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Jeremy

Cache Attributes

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By looking at, say, "Climbing Gear" you have "N/A" and "Required." Is "N/A" the same as saying "Climbing Gear Not Required?"

No. It means you didn't choose it at all, so it won't show up as an icon. I know N/A stands for "not applicable" so we should probably pick something like "not selected" - however I wanted to keep the text short and sweet. Have another suggestion as an alternative?

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This causes me to have to perfom 10 seperate PQ's to get from Monterey to Portland....

Ok, this is the big point from your description. You're trying to force a cache attribute to do the work of "caches along a route" - Although it would be a quick & dirty solution it isn't a really good long term solution. I think we'll solve your issue with the route solution, not attributes.

 

There is a "Takes less than an hour" attribute which would fit most quick caches. If you chose "no" then it would mean that it takes more than an hour. Seems like a nice middle ground.

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I'm not sure Jeremy, I am kind of liking this attribute as opposed to the caches along a route idea. Or even in conjunction with the caches along a route. When I am planning road trips, I often filter out level 3's and 4's that I am more than willing to do as long as I am nearby, just to get the cache count under control.

 

I guess that caches along a route, in conjunction with filtering out that take more than an hour will help a lot. The question would remain, when do you start the stop watch? At the parking spot? Near major road or intersection? The cache owner's house? I guess that would need to be clarified at some point also. I have been on caches that took a 45 minute ride down a dirt road plus a 15 minute walk to complete. And I had fun doing it too!

 

Thanks!

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One of my early database classes said that with True/False answers there should always be True, False and Unselected. Unforutnately, with a simple True/False, "unselected" BECOMES "false" - and that could be problematic.

 

FOR EXAMPLE, let's say you've got an attribute for "Needs Waders" - meaning you need to wear waders to get to the cache.

 

But then you've got an old cache that DOES require waders to get to, but the user never selected the waders attribute (either he's long gone and never updates the page, or he doesn't want to tell people they need waders - he wants a surprise).

 

The DEFAULT would be false - meaning that you don't need waders, and that's not necessarily correct.

 

Admittedly, it's no different than not knowing NOW whether or not you need waders, but I would hope that this would be set up to accomodate all possibilities: True, False, and Not Chosen.

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I disagree. I see it as "I haven't chosen this one for my own reasons" whether it is I don't know or I don't want you to know. The icon won't be there so, in essence, it doesn't tell you anything. I won't be showing icons for that attribute if it isn't selected.

 

I suppose if I showed a greyed out version of the icon on the cache listing you may think of it in the negative sense, but that isn't how the display will work.

 

Now searching on these features are a future implementation. What I need to do is get attributes going so people can start updating their cache listings. Once there has been adequate changes to existing cache entries we'll start implementing search options.

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the equivalent of "This attribute intentionally left blank."

 

Thanks.

I want to be able to do this as well, in the good old days of 2000, I got a large amount of fun, researching the trail and area around a geocache to decide what I needed to get to it. So in my current hides, I don't give everything away and don't want to do that for future caches. I also hope there are enough like minded people who don't give everything away on their caches.

 

So yes, make it where a hider doesn't have to say if something is required or not. Example the hider can say "Climbing Gear is required", "Climbing Gear isn't required" or "nothing is said about Climbing Gear". I don't want people getting upset and saying "you didn't say climbing gear was required".

Edited by AllenLacy

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Example the hider can say "Climbing Gear is  required", "Climbing Gear isn't required" or "nothing is said about Climbing Gear".

That is "N/A" which I wrote in a previous response is probably inaccurate. It either shows up as an icon or it doesn't. If it doesn't, that info was not provided by the cache owner.

 

Try using the page. Select some options and hit the button. You only see icons that you selected "yes" or "no" on.

Edited by Jeremy

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On the "yes," "no," "N/A" issue I think you've got it right after thinking about for a while.

 

There will be situations where someone can't search on response and get an accurate return, but by in large it will be accurate enough.

 

What about the "Commando/AIR" attribute? I think there should be a three state choice there.

 

I think a heading of "Not Selected" would suffice. Stack the "Not" on top of the appropriate words and you should have the room you need. Barring that, "N/S" with an explanation in the legend.

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I wanted to add... As far as the Icons, I like the way the bubble pops up with when you hover over the icon.

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Just a question from a different angle.

 

With abandoned caches that "we" the cachers are taking care of after the "owners" have dropped off the radar, will "we" be able to contact a local approver to have them change the cache page to reflect the use of these new attributes?

 

And as for the grab and go cachers out there, how about a selection of time frames for doing the cache, out and back;

 

less then 30 minutes; 30 minutes to 1 hour; in excess of 1 hour.

 

The cache placer pretty much knows all the local cachers and will be able to judge how long it will take the majority of them to do the cache on average. Out of towners will just have to chance it.

 

logscaler.

 

(Edit) Well I guess I missed that time frame the first go around. Sorry. Or your pretty dang fast. (Edited once again for stupid fingers.)

Edited by logscaler

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Can I assume this tool will be available to non-premium members?

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Can I assume this tool will be available to non-premium members?

I would assume anyone would be able to add them to their cache pages, and view them on other cache pages. Of course, you're not going to be able to get them in GPX files, if you can't already get GPX files, so in that respect I gues it's a partial "member's only" feature.

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By looking at, say, "Climbing Gear" you have "N/A" and "Required."  Is "N/A" the same as saying "Climbing Gear Not Required?"

No. It means you didn't choose it at all, so it won't show up as an icon. I know N/A stands for "not applicable" so we should probably pick something like "not selected" - however I wanted to keep the text short and sweet. Have another suggestion as an alternative?

How about using "Req" and "Not Req." Just post a legend that states "Req = Required" and "Not Req = Not Required".

 

Zack

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Hi Jeremy

How about adding Accessible using Public Transport

How Accessible is Accessible? A bus toa locaiton ~5 walking mins away? 10? 20? If they did something like that it would need to be yes/no/didn't check (or similar) as the options.

 

Thorin

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Can I assume this tool will be available to non-premium members?

Yes. Prime Suspect's response is correct.

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One thought I had...

 

Cache contains a cache camera.

 

Of course, not really useful for assisting planning a search, but it's a good indicator of many things like cache size, and amount of planning that went into placing the cache. Plus, it might serve to encourage cache cameras, which are cool.

 

Jamie

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Sweet! This'll really step up the site.

 

I second the poison plants and raise it one "ticks". I have one cache I can guarantee tick exposures...(field where deer bed down near the beach of all places).

 

Then again, perhaps poison plants/pests could be one category? (Overlaying a tick image over 3 leaves for the icon?)

 

I also second the "near highway exit" option for travellers. I think it will enhance the "cache along a route" feature but offers it's own merits worthy of inclusion.

 

Would "Available during winter" be better stated as "Snow accessible"?

 

Thanks for the continuing good work,

 

Randy

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Looks similar to something else I've seen...

I agree 9Key, this sounds like what you have over on Texas Geocaching. Are you getting a "kick-back" on this for coming up with the idea? :laughing:

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I added some items, and included some javascript to switch between the different attributes to make the experience more visual.

 

On my dev box I now have it hooked up to cache data to update the table with the attributes once you hit submit. Because of the way we do replication it will take a bit to add the new fields to the cache data so we can start seeing this on the cache pages. Obviously with the Washington Times and the Parade magazine article (and the upcoming weekend) we'll hold off until mid next week to add these fields.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

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I like the subtly changing icon. I don't know if making the slash red to match the international "no" moniker would make the total iconage better or worse.

 

Please do consider making the section header "pop" a little more. Whether that's horizontal rules, a different text attribute (font size +20% or stroke bold or whatever) or a standoff color, or something else I'll leave to the more artistically inclined.

 

I think this idea has a lot of promise to help folks find the caches that do or don't arouse them. (OTOH, there are enough miscategorized caches with the rules we have now that I wonder how well this will work.)

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Clicking "no public tranportation" gives me a red x.

 

I think I agree with RL that the it might be better with the red slash. At least a test to see what it looks like.

 

Jamie

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Oh! Oh! How could I have missed this one?!

 

NON-TRADING CACHE

 

This way people could filter on "trading" and not on micros!

 

This seems to have come up quite often and I've always maintained that micros don't mean "non-trading" though it seems that way in a lot of places.

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Looking good so far.

 

I do have to question something. "Snakes" and "Ticks." Around here, you step off the pavement you'll likely to encounter ticks and chiggers. Step into a wooded area and it's not uncommon to run into a snake.

 

This is not to mention that both are very seasonal. Should there be an explaination so that just because you live in the South those two aren't on by default? Maybe something like "Heavy Tick Infestation" or "Large Poisonous Snake Population."

 

Or a column on the other side of N/A with more details? "Ticks" could have "Use for heavy ticks or chiggers infestation." "Snake" could have "Large population/likely habitat of poisionous snakes"

 

Thanks!

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I wanted to add... As far as the Icons, I like the way the bubble pops up with when you hover over the icon.

Need to add the <title></title> tags to get this to work in all browsers.

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Call me old fashioned and i know im in the minority, but for me this is not important. Ive seen cache pages cluttered with these little symbols and i just scroll right past them. Yes, i can see a few of these being helpful to some. For example: people who cache with their dogs or that the cache is handicapped accessible. But even these attributes can easily be mentioned in the cache description. I look at the description, its difficulty ratings, and its map. This gives me a pretty good idea on what to expect with the cache. Yes, maybe the cache description should point out any of the "big things" a person needs to look for. Of course sometimes thats not the case, so i try to be prepared for those times. By the way, poison ivy and ticks arent big things. :unsure:

 

Part of the caching fun for me is planning, getting prepared, wondering what to expect, and sometimes being surprised by what i find. You giving me all these details takes yet more of the adventure out of the caching experience!

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Call me old fashioned and i know im in the minority, but for me this is not important. Ive seen cache pages cluttered with these little symbols and i just scroll right past them.

I think the biggest advantage to the attributes is that you'll be able to search and/or sort by them.

 

Tonight, in fact, I was discussing geocaching with an interested coworker. He asked how he would know if he ought to bring his 7-year old kid with him. I told him that this new feature would allow him to search for caches that are labeled as kid-friendly.

 

Without the attributes, you could go by the difficulty and terrain ratings, but that could still put you at a lame micro in a parking lot.

 

Or what if you want to bring your dog. Search for dog-friendly caches.

 

Jamie

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Call me old fashioned and i know im in the minority, but for me this is not important. Ive seen cache pages cluttered with these little symbols and i just scroll right past them.

I think the biggest advantage to the attributes is that you'll be able to search and/or sort by them.

 

Tonight, in fact, I was discussing geocaching with an interested coworker. He asked how he would know if he ought to bring his 7-year old kid with him. I told him that this new feature would allow him to search for caches that are labeled as kid-friendly.

 

Without the attributes, you could go by the difficulty and terrain ratings, but that could still put you at a lame micro in a parking lot.

 

Or what if you want to bring your dog. Search for dog-friendly caches.

 

Jamie

Yes, wasnt really looking at it from that view but i understand what you are saying. Only thing is that not everyone will use these on their cache pages. In that case i would imagine that a person filtering out, say kid friendly caches, would miss out on quite a few!

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I would strongly appreciate the implementation of an icon on the Groundspeak website for explicit night caches. :unsure:

 

It often happens that I want to do a cache by night and try to find night caches - but as they are not yet marked and categorized as explicit night caches this is nearly impossible.

Because of this I would really be glad if that option would be invented. I think of just clicking a checkbox when reporting a new cache: explicit night cache yes/no.

 

Should be not that difficult...

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Call me old fashioned and i know im in the minority, but for me this is not important. Ive seen cache pages cluttered with these little symbols and i just scroll right past them.

As has been said, the point of the project is NOT to be able to put little icons on the cache pages. We can already do that.

 

The idea is to answer the request of, "how do I find night caches, caches near equestrian trails, travel bug hotels, cache that area wheelchair accessable, etc." We'll be able to FILTER our searches to locate caches that meet our criteria.

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The idea is to answer the request of, "how do I find night caches, caches near equestrian trails, travel bug hotels, cache that area wheelchair accessable, etc." We'll be able to FILTER our searches to locate caches that meet our criteria.

 

Again, i understand this and it sounds like a good idea. Very helpful for filtering of caches a person is interested in. I just dont care to see every little "annoyance" (ticks, poison ivy, wear sunscreen, might get your feet wet, etc,,,), listed on a cache page.

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I understand and support the idea of attributes but I probably won't use them due to the fact that I don't like to see the icons on pages. I always put pertinent information in the cache description - where it should be. I do understand that this isn't about the icons but about being able to filter and search for caches.

 

I hope there will be an option that allows you to set the attributes for your cache page yet NOT put the icons on the page.

 

"Display attribute icons? Y/N".

 

southdeltan

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I understand and support the idea of attributes but I probably won't use them due to the fact that I don't like to see the icons on pages. I always put pertinent information in the cache description - where it should be. I do understand that this isn't about the icons but about being able to filter and search for caches.

 

I hope there will be an option that allows you to set the attributes for your cache page yet NOT put the icons on the page.

 

"Display attribute icons? Y/N".

 

southdeltan

I was going to make the same suggestion. Some people do "theme" pages and may not want the icon clutter, but still want people to be able to find it by attributes.

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I can see Mudfrog and Southdeltan's points... the icons may take away some of the fun of the unknown for some people.

Perhaps a "travel bug hotel" icon could be made?

MarcB

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Call me old fashioned and i know im in the minority, but for me this is not important. Ive seen cache pages cluttered with these little symbols and i just scroll right past them...

You may be in the minority but you are not alone.

 

The only time I pay attention to them is, well I'm still trying to come up with a time. Odds are I won't use them. However the request for "SCUBA" caches comes up enough to where finding a cache that fits your special angle is a good thing. Hopefully they won't add another couple of megs to ta pocket query.

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Camera in Cache icon would be usefull. I want people going to my caches to know about the camera and look for it in the container. Also the parking icon a change for when you have to pay for parking. Getting very common in the UK.

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Speaking as a lazy and indecisive person, I'd absolutely hate filling out that form as a hider. I have two whole cache hides to my name, and I just ran down the list with them in mind. My answers, in no particular order, were:

 

Geez, I don't know

I guess so

I didn't see any signs

I don't see why not

I doubt it, but I didn't explore the whole park

What am I, your mother?

Are we talking, like, a wheelchair basketball player here?

Well, there was a murder nearby once

Oh, THAT would make the park manager cross

I didn't see any

Define "poisonous"

I don't know, what sort of things do your kids like?

Who would I ask?

You could if nobody was looking

Yes, but don't let on I said you could

 

I don't do well in binary situations. I need some shades of gray here.

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I love the idea and I want to suggest cutting down the number of available icon options, both for folks like AuntieWeasel and to minimize clutter on the pages (and among the PQ options, which are already somewhat complex).

 

Of those listed on the test page, I'd recommend dropping the following, which seem inherent in being outdoors or redundant:

 

Campfires (redundant with "camping available")

 

Cactus, Snakes, Ticks: inherent in being outdoors in certain regions and seasons, unless these are reserved to those areas with unusual amounts of same (e.g. a cache hidden in a viper pit).

 

Dangerous Area: redundant with Cliff/falling rocks, Hunting, Poison plants, Cactus, Snakes, Ticks and Abandoned mines, and doesn't really tell you anything useful (what kind of danger?). Reminds me of the robot on Lost in Space waving it's arms and bellowing, "Danger, Danger Will Robinson!" without offering a clue about the nature of the danger! :ph34r:

 

Picnic Tables Nearby: are people really going to select or reject caches based on this one?

 

I'd also vote to add parking coordinates right below the main cache coordinates on the page - this might eliminate the need for "Parking Nearby".

 

This is a great idea, for the ability to search and filter, but it can easily become too much of a good thing!

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I understand and support the idea of attributes but I probably won't use them due to the fact that I don't like to see the icons on pages. I always put pertinent information in the cache description - where it should be. I do understand that this isn't about the icons but about being able to filter and search for caches.

 

I hope there will be an option that allows you to set the attributes for your cache page yet NOT put the icons on the page.

 

"Display attribute icons? Y/N".

 

southdeltan

DITTO! For filtering this will be nice. Im sure i would sometimes use them for that purpose if there is an option NOT to have the icons displayed on the cache page...

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Campfires (redundant with "camping available")

 

Dangerous Area: redundant ...

Not all campground permit campfires. You must cook your food with a stove.

 

Dangerous Area is for dangers not specified in the other attributes. You can't possibly list all dangers so I see this one as a catch-all. This can be included to alert the finder to ead the cache page closely or be especially vigilant.

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Cactus, Snakes, Ticks: inherent in being outdoors in certain regions and seasons, unless these are reserved to those areas with unusual amounts of same (e.g. a cache hidden in a viper pit).

 

I think poisionous snakes should be an attribute. Who cares if there garter snakes in the area, but I'd want to know if there was a good chance I could step on a rattlesnake or copperhead while searching for the cache.

 

Historic interest is another attribute I'd like to see.

Edited by briansnat

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Historic interest is another attribute I'd like to see.

I like this idea, and would even go further and suggest a number of related categories of attributes like:

  • historic interest
  • coffee-tablesque beauty
  • waterfall
  • geological formations
  • climb with view
  • fall foliage
  • great animal life

 

nfa-jamie

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At first I was thinking that was over the top, but considering the recent thread in our regional forum to list caches with good foliage views, I can see it.

 

It would be fabulous to be able to filter a search on "foliage" or "birding spot" and exclude "historical". (Hehe, just kidding!)

 

Since it won't show if it's not selected, it shouldn't be too cumbersome.

 

(Of course, some joker is going to try to place a cache with as MANY features as possible, the "Icon Cache"--roll your wheelchair onto a raft to cross the water, onto a platform that elevates you past the poison ivy to the top of the cliff, watch the rattlesnakes amongst the rocks, roll off at the top, avoiding the prickers to view the eagles fishing at the base of the waterfall upriver where an indian guide fell in love with a colonist while washing her hair...watch out for the campers, dogs and bikes encouraged at night!)

 

Heh,

 

Randy

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I can see Mudfrog and Southdeltan's points... the icons may take away some of the fun of the unknown for some people.

Perhaps a "travel bug hotel" icon could be made?

MarcB

Just for clarification: I am not one of the people that beleive leaving useful (dare I say important) information off of a cache page adds to the mystery or experience.

 

I always try to add anything that's relevant to the TEXT of my cache page.

 

I just don't like clutter on my pages, and imo that's what the icons will present.

 

Hence the request for a way to add the attributes without adding the icons.

 

southdeltan

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Good point about it getting a bit too large on a cache page. There are several ways we could address it.

 

1. User choice: User decides to show them as icons or as text. If by text it may just be a comma list of attributes.

 

2. Cache listing choice - the cache owner decides how it is displayed.

 

3. Programically list - If there are too many icons, the site either a ) only lists the categories with a hover bubble showing all the attributes or b ) most important attributes shown with a (...) shown to bring a popup to show all the attributes.

 

4. Smaller icons? We could shrink the icons down a bit.

 

The display of the icons will be on the right-hand side below all the logging options. We've been playing around with how benchmarks are displayed and may just have a right-hand column that contains all the additional data about a cache. Farther down we would list attribute icons 3 across and N depth.

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User choice sounds good:

Icons

Text

Or maybe not at all...?

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Good point about it getting a bit too large on a cache page. There are several ways we could address it.

 

1. User choice: User decides to show them as icons or as text. If by text it may just be a comma list of attributes.

 

2. Cache listing choice - the cache owner decides how it is displayed.

 

3. Programically list - If there are too many icons, the site either a ) only lists the categories with a hover bubble showing all the attributes or b ) most important attributes shown with a (...) shown to bring a popup to show all the attributes.

 

4. Smaller icons? We could shrink the icons down a bit.

 

The display of the icons will be on the right-hand side below all the logging options. We've been playing around with how benchmarks are displayed and may just have a right-hand column that contains all the additional data about a cache. Farther down we would list attribute icons 3 across and N depth.

Hi,

 

I think it should be both user and owner driven, as regards the presentation of info. There will certainly be attribute information I do not want to include on my cache listings, and there may well be attribute information that a user does not want to see.

 

nfa-jamie

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I think it should be both user and owner driven, as regards the presentation of info.

Of course! That's usually the case. I'd like all of the above. But if you only had one choice, what would it be?

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