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Jeremy

Cache Attributes

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4. Smaller icons? We could shrink the icons down a bit.

Smaller icons displayed directly below the D/T stars wouldn't be intrusive as long as you display only icons and leave the text in the bubble.

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I think it should be both user and owner driven, as regards the presentation of info.

Of course! That's usually the case. I'd like all of the above. But if you only had one choice, what would it be?

in that case, user-controlled

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I think it should be both user and owner driven, as regards the presentation of info.

Of course! That's usually the case. I'd like all of the above. But if you only had one choice, what would it be?

it depends which ones are important to ME at the time, duh!

 

seriously, though. as long as there's an indication for no attributes provided or to leave them out, i'll be happy.

 

sometimes i want to provide this information, and sometimes i don't.

 

sometimes i want to know this about a cache, and sometimes i don't. no information provided lets me know that i'm on my own and i should come prepared.

 

any chance there might be a popup window to provide more detailed attribute information? no, probably not and i can think of a dozen reasons (all right, two) why it would be a bad idea. i thought i'd say it anyway in case some part of the concept leads to a good idea...

 

...so f'rinstnce, you could click through to a thing that would give you the full list of attributes for a cache, kind of like making the page printer-friendly, and if there are a lot of attributes the page wouldn't get cluttered.

maybe a button that says "show me cache attributes".

 

not practical, but maybe it will give you smart guys a useful thought.

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How about this: add a checkbox column to the right of the existing radiobuttons, for Display On Cache Page. At the top of the column is a master checkbox. Checking it or unchecking it correspondingly changes all the active selections. Any additional attribute selections will use the current value of the master checkbox as the initial Display On Cache Page checkbox value.

 

It's simple, intutive, and gives the user full control over what gets displayed.

Edited by Prime Suspect

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It's simple, intutive, and gives the user full control over what gets displayed.

It's an interesting idea, but it mucks up how I have the application implemented at the moment. It still doesn't help the folks who don't want to see them at all (or for folks who want to list them all, for that matter).

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3. Programically list - If there are too many icons, the site either a ) only lists the categories with a hover bubble showing all the attributes or b ) most important attributes shown with a (...) shown to bring a popup to show all the attributes.

I like the idea of of just listing the categories with a hover bubble showing all the attributes, in all cases (i.e. regardless of whether there are "too many")!

 

This would allow those who want to see the details to hover, and those who want to be surprised to not hover.

 

I'd also revise my earlier suggestion about "dangerous area" based on CR's point that:

You can't possibly list all dangers so I see this one as a catch-all. This can be included to alert the finder to read the cache page closely or be especially vigilant.

 

Instead, I'd suggest using only "Dangerous Area" with hover text would say, "read the cache description". This allows you to eliminate all the individual danger icons (Cliff/falling rocks, Hunting, Poison plants, Cactus, Snakes, Ticks and Abandoned mines) - as CR said, you can't have an icon for every possible danger.

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It's simple, intutive, and gives the user full control over what gets displayed.

It's an interesting idea, but it mucks up how I have the application implemented at the moment. It still doesn't help the folks who don't want to see them at all (or for folks who want to list them all, for that matter).

This was pretty much what I was suggesting. I'm not sure what it messes up - but this was what I originally wanted.

 

However, after reading your suggestion of allowing the user (the cache seeker) decide what he/she sees - I think I like that idea as well.

 

sd

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It still doesn't help the folks who don't want to see them at all (or for folks who want to list them all, for that matter).

I would think the cache owner should be the one to decide if they're going to be displayed on the page. I can see having an option in everyone's profile to determine whether or not attributes are displayed on cache pages they view. If they choose not to view them, it could have a "Show Attributes" link, which would redisplay the page with the attributes displayed.

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I would think the cache owner should be the one to decide if they're going to be displayed on the page.

I'm really suprised to hear this from you, an experienced web guy. A strongly recurring mantra of the web is that display/formatting/display decisions should be the choice of the reader, not the publisher. Yeah, there have been missteps along the way like the innumerable bad HTML tags, PDF, and such, but they've been consistently on the way out in favor of choice of the reader since there are MANY more readers than writers.. Display and formatting choices should be the choice of the viewer/reader and the content provider.

 

If Joe Stud cacher wants to not see any of this attribute stuff and hunt 'em all, let him go nuts.

 

If Wally Wimpy cacher wants to see only caches within 9 inches of pavement that can be hunted in under 4 seconds, let him.

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Umm.. Why are we getting bogged down with if the attributes should be displayed. What other information on the cache page is optional other than the logs beyond the last 5?

 

Just put them discreetly on the page and be done with it.

 

A line of small icons directly under the D.T stars is a lot different than the massive boxes of large icons and text that the Selector puts out.

 

Second notion, how do you cache the page if it's dynamic based on the reader? This would mean you could no longer cache the page if it becomes needed in the future. (Let's not issue a "no one will ever need more than 640k of memory"-type of statement. The old maps lost the ability to display your own finds and I like them a lot better than the new ones.)

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I would think the cache owner should be the one to decide if they're going to be displayed on the page.

I'm really suprised to hear this from you, an experienced web guy. A strongly recurring mantra of the web is that display/formatting/display decisions should be the choice of the reader, not the publisher. Yeah, there have been missteps along the way like the innumerable bad HTML tags, PDF, and such, but they've been consistently on the way out in favor of choice of the reader since there are MANY more readers than writers.. Display and formatting choices should be the choice of the viewer/reader and the content provider.

 

If Joe Stud cacher wants to not see any of this attribute stuff and hunt 'em all, let him go nuts.

 

If Wally Wimpy cacher wants to see only caches within 9 inches of pavement that can be hunted in under 4 seconds, let him.

The viewer does have the choice. The choice it to either initially not show any icons, or to show the icons the cache owner has selected to be shown. If the cache owner wants to have certain attributes for search purposes and GPX files, but to not have them on the cache page, they ought to be able to.

 

If you're the owner of "Bob's Bring-Your-Flashlight After Sunset Night Cache", and you explicitly explain in the cache text how this is a night cache, and can only be hunted at night, you might find it more than a bit redundant to also have the night-cache icon on the page. But you do want people to be able search for caches with the night-cache attribute and find your cache listing.

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Second notion, how do you cache the page if it's dynamic based on the reader? This would mean you could no longer cache the page if it becomes needed in the future.

you then could cache a page that had the icons and cache a page that did not have the icons and the server would grab the page based on the users prefrence. page caching would still be possible.

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If the intent for these attributes is for more extensive filtering wouldn't it be counter productive to give the user the option of using these attributes or not? If the user is not using the attributes than it would seem any kind of filtering would be void. Other than putting pretty icons on a cache page I really don't see the relevance in using this concept.

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If the intent for these attributes is for more extensive filtering wouldn't it be counter productive to give the user the option of using these attributes or not?

If I hand you a cookie you can decide whether to eat it or not.

 

If the user is not using the attributes than it would seem any kind of filtering would be void.

 

If by "the user" you mean "everyone who uses the site" then yes, I suppose if everyone who uses the site didn't want to use filtering than it would be void.

 

Other than putting pretty icons on a cache page I really don't see the relevance in using this concept

 

Well, you may not find the relevance but based on the billion posts on "dog friendly," "handicapped acessible," etc. posts in the past I believe this functionality has been highly requested and useful for many people. It does seem that user defined viewing of attributes would be the best implementation at this point.

 

As for pretty icons, I'm rather fond of well designed and understood eye candy so you can quickly glance at a listing and know what is going on. I suppose if enough people do want ugly icons that aren't very useful, I can add that functionality as well.

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As for pretty icons, I'm rather fond of well designed and understood eye candy so you can quickly glance at a listing and know what is going on. I suppose if enough people do want ugly icons that aren't very useful, I can add that functionality as well.

I have no problem with pretty icons. I do have a problem with large, bulky icons that are irrelevant if the person putting out the cache takes the time to include them in their cache page.

 

Of course, as a teacher I realize that many people are visual learners - so I understand why many like them.

 

In short, I would love to have my caches searchable by the attributes I choose to assign to them.

 

However, I would also love the option to not display the icons if they are going to be large and cumbersome (I'm gonna guess that a few icons would not be, but if somebody used a lot of attributes it could be distracting).

 

---------

 

Anyways, from what I can tell - you (Jeremy) are well aware of the concerns and will take them into consideration as you implement this new feature. I don't know how you're going to do it, but I'm sure it'll be done well.

 

I think that it's good to discuss these features so some of the bugs can be ironed out BEFORE implementation.

 

---------

 

Now - I do think a "Historical Significance" attribute would be nice. If you hovered over it - it would tell you to "read page for more information".

 

I agree the "dangerous area" icon SHOULD allow you to hover over the image to see the message "Read cache page for specific dangers".

 

southdeltan

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I want to see the pretty Icons, as long as they are relevant.

 

But if I see is "Motorcycles not allowed, Quads not allowed, Off-road vehicles not allowed, Snowmobiles not allowed, Campfires not allowed and Horses not allowed" for a typical city park, it might be considered clutter.

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What if you only show a subset of icons on the page and the rest on a pop up?

 

Advisory icons like for special equipment, availability, and hazards would show up. But the ones like ATVs or camping don't. Some need to be in your face, others don't.

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OK...I'm trying to make sense of what Jeremy said he is going to implement here. From reading the last 3 pages of posts, this is what I gathered:

 

1) as a cache owner, I can decide to use the cache attributes or not; if I don't, then users won't be able to filter on those attributes, and vice versa

 

2) if I choose to use cache attributes on a cache of mine, then based on a user's preferences, they can choose to see my cache with or without the attribute(s) that I have picked

 

3) for the attribute(s) I have chosen, there will be a hover message regarding that attribute(s)

 

4) attributes will be on the right side of the cache page, if chosen, above the logs

 

5) if I choose to show "poisonous snakes" and "dangerous cliffs" attributes, then those are the only two that will show on my page and the only two that people can filter on

 

5) the jury is still out on whether the icons will be big and ugly or small (and one assumes nice looking)

 

6) you will be handing out cookies (yum) :D

 

Is this correct Jeremy? Can you generate a fake cache page with some attributes to show us what it will look like?

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What if you only show a subset of icons on the page and the rest on a pop up?

 

Advisory icons like for special equipment, availability, and hazards would show up. But the ones like ATVs or camping don't. Some need to be in your face, others don't.

Exactly. This is what I was trying to suggest when I said:

 

I like the idea of of just listing the categories with a hover bubble showing all the attributes, in all cases...

 

A limited number of categorical icons would appear when relevant, as suggested by CR, with bubbles that provide the details when you hover over the categorical icons.

 

This way the information is available to all who want it, but the overzealous cache owner's ability to cover the page with icons is limited to the number of catgorical icons.

 

The only glitch I see is for those who print the pages - I don't how you'd handle the printing of pop-ups details (perhaps the printer friendly version would show the attributes in a list?).

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If the intent for these attributes is for more extensive filtering wouldn't it be counter productive to give the user the option of using these attributes or not?

If I hand you a cookie you can decide whether to eat it or not.

 

If the user is not using the attributes than it would seem any kind of filtering would be void.

 

If by "the user" you mean "everyone who uses the site" then yes, I suppose if everyone who uses the site didn't want to use filtering than it would be void.

 

Other than putting pretty icons on a cache page I really don't see the relevance in using this concept

 

Well, you may not find the relevance but based on the billion posts on "dog friendly," "handicapped acessible," etc. posts in the past I believe this functionality has been highly requested and useful for many people. It does seem that user defined viewing of attributes would be the best implementation at this point.

 

As for pretty icons, I'm rather fond of well designed and understood eye candy so you can quickly glance at a listing and know what is going on. I suppose if enough people do want ugly icons that aren't very useful, I can add that functionality as well.

I use The Selector icons on the few cache pages I have.. So I'm not apposed to this concept. I'm totally for better filtering options, but I don't see that happening.

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I'm totally for better filtering options, but I don't see that happening.

That's odd. Why?

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ahhh, ahhh, ahhhhh, THE SELECTOR!

 

drives me nuts, all those icons. i think they look goofy. the more of them there are, the goofier they look. of course, the one attribute that interests me does not look geeky, but still...

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I believe a lot of thought and strong consideration should go into changes made.

 

A quick story:

eBay used to be a great auction site in my opinion, then they;

added picture hosting

added a “buy it now”

added a reserve price

added “turbo lister”

and on and on….

For over 5 years I was a volunteer on their HTML help forum site. Now all the online help boards are full of complaints on the changes.

 

Attributes, I’ll never use them. I think the site is fine. If you are getting the site ready for a sale or something, make it fancy. If the site is for geocachers, leave it be. How about working on access on Sunday afternoons when traffic peeks.

 

PS. I think the map options can be narrowed down a little also. Do we really need 8.

 

2 cents from TTF

Edited by Team Texas Flash

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I perceive all this discussing has done nothing more than slow down the implementation of this much requested feature.

 

As such, I vote to table further discussion until it's been installed.

 

Then we can complain about the specific execution, rather than complaining about the theorized implementation!

 

Hah,

 

Randy

 

PS: Oy! My condolences to Jeremy--but that's why he makes the big bucks...

 

PPS: Hopefully the pending "Love the new attributes!" thread will get at least as many posts as this thread!

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eBay used to be a great auction site in my opinion, then they [...]

became massively successful?

 

I wouldn't compare eBay to Geocaching.com much. Attributes will be huge. Trust me. :)

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I hate to add a new suggestion (especially right after joking about the critiques), but after "Wings & Beer" last night, another thought occurred to me. For caches in rather public areas: "Muggles"

 

I've read in the forums that some avoid these caches and comb descriptions to see if they'd be uncomfortable searching for them.

 

Or to put it another way: "May require discretion"

 

Just throwing it out there,

 

Randy

 

PS: Whoops--now notice this was suggested in the first few posts of this thread. My bad!

Edited by RJFerret

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Selectable attributes is a great idea!

 

I didn't see this explicitely mentioned in this thread, but I hope that the PQ filtering logic has some boolean capabilities. I'd like to be able to AND some attributes and OR some others. I don't mind having to go to a complex UI, perhaps called "Advanced Filtering" to use this higher-order select logic.

 

[edited for spelling]

Edited by Saltheart

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After grabbing a couple quick caches it occured that a popular one for this area (and others) would be...

 

- High clearance vehicle suggested.

- Four wheel drive suggested.

 

I only say "suggested" because a person could walk the 5 miles down the dirt road if they wanted.

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I'd like to have an attribute for: "The cache is NOT at the above coordinates". (I really want to be able to filter for that).

 

I'll join others in saying that I would also love to see a "parking coordinates attribute".

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I'd like to have an attribute for: "The cache is NOT at the above coordinates". (I really want to be able to filter for that).

We already have a cache icon for that. It's a giant question mark.

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I would rather have a tool to automatically build a nice cache page.

Try one of many HTML editors available on the internet. There are quite a few nice free ones. Just do a search on one of the major software sites like cnet.com or tucows.com. Once you have it, just create your page and then save the HTML to copy into the cache description. Be sure to check the "HTML Provided" box.

 

...now back to our regularly scheduled program.

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I like the idea very much. In fact I use a German version of The Selector.

 

Anyhow I miss a few cache attributes

 

Special Equipment:

binocular:

cfcb9f15-7697-485d-86c2-9f72f97954cb.jpg

 

compass:

compass.gif

 

Nightvision Device (yes there are some in Germany):

googles.gif

 

flashlight:

flashlight.gif

 

Conditions:

Cave:

spelunk.gif

 

oneway-tripway0.gif or round-tripway1.gif (for Multi-caches)

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I could just see some dinglehopper* with a cache that looks like this:

a8334a1e-6252-4689-84c0-68e32b803432.jpg

 

*One of Markwell's deragatory terms for people who abuse stuff just for the sake of abusing it.

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Markwell raises a good point. Take a look at instructions on the demo page. They ask the cache owner to, “Choose the attributes that apply to your cache.” Without further guidance, we’re likely to see a highly inconsistent use of this feature.

 

The challenge is that the proposed cache attributes serve two important, but different, purposes. They are intended to be criteria for cache selection -- which would drive a cache owner to be comprensive in their use. They are also, as icons on the cache page, a way to alert cachers to conditions that they may not otherwise expect -- which drives a more judicious use.

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I'd like to have an attribute for: "The cache is NOT at the above coordinates".  (I really want to be able to filter for that).

We already have a cache icon for that. It's a giant question mark.

Not necessarily. Only traditionals are required to be at the posted coordinates.

 

I think a more useful flag would be "Can be found without cache page". This would include traditionals, plus multi-caches where every stage was a container of some sort, with coordinates to the next stage.

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I added a spy icon for "requires stealth" which is more encompassing than saying there are people around.

 

I'm still not completely convinced about adding a "cache is not at posted coordinates" however. All multicaches should have an origin cache that explains how to get the next, and so forth. An unknown means that the cache is not listed at the coordinates. I know that there may be a problem with mislabeling the cache as a multi when it should be a puzzle but adding an attribute won't fix it either.

 

Regarding the enormous number of icons, at this point I'm leaning towards a distinct icon for each category and providing a hover that shows all of the attributes. On the print version it would just list the categories and a comma delimited list of the attributes for each category.

Edited by Jeremy

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Regarding the enormous number of icons, at this point I'm leaning towards a distinct icon for each category and providing a hover that shows all of the attributes. On the print version it would just list the categories and a comma delimited list of the attributes for each category.

Excellent compromise that allows comprehensive selection of attributes for filtering but keeps the number of icons on the cache page manageable (maximum of 4)! I'd suggest making the icon for the "hazards" category an eye catcher so that it stands out from the others.

 

I'd also like to suggest that "access fee" belongs under "permissions", not "special equipment". I know that it involves spending money, but it's really an issue of permission to access the site, not equipment (which doesn't involve spending money, if you already have the equipment).

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I'm still not completely convinced about adding a "cache is not at posted coordinates" however. All multicaches should have an origin cache that explains how to get the next, and so forth. An unknown means that the cache is not listed at the coordinates. I know that there may be a problem with mislabeling the cache as a multi when it should be a puzzle but adding an attribute won't fix it either.

I see the problem. I was not thinking of multi-caches because there typically is something to find at the posted coordinates (i.e. stage 1). I was thinking of puzzle caches that pop up on the GPS when you have not had a chance to solve the puzzle. It seems to me that many "unknown" caches are such that the posted coordinates are relevant and require a visit or are at least the site of parking. I want to be able to sort for that.

 

I guess what I really am looking for is a code for "the posted coordinates have nothing whatsoever to do with the cache except to put it on the map someplace in the state/province where the cache is located". Is there a way to say that with fewer words yet more clearly?

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ahhh, ahhh, ahhhhh, THE SELECTOR!

 

drives me nuts, all those icons. i think they look goofy. the more of them there are, the goofier they look. of course, the one attribute that interests me does not look geeky, but still...

Ummm.... did this post have a point? If so, what was it? :lol:

 

I like the idea very much. In fact I use a German version of The Selector.

Nice. Very nice. No credit or permission granted there either. :(

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Nice. Very nice. No credit or permission granted there either. :huh:

As statet above on the webpage: It's a non-official testversion. Anyway if you want to complain there is a mail-address given.

 

(No it's not my page)

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I've been thinking. I don't know how this can be done of even IF it can be done. But maybe someoene can think of a way to take this further.

 

This involves the display of the attributes. Instead of forcing everyone to comply with one way of having the attributes displayed what if there was a choice.

 

This is a combination of what has been talked about here AND how the Selector is used.

 

Okay, rough draft. You are given the choice of automatically displaying the attributes on your page as generated by the site or not. So, because you can turn off the attributes, you now can display them however you like; buttons with or without text, links, lists, whatever. However, you are limited only to the attributes that you've picked, nothing else.

 

You could just not show the attributes generated by the site and show your own ala The Selector, but then there is the possibility of not showing the same ones that you picked, either through error or intent.

 

In the beginning, you have to build your custom attribute lists by hand. Later tools can come online, here or 3rd party, to help build these lists based on the attributes grabbed from your page.

 

Thoughts?

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ahhh, ahhh, ahhhhh, THE SELECTOR!

 

drives me nuts, all those icons. i think they look goofy. the more of them there are, the goofier they look. of course, the one attribute that interests me does not look geeky, but still...

Ummm.... did this post have a point? If so, what was it? :D

 

I like the idea very much. In fact I use a German version of The Selector.

Nice. Very nice. No credit or permission granted there either. :D

Ummm.... did this post have a point? If so, what was it?

 

Seems off topic to me. Either get over it or hire an attorney and sue eveyrone who puts forward an idea even remotely like "The Selector", including Apple Computers and Microsoft - no wait, I think they were using computer icons before The Selector. :P

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Instead of forcing everyone to comply with one way of having the attributes displayed what if there was a choice.

I'm not sure who has the choice in your proposed approach - the person who creates the page, or the person who views the page?

 

The person who creates the page already has a choice - by not selecting any attributes. Of course, this makes filtering unreliable, but that's life in the free world.

 

If you mean give the choice to the person who views the page, I see what you're getting at, but I don't know how feasible it would be to implement. I'd rather see a quick implementation like Jeremy is suggesting rather than a choice that takes a year to implement (the perfect is the enemy of the good, as they say).

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I'm not sure if this fits 100% in this topic, but here goes. What about a distinction for series caches where they are their own type such as traditionals and multis and so on. And then making it where you can search specifically for those types of caches.

Edited by Irish-Texan

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