Cache On Jeep

[+ibycus]

So I've run this idea by the local reviewer, and he brought it up in the reviewer forum, and then sent me to the contact@ address to see what they make of it, and now they've sent me to the forums to see what folks here think about it (so far no one has said no, I think they just don't quite know what to make of it).

 

So I'll boil it down to barest essentials...

 

I was thinking about hiding a cache on my Jeep.

I always park in (exactly) the same spot every day.

I'm always parked there for a predictable time interval. (while I'm in class)

My vehicle is well marked as a caching car (specifically I have a Calgary Cachers bumper sticker, a signal antenna ball, and a GPS mount on the windshield)

 

So in that sense the cache is no different from any number of caches that are only available for a restricted time each day.

 

The kicker is of course I'm not always parked there, but the cache remains attached to my Jeep where ever I go. Someone could also log the cache if they found it while I was parked in a random parking lot somewhere (say while I was out looking for a cache somewhere), so in some sense it is a traveling cache, which of course are verboten. Given though that the cache is attached to my Jeep, and my Jeep can't go anywhere that caches aren't allowed to be placed, that aspect shouldn't be an issue.

 

Other issues which were brought up in the reviewer forum:

 

Back when we did have traveling caches we vetoed this version unless there were a way to track the location of the vehicle online so it was possible to see where it was at any given time.

 

Don't know if these typically included a given place/time when the cache would always be available or not, but given that the cache will always be available for a predictable time periods on given days. I can certainly see why these might be vetoed otherwise, as they don't really involve a GPS to find the cache.

 

Asking people to fiddle around with a Jeep in a (presumably) college carpark? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

 

Actually I park on a residential street a couple of blocks from the university, outside a friend's house. I would of course run it by him as well before actually placing the cache. (presumably its the college car park issue that is the problem, not the 'fiddling' with my Jeep.

 

Or, the description spells out exactly where it is, so it becomes a deadly-dull exercise".

 

Two things to say about that…

 

1. Yeah it might be dull for some, but so are micros in trees, and we don’t ban them (for good reason).

 

2. The cache will only be available at that location for a restricted period of time. During peak caching hours, the cache won’t be there. So part of the fun becomes ‘catching’ me somewhere, or turning it around figuring out a way to get to the cache during the hours that I’m going to be in a known location.

 

So what do you think? What issues can you see with a cache like this?

[+BlueDeuce]

Accessing a car on a public or private street?

 

No.

[+IV_Warrior]

I agree with BlueDeuce, I just don't think it's a good idea. Even if your friend is in the know, that doesn't mean the neighbors would be. One of them could easily call the police. Or just an officer on a random patrol would know the deal, and wouldn't likely believe the person he thought was "fiddling" with the vehicle. Especially if he can't contact you to verify.

 

Not to mention, it becomes too much like a pocket cache when you pull in to a caching event or run into a group at a cache site.....

[+geognerd]

Accessing a car on a public or private street?

 

No.

I agree. I'm not a fan of your cache idea. Sorry. The availability isn't concrete like the hours for a park or a library. Suppose you are ill and your Jeep will not be at its "usual" location. Will you actually go online and disable the cache for that time period?

 

As for snooping around a person's car on the street, even with their permission, such activity won't look right to non-cachers in the area. One way you could get around this would be to make your car a stage in a multi or part of a puzzle. Maybe put the coords for the next stage in one of your windows, or have a puzzle based on your license plate or something on the vehicle. But even with that solution a cacher might look like they were fixing to steal something from the car.

 

But I still don't think your cache idea is practical.

[+cache_test_dummies]

Aren't you worried that somebody might sign the container instead of the log?

 

Here's an alternative plan which might be easier to get approved:

 

Make it a multi. Leave the keys hidden outside the Jeep, and put the coordinates for the final in the glove compartment. As an option, people could drive your Jeep to the cache, and then return it when they were done.

 

Bonus points are awarded to cachers who top off the gas tank for you.

 

[+ScoutingWV]

Why would you want someone messing around your Jeep just to log a cache?

 

Just for the novelty of being able to say you have a cache in your vehicle?

[Keystone]

I'm moving this thread to the Geocaching Topics forum, where appeals of cache listing decisions typically take place. The Geocaching.com forum is for website feature requests, bugs, etc.

[+Kealia]

I'm all for new ideas, but I'd vote no as well.

 

I don't want to guess if you're home sick, on vacation, etc. when I go looking for a cache. There's always a chance of a cache being missing when you go after it, but usually (not always) you get treated to a nice spot anyway. In this case, I'm treated to a street....

 

Same concerns as others for tampering with a car, too.

 

Sorry, can't support the idea.

[+ibycus]

I'm moving this thread to the Geocaching Topics forum, where appeals of cache listing decisions typically take place. The Geocaching.com forum is for website feature requests, bugs, etc.

 

Might be a better place. I was just posting where I was told to though.

[+BlueDeuce]

A yellow jeep would pass the test.

 

 

/Humor

[+Miragee]

There is a cache here, that shall remain nameless, which is similar to what you propose.

 

I'm not sure how it got past the reviewer, but it is still active and was most recently logged last month.

 

Oh . . . it was listed as a Puzzle Cache.

 

There is another one in a nearby region . . . but that one may have been approved before Moving caches were disallowed . . .

[+ibycus]

I agree with BlueDeuce, I just don't think it's a good idea. Even if your friend is in the know, that doesn't mean the neighbors would be. One of them could easily call the police. Or just an officer on a random patrol would know the deal, and wouldn't likely believe the person he thought was "fiddling" with the vehicle. Especially if he can't contact you to verify.

 

What about if it were a regular sized cache? Like an ammo can bolted on to the bumper. When I first thought about it, I'd thought a little micro attached to a pretty obvious location on the Jeep (was thinking the spare tire mount, but hadn't tried actually attaching it). But you're right, it probably should contain a proper stash note, and obviously be associated with the vehicle... Not just something the person being questioned by the police happend to bring with them.

 

Not to mention, it becomes too much like a pocket cache when you pull in to a caching event or run into a group at a cache site.....

 

Half the fun for me is going to be seeing the people that visited the cache while I wasn't looking, or finding people at the cache site. Kind of spoils the whole fun of the cache if you do something like that (if I wanted to do something like that, I'd just make a travel bug).

[+ibycus]

Accessing a car on a public or private street?

 

No.

I agree. I'm not a fan of your cache idea. Sorry. The availability isn't concrete like the hours for a park or a library. Suppose you are ill and your Jeep will not be at its "usual" location. Will you actually go online and disable the cache for that time period?

 

Well thats part of cache maintenance isn't it? Of course the unforseen could happen, but at least you aren't going to spend a long time searching for it. (hmmm, no Red Jeep here... Guess the cache isn't here either...)

 

As for snooping around a person's car on the street, even with their permission, such activity won't look right to non-cachers in the area. One way you could get around this would be to make your car a stage in a multi or part of a puzzle. Maybe put the coords for the next stage in one of your windows, or have a puzzle based on your license plate or something on the vehicle. But even with that solution a cacher might look like they were fixing to steal something from the car.

 

What would you say to an ammo can bolted to the bumper? While I suppose it *might* attract the attention of some non-cachers, it would make it pretty easy to explain oneself to a non-cacher (specifically the cops come looking, you can immediately show them the cache, and contents, including a stash note. might be a good way to educate the locals about caching).

[+ibycus]

There is a cache here, that shall remain nameless, which is similar to what you propose.

 

I'm not sure how it got past the reviewer, but it is still active and was most recently logged last month.

 

Oh . . . it was listed as a Puzzle Cache.

 

There is another one in a nearby region . . . but that one may have been approved before Moving caches were disallowed . . .

 

Would be pretty easy to get this one by a reviewer. Just have a cache page like:

 

This cache is only available between these times, hunt outside those times at your own risk

don't mention anything about where the cache is located, or how its hidden or what not on the initial cache page.

 

Then later add more information to the cache listing. If the reviewer comes and questions you, tell them that you wanted it to be a surprise for the searcher, but later decided that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, and ammended the cache listing.

[+BlueDeuce]

Forget the timing and place issues

 

Cars do not fall under the same category as a park.

 

A cop finds someone in your car and you can’t be contacted, they go to jail.

 

edit: and don't anybody tell me that going for a cache after park hours will get you arrested so it's the cachers decision.

 

Cops do not keep a listing of a car's open hours. get it?

Edited May 26, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+IV_Warrior]

 

Would be pretty easy to get this one by a reviewer. Just have a cache page like:

 

This cache is only available between these times, hunt outside those times at your own risk

don't mention anything about where the cache is located, or how its hidden or what not on the initial cache page.

 

Then later add more information to the cache listing. If the reviewer comes and questions you, tell them that you wanted it to be a surprise for the searcher, but later decided that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, and ammended the cache listing.

 

The reviewers generally don't take kindly to wholesale changes to cache pages after they've been published. Especially when it's obvious that the changes were because the cache wouldn't be listed if all the info was there at the time of submission.

[+ibycus]

Why would you want someone messing around your Jeep just to log a cache?

 

Just for the novelty of being able to say you have a cache in your vehicle?

 

Well it wouldn't be in my vehicle... But actually I thought of the idea a while back after 'finding' a cache (that had yet to be placed) in a friend's car. For a joke I signed the log book (hey does that make be FTF?). Thought it would be kind of fun to have a real cache attached to a vehicle.

 

I was then reminded of it not too long ago when I got back to my car after taking the dog for a walk and a cacher had left a note on my windshield. I'd walked almost right by them and never saw them. Made me wonder how many 'close encounters' I've had, and not known about them.

[+ibycus]

Forget the timing and place issues

 

Cars do not fall under the same category as a park.

 

A cop finds someone in your car and you can’t be contacted, they go to jail.

 

edit: and don't anybody tell me that going for a cache after park hours will get you arrested so it's the cachers decision.

 

Cops do not keep a listing of a car's open hours. get it?

 

Cache IN car. No bad. Don't want cache IN car. Cache ON car. On outside of car.

[+ibycus]

 

Would be pretty easy to get this one by a reviewer. Just have a cache page like:

 

This cache is only available between these times, hunt outside those times at your own risk

don't mention anything about where the cache is located, or how its hidden or what not on the initial cache page.

 

Then later add more information to the cache listing. If the reviewer comes and questions you, tell them that you wanted it to be a surprise for the searcher, but later decided that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, and ammended the cache listing.

 

The reviewers generally don't take kindly to wholesale changes to cache pages after they've been published. Especially when it's obvious that the changes were because the cache wouldn't be listed if all the info was there at the time of submission.

 

Actually come to think of it, I don't think there is anything in the guidelines (at least that I can think of) that preclude a cache being hidden on a working vehicle. Without the 'you can log it if you find it elsewhere' requirement, it fits neatly in to the cache only available at specific times category.

[+ibycus]

Aren't you worried that somebody might sign the container instead of the log?

 

No, no one around here does anything like that... Although the cache would still have a container anyways... Not likely that many people would find it on a cache raid anyways.

 

Here's an alternative plan which might be easier to get approved:

 

Make it a multi. Leave the keys hidden outside the Jeep, and put the coordinates for the final in the glove compartment. As an option, people could drive your Jeep to the cache, and then return it when they were done.

 

Bonus points are awarded to cachers who top off the gas tank for you.

 

 

[+BlueDeuce]

1.2.3

Edited May 26, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+BlueDeuce]

Forget the timing and place issues

 

Cars do not fall under the same category as a park.

 

A cop finds someone in your car and you can’t be contacted, they go to jail.

 

edit: and don't anybody tell me that going for a cache after park hours will get you arrested so it's the cachers decision.

 

Cops do not keep a listing of a car's open hours. get it?

 

Cache IN car. No bad. Don't want cache IN car. Cache ON car. On outside of car.

 

you know what? forget it.

 

Knock yourself out.

[+ibycus]

Forget the timing and place issues

 

Cars do not fall under the same category as a park.

 

A cop finds someone in your car and you can’t be contacted, they go to jail.

 

edit: and don't anybody tell me that going for a cache after park hours will get you arrested so it's the cachers decision.

 

Cops do not keep a listing of a car's open hours. get it?

 

Cache IN car. No bad. Don't want cache IN car. Cache ON car. On outside of car.

 

you know what? forget it.

 

Knock yourself out.

 

No really I do want to know what you have to say.

 

I hadn't thought of a few of the points brought up here (like the whole how its going to look to some of the neighbours, or passing law enforcement). If you'd prefer to talk via e-mail or PM or whatever, I'm more than happy to.

[+RichardMoore]

What happens if the cacher doesn't read the cache page?

If it's a "limited time" area such as a library, the cacher sees a closed building.

If your Jeep isn't there, how long will the cacher look for a cache that isn't there?

[+ibycus]

What happens if the cacher doesn't read the cache page?

If it's a "limited time" area such as a library, the cacher sees a closed building.

If your Jeep isn't there, how long will the cacher look for a cache that isn't there?

 

Of course thats an issue with just about any cache, but there are a few things that might be done to mitigate that event. First off, the cache type would have to be (?). Anyone who goes for a (?) cache without reading the cache page is just asking for trouble. Next, the cache could be called something like "Red Jeep Cache", giving the most possible information in the cache title. Also, one could bias the coordinates slightly towards the end of the Jeep that point out in to the street, to direct cachers away from potential hiding spots on surrounding property (although if you're looking for a (?) cache apparently on private property without reading the cache page first... well lets just say I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for you when you get had up for trespassing).

[+ibycus]

Cache IN car. No bad. Don't want cache IN car. Cache ON car. On outside of car.

 

Just re-read that... and it might sound a bit well... snotty. I really didn't mean it like that.

[+cache_test_dummies]

So in that sense the cache is no different from any number of caches that are only available for a restricted time each day.

The real problem is that despite your portrayal of the cache as a regular cache that is sometimes moving, what you are really proposing is a moving cache that is sometimes stationary.

 

And since moving caches aren't allowed, I just don't see this one happening.

[+Clan Delaney]

I actually like the idea, but much as my boss likes to say, "I can think of a million reasons why we shouldn't do this. I applaud you on your creativity though.

 

You have to admit, it is a bit of an end run around the "no moving caches" thing. As far as the image presented by a cacher poking around a parked vehicle: sure, not the best situation, but just to play devil's advovate, how many times a day are cachers poking around other objects that would seem suspicious to onlookers (cough lampposts cough)?

[+Kit Fox]

It has already been done before. Cache Machine was approved back in November of 2003.

[+ibycus]

So in that sense the cache is no different from any number of caches that are only available for a restricted time each day.

The real problem is that despite your portrayal of the cache as a regular cache that is sometimes moving, what you are really proposing is a moving cache that is sometimes stationary.

 

And since moving caches aren't allowed, I just don't see this one happening.

 

As I understand it there were a few issues why moving caches were discontinued from the site.

 

For starters each time the cache moved, a reviewer should be reviewing the new location (kinda short circuits that whole process). Given though that the Jeep *can't* be anywhere that you aren't allowed to be, that is somewhat of a non issue (unless you break in to my garage at night to log the cache, in which case well, if you can get away with it without me finding out, by all means )

 

Next there was the issue of one person mis-entering the coordinates and the cache getting 'lost'. There were some other issues too, but I can't seem to recall them at the moment. None of the 'traveling cache' issues though seem to apply to this scenario.

 

No argument though the cache would more often not be at the posted coordinates than actually at them. (as I wrote in my initial post, thats part of the fun).

 

If I were to remove the 'you can log it wherever you find it' aspect then can you see anything that violates existing guidelines? It wouldn't be an overly interesting cache without that aspect to it mind you, so I probably wouldn't do it, but I for one don't. Now with specifically the 'you can log it where you find it' aspect, why *shouldn't* this be allowed?

 

(I'll give you one reason off the bat, is that it doesn't involve a GPS as a crucial part of the hunt)

[+jasond]

I like the idea, but my opinion doesn't matter.

 

What about putting a TB instead of a real cache on a conspicuous spot on the vehicle? Would that be a plausible compromise?

[+Pablo Mac]

I have my own White Jeep Travel Bug.

 

[+kentuckygirls]

No way!

[+geognerd]

What would you say to an ammo can bolted to the bumper?

Makes me glad I'm not a cache reviewer. I might give your idea a chance, maybe a one month trial period. If the local cachers logged complaints, I would ask you to archive it or use my suggestion of listing coordinates on the car for a final ammo can stage. If you go with your idea of fastening the ammo can to the Jeep, and it gets approved, make sure the container is clearly marked as a geocache. So if a muggle sees someone opening the can on the back of the Jeep and they take the time to walk over and check it out, they might feel reassured by one of those Official Geocache stickers. But if they're quick to phone the police, the geocacher will have some explaining to do.

 

How about swag? I just thought of this. The more delicate stuff might not survive jostling from the bumps in the road. A very minor concern, but one to be aware of.

[+cache_test_dummies]

As I understand it there were a few issues why moving caches were discontinued from the site.

Unless you are arguing for a change to the guidelines, it doesn't really matter why moving caches are no longer allowed - forbidden is forbidden. But I'll carry along with the train of thought for the sake of the discussion.

 

For starters each time the cache moved, a reviewer should be reviewing the new location (kinda short circuits that whole process). Given though that the Jeep *can't* be anywhere that you aren't allowed to be, that is somewhat of a non issue (unless you break in to my garage at night to log the cache, in which case well, if you can get away with it without me finding out, by all means )

The issue isn't about where geocachers are allowed to go, it's about where the geocaches are allowed to go. What if you parked your Jeep in a National Park? Or under a railroad bridge?

 

If I were to remove the 'you can log it wherever you find it' aspect then can you see anything that violates existing guidelines?

No. Cache permanence maybe. And as I'm sure you understand, remove the traveling aspect and what you've got is a no different than what you'd have if you hid a cache in a bush next to the spot where you normally park your Jeep. If the bush isn't a good spot for a cache, why would a box on your bumper next to the bush be a good spot for a cache?

 

Now with specifically the 'you can log it where you find it' aspect, why *shouldn't* this be allowed?

Because that makes it a traveling cache.

 

edit: qualified my "No" answer.

Edited May 27, 2006 by cache_test_dummies

[+Team JSAM]

I can just see the cops now, getting called for large amounts of people looking through one guys jeep, this is one cache that I would not hunt, however it is a unique idea.

[+ibycus]

As I understand it there were a few issues why moving caches were discontinued from the site.

Unless you are arguing for a change to the guidelines, it doesn't really matter why moving caches are no longer allowed - forbidden is forbidden. But I'll carry along with the train of thought for the sake of the discussion.

 

Well they are just guidelines aren't they? If the reasons for having the guideline don't apply, then the guideline can be waived.

 

The specific guideline in question is:

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be listed. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there.

 

It says "most likely will not be listed" not "will not be listed". So actually they aren't forbidden based on the guidelines... The cache will be in a known location for an extended period of time (just also goes to an unknown location for other extended periods of time).

[+Harry Dolphin]

Assuming that you have an assigned parking spot "GCABCD", and almost always park there on weekdays during working hours... When you're out sick on Tuesday, and Harry Dolphin drives his brand new Red Jeep, and espies the vacant parking spot, and parks there. Okay, he's bad for parking in an assigned spot. But when he comes back out, and finds three people inside his Jeep, he's calling the cops! Harry gets a $125 parking ticket. The three cachers get arrested.

Nope. This one aint going to fly. It's a moving cache. Can't get around that. They are no longer approved.

[+Groovy Cachin' Dude!]

Well, I've found both a traditional moving cache, as well as Pablo Mac's White Jeep TB and I have to admit that I really enjoyed grabbing the White Jeep. It's fun to see it driving around, and it's easy to log.

 

What is even better is that by creating a TB, you can actually keep track of mileage. As for a cache on your Jeep, I wouldn't know where to sign the log.

[+ibycus]

Assuming that you have an assigned parking spot "GCABCD", and almost always park there on weekdays during working hours... When you're out sick on Tuesday, and Harry Dolphin drives his brand new Red Jeep, and espies the vacant parking spot, and parks there. Okay, he's bad for parking in an assigned spot. But when he comes back out, and finds three people inside his Jeep, he's calling the cops! Harry gets a $125 parking ticket. The three cachers get arrested.

Nope. This one aint going to fly. It's a moving cache. Can't get around that. They are no longer approved.

 

Don't know why people keep bringing up the 'iniside the Jeep' thing. The cache would be hidden on the outside of the vehicle, not the inside. If you go entering someone's vehicle looking for a cache, (or do anything illegal for that matter), you know what you deserve to be arrested. (oh and the parking ticket is $40, got one a couple of months ago when I forgot to put my permit up). There aren't two sets of rules, one for cachers, one for everyone else. If you're doing something which under 'normal' circumstances might be considered illegal while caching, you'd better be darned sure that its not before doing it. That goes for *any* cache.

[+ibycus]

What is even better is that by creating a TB, you can actually keep track of mileage. As for a cache on your Jeep, I wouldn't know where to sign the log.

 

There's this fancy thing called an odometer....

 

And well you'd sign the first blank page in the log book of course. (this would be an actual physical cache, somehow attached to the Jeep.)

[+sillygirl & jrr]

We think it's a cool idea. We confess that at our recent CITO event, we placed a temporary cache on our RAV4. It was visible, but only from certain angles; as the parking lot was pretty crowded we did have a few folks ask us what kind of car we drove. We thought for a while about how a way to make it a permanent cache, but couldn't come up with a viable one. Anyhow we hope it gets published as a limited hours cache.

 

We had plenty of fun reading the log of the temporary cache, you'd get to have that enjoyment every day!

[+Renegade Knight]

Fun cache? Maybe not for some but fun isn't on the list of guidlines as a must have for cache approval. Good thing I enjoy some that others hate and vice versa.

 

What remains is a moving cache.

 

The cache is located in a spot during a set time. It's always in that area. You don't even have to list that it's somewhere else. That can be a literal dose of serendipity.

 

The trick to a moving cache is that the normal ones are never in the same spot except through sheer chance. If you attach a cache to the coo-coo of a coo coo clock and it's only available at the O'Clocks for 2 min... It's a viable cache.

 

Ditto on this cache. It's not that it moves, it's that it has set hours in a specific spot. Moving is incidental. I don't see that any of the reasons that moving caches were banned are actually present in this cache.

[+Renegade Knight]

....The issue isn't about where geocachers are allowed to go, it's about where the geocaches are allowed to go. What if you parked your Jeep in a National Park? Or under a railroad bridge?...

 

That's a non issue. The NPS isn't going to impound your car because a cache listed in TimBuckTwo happens to be in town for a day. The NPS can't claim it's abandoned property and haul your car off because they can see a cache in the back seat. Lastly, the owner can disable it during the vaction.

 

Changing tack.

 

Caches in on and around vehciles are ok.

Caches with hours of operations are ok (most parks close at dusk).

 

If every morning he took the cache out to his jeep from his desk and every evening put the cache away this cache would be approvable.

 

Operationally this cache works just like an approvable cache but for one thing. You can get lucky and find the cache outside it's normal hours of operation.

 

If this cache was just "catch me if you can" and didn't have hours, then it's not approvable.

[+JeeperMTJ]

On first impression it sounds like a good idea, especially the jeep part

 

... but:

I would vote "no" as well:

 

... because:

- it´s not sure that a geocacher can find the cache at any given time

- people might get suspicious if somebody is messing with your car and call the police

- you don´t wan´t people taken your Jeep apart (I know what I am talking about since I have a TB attached to my jeep).

- others might copy the idea and get it approved because of your cache (but don´t park it in the same spot all day)

 

cheers!