Cave Troll & Joan - Why Premium Members Only?

Posted August 13, 2004 · August 13, 2004

Why do all of Cave Troll and Joan's Scrabble Challenges say:

Sorry, the owner of this listing has made it viewable to subscribers only. Visit the premium member page to find out how to upgrade your account to a premium member.

I'd like to do it but I can't afford to be a premium member. :lol:

Why is it only for those?

Posted August 13, 2004 · August 13, 2004

Hi USB

Some of the reasons can be found here i guess - but youre not on your own i'm sure!

Scrabble Challenge

Posted August 13, 2004 · August 13, 2004

Why is it only for those?

Why not?

It'll probably get put over to a free for all in the future, but that is up to Cave Troll and Joan of course :lol:

Posted August 13, 2004 · August 13, 2004

Hi usb_dude,

While I see where you are coming from and I see you are young, do you really not have $3/month to spare? If not, then you can't afford to do a seven part multi cache anyway.

Sorry if that sounds hard, but there are plenty of non-member caches that are available to you.

Posted August 13, 2004 · August 13, 2004

Just to put this in perspective there are currently 13 members only caches in the entire UK out 3-4000 caches and rising. Possible priveledges for members were discussed here. Hope this helps. Most of these caches do become available after a space of time, the famous (or is that infamous) alchemy series started life as a members only series of caches.

Posted August 13, 2004 · August 13, 2004

Well it was for about an hour... then I got lynched!

The reason why I made it members only was because there was a cache-trasher about - if I placed a cache, I would want as many people as possible to find it.

MarcB

Posted August 13, 2004 · August 13, 2004

I have no objection to members only caches.

usb_dude I belive is one of our younger members and even if he/she can afford the $3 a month may not have the means to transfer the money independently.

This may well become open to everyone in the future and then it becomes possible for him/her.

Be patient and wait a while or contact Mark and Joan and let them explain their reasons.

Having met them I am sure they will be supportive and more than willing to explain their reasons.

Cheers

Tony

Posted August 13, 2004 · August 13, 2004

:lol: Hi usb-dude,

As markandlynn said the shortage of members only caches was one of the reasons.

This series is Joan's baby and she wanted to give something back to those who help fund the site through their membership fees.

In our 11 months as cachers we have only seen 1 other MO cache and decided to address the balance with this latest series.

At some point in the future we will release the caches to all whether members or not.

We hope you understand our way of thinking and thanks for asking the question in the first place.

Posted August 14, 2004 · August 14, 2004

usb_dude I belive is one of our younger members and even if he/she can afford the $3 a month may not have the means to transfer the money independently

I can't pay for it - I've already tried. Of course, I do have $3 a month, and would like to be a premium member, but I have no way of paying.

Thanks Cave Troll & Joan for explianing why, and to everyone else for your answers! :rolleyes: :unsure:

Posted August 14, 2004 · August 14, 2004

GC.com does accept cheques but it is known to be dodgy and takes *ages*.

MarcB

Posted August 14, 2004 · August 14, 2004

Why do all of Cave Troll and Joan's Scrabble Challenges say:

Sorry, the owner of this listing has made it viewable to subscribers only. Visit the premium member page to find out how to upgrade your account to a premium member.

I'd like to do it but I can't afford to be a premium member.

Why is it only for those?

Short answer: They wanted to.

Longer answer: They wanted to, and probably have some reasoning behind it, whatever it is its their choice to do so. It may seem counter to restrict those who could visit, but is allowed.

(Yes I read the reason, but this isn't about how stupid or not that reason is :unsure: )

Posted August 14, 2004 · August 14, 2004

(Yes I read the reason, but this isn't about how stupid or not that reason is )

So you think the reason is stupid or at least thats my interpretation of what you are trying to say.

Fair enough you are entitled to your opinion.

However remember it is your opinion and in this context probably didn't need expressing.

What I'm thinking certainly does not need expressing here.

:rolleyes:

Posted August 15, 2004 · August 15, 2004

GC.com does accept cheques but it is known to be dodgy and takes *ages*.

2d worth: I sent GS (by airsnailmail) a draft in USD, which my bank were happy to provide for a small fee. My membership became active about ten days later.

Nothing dodgy about it, that I could see.

OT but relevant, I thought...

Posted August 15, 2004 · August 15, 2004

However remember it is your opinion and in this context probably didn't need expressing.

Why not? He is entitled to his opinion and is entitled to express it.

I have to say that making the caches MO just because there aren't any MO caches already does seem rather a strange reason to me too.

Am I allowed to say that? :rolleyes:

Posted August 15, 2004 · August 15, 2004

I have just placed my new series in Skipton (all accessable), but I have placed a bonus cache (for members only). 5 caches for everyone, 1 extra for members.

As members we do not get a great deal, so I thought here is the bonus.

After watching recent forums, whereby the topic was raised, and no one objected, I therefore thought I would be great for members to be allowed a FTF.

I shall of course be releasing the cache in a couple of months.

Only 13,

Just to put this in perspective there are currently 13 members only caches

I dont think thats going to hold someone up caching.

I agree with Cave Troll & Joan

she wanted to give something back to those who help fund the site through their membership fees.

One other nice feature you also get for being a member, is that when you create a members only cache, you get a log of who is looking at your cache !

Posted August 15, 2004 · August 15, 2004

One other nice feature you also get for being a member, is that when you create a members only cache, you get a log of who is looking at your cache !

I have just seen this feature for the first time we are allready betting who will get to our cache first, and of course immediately we get that FTF log we shall release the cache to everyone.

Posted August 15, 2004 · August 15, 2004

Thanks to USB Dude for raising this thread on the UK Forum. I have been quietly following it to see where it lead.

I did not know until I was preparing the Scrabble Series that "Members Only Caches" were even possible until I read with interest a previous thread on this forum. Most if not all the comments were of a positive nature, so I decided to make the series available to "Members Only" for the initial launch fully intending to open it to non-paying members after a period of a couple of months.

It seems that a few cachers have been upset by my decision or at least that is the impression I am getting from the above thread.

The way I see it is that paid up members of any club, society or organization are entitled to certain privilages that are not available to non-paying members. This may sound a little harsh, but at the end of the day would this UK Forum or Geocaching.com be here if not for the support of the paid-up members who have supported both this sport and the website that enables us all to go out caching as and when we want to.

This is our first and only Members Only cache, ok so it is a series which means that 7 caches are unavailable at the present time to anyone who is not a paid-up member of Geocaching.com we have apart from this series a further 11 caches which are open to all who wish to search for them. I don't feel this is unreasonable .

We can only apologise to the few who feel hard done to by our or should I say my decision to make the Scrabble Series available to Members only. We especially feel sorry for the young member USB Dude who who started off this thread initially, though we do feel that he would have had problems completing the series due to the distance involved between the initial and final caches in the series. He shouldn't feel too badly done to by not being able to do this series at this time, there are lots of caches in the local areas for him to find before having to travel such distances. He and all non-members will be able to do the series once it goes out to all members in the future. Had he emailed us directly as he had done previously I would have explained my reasons to him personally though I did explain why I had made the decision I had in the article I wrote for the UK Geocachingtoday magazine.

Joan

Posted August 15, 2004 · August 15, 2004

Irrespective of the ethics of MO caches , there could be justifiction ....as in ...the Duke

The owner has replaced this 2ce ...and has now removed clues to eliminate "lurkers"from trashing it ..... if it were mine I would have made it MO :anibad:

Posted August 15, 2004 · August 15, 2004

Just thought I'd add my 2 pence worth...

...I did not initially become a premium member at first, as I was unsure of what this whole jaunt was about. Having done a few, a found a local MO cache on the site (now archived). I was intrigued to find out what it was, and so paid up...

...I was glad to hear that people are discussing making some caches MO, as I have actually yet to find one! I am happy to pay up the small amount every month if it keeps things going, but the idea of having some which are for those who do pay seems perfectly reasonable to me. Glad to see that you have done so, Joan. I fully support it.

I also like the idea of making some initially members-only and then changing them after a set time, or after set number of finds.

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I have been a paid up subcriber for 3 years next month, It says I am a CHARTER MEMBER, IT ALWAYS HAS DONE. So whats the diff between me and premuim mems?

I would like to think that people who have used the services of GC.COM for a while would pay to support the site, this can only help to keep the hobby going, and after all the site owners have said " they have to eat."

My opinion

Nige

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I have been a paid up subcriber for 3 years next month, It says I am a CHARTER MEMBER, IT ALWAYS HAS DONE. So whats the diff between me and premuim mems?

You can only be a charter member if you paid from the first year it was offered. so as long as you keep it up you will stay a charter member.

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I can't pay for it - I've already tried. Of course, I do have $3 a month, and would like to be a premium member, but I have no way of paying.

Thanks Cave Troll & Joan for explianing why, and to everyone else for your answers!

I might be wrong but I think you can pay by PayPal and you can add credit to PayPal by cheque?

Give it a try - it is worth it for the GPX files alone!

The Hokesters...

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I have been a paid up subcriber for 3 years next month, It says I am a CHARTER MEMBER, IT ALWAYS HAS DONE. So whats the diff between me and premuim mems?

You can only be a charter member if you paid from the first year it was offered. so as long as you keep it up you will stay a charter member.

I think I'm right in saying there arn't any extra benefits to this though.

MarcB

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

A years subscription is $30, slightly cheeper than paying monthly, works out about £16. I sent mine in $notes with no problem as I had no other way of paying it. Subscription went through no problem.

Dave

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

Usb-dude is under 16 so he would need his parents help in making the payment.

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I could easily change £16 into Dollar notes and post it to the US through recorded deliv. Would this be safe/good idea?

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I could easily change £16 into Dollar notes and post it to the US through recorded deliv. Would this be safe/good idea?

I think once the banks take their little slice out of it you are looking at nearer to £17 rather than £16.

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

Stictly speaking USB_dude, sending actual currency through the mail is illegal (I believe). It certainly is in the USA and your letter would have to travel through there. Also, if you do decide to risk this, its a good idea to fold the cash inside a couple of sheets of paper so as not to let it be visible by holding the mail up to the light etc.

In short, not really good practice I'm afraid.

All the best

Martin & Lynn

Edited August 16, 2004 by Mady

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I have deliberated for some time on whether to add my opinion on the subject of 'Members only' caches not wishing to create any ill feeling etc. We all have our opinions in this regard and, of course, I do respect them.

When Lynn and I first took up this wonderful 'outdoor pursuit' of geocaching, one of the many things we loved about it was its inherrent altruistic spirit. Perhaps, when Jeremy Irish reportedly promised at the outset that his website and service would always be free, he gave the sport its very first injection of this very altruism.

My worry is that, despite the best intentions, the 'members only' syndrome might initiate a clique of elitism which we think is regrettable in any recreational activity and especially one as relaxed as this one.

I can also foresee another problem. Suppose someone decides to place a cache on say 'Fabulous View Mountain'. If they are like us they will check first to make sure that there are no other caches already nearby. Then they scout out the place, contact the owners etc. and get permission. Finally, they proudly put their deluxe ammo box cache together replete with goodies and carefully put it in place. All that's left is the approval. 'Sorry' comes the reply. "It's too close to an existing cache." An awful lot of work has been expended for nothing. Because the pre-existing cache was 'Members Only', the coordinates didn't show up on your research. 'Ok', you might say, "Submit your cache for approval first." Well you still have to get the permission etc which can take a while and you have to be sure that the cache will not go online until you've had a chance to actually place it.

We feel that although the £16 is not a lot of money this is not necessarily the issue. It represents the thin end of the wedge which could drive this activity away from its currently 'friendly, all-comers' image toward a more 'tie and blazer required' affair. I am certain that this is not the intention of Cave Troll and Joan or Mark and Lynn or any others who have made caches 'members only'. I just feel that this is how it could end up.

Finally, no-one pays to send Deego their COTM stats and GeocacheUK doesn't attempt to elicit funds from anyone. They put their own time and effort into this activity in, dare I say it again, a true altruistic spirit.

All the best to everyone, and as I said, no offence intended to anyone.

Martin & Lynn

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

'Sorry' comes the reply. "It's too close to an existing cache." An awful lot of work has been expended for nothing.

I think the worst that would happen here is that another spot would have to be found close by. The ruling is that it can't be within 0.1 mile. In the series that we placed this weekend, 2 of the caches were very close together, yet still satisfied the distance rule.

In that situation, I think the owners or reviewers would disclose to co-ords of the nearby cache, so that you could make sure it wasn't too near.

We have the same issue with not knowing the final co-ords of a multi, and that seems to work ok.

The other thing is that it is possible to 'reserve' a spot temporarily before you place a cache. Anyone could have reserved the spot without you knowing. Again I think this seems to work ok at the moment.

I'm not aware of any problems in these 2 scenarios, but maybe anyone else has an example?

Tigger

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I forgot to add my 2 penneth regarding the membership fee. We currently use the pocket query function a lot, as do most of the other paperless cachers out there. This probably uses up quite a bit of the server processing, so I think it's only fair that those that drain the system more should pay a little towards it.

At the end of the day, the membership fees are what pays to keep the site going, and I don't thinks it's just a money-grabbing exercise.. It probably wouldn't be so good if it were not supported in this way.

T

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I belive that if you searched for the cache locaction it shows the members cache(and how far away it is) in the results list, but you cant look at the page for the details

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

>At the end of the day, the membership fees are what pays to keep the site going, and I don't thinks it's just a money-grabbing exercise.

>

I didn't really want to say this but I think wih endorsements for Magellan and Etrex plus sales of Geocaching paraphenalia across the globe, maybe bandwidth is not really a major concerm.

Martin (a cynical old .......)

Posted August 16, 2004 · August 16, 2004

I don't want to get dragged into the rights and wrongs of sponsorship here, but it's a fact that every organisation (even charities) require some sort of funding to provide a decent service to it's customers/members/stakeholders.

Whether this is done by charging a modest fee for service, a small amount of sponsorship, or hawking a few goodies, this funding is needed. Even if every person worked voluntarily, the infrastructure of a site like this does not come for free.

Some of us contribute funding via our membership fee, and some of us contribute by hiding the caches for others to find, and some of us do both. I think both of these types of contribution are and always will be valued, and I can't see the 'tie and blazer required' scenario happening.

Tigger

Posted August 17, 2004 · August 17, 2004

(Yes I read the reason, but this isn't about how stupid or not that reason is )

So you think the reason is stupid or at least thats my interpretation of what you are trying to say.

Fair enough you are entitled to your opinion.

However remember it is your opinion and in this context probably didn't need expressing.

What I'm thinking certainly does not need expressing here.

Since you ask, yes I do.

Thanks :lol:

Thats why I didn't express it. I didn't want to give someone the chance to reply saying 'but they explained it already as....' or anything like that. I also wanted to point out that I didn't care to discuss the merits of MOCs in general or this specific case. Perhaps, 'stupid or not' was a poor choice of words. But 'generally accepted' would open the door to rehash was everyone thinks, and 'I think' just invites a reply (even though its automatically assigned to every post).

Goes too far off topic?

Posted August 19, 2004 · August 19, 2004

Closing this topic because I don't want to start an argument.

Thanks for your answers.

Cave Troll & Joan - Why Premium Members Only?

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