Sticker On Stop Sign

[+SG-MIN]

Perhaps I should not bring this up yet because my cache is still being reviewed, but I really wanted your opinions.

 

Is putting a removable sticker on a the back of a stop sign considered: "deface(ing) public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method"

 

I originally had the idea for a stage in a cache that took people to a remote stop sign (it fits the theme of the cache - trust me on this one). I emailed one of the reviewers who had published my previous cache to ask if I could write with a sharpie the coordinates of the next stage. I received an email back stating that according to this website writing on the sign constituted vandalism, but that a sticker would be okay.

 

Upon submission of my cache, which is quite complex and detailed, the new reviewer refused to publish the cache because to him/her the sticker constituted vadalism.

 

I recognize there are several other options I could use, but because of the nature and theme of the cache, a small (2" x 3") sticker is the ideal medium.

 

What are your thoughts? Is a removeable sticker on the back of a stop sign defacing property?

[CacheNCarryMA]

I would consider it defacing public property. The problem is easily remedied.

 

Use a magnet or write the coords on a small out-of-place rock at the base of the sign.

Edited June 13, 2006 by CacheNCarryMA

[+SG-MIN]

There are several options I COULD utilize - I am curious, if the method I used is legal.

[+dkwolf]

Whether or not it's considered defacing public property in a legal perspective, it would not be recieved in good faith by the general public. In other words, it would potentially give someone who has never heard of geocaching the idea that we are vandals and disrespectful of public property. I would suggest finding another way to get the information you need across.

[+JMBIndy]

Perhaps I should not bring this up yet because my cache is still being reviewed, but I really wanted your opinions.

 

Is putting a removable sticker on a the back of a stop sign considered: "deface(ing) public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method"

 

I originally had the idea for a stage in a cache that took people to a remote stop sign (it fits the theme of the cache - trust me on this one). I emailed one of the reviewers who had published my previous cache to ask if I could write with a sharpie the coordinates of the next stage. I received an email back stating that according to this website writing on the sign constituted vandalism, but that a sticker would be okay.

 

Upon submission of my cache, which is quite complex and detailed, the new reviewer refused to publish the cache because to him/her the sticker constituted vadalism.

 

I recognize there are several other options I could use, but because of the nature and theme of the cache, a small (2" x 3") sticker is the ideal medium.

 

What are your thoughts? Is a removeable sticker on the back of a stop sign defacing property?

 

Obviously you are getting mixed signals from the reviewers. I would suggest e-mailing the one who nixed your idea with a copy of the e-mail from the reviewer who said it would be okay. This sit back and watch them duke it out. I've seen a lot worse on stop signs, front and back, so I can't see why a REMOVEABLE sticker shouldn't be permitted on the back of the sign.

 

Good luck.

 

[+ParrotRobAndCeCe]

 

What are your thoughts? Is a removeable sticker on the back of a stop sign defacing property?

 

Maybe, maybe not. But it is almost surely against the law either way.

[+SG-MIN]

I did forward the email. Either way, the reviewers need to be on the same page.

[+The Jester]

I would consider it defacing public property. The problem is easily remedied.

 

Use a magnet or write the coords on a small out-of-place rock at the base of the sign.

My question is how is a magnet different from a removable sticker? To some looking at it, they would look very much alike - if one is defacing, isn't the other also?

[+Renegade Knight]

If the sticker comes off, it's not really defacing the sign.

 

If the sticker is blatant or obvious and ugly too boot, while it may not be defacing the sign it may not exactly be desirable.

 

The front of the sign would be a big no no.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Since an adhesive label on the back of a street sign is still rather obvious to a casual observer, and to a maintenance worker, and could therefore be considered to be defacing property, there are some reviewers who will not allow such placements. On the other hand, if it were a small adhesive label placed deep inside a storm drain, then it would be totally out of sight of casual observers and most maintenance workers, and even if discovered, would likely be considered completely inocuous in light of the harsh environment (dirt, insects, dirty water, debris, litter, etc.) and such a label would more likely meet with acceptance. For posting informational stages on signs and sign posts in public places where an adhesive label might be a bit obvious and offensive, many folks employ a small piece of flexible magnetic sheeting, ribbon or strip, the same kind of flexible magnetic sheet used to make magnetic business cards for refrigerator doors, etc. This type of material is readly available on the web and from craft shops. Now, most stop signs are constructed of aluminum and therefore a magnetic strip will not attach to such a sign, but most sign poles are made of ferrous (iron-bearing) material and the magnetic strip will stick to such objects.

[CacheNCarryMA]

I would consider it defacing public property. The problem is easily remedied.

 

Use a magnet or write the coords on a small out-of-place rock at the base of the sign.

My question is how is a magnet different from a removable sticker? To some looking at it, they would look very much alike - if one is defacing, isn't the other also?

 

I overlooked the "removable" part. Are we talking "post-it note"? How can it be removable and weatherproof?

[CacheNCarryMA]

How about putting up your own stop sign, then technically it would be private property.

[+BlueDeuce]

I would consider it defacing public property. The problem is easily remedied.

 

Use a magnet or write the coords on a small out-of-place rock at the base of the sign.

My question is how is a magnet different from a removable sticker? To some looking at it, they would look very much alike - if one is defacing, isn't the other also?

 

I overlooked the "removable" part. Are we talking "post-it note"? How can it be removable and weatherproof?

 

I like the magnet idea (one of the thin strip ones)

 

The adhesive could be lost with a sticker. And if a cop or maintenance worker found they would probably pick it off and go “Oh, it’s a magnet” and stick it back on. With a sticker they would probably say, “Hmm, a sticker” and take it with them.

[+SG-MIN]

the sticker is made from bumper sticker material that I picked up at a sign store.

 

It is a small sticker located on the bottom of the sign next to the post. It is at a T in the road, so the only people would could see it would be someone who for one reason or the other would be walking next to it. It is located in a very desolate area of the county.

 

The only information on it is:

 

3609756

08612348

GCW78K

 

The casual observer would have no idea what this meant, but a geocacher would know what to do.

By the way, all the number above are made up.

[+Criminal]

You could attach a big sign to a nearby phone pole with galvanized nails and then leave it up long after the cache is gone. Oh wait, only people having yard sales are allowed to do that.

Edited June 13, 2006 by Criminal

[PCFrog]

3609756

08612348

GCW78K

 

Being the only info the sticker, this would be no larger than a simple address label.

 

It would not be noticed by a large majority of people on the back of a sign not to mention a maintenance worker (Didn’t know stop signs get much maintenance) would probably assume that this was some county, or manufacture marking.

 

But as you said is it defacing. Well I lean to both ways and have no set answer – part me says yes while the other says only defacing if people notice and so many people are oblivious to their surrounding that no one would notice.

Edited June 13, 2006 by PCFrog

[+SG-MIN]

You all are taking about the magnet. Legally, I don't see the differance between a sticker, a magnet, or for that matter any of the thousands of micros that are inherently visible to the public.

 

If visability is the crux of the problem, we are all in trouble.

[+SG-MIN]

Here is what Webster says defacing is:

1 : to mar the external appearance of : injure by effacing significant details <deface an inscription>

2 : IMPAIR

3 obsolete : DESTROY

 

In the case of a small sticker on the back of a stop sign I do not see how any of these imply. There would not be any altering of the sign.

[+Runaround]

You could attach a big sign to a nearby phone pole with galvanized nails and then leave it up long after the cache is gone. Oh wait, only people having yard sales are allowed to do that.

 

Around here they issue citations for that.

 

In one recent case a woman was posting political signs expressing her dislike of the current president. Two police officers approached her, reminded her of the law, and told her to remove the signs. She refused. The first cop started writing two citations, one for posting the signs and one for ignoring the officer. The other officer started to remove the sign. That's when the lady grabbed the cop to try and stop him. That got her 60 days.

[+BlueDeuce]

You all are taking about the magnet. Legally, I don't see the differance between a sticker, a magnet, or for that matter any of the thousands of micros that are inherently visible to the public.

 

If visability is the crux of the problem, we are all in trouble.

 

At least to me, a sticker implies permanence, a magnet doesn't.

Edited June 13, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+sbell111]

Some time ago, I found a multi that used a sticker on a metal stop light pole as a redirector. The sticker was about the size of an address label, metalic and looked quite official.

 

I don't see this as defacing anything. The sticker would not be on the front of the sign and it easily removed if the cache is archived.

Edited June 13, 2006 by sbell111

[Jake - Team A.I.]

If you find yourself driving past this sign, stop and check out the back.

 

[+Ed & Julie]

On of the Community Service punishments for people arrested on St. Pats day in my town is to go around and remove stickers from public City signs. I watch them romove dozens of stickers a day when we do that program.

 

In my city, they are definatly concidered a defacement.

 

Why not find a sign on private property and get permission to put your sticker on it?

 

Ed

[+Jen and Andy]

the sticker is made from bumper sticker material

You're calling bumper sticker material "removable"?

 

Calling that removable is like calling paint or permanent marker "removable". Sure, you could technically remove it... scraping for a while with a blade or using chemicals... but it's not anywhere near as temporary or truly removable as a magnet.

 

So no, if it were me, I definitely wouldn't equate the two.

Edited June 13, 2006 by Jen and Andy

[+SG-MIN]

the sticker is made from bumper sticker material

You're calling bumper sticker material "removable"?

 

Calling that removable is like calling paint or permanent marker "removable". Sure, you could technically remove it... scraping for a while with a blade or using chemicals... but it's not anywhere near as temporary or truly removable as a magnet.

 

So no, if it were me, I definitely wouldn't equate the two.

 

On metal it is as easy to remove as a magnet - I had to test it in order to make sure it would be weatherproof. With my (a guy's) fingernails, it is easily removed. Trust me on this one.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

You may find that a question like this is subject to interpretation - I would send it to contact@Groundspeak.com for a definitive ruling, as it should be well-defined by them. Solves a lot of argument!

 

It will be interesting to get a ruling on it, as there are quite a lot of these out there!

[+SG-MIN]

I am waiting for the responce from the reviewer. I will keep you all posted.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I am waiting for the responce from the reviewer. I will keep you all posted.

 

Can't tell you what to do, of course, but leaving it to a Reviewer's interpretation won't help; as you have seen Reviewers may have different ideas on this.

 

Your Reviewer may say it's fine, mine may deny it. My knowing that your Reviewer approved it won't help me.

 

Why not get an answer direct from Groundspeak? That takes all the interpretation out of it.

[+SG-MIN]

I still plan on waiting for a reply from my reviewer. Even if the issue does need to go higher up the line, I belive the reviewers in the area need time to puzzle over it before anyone goes over their heads.

[+gof1]

I still plan on waiting for a reply from my reviewer. Even if the issue does need to go higher up the line, I belive the reviewers in the area need time to puzzle over it before anyone goes over their heads.

 

This reply is the single most sensible thing I have seen on the forums in a week!

[+CheshireFrog]

If the sticker comes off, it's not really defacing the sign.

 

If the sticker is blatant or obvious and ugly too boot, while it may not be defacing the sign it may not exactly be desirable.

 

The front of the sign would be a big no no.

 

Agreed, but two I've seen in this area have the sticker on the post, which I think removes much of the controversy.

[+Torry]

....

 

What are your thoughts? Is a removeable sticker on the back of a stop sign defacing property?

 

Yes. Next question.

[+Airmapper]

I don't see anything wrong with it, what is a sticker, I've seen stop signs completely stolen, used for target practice, and spray painted, a sticker on the back side is nothing. Around here it is unlikely anyone besides a cacher will even see it.

[+Harry Dolphin]

You could attach a big sign to a nearby phone pole with galvanized nails and then leave it up long after the cache is gone. Oh wait, only people having yard sales are allowed to do that.

 

Sarcasm noted. In New Jersey, it is against the law to atach anything to a utility pole. It's a safety issue with utility workers. That being said, there are too any nails in the local telephone poles to attach another sign...

[+Team JSAM]

Is putting a removable sticker on a the back of a stop sign considered: "deface(ing) public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method"

 

IMO: yes to me it does not matter weather its a monument or a sign you are making somthing different for no reason, and it makes things look tacky.

[+Team JSAM]

I don't see anything wrong with it, what is a sticker, I've seen stop signs completely stolen, used for target practice, and spray painted, a sticker on the back side is nothing. Around here it is unlikely anyone besides a cacher will even see it.

 

Just becasue someone else does something wrong does not give you the right to also do somthing wrong, I understand that its just a sticker that most likely only cachers will see but things like this start bad trends.

[+briansnat]

You could attach a big sign to a nearby phone pole with galvanized nails and then leave it up long after the cache is gone. Oh wait, only people having yard sales are allowed to do that.

 

Sarcasm noted. In New Jersey, it is against the law to atach anything to a utility pole. It's a safety issue with utility workers. That being said, there are too any nails in the local telephone poles to attach another sign...

 

Well here is one person who was threatened with a fine because of a yard sale sign affixed to a telephone pole.

 

Still, I think there is a big difference between spraypainting Borf across the front of a stop sign or on a telephone pole and discreetly putting coordinates on a piece of duct tape on the back of a sign or at the base of a pole

[+SG-MIN]

If the sticker comes off, it's not really defacing the sign.

 

If the sticker is blatant or obvious and ugly too boot, while it may not be defacing the sign it may not exactly be desirable.

 

The front of the sign would be a big no no.

 

Agreed, but two I've seen in this area have the sticker on the post, which I think removes much of the controversy.

 

I thought about this one on the way home. If it is defacing it is defacing regardless of whether it is on the sign or on the post. If a magnet is okay because it is easily removeable, a sticker should be the same way. If it is the "tacky" or "visable" or "bad precedent" we are talking about, any geocaching game peice that is ever visable could be seen as equally tacky, or as setting a bad precedent. (Is a micro on a guardrail defacing?)

 

I hate having to get into the nit-picky nature of these cache placements, but as is, there are too many grey areas. Remember this whole post came about because I followed the advice of one reviewer, but was shot down for the placement by another reveiwer. IMHO, items like this should be covered in reviewer training even if the official rules are not posted. Lord knows we don't need any more rules.

[+Torry]

What I think, the OP thinks or any other poster thinks... or feels ... or believes.. is not significant.. It IS an act of vandalism in the eyes of the municipality or government entity that owns the sign. Period.

 

The morality or ethics of commiting some small act of vandalism is debatable but the actuality of it being a crime is not.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Torry

[+SG-MIN]

What I think, the OP thinks or any other poster thinks... or feels ... or believes.. is not significant.. It IS an act of vandalism in the eyes of the municipality or government entity that owns the sign. Period.

 

The morality or ethics of commiting some small act of vandalism is debatable but the actuality of it being a crime is not.

 

Let's stir the pot...

 

Lets say I have permission from the road department. The rules of Groundspeak still stand...

 

Do we still have an issue?

[+Torry]

What I think, the OP thinks or any other poster thinks... or feels ... or believes.. is not significant.. It IS an act of vandalism in the eyes of the municipality or government entity that owns the sign. Period.

 

The morality or ethics of commiting some small act of vandalism is debatable but the actuality of it being a crime is not.

 

Let's stir the pot...

 

Lets say I have permission from the road department. The rules of Groundspeak still stand...

 

Do we still have an issue?

 

No.

But you won't get it.

 

Imagine the advertising possibilities if the local highway department were to sell advertising on their stop signs.

 

The "This median adopted by ... " signs get obnoxious enough after a while in some towns. Just imagine if you were to pull up to that red hexagon and it were to read,

"Got an itch?

STOP

it with Preparation H"

[+SG-MIN]

What I think, the OP thinks or any other poster thinks... or feels ... or believes.. is not significant.. It IS an act of vandalism in the eyes of the municipality or government entity that owns the sign. Period.

 

The morality or ethics of commiting some small act of vandalism is debatable but the actuality of it being a crime is not.

 

Let's stir the pot...

 

Lets say I have permission from the road department. The rules of Groundspeak still stand...

 

Do we still have an issue?

 

No.

But you won't get it.

 

Imagine the advertising possibilities if the local highway department were to sell advertising on their stop signs.

 

The "This median adopted by ... " signs get obnoxious enough after a while in some towns. Just imagine if you were to pull up to that red hexagon and it were to read,

"Got an itch?

STOP

it with Preparation H"

 

EDITED: To remove hasty comments.

 

If a 2" x 3" sticker on the back of a stop sign that noone will see is equivelent to blatent advertising on the front of the sign, then a micro on a guard rail is equivelent to a self-storage unit.

 

Hopefully we will get this resolved through the proper channels so there is no guess work and assumptions.

Edited June 14, 2006 by SG-MIN

[+altmizzle]

"Got an itch?

STOP

it with Preparation H"

 

Yes, it would get annoying. But the first time I saw this particular one, I would laugh and laugh and laugh.

[+Torry]

We play this game in the shadows of the mainstream and that's one of the things I enjoy about it.

 

Keep in mind that this game is nothing but an act of organized littering. We tend to leave our caches on public property and expect them to be there for years to come.

 

It behooves us to try and stay under the radar and unnoticeable. We've already seen the problems that arise when the public misconstrues what we're doing. The situation with cemetery caches in many areas and the restricitions being placed on our activities by many of the parks.

 

You, I and Jeremy Irish may agree that a magnetic Hide-A-Key on a guardrail is harmless. The highway department might agree with us. They'll still throw it away if they find it but they won't call the cops. Putting a sticker on a sign is an act of vandalism whether it's to provide coordinates to a cache or plug a new bar band. If you're caught putting it on there you could be cited and fined.

 

This game butts heads with the non-playing populace on a regular basis and has evolved to lessen the impact. The "no ammo boxes under bridges" rule is a good common-sense example. The "no porn in caches" rule is another. We as players need to keep this in mind at all times as we enjoy this game/sport/hobby/activity/etc. and strive to keep a low profile.

[+Bluegrass Reviewer]

I am waiting for the responce from the reviewer. I will keep you all posted.

 

My response, for all who are interested:

 

Greetings SG-MIN,

 

Thank you for your patience. I have viewed your forum topic discussion on this issue. Since I am a conservative reviewer, I still do not feel the sticker is appropriate. As you have conflicting answers from two reviewers, I will leave this portion of the cache hunt up to your discretion. If you do decide to go with the sticker and I get even one complaint, I will have to archive the cache. I appreciate the amount of thought and planning that you have put into this hide. Please let me know what you decide about this stage either way. I will begin the mapping process tonight, and if all goes well it may be published as early as tomorrow.

 

Sincerely,

 

Bluegrass Reviewer

Geocaching.com Volunteer

[+SG-MIN]

You, I and Jeremy Irish may agree that a magnetic Hide-A-Key on a guardrail is harmless. The highway department might agree with us. They'll still throw it away if they find it but they won't call the cops. Putting a sticker on a sign is an act of vandalism whether it's to provide coordinates to a cache or plug a new bar band. If you're caught putting it on there you could be cited and fined.

 

Torry,

 

We get back to my original question (and then I promised my wife I was heading to bed). What makes the sticker vandalism? That is a serious question!

 

Let consider a few variables: It is possible to have permission; it is removable, it is not seen in 99.99% or circumstances.

 

I am asking this question to you with no sarcasm or spite. I want to know what makes it an automatic act of vandalism in your book when the reviewer who recommend I do it did not see it that way.

[+Ed & Julie]

I am waiting for the responce from the reviewer. I will keep you all posted.

 

My response, for all who are interested:

 

Greetings SG-MIN,

 

Thank you for your patience. I have viewed your forum topic discussion on this issue. Since I am a conservative reviewer, I still do not feel the sticker is appropriate. As you have conflicting answers from two reviewers, I will leave this portion of the cache hunt up to your discretion. If you do decide to go with the sticker and I get even one complaint, I will have to archive the cache. I appreciate the amount of thought and planning that you have put into this hide. Please let me know what you decide about this stage either way. I will begin the mapping process tonight, and if all goes well it may be published as early as tomorrow.

 

Sincerely,

 

Bluegrass Reviewer

Geocaching.com Volunteer

 

That makes sense ...not.

 

"...I still do not feel the sticker is appropriate"

 

yet you are still going to publish it???

 

If you are getting conflicting messages from different reviewers, why not ask The Man In Charge for the ultimate ruling?

 

Ed

[+SG-MIN]

I am waiting for the responce from the reviewer. I will keep you all posted.

 

My response, for all who are interested:

 

Greetings SG-MIN,

 

Thank you for your patience. I have viewed your forum topic discussion on this issue. Since I am a conservative reviewer, I still do not feel the sticker is appropriate. As you have conflicting answers from two reviewers, I will leave this portion of the cache hunt up to your discretion. If you do decide to go with the sticker and I get even one complaint, I will have to archive the cache. I appreciate the amount of thought and planning that you have put into this hide. Please let me know what you decide about this stage either way. I will begin the mapping process tonight, and if all goes well it may be published as early as tomorrow.

 

Sincerely,

 

Bluegrass Reviewer

Geocaching.com Volunteer

 

And here is my responce:

 

Reviewer,

 

Thank you for your patience as well. I do understand the tough job you have (as can be seen in the forums). I appreciate your understanding on the issue. I would be more than willing to compromise. How does this sound to you:

 

We publish the cache as is. In the meantime, I officially contact the road department to see if they have any problems with the placement - if they do, I will work directly with them to develop a solution - either traditional micro, a magnet, or a complete overhaul of the stage.

 

Additionally, I would be curious as to what Groundspeak's official position becomes on this matter. Hopefully the confusion here can clarify things in the future.

 

Finally, concerning the forums, I have told them I would keep them posted. I would like to seek your advice as to how I relay our coversation and eventually our final decision.

 

Thanks again for your service to the community.

[+SG-MIN]

whoops... I told my wife I was heading to bed.

 

I am off for real this time. I will catch up on the controversy tommorow morning. Keep it sane fellas

[+Torry]

You, I and Jeremy Irish may agree that a magnetic Hide-A-Key on a guardrail is harmless. The highway department might agree with us. They'll still throw it away if they find it but they won't call the cops. Putting a sticker on a sign is an act of vandalism whether it's to provide coordinates to a cache or plug a new bar band. If you're caught putting it on there you could be cited and fined.

 

Torry,

 

We get back to my original question (and then I promised my wife I was heading to bed). What makes the sticker vandalism? That is a serious question!

Let consider a few variables: It is possible to have permission; it is removable, it is not seen in 99.99% or circumstances.

 

I am asking this question to you with no sarcasm or spite. I want to know what makes it an automatic act of vandalism in your book when the reviewer who recommend I do it did not see it that way.

 

How would it not be? If it's a matter of degree then the response would be, "How big does a sticker have to be to be considered an act of vandalism? 3"x3"? 1"x1"? 7"x2.5"? Where would you then draw the line? Would it be an act of vandalism only if the total area of the sticker were greater than 4 square inches? Or perhaps if the sticker were any color other than black and white?

 

The sign belongs to the public at large, not to you, me or the fella with the black Sharpie writing his gang "tag name" on it. None of us have the right to deface for any reason or for any purpose. Period. The fact that the sticker is small and can be easily peeled off is completely immaterial to the legality of the act of placing the sticker in the first place.