might discern that the metric used is number of finds logged.

 

Since each cacher has a different starting point and has no defined end point, it makes for a poorly designed competition, however. Normally, all the players start at the same time, or have the same amount of time to achieve the goal (or are measured on the time used to achieve a goal). Geocaching doesn't have this, thus it fails to provide a uniform means of comparing results (and thereby discerning a winner).

 

Thus, I have to conclude, that it's not a game. Not unless you liken it to RPGs, which don't have a clear winner, but people play it anyway. Either that, or its a poorly designed game. And by poorly designed, I mean from a game design standpoint, not as disparagement on the activity itself.

 

Maybe Geocaching has something in common with birdwatching. I'm not familiar with it, but I believe the objective of a birdwatcher is to identify as many species as you can. But that's not a game either. It's an activity. Yes, you can cheat at an activity. And there may be ripple effects of that cheating on others (illgotten elevated social status, misdirection of others trying to use the cheaters "expertise"). But by and large, the effect is localized, and isn't the end of the world. Like birdwatching, there are some participants who like getting high numbers, and comparing their numbers to others. Humans are a competitive lot. However, trying to be competitive with an activity that wasn't designed to be a game leads to misleading results. One should note, you could design a game, using elements of the activity, but that does not mean the original activity is a game.

 

nonaeroterraqueous and subterranean's posts are pointing out that folks may be treating geocaching as a game, and treating it as a competition, rather than an activity. I think each one of us may be guilty of this to various extents and at various times. It's in our nature. Our treatment of the activity as a game or competition is altering the way we treat the activity and each other. It would be wise to consider whether we're doing harm or good to both, in doing so.

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Maybe Geocaching has something in common with birdwatching.

 

You may have found a good analogy. A birdwatching cheater may claimed to have seen a rare ivory billed woodpecker where there isn't one. briansnat's birdwatching friend will drive 250 miles to see the ivory bill woodpecker only to find out it really isn't there. So don't say cheating at birdwatching doesn't hurt anyone :P

 

On the other hand the birdwatcher may post that he thinks he saw an ivory billed but can't be sure. It's likely that briansnat's friend would drive the 250 miles on the chance that there is an ivory billed woodpecker. But he won't be upset that the other birdwatcher lied.

 

Tell the truth in your logs. If you didn't find the cache don't claim a find. You may want to count a find that the puritans wouldn't allow. I think that is fine but at least put the facts in your online log. If you claimed a find because the log was missing or wet, I would know to bring a replacement log. If you claimed a find because you found the empty chewed up cache container, I could bring a replacement (after contacting the cache owner). If you claimed a find because you thought the cache was missing and you left a replacement cache, I might spend time looking for both containers or may decide not to claim a find on the replacement unless I can confirm with the owner that the replacement is in the correct location and a similar type container. If you claimed a find where the owner told you that you could change your DNF to a find, I could still look for the cache but would probably not spend as much time on it. Unlike the puritans, I won't tell you what you can log as a find. But I do agree with briansnat on one point - Don't lie.

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I’ve been thinking a lot about how so many people criticize other geocachers because of how they play the game. It has been going on a long time, but it seems to have escalated in recent months and I think it has gotten out of hand. So, I propose a new adaptation of “The Frisbee Rule.”

 

My only objection is that, no matter how hard I snap my wrist, I just can't get the .30 cal. ammo can to curve like a Frisbee.....

 

 

 

:P

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You may want to count a find that the puritans wouldn't allow.

Just for the record, I believe the correct word is "purist." A Puritan was a New England settler. I just wanted to clarify this before it catches on.

nice, but here the correct word is Puritan.

 

now where's that dadgum .jpg...

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Not according to what the puritans have told me. They could care less about the number next your log. Their problem is that you logged a "find" when you didn't find the cache. Let's face - the majority of "found it" logs are when people found a cache. Most of these even meet the puritans' definition: the person looked for a cache that is listed on geocaching.com, found the cache in roughly the same location where the hider had hidden it, signed the log, and replaced the cache. The others may have done somethings the puritans don't like but the cache hider has said go ahead and log it anyhow. Or the hider may have some additional logging requirement. I think the frisbee analogy is meant to address the minor deviations from the puritan requirements. A frisbee puritan may complain if you are not using an official Whamo! flying disk you are not playing frisbee. Disks made by another company are not frisbees. A frisbee puritan may claim that unless you are using an approved throwing technique you are not playing frisbee. Rolling the disk on the ground is not frisbee. The geocaching puritans feel the need to have a definition for geocaching (or for finding geocaches) in order that we don't fall into practices equivalent to rolling frisbees on the ground. Occassionally, TPTB decide to accept parts of this definition. Examples like requiring a log in every cache and the removal of new virtual caches, show that sometimes the definition of what geocaching is does get refined. I personally hope the most important part of the definition continues to be that you should have fun looking for hidden caches, much like most people realize that this is the important part of the definition for playing frisbee. Let's not go adding rules that aren't neccessary.

Nicely Put. :)

 

Whats TPTB?

The Powers That Be

 

sorry it took so long in answering this one, I was checking the ruleguides to see if I could use my +6 mace of acronym for answering in an unsheltered forum. :unsure:

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Sadly, nobody has actually addressed what the OP's point actually was. Instead tons of people took to comparing how frisbee wasn't like geocaching.

 

So I'll bite. The OP says basically, if you can frisbee there, you can geocache there.

 

If I was a park manager, I might completely disagree. Normally, when folks come to the park, they bring stuff, they do stuff, they take their stuff and leave (except for litter, or what they put in the cans, but there's a process in place for that). A hider leaves something behind intentionally. As a park manager, I might not like what he left behind or where he put it. I might be clueless to its presence, until it gets muggled (or worse, bomb scare). I might not like caches in certain spots because I'm encouraging plant growth there (or some other woodsy reason).

 

If the cache were there legitimately, then I as a park manager wouldn't care, as the finder activitity is just as harmless as any other legal activity that occurs in the park (frisbee included). You could take to walking the same route through the brush everyday at my park, or a bunch of finders could inadvertently make a trail to the cache. The effect is sort of the same (though trail making to specific points is more likely to happen by cachers than a bunch of folks who decide to make a trail for the heck of it).

 

Some of the would you play frisbee here rule of thumb make sense. But it doesn't fully answer all the concerns land managers or muggles may have.

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You could take to walking the same route through the brush everyday at my park, or a bunch of finders could inadvertently make a trail to the cache. The effect is sort of the same (though trail making to specific points is more likely to happen by cachers than a bunch of folks who decide to make a trail for the heck of it).

 

It's called a geotrail and I spot them at almost every cache. Even my remote cache, up North, that has only been visited a few times in the last year, now has a faint geotrail leading you to it. They are easy to find if you know what you are looking for, and it is one of my search techniques when I am out and about.

 

getting close,

ah, there's the geotrail,

ah, there's the cache

repeat.

 

I think most "seasoned" cachers know the harm we do, but like to invoke the frisbee rule to help propogate the sport. which goes into a whole 'nuther thread on geosaturation or microspew.

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How could a social trail develop if the cache only get's visited a few times per year. I suspect that it is actually a game trail.

 

Personally, I rarely see a social trail develop to those caches that are set away from the 'formal' trail. It is the ones close to the trail that develop paths.

Edited by sbell111
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