Finding The Final Stage

[+hikemeister]

Last weekend, while doing a difficult multi-stage cache in a natural area, my son and I literally stumbled across the final stage of another cache. It was a large 5 gallon paint container loaded with great trade items. We signed the log and posted a find, indicating what had occurred. The cache owner deleted our log, saying we did not qualify because the earlier stages were not actually found.

 

What do you think -- should a log stand if a name is placed in the book?

 

I realize it is up to the cache owner to decide -- I just wondered what folks thought about this issue.

[+Doggiewoggie]

Hmmm... that's what you get for being honest, huh Well, IMHO, I think your find is valid. You signed the log, didn't you? I mean, when muggles find caches by mistake and then get turned on to geocaching--those first smiley faces are valid, right? But, sad to say, it's the owner who gets the last word on it.

[+Harrald]

Personally, I would have let the find stand. There have been a multi or 2 that I have been able to figure out the final spot without hunting for each stage.

[+Kealia]

I'd let it stand.

 

I own a 5-stage multi where the FTF actually went to the last stage without doing any of the previous. While in my eyes, this was "cheating" I did let it stand. The difference is that he purposely circumvented the early stages - you came across yours by accident.

 

The killer of the whole thing is that he cheated himself out of a great experience by missing the first legs....

[+The Leprechauns]

If you had just said "neat cache with lots of goodies, traded X for Y, thanks for the cache" there would not have been an issue. And people wonder why a lot of geocachers don't write detailed logs, or criticize anything about the cache...

 

That being said, it's the owner's cache, and his rules.

 

I own a number of multicaches, all but one of them is very challenging. The one is possible to solve because finders' logs mention that it's very close to the ABC cache, and they like it that the endpoint is just above a pretty waterfall. If you do the ABC cache you can then find the end of my multi by brute force. If anyone ever did this, or found one of my others completely by luck or good reasoning, I would congratulate them for beating the hider at his own game. It also makes for a great story in the history of the cache.

[+The Cheeseheads]

There was a two-stage multi that I did where I couldn't find the first stage for anything. I turned on The Force™ and was able to find the final. I didn't feel wrong logging that as a find at all.

 

There's no way you can "un-find" the one you stumbled across, so you might as well log it. If it really nags on your conscience, go back and find the rest, but I don't think you should have to.

[+hikemeister]

Interesting idea, but we do not have the option to take it as a find -- the owner deleted our find log and would do the same again. That's OK, our names are in the log book and I don't really keep track of how many caches I have found (over 350, but don't know the exact number off the top of my head). This would drive someone nuts who really prizes the numbers!

[+Sagefox]

...the owner deleted our find log and would do the same again.

Maybe its been said but you can go back and find all the other stages and claim the find again. I'd leave a very small item of proof at all the other stages though.

 

---

 

I disagree with the owner deleting this cacher's find.

 

My position (for my caches and those I find) is that I don't care if people lie, cheat or steal to get to my caches. If they physically get to the logbook and sign it they qualify for a find. If the logbook is laying on the ground with no container in sight, its a find. If the logbook is missing and they find the container, its a find. If they find pieces of the cache scattered around but no logbook or container they can claim a find if they add a container of somesort. One guy simply used a ziplock with a few pages of paper when one of ours was muggled and I happily allowed his find. His action was "in the spirit of geocaching" and it kept the cache alive until something more substantial could be put in place.

 

This game is meant to be fun and I lean toward a fun interpretation of marginal issues rather than take a rigid position.

[+briansnat]

You found it. Its a find. The cache owner is a...I'd better stop.

[+southdeltan]

I'd post the log again. See who gets tired first.

 

sd

[+evergreenhiker!]

Personally, I would have let the find stand. There have been a multi or 2 that I have been able to figure out the final spot without hunting for each stage.

Same here...I've been known to find a final without the aide of prior waypoints. I just logged it as a find and left it be.

[+Sagefox]

... If anyone ever did this, or found one of my others completely by luck or good reasoning, I would congratulate them for beating the hider at his own game. It also makes for a great story in the history of the cache.

Exactly! And a good story livens up my day.

[WH]

We have a local cacher who calls people she knows and get them to tell her where the final actually is .

[+Renegade Knight]

I found the second to last stage of an 8 part multi much like you did. I emailed the owner and asked. They said I needed to do stage 4 to claim the find. We later stumbled onto another stage of this same multi but I don't know if it's ahead of stage 4 or after, so all things considered we will do the entire thing when we get to it.

 

Another one we found the last stage while looking for the first. The owner had no problem with that fine.

 

As for my one multi stage cache, more power to you if you stumble on it.

[+Riddlers]

I'd just go back and find the other parts and then log it. Who knows, the cache owner may have thought you gave it away to the final location and his feelings got hurt and if you find all the parts, and don't give away that the end is near the X cache then he should let your log stand next time.

[CoyoteRed]

You signed the logbook, it's a find. Doesn't matter what the owner thinks.

 

Oh, furthermore, the owner only gets to make the rules for logging online, not actually being able to claim the find. Even then just because you can delete a log doesn't make it right.

[CoyoteRed]

In your next log post the URL for this thread.

 

Like already has been mentioned, it doesn't matter one whit how you find the final--even if you cheated and had a previous finder point right to it--you signed the logbook and that's a find.

[+Criminal]

Put it this way, if the cache page said you needed a boat to get to the island the cache was on and you came in by parachute, is that wrong? It shouldn’t matter how you ended up at the final, you found it. Sounds like the owner has some serious control issues, just be glad you’re not married to him/her.

[+bigeddy]

What do you think -- should a log stand if a name is placed in the book?

Absolutely, assuming the log book was signed by the cacher in question. No different from finding a traditional cache by accident or guile. Of course, when people work in teams but sign individually, or when one person signs for everybody, the ethics get a little complicated but the principle is the same--you sign it, you get credit.

[+Jamie Z]

If I were the owner of this cache, I'd never delete your log, as you've clearly found the cache, but I would send you a note encouraging you to look for the other legs.

 

Hey, where were all the "Log it as a find" opinions when I found all the stages of a multi by using coordinates provided by an approver? Geesh, you folks are a tough crowd.

 

Jamie

[CoyoteRed]

Hey, where were all the "Log it as a find" opinions...

You had my vote.

[+southdeltan]

I'd post the log again. See who gets tired first.

 

sd

On second thought - I might just post and ask them if they're going to go tear the page out of the physical logbook too?

 

Of course, that wouldn't change the fact that you did, in fact, find the cache.

 

sd

[WH]

I don't care for the practice, but I have to agree. The only real requirement is a signature in the logbook.

[+cachew nut]

I would try to get the cache archived for violating the .1 mile rule, just out of spite

 

It's not exactly the same scenario, but there is a level 5 cache here called Row your Boat. It's a level 5 because it's on an island. In the winter though, people just walk across the frozen ice. The cache owner does not delete the logs because a boat wasn't used. Rather the finders are rewarded by being able to ice skate to the cache.

[+RJFerret]

If the cache page SAID the owner would delete logs of those who skipped steps, OK, but yeesh.

 

I let logs stand on a cache you had to climb a tree for when I changed it to a larger container and it fell out! Those quick enough to log it before I returned "won".

 

You can't cheat when there are no rules after all.

 

OTOH, I've found final stages by following tracks in the snow, recently others followed disturbed leaves. I once FTF based upon distance from the trail when there was only one trail in that region. I know an instance (wasn't the final stage but a hard stage) a cacher used binoculars to watch other cachers find it! Some were critical but I applaud his "resourcefullness", creativity and diligence. After all, it took him much longer to find it that way than others.

 

Fortunately, all the preposterous log deletions in the world can't undue your achievement.

 

If the owner believes the other stages are worth that much, he should grand an additional find log for each stage--or have made them separate cache listings!

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

[+Will+Bill]

This has happened to us before, a few times. Once the cache was in a park, stumbled across the last stage, and logged it as a find. However, at a Cache event, there was a group of cacheres at an event who were signing the log for the last stage of a multi. We did not sight the log or count this as a find, because we didn't even look for it, and hadn't done the other stages.

[CoyoteRed]

Here's another:

 

If the guy really wanted you to find the other stages, he should have locked the cache and left parts of the combination at the other stages.

[+horsegeeks]

IF YOU FOUND THIS CONTAINER BY ACCIDENT:

 

Great! You can join in with us! We only ask:

 

• Please don't move or vandalize the container. The real fun is just finding it and recording a visit.

 

• Go ahead and take something if you like. But also leave something too.

 

And let us know you found this by visiting the website below. The GPS Stash Hunt is for everyone with a sense of adventure. There are several thousands of them around the world. Visit our website if you want to learn more, or have any comments:

 

www.geocaching.com

 

I know this is a silly analogy to the subject of the thread but I thought I would toss it in. If it is good for the non-players........... The find should stand IMHO

[+fly46]

Heck, if you found my cache without other stages, whatever.

You sign the log, you sign the log. It's that simple.

[+sbukosky]

A find is a find whether by sweating it out or by happenstance. You deserve to log it as much as anyone.

[+Runfrog]

Perhaps he should have hidden the Cache better.

[+hikemeister]

I just logged a find again and posted this note. Most likely it will be deleted. Then I will post again and again, and see what happens.

 

Cache log:

 

After discussing this subject with about 20 other geocachers, I decided that the fair thing to do is log this as a find. Not a single person suggested I do otherwise, and in fact, they all were amazed that my log had been deleted. The fact is that I literally stumbled across your 5 gallon paint can (the final stage) while checking on our nearby cache called Natural Way 3.

 

My name now is in your log book and I retrieved a travel bug. Hence I found your cache. Remember, one of the main things we do as geocachers is put 'accidental finder's' sheets in with our logs (well I do anyway). They say that if you found by accident, welcome to geocaching -- please sign the log and register on the site to claim the find.

 

I think you need to recognize that geocachers use many methods to find caches -- some of us look carefully for shortcuts, for example, to avoid long walks, despite what the owner may have intended in the hunting experience. This is a similar situation.

[+Jamie Z]

If the log gets deleted again, I'd post the URL to this thread in your next find-it log. I might do that now anyway. Perhaps if the owner explained his position, we might all understand a little better why the log was deleted.

 

Jamie

[+cachew nut]

I looked at the cache page and it appears this was a multi where the steps before the final were destroyed in a storm and probably left the final uncovered. I think the owner's concern is that it was originally hidden well, but now awarding a find log would cheapen the previous finders logs. Apparently the cache has been disabled too.

[CoyoteRed]

I think the owner's concern is that it was originally hidden well, but now awarding a find log would cheapen the previous finders logs.

This may well be so, but it's not the fault of the finder the cache was made easier than the owner intended through no fault of the finder.

 

Besides, you aren't "awarded" a find log, you earn it by signing the logbook.