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Should This Cache Be Allowed?


kayakanimal
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Please excuse me if this topic has been beat to death…

 

I know that virtual caches are kind of frowned upon as of late but…

 

I wanted to put a cache at the Orlando International airport. A physical cache CAN’T be put there because it is federal land. So why not allow a virtual?

 

I sent an email the local cache approver and he basically shot it down. On each level of the parking garage there are some neat (I guess the best word for them is a) sculptures. I thought that would make a great virtual.

 

What does everybody think of this? Should the one be allowed? I love being able to do caches in airports when traveling…like this one.

 

Thanks,

Kayakanimal

 

Also,

I tried to make this a poll to vote on but when I clicked the “New Poll” button all it said was:

Sorry, an error occurred. If you are unsure on how to use a feature, or don't know why you got this error message, try looking through the help files for more information.

 

The error returned was:

 

You cannot start a poll

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I may not always agree with TPTB, but Ive come to respect their decisions. Especially around airports, government buildings and other high security areas since the 9-11 attacks.

 

Geocaching out in the woods looks fishy enough, but when people start searching around airports with small electronic devices, even if theres no physical cache there, it could potentially lead to further regulations on our sport.

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I may not always agree with TPTB, but Ive come to respect their decisions. Especially around airports, government buildings and other high security areas since the 9-11 attacks.

 

Geocaching out in the woods looks fishy enough, but when people start searching around airports with small electronic devices, even if theres no physical cache there, it could potentially lead to further regulations on our sport.

That was not the reason it was not allowed.

Besides...doe that mean ANY cache around an area that might gain attention would be bad?

Example:

Town halls, power plants...ANY tall building etc.

I think not.

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That was not the reason it was not allowed.

Yes. But you don't tell us WHY it wasn't allowed and since we can't see the cache page we have to guess.

 

Possible guesses may include but are not limited to:

  • too close to federal property
  • maintainance issues
  • low WOW! factor
  • could be used as a stage in a multi
  • grandfathered caches are not a reason to allow new caches with particular issues

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I think one problem is that an owner needs to maintain their caches, *even if they're virtual*. If the cache is past security and you need a ticket, how would you be able to check up on the cache easily?

This cache is outside of security.

 

And...in this parking area, if you don't stay more than 30 minutes there is no charge.

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That was not the reason it was not allowed.

Yes. But you don't tell us WHY it wasn't allowed and since we can't see the cache page we have to guess.

 

Possible guesses may include but are not limited to:

  • too close to federal property
  • maintainance issues
  • low WOW! factor
  • could be used as a stage in a multi
  • grandfathered caches are not a reason to allow new caches with particular issues

1. It is ON federal property.

2. NO maintenance issues in a Virt.

3. I think (any many other people) these sculptures are cool.

4. If was a multi you would have to leave the airport (trying to stay away from that so travelers don't have that problem).

5. The reason I was told that this cache would not be allowed was because (this is NOT an exact quote) GC was going away from caches that do not have a log book.

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ok, there's relly two ideas operatign here:

 

1) you should get to place whatever you want.

 

2) gc.com should get to decide what they want to list.

 

these are not mutually exclusive, but when your cache does not fit with their guidelines, you should feel free to list it somewhere else that would like to list it. the everybody gets to be happy, and the alternate listing sites get some traffic.

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1. Not really a problem for a virt in an non secure area.

2. Not exactly true, but mostly. Even sculpture and historical markers can be moved or changed.

3. OK a valid point.

4. Another valid point.

5. Perhaps you should have quoted exactly; but in any case here is my take on where virts are going on gc.com.

You need to show the cacher/visitor something they wouldn't necessarily find on their own without you taking them there. Wow factor needs to be substantial.

Everyone driving into the parking decks will see these animals. I found many google links in one basic search.

If this is the reason your approver gave then they should have done better.

If you are paraphrasing then you have taken the rest of their explanition out of context.

 

My suggestion is to get permission (it can be done) from an airport hotel for a micro or even a TB Hotel cache on theor property. Use the sculptures as a clue to get the true coords to that cache. This way you accomplish your goal of showing off the cool sculptures, travelers/visitors do not need to leave the airport area, nor pay a parking fee.

Good Luck with your cache plans.

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bons - Whattya doin', auditioning? :lol: That was a good checklist.

 

If anyone wants examples of statues, monuments and signs that go missing, I can post some links to archived virtuals a bit later from home.

 

If anyone has ever hunted for a virtual cache where the object is no longer there, you may have a particularly strong opinion about why the vacation/maintainable distance and maintenance guidelines apply to all types of caches.

 

I've yet to see an airport that didn't have statues. Some of 'em are cool. A very, very few have made me say "wow." But I didn't need my GPS to find any of them. I followed the signs that said "AIRPORT."

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2. NO maintenance issues in a Virt.

Are you sure? I've heard of sculptures being moved from time to time. I've also heard of plaques being stolen/vandalized. Virtuals need maintenance just like real caches do. You need to make sure it's still there, that the area isn't closed off, etc.

You are correct. Maintenance would be no problem.

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1. Not really a problem for a virt in an non secure area.

2. Not exactly true, but mostly. Even sculpture and historical markers can be moved or changed.

3. OK a valid point.

4. Another valid point.

5. Perhaps you should have quoted exactly; but in any case here is my take on where virts are going on gc.com.

You need to show the cacher/visitor something they wouldn't necessarily find on their own without you taking them there. Wow factor needs to be substantial.

Everyone driving into the parking decks will see these animals. I found many google links in one basic search.

If this is the reason your approver gave then they should have done better.

If you are paraphrasing then you have taken the rest of their explanition out of context.

 

My suggestion is to get permission (it can be done) from an airport hotel for a micro or even a TB Hotel cache on theor property. Use the sculptures as a clue to get the true coords to that cache. This way you accomplish your goal of showing off the cool sculptures, travelers/visitors do not need to leave the airport area, nor pay a parking fee.

Good Luck with your cache plans.

Hotel is IN the airport. I asked about a micro...GM said sorry, no.

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Where traditionals are not allowed the normal anti virtual rules should be flat out waived.

 

The reason for this argument is based on a letter posted by TPTB in the thread on Federal Wild Life Refuges. If I recall Hydee wrote it. She didn't say what I just said, but I'll build on her take and say this is how it should play out in real terms.

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Last week I tried to take a picture in Minneapolis at the airport of a group of German exchange students we had been hosting and was quickly told photos are NOT ALLOWED!!! TSA/FAA regs were cited....fwiw

They are not in the security screening area. This cache would be outside in a parking garage. No security issues there. No pictures would be needed for the cache.

Just for info.

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Greetings Kayak, Just a note to let you know what happens when a Bug Hotel, (Cardiff Wales Airport Bug Hotel), placed 1 mile away from an International Airport gets moved by some person unknown. The cache box was removed from the site and placed alonside a security fence, the security gaurds found it and informed the Police. After phone calls and e-mails to the States by the Police I recieved an e-mail for me to contact the Police, this I done, after a long chat with them they told me that the box had been destroyed, it got very close to a full security allert. What would that have done to Geocaching???????? OK have Bug Hotels and cache sites near to airports, but please make sure that thay are safe from the light fingered folks, ( I was going to say worse), where they can be moved.

I hope you have luck.

GW1VRW (Colin King) S. Wales U.K.

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Just tho throw a little more wood on the fire.

 

Red and I planted a micro on a Historical Marker (Beaver Board) in Oregon - They are made of Redwood planks about 6" X 12" X 10' and six are stacked edgewise up and down with information routered into the planks. These planks are bolted to logs about 12 " diameter and 14 foot long. These signs must weight a couple tons. Anyway, we placed a micro, got all the information, went to town and as we came back through the area something like 6 hours later, the historical marker was gone, including the holes for the post.

 

Things get moved. Bottom line. You have to be willing to do the field check even for micros and virtuals.

 

I do not go to airports but it would seem to me this would be a place for virtuals just to prevent hassles from boxes and to give travelers a break when between planes. It might not be the toughest hunt you will ever go one but just something to break the monotony of the lay over.

 

logscaler.

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I do not go to airports but it would seem to me this would be a place for virtuals just to prevent hassles from boxes and to give travelers a break when between planes. It might not be the toughest hunt you will ever go one but just something to break the monotony of the lay over.

 

logscaler.

Thank you logscaler.

That is EXACTLY my point. Have fun on a layover. Cool!

Thanks,

Kayakanimal

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Last week I tried to take a picture in Minneapolis at the airport of a group of German exchange students we had been hosting and was quickly told photos are NOT ALLOWED!!!  TSA/FAA regs were cited....fwiw

They are not in the security screening area. This cache would be outside in a parking garage. No security issues there. No pictures would be needed for the cache.

Just for info.

Um, how do you get a GPS coordinate inside a parking garage? B)

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logscaler wrote:

Just tho throw a little more wood on the fire.

 

Red and I planted a micro on a Historical Marker (Beaver Board) in Oregon - They are made of Redwood planks about 6" X 12" X 10' and six are stacked edgewise up and down with information routered into the planks. These planks are bolted to logs about 12 " diameter and 14 foot long. These signs must weight a couple tons. Anyway, we placed a micro, got all the information, went to town and as we came back through the area something like 6 hours later, the historical marker was gone, including the holes for the post.

 

I would have loved to see your face after that, logscaler! B)

 

A similar thing happened to me back in my high school days. We used to paint this big rock that was right alongside a moderately busy highway. We weren't the only school that did it, and the rock changed colors at least once a month. Anyway, we were all geared up to paint it, arrived late at night, as was our custom, and it was GONE! This rock was the size of a Volkswagon Bus, and it was gone. We looked around for a minute (like it could really have rolled off) looked at each other and went home. I still don't know where it went. Perhaps an enthusiastic, and titanically strong highway litter crew took it away. :lol:

 

I've heard stories of whole buildings being moved down the block and so forth, multi-story buildings. So, anything that you think might conceivably be moved, check up on it!

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Last week I tried to take a picture in Minneapolis at the airport of a group of German exchange students we had been hosting and was quickly told photos are NOT ALLOWED!!!  TSA/FAA regs were cited....fwiw

They are not in the security screening area. This cache would be outside in a parking garage. No security issues there. No pictures would be needed for the cache.

Just for info.

You sure about that? Most parking garages at airports have video surveillance which is watched by some guard inside.

 

I can only imagine that if people were taking pictures of the sculptures you listed (if that was a requirement), it might look fishy to a guard and there could be some potential problems.

 

Just my two cents!

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I do not go to airports but it would seem to me this would be a place for virtuals just to prevent hassles from boxes and to give travelers a break when between planes. It might not be the toughest hunt you will ever go one but just something to break the monotony of the lay over.

 

logscaler.

But then it would need to be inside the security area. I mean, as long as it takes to get through airport security, I doubt people on a layover are going to go out and do a cache, and have to go back through security.........and then it's not easily accessibly for locals, or maintenance checks by the owner......

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I may not always agree with TPTB, but Ive come to respect their decisions. Especially around airports, government buildings and other high security areas since the 9-11 attacks.

 

Geocaching out in the woods looks fishy enough, but when people start searching around airports with small electronic devices, even if theres no physical cache there, it could potentially lead to further regulations on our sport.

I must have missed something, but would it look suspicius if a person approached a statue to look closer at it?

 

Wow.. In that case, shouldn't we just close all art gallerys also.. Every person that wants to look at art must be a terrorist?

 

Airports are the most boring place you can spend a few hours at, and if you can kill some time by going looking for a piece of art - isn't that great????

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That was not the reason it was not allowed.

Yes. But you don't tell us WHY it wasn't allowed and since we can't see the cache page we have to guess.

 

Possible guesses may include but are not limited to:


  •  
  • too close to federal property
     
  • maintainance issues
     
  • low WOW! factor
     
  • could be used as a stage in a multi
     
  • grandfathered caches are not a reason to allow new caches with particular issues
     

1. It is ON federal property.

2. NO maintenance issues in a Virt.

3. I think (any many other people) these sculptures are cool.

4. If was a multi you would have to leave the airport (trying to stay away from that so travelers don't have that problem).

5. The reason I was told that this cache would not be allowed was because (this is NOT an exact quote) GC was going away from caches that do not have a log book.

I am familiar with the location (and I'm quite sure the approver is as well) and kayakanimal is correct in all his assertions. However, the statues in question, although cute, clearly lack the WOW factor required of a virtual, IMHO. I agree that it would make a nice diversion during a layover, but it just doesn't cut it as a virtual. Just my opinion.

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Just tho throw a little more wood on the fire.

 

Red and I planted a micro on a Historical Marker (Beaver Board) in Oregon - They are made of Redwood planks about 6" X 12" X 10' and six are stacked edgewise up and down with information routered into the planks. These planks are bolted to logs about 12 " diameter and 14 foot long. These signs must weight a couple tons. Anyway, we placed a micro, got all the information, went to town and as we came back through the area something like 6 hours later, the historical marker was gone, including the holes for the post.

 

Things get moved. Bottom line. You have to be willing to do the field check even for micros and virtuals.

 

I do not go to airports but it would seem to me this would be a place for virtuals just to prevent hassles from boxes and to give travelers a break when between planes. It might not be the toughest hunt you will ever go one but just something to break the monotony of the lay over.

 

logscaler.

Here in Göteborg, Sweden, there is a micro cache that was hidden at a grave stone. This grave is placed very close to a highway, and no one really see that it is a single grave there. Not a church nearby or anything.

 

The next day is the stone removed. It turns out that the local museum are going to replace the stone, and they found apparently the film canister and they took it and placed it at the museum next to the old stone. A new film canister was placed next to the new stone, but suddenly the new stone disappeared a few days later, they moved it a couple of meters... But now the stone and cache are next to each other - on both locations. On next to a highway, and one inside a museum!!! B)

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Point taken IV Warrior.

 

But like I said, I do not fly and I have never ever been inside an airport let alone since the 9-11 event happened.

 

But I do understand that there is a secure area(s) at these locations. And as long as the virtual is outside of said area(s) and open to the general public at any time for logging a find and checking on the virtual, where is the problem at?

 

As for travelers on a layover having to exit the secure area and then get back through the checkpoint, that would be up to them to decide if the hunt was worth the effort and hassle or not. As long as the cache page STATED that the virtual is OUTSIDE the secure area and you will have to go through the security check to get back into the airport, then I would consider that fair warning.

 

But, if there is no WOW factor to these statues, why bother?

 

And as for those missing Beaver Boards, they where repaired and replaced something like 20 miles away in a wide spot at a lower elevation. Must make it better for the tourons to not have to dig through 15 feet of snow to find the signs.

 

logscaler.

Edited by logscaler
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I do travel all the time. Parking decks are not "secure" areas per se, but there are a ton of security cameras in there. They watch everything from trying to catch people who are looking to break into cars to suspicious activities that terrorist make. If you walk through the parking deck, look around an you will find the cameras. There are probably some that you are not meant to notice as well by design. In times of high terror alerts, the parking deck sections close to the terminals are often blocked off to keep large truck bombs a specific distance away from the terminal (remember Oklahoma City?).

 

The people at the airports have enough to worry about don't they?

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I think taking a photo could be a major issue whether it's in a high-security area or not if large groups of people are around. Just about any airport in a medium or large city would fit that description. I recently had a student working on an assignment who tried to take a photograph inside a local mall and security immediately stopped her. And Louisville, KY, isn't usually mentioned as a city high on the terrorists' target list.

Edited by Teach2Learn
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One last comment. I hope anyway.

 

It seems to me that there have been plenty enough valid reasons brought forth explaining why this cache is - or most caches like it even - not going to make it.

 

And as I do not travel via airports, I would have to bow to those who do for input on the validity of this type of cache. All my resons for allowing it where explained away very nicely and without hostility. Thanks for the information.

 

I guess this topic just shed a little more light on our lifestyle change since 9-11.

 

logscaler.

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The change is interesting and quite dramatic. I have seen two lockdowns in the security screening area. One was a drill, but one was real. It was someone who zipped out of the area when they were suppose to be searched but it was an older gentleman and he looked confused and harmless. Still, that was a sobering moment. The doors slammed shut and about 30 security guys were on him in seconds. It got very quiet in there quickly. This happened in Atlanta.

 

I carry odd items in my suitcase because of my work. My bags get searched in security all the time. I keep all of the TSA notices that are put in my bag from when they search it. I just went and counted them -- there are 12. I'm sure I will get another one next week when I travel again.

 

I think I'll laminate one and attach a travel bug to it! Wouldn't that be a hoot!

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The change is interesting and quite dramatic. I have seen two lockdowns in the security screening area. One was a drill, but one was real. It was someone who zipped out of the area when they were suppose to be searched but it was an older gentleman and he looked confused and harmless. Still, that was a sobering moment. The doors slammed shut and about 30 security guys were on him in seconds. It got very quiet in there quickly. This happened in Atlanta.

 

I carry odd items in my suitcase because of my work. My bags get searched in security all the time. I keep all of the TSA notices that are put in my bag from when they search it. I just went and counted them -- there are 12. I'm sure I will get another one next week when I travel again.

 

I think I'll laminate one and attach a travel bug to it! Wouldn't that be a hoot!

sounds like a plan to me. B)

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The statues at Orlando International are VERY cool. There is definitely a WOW factor.

 

But every visitor to the airport sees them anyway. No need for coords.

 

Interesting side topic. Why would anyone consider it unusual or suspicious to take pictures at an airport? Isn't taking pictures the primary thing tourists do? How could anyone actually travel and not have pictures to prove they were there?

 

Can we be THAT paranoid that we have to completely change the face of tourism?

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Anyone who quotes the activities of 9/11/01 for a reason to restrict the simplest activities (taking a picture with a statue outside of the airport building proper) is not actually thinking very hard at the time. Don't worry that's just my small opinion.

 

I took some *very* cool pictures of Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, Boston, and NYC from my plane window _during_ a recent flight. Thankfully, I guess the flight attendant's attitude was not the same as your's, mtn. People still take pictures at the airport of their loved ones leaving for extended periods of time. You are not allowed to capture images of the security checkpoints for good reason. The rest of the airport should be open to pictures of the experiences in our lives.

Edited by ju66l3r
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Anyone who quotes the activities of 9/11/01 for a reason to restrict the simplest activities (taking a picture with a statue outside of the airport building proper) is not actually thinking very hard at the time.  Don't worry that's just my small opinion.

 

I took some *very* cool pictures of Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, Boston, and NYC from my plane window _during_ a recent flight.  Thankfully, I guess the flight attendant's attitude was not the same as your's, mtn.  People still take pictures at the airport of their loved ones leaving for extended periods of time.  You are not allowed to capture images of the security checkpoints for good reason.  The rest of the airport should be open to pictures of the experiences in our lives.

See, the thing is, you have already passed through security at that point. There are no restrictions regarding taking pictures while in the air. I do it all the time. Here are two photos of NYC as I flew to Boston. As you can see, the WTC towers are not there. These photos were taken on 5-1-2002.

 

NYC-fromtheair.jpg

 

NYC-fromtheair2.jpg

 

Like I say, I fly a lot. The terrorist activities have not stopped my daily activities, but have indeed modified those activities.

 

But, going back to the guidelines, since almost every airport has statues, would they not be commonplace by definition? I have never had my question answered about how you get your GPS to lock in a parking garage either.

 

Thank you RK. I hope we never forget.

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Why would anyone consider it unusual or suspicious to take pictures at an airport?  Isn't taking pictures the primary thing tourists do?  How could anyone actually travel and not have pictures to prove they were there?

 

Can we be THAT paranoid that we have to completely change the face of tourism?

Unless you missed it there are geocachers who are so concerned about damage to the enviroment that they don't want people to step off the path lest they crush a butterfly and recreate a sound of thunder (Ray Bradbury).

 

I take a LOT of photos sometimes. A lot of these photos are abstract peices, looking at sculpture or industrial works from unusual angles. I could spend an hour on the underside of a bridge taking interesting photos and a long layover in an airport by myself is almost a guarantee that I'll be spending time discussion the legalities of my actions with someone before my next flight.

 

Are people that paranoid? You bet. And as a photographer I have to deal with that on a regular basis. My advantage is that I don't respond to this in the manner that is going to make the situation worse. I respond to it in a manner that causes everyone to wander away bored, namely I apologise, put the camera away, and get on with my life since I simply don't have the time to sit in a jailhouse in Alabama in an effort to defend rights the person I'm talking to doesn't think are particularly important.

 

If you want to sit in that jailhouse, I applaud you, but I pick my battles. This one isn't worth the fight to me,especially since the problem is almost always a particular individual who take his security a little too seriously. (usually in the same manner that some enviromentalists take our responsibilty to the enviroment to extremes.)

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Unless you missed it there are geocachers who are so concerned about damage to the enviroment that they don't want people to step off the path lest they crush a butterfly and recreate a sound of thunder (Ray Bradbury).

"A Sound of Thunder" is my favorite story in The Illustrated Man.

"So people fire me when my pictures move. They don't like it when violent things happen in my Illustrations. Each Illustration is a little story. If you watch them, in a few minutes they tell you a tale. In three hours of looking you could see eighteen or twenty stories acted right on my body, you could hear voices and think thoughts. It's all here, just waiting for you to look."

 

Good point in your post -- you do need to pick your battles.

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Am I missing something? There already is a virtual cache at the Orlando Int'l Airport. Does it need another?

Wings over Orlando

That cache is outside the airport. You need a car to get to it. A layover passenger couldn't get to it.

Somehow I can't envision having a virtual cache located in such proximity to the airport terminals that passengers with short layovers would be able to go out and find it. I wouldn't forsee any quality in the cache at that point, because it will just be about another lame statue at the airport. Heck, the closest cache to the terminals at LAX is over a mile away.

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Last week I tried to take a picture in Minneapolis at the airport of a group of German exchange students we had been hosting and was quickly told photos are NOT ALLOWED!!!  TSA/FAA regs were cited....fwiw

They are not in the security screening area. This cache would be outside in a parking garage. No security issues there. No pictures would be needed for the cache.

Just for info.

You sure about that? Most parking garages at airports have video surveillance which is watched by some guard inside.

 

I can only imagine that if people were taking pictures of the sculptures you listed (if that was a requirement), it might look fishy to a guard and there could be some potential problems.

 

Just my two cents!

I said no pictures would be required for this cache.

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I do not go to airports but it would seem to me this would be a place for virtuals just to prevent hassles from boxes and to give travelers a break when between planes. It might not be the toughest hunt you will ever go one but just something to break the monotony of the lay over.

 

logscaler.

But then it would need to be inside the security area. I mean, as long as it takes to get through airport security, I doubt people on a layover are going to go out and do a cache, and have to go back through security.........and then it's not easily accessibly for locals, or maintenance checks by the owner......

check the link I had above for the cache at the Atlanta airport. MANY travlers did it. I did!

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That was not the reason it was not allowed.

Yes. But you don't tell us WHY it wasn't allowed and since we can't see the cache page we have to guess.

 

Possible guesses may include but are not limited to:


  •  
     
  • too close to federal property
     
     
  • maintainance issues
     
     
  • low WOW! factor
     
     
  • could be used as a stage in a multi
     
     
  • grandfathered caches are not a reason to allow new caches with particular issues
     
     

1. It is ON federal property.

2. NO maintenance issues in a Virt.

3. I think (any many other people) these sculptures are cool.

4. If was a multi you would have to leave the airport (trying to stay away from that so travelers don't have that problem).

5. The reason I was told that this cache would not be allowed was because (this is NOT an exact quote) GC was going away from caches that do not have a log book.

I am familiar with the location (and I'm quite sure the approver is as well) and kayakanimal is correct in all his assertions. However, the statues in question, although cute, clearly lack the WOW factor required of a virtual, IMHO. I agree that it would make a nice diversion during a layover, but it just doesn't cut it as a virtual. Just my opinion.

which one of the 9 in that area are you talking about?

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Last week I tried to take a picture in Minneapolis at the airport of a group of German exchange students we had been hosting and was quickly told photos are NOT ALLOWED!!!  TSA/FAA regs were cited....fwiw

They are not in the security screening area. This cache would be outside in a parking garage. No security issues there. No pictures would be needed for the cache.

Just for info.

Um, how do you get a GPS coordinate inside a parking garage? :blink:

Sorry...that is going to be one of the "skills" for this cache. If I gave away what you needed to do here (if the cache ever got approved) it would give it away. This will not just be a "walk to these cords and see the whatever".

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I do not go to airports but it would seem to me this would be a place for virtuals just to prevent hassles from boxes and to give travelers a break when between planes. It might not be the toughest hunt you will ever go one but just something to break the monotony of the lay over.

 

logscaler.

But then it would need to be inside the security area. I mean, as long as it takes to get through airport security, I doubt people on a layover are going to go out and do a cache, and have to go back through security.........and then it's not easily accessibly for locals, or maintenance checks by the owner......

check the link I had above for the cache at the Atlanta airport. MANY travlers did it. I did!

I already stated that locals could get in and out in under 30 minutes with no charge. Easy to get in and out. I am near there frequently. EASY to check. MUCH easier than many other caches that I have found and own.

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