Got in Trouble!!

January 10, 2003

Took the Grandson and daughter geocaching today. We have only been caching for about a month (four finds) so we screw up a lot yet. We were hot on the trail of treasure and pulled off the road to park and follow the GPS. There were no fences, no signs that we were on private property and we were near a BLM recreational site (hiking, biking etc.)plus way out in the country. We had gotten out of the car and walked a bit before we discovered there might be a better place to start from and we were headed back to the car when this guy roared up in his vehicle blocking our exit. He stormed out of his vehicle and started in on us about being on his property and how we were destroying his investment and so on. We very calmly explained to him what we were doing and apologized for being on his land. He did finally calm down and move his vehicle so we could go on our way. About a minute down the road we discovered where we should have pulled off to hunt for the treasure.

He did have a legitmate complaint cause while the treasure is on BLM land our west coordinates put us on his land which is between the road and the BLM land and had we continued walking north on his property we would have entered BLM land and found the treasure. This was an honest mistake on our part, yet we feel that we have created a problem for future cachers in this area.

Any ideas how we can prevent this kind of thing from happening again?

January 10, 2003

It sounds like you handled it quite well. You may wish to send a note to the cache originator let him provide some parking coordinates.

By all means post your experience in the log when you post the cache.

Fair winds, Capn Skully

January 10, 2003

Post a note on the cache page about your experience and let others know that there is private (and guarded) property in the area. You may want to post the coordinates of the best place to park in the BLM land to encourage others to stay within the BLM boundaries, or encourage the cache owner to do so.

Keep on Caching!

- Kewaneh

38.2k · January 10, 2003

You can't always just follow the arrow. I realize in some areas it's hard to tell though. You see a dirt road in the area and you go for it.

"Paternalism is the greatist despotism" - Emmanual Kant

24.7k · January 10, 2003

Well now, if he won't let you off the property when you realize your mistake, that's kidnaping or a variation.

He was a jackass. Her in Idaho we get people who like to fence off access roads to protect their land. The road is BLM the land is theirs (until you get to the BLM behind.

You made an honest mistake. The guy didn't deserve an honest explanation. That you gave him one is a credit to yourself.

Wherever you go there you are.

1.6k · January 11, 2003

Was it a tilled field with a planted crop? ...a manicured lawn? How did he figure you were destroying his property? Was there any clue it was anything but wilderness?

You handled it about the best you could have, but the guy was a jerk and rarely can you reason with jerks.

I don't know about where you live, but around here you can't get in trouble for trespassing unless you know you're trespassing, i.e. you were told or warned, or you passed posted signs.

Just realize your mistake and move on. This guy and incident is nothing to worry about.

CR

January 11, 2003

Some people need to get a life and not spend all day hiding out waiting on an opportunity to get one up on other people. The man obviously has a chip on his shoulders. You will get better over time judging where to go so don't worry about that either. Have fun and chalk it up to experience.

________________________________________________________________________

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes.

January 11, 2003

MEAN PEOPLE SUCK.. If the guy doesn't want people on his land I guess he'd better get out the barbed wire, spot lights, and guard dogs. Clearly this guy had the IQ of a rock. You handled the situation very well. Just send a note to the cache owner.

Normaly if the cache is so close to private property, the cache owner should put in parking coordinates. I know they do that here in Washington.

2.6k · January 11, 2003

The matter is not clear at all. Questioning the land owners intelligence is unreasonable.

quote:
Originally posted by The_Brownies:
Clearly this guy had the IQ of a rock.

I'm not going to defend the land owner. His blocking the cachers retreat and his abusive verbal assault was unnecessary. However we, as cachers, must assume that all property is private and impassible. Where-as we must investigate to prove otherwise.

The land owner does not have to go through the expense of erecting signs and fences to prevent access to his land. All land management and wildlife management laws protect the land owners. It is the individuals responsibility to ensure they are not trespassing.

The land owner did not have to confront the cachers. He could have called the police and had them charged with a crime. However he chose to confront them to get his point across. Which it did. There-for resulting in this discussion. Hopefully we all learn to be more careful when searching for access to a cache.

I think this is an excellent reason to have a parking coordinates field on the cache submission page.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

1.4k · January 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
You made an honest mistake. The guy didn't deserve an honest explanation.

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
Was it a tilled field with a planted crop? ...a manicured lawn? How did he figure you

were destroying his property? Was there any clue it was anything but wilderness?

quote:
Originally posted by BrownMule:
The man obviously has a chip on his shoulders

quote:
Originally posted by The_Brownies:
If the guy doesn't want people on his land I guess he'd get out the barbed wire, spot lights, and guard dogs. Clearly this guy had the IQ of a rock.

These are all good examples of how not to be. That fact is of the matter is the land was owned by this man.

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
The matter is not clear at all. Questioning the land owners intelligence is unreasonable.

This is an example of how to be.

When you stray onto someone's property you apologize.

====================================

As always, the above statements are just MHO.

====================================

January 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
The matter is not clear at all.

It's quite clear, actually. The land owner's actions - to prevent someone from leaving - is criminal. Sometimes issues are black and white. This is such a case.

-----

Memory is a prism through which yesterday's light is passed.

January 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by chillas:

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
The matter is not clear at all.

It's quite clear, actually. The land owner's actions - to prevent someone from leaving - is criminal. Sometimes issues are black and white. This is such a case.

-----

_Memory is a prism through which yesterday's light is passed._

I'd respectfully suggest that this it's not at all clear the landowner was breaking the law by detaining the trespasser. Without consulting a lawyer, and without knowing what jurisdiction the trespass occurred in, it's probably tough to call, but in most places, it's ok for a landowner to detain someone they catch committing a crime. Do you really believe that if you catch someone breaking into your car in your driveway, you're obliged to let him leave and do nothing more than scold him as he runs away with your CD player?

Trespassing is a crime. The landowner detained someone breaking the law on his property. Seems reasonable to me. Certainly if I caught someone trespassing on my land (and most trespassers are doing something else - riding ATVs and trashing your property, or poaching, or running a meth lab, or going to/from a drug dead drop) I'd position my vehicle to prevent them leaving until I could assess the situation. Remember that from the landowners perspective, there's no legitimate reason why you would trespass across his land when access to the BLM area is just down the road, as EVERYONE knows - and therefore whatever you're up to, it's probably something bad. Furthermore, he's likely to be certain that when he confronts you, you're going to come up with some screwball excuse he doesn't understand to avoid divulging where your meth lab is actually located, so he's disinclined from the start to believe anything you say.

Has it occurred to anyone that there might be history (e.g. repeated vandalism) that have made this property owner very sensitive to trespass issues? That perhaps there are HAZARDS on this private property and the landowner is worried about someone hurting themselves (and his resulting legal liability?

Let me try to make the point a little more forcibly - There's no particular reason why a landowner who catches you committing a crime (and trespassing is a crime) is obliged to be polite to you. And the landowner is probably within his rights to detain you until law enforcement personnel arrive and take you away. Furthermore, he's entirely within his rights to make sure you're charged with a crime, tried, and convicted, complete with a court determined penalty.

I'd suggest that, unpleasant as it was, in this particular incident, someone got off lightly. And the person who got off lightly wasn't the landowner.

2.6k · January 11, 2003

The specifics of this event are not clear. No one can assume that their local laws apply every where else.

Common laws and Frontier laws still apply in many places through out the United States. In the State of Washington, under common law, citizens are allowed to make a citizens arrest of someone committing a felony. However the citizen must know the elements that constitute a felony. A citizens arrest under these conditions would not be legal in Washington. However blocking a vehicle from moving would not constitute detention. The occupants of the vehicle could still leave on foot.

Common law or Frontier law may have allowed the land owner to shoot the trespassers. In Texas a resident is allowed to shoot someone attempting to steal their vehicle.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

January 11, 2003

If there was no indication of private property (posted signs) and there was reasoanbale expectation of public land in the area then the landowner would have found his claim unenforcable against these folks. IT IS NOT CORRECT TO ASSUME ALL LAND IS PRIVATE. That is the purpose of posting in NY and other states. I think that this whole landowner thing in thw west has gotten totally out of hand and needs to be resolved. Proper posting is one of the ways to resolve that.

January 11, 2003

Not everyone trespasses on purpose. Yes, in Washington state, the landowners are not required to post their property, but what are the laws in Colorado? Every state has their own laws, as we are so freqently reminded, there are some weird ones in Oregon? What if the landowner is required by law to post his property? I don't know because I live in Washington. On the same token, What if the landowner had assaulted the cacher. Would the criminal trespasser be found guilty or would the land owner been in trouble? Nope, I think the landowner should have written down the license plate number and contacted the authorities, or simply called the police and had them deal with the person. It's when we try and take things into our own hands that the problems begin.

Just look at the criminal justice system. Who is it geared more towards. The victum or the convict? Seems to me the convict has more rights than I do. If you do not agree then look at the case of our U.S.traitor John Walker Lind. I served this country for 8 long years, and I proud to be a veteran. I would have given my life for this country, yet this guy gets off with a slap on the wrist. I'm not so sure the cacher got off lightly. The owner is lucky that the cacher was nice and did not pull out a gun a shoot the landowner. In Seattle I think they call this ROAD RAGE. One guy shoots at a car full of teens because the teens cut them off.

Again, the owner of the cache should have placed parking coordinates. But as a reminder, before you go after a cache, do a little research, and when in doubt, do not go after the cache.

January 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The_Brownies:
Not everyone trespasses on purpose. Yes, in Washington state, the landowners are not required to post their property, but what are the laws in Colorado?

I don't know about Colorado. In WA only 'unimproved' property must be posted. My reading of the code is that even a field that has been mowed would be considered 'improved', as well as forest land that had been managed, but a real lawyer might disagree.

quote:
On the same token, What if the landowner had assaulted the cacher. Would the criminal trespasser be found guilty or would the land owner been in trouble?

from the Revised Code of Washington:

quote:
RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force -- When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

I'd interpret this as saying you have the right to detain (by force if needed) trespassers long enough to determine why they were trespassing and what they were up to.

January 11, 2003

It sounds to me like you handled the situation great. My only recommendation would be to have the cache owner put a little blurb about avoiding the private land in the cache description.

As for the argument about legalities, I wouldn't even try and figure that out without the help of a couple local lawyers. When I was in the military, I once worked with a guy who had to take a fair bit of time off to handle the legal problems that arose as the result of a fight that erupted over a similar type incident. He was fishing a stream somewhere in the Idaho Panhandle/Eastern Washington area (I can't remember exactly where now as it was a few years back). A confrontation broke out resulting in injuries to both parties. The result of the legal proceedings was that the land owner didn't have the right to use force to protect property, and ended up being charged with assault, and loosing the civil proceedings which cost him a fair amount of money. (I of course only heard the workmates story, so I couldn't say for sure what the facts were) I'm sure though that the laws vary greatly depending on where you are and other circumstances. Personally, I've found that you can almost always avoid serious confrontations with a little common sense, which is what it appears to me you used.

Have a great day

Jeff

2.6k · January 11, 2003

I've generally found landowners to be civil if I've strayed onto their property. If it's not posted I don't have a problem going onto unmarked roads. Generally a polite attitude and an "aww shucks I must be lost look" get me out of any situation I've encountered.

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

January 11, 2003

Leatherman you are absolutly right when you state that it is illegal for a person to trespass and the land owner did have every right to come uncorked at us. In Colorado, you fence out cows, fence in pigs but a land owner does NOT have to post his private property.

Our incident was a good lesson for all geocachers everywhere to be aware of where they are. Just becasue we could see people on the trails across from us was no excuse for "assuming" that we were on public lands. I know we learned a valuable lesson from this and will figure out in the future how to be more careful of where we are. Had we known the area better we would have known where to park as the clue was very obivious once we were in the right place.

January 11, 2003

Knowing exactly where you are can be quite tough when it comes to public lands, even when you're carrying the most accurate GPS unit on the market. In the western states especially, it can be pretty difficult knowing where you are as far as National Park, National Forest, National Recreation area, BLM, or private land. A lot of the area is a very patch work division with public right of ways being even more confused. You'd be surprised at how often public roads and trails are at least in part across private land, and in many areas it would be impossible to traverse the area while remaining solely on public land. Being an avid hiker, I try to get good maps, but the problem is they tend to be out of date or completely unavailable when it comes to defining political boundaries. When I recently asked for boundary maps for the Escalante NP area, the rangers response was that "we're still trying to figure out for sure just where and what they are". You just have to try your best, and if and when a mistake is made use some common sense. Personally I've never encountered a land owner that was anything but civil. I have however come across many a person in the backcountry who was drunk, destructive, or just plain poorly behaved, so it's easy to understand why so many private land owners are opposed to trails in their back yard so to speak.

For what it's worth

Jeff

January 11, 2003

Was there a fence or No Tresspassing signs at reasonable distances along the road? If not, I see it as public land. Further, ''stepping on my soap box'', I see ALL land as public land. God didn't deed it to individuals or families. If someone purchases the right to hoard a parcel of the earth to themselves from the collective public, they must fence it off or otherwise make it clear by signs that its their own piece of earth, as long as they pay their taxes, and nobody else dare set foot on it. Of course, the collective public bullied some others off of it first. ''stepping off of soap box''

Steve Bukosky N9BGH

Waukesha Wisconsin

January 12, 2003

Here is Colorado's Q & A on BLM land.....

Bureau of Land Management-Colorado

Here's a short clip from this site.

Q. What are the right of the public to cross private lands to access public land?

The public may cross private lands to access public lands only when a public road or right-of-way (easement) for public access exists across the private lands. In the absence of such a right-of-way, the public has no right to cross private lands without first obtaining permission from the landowner. The landowner is under no obligation to grant such permission.

Q. What are the State of Colorado's trespass laws?

According to Colorado State Law, landowner permission is required prior to entering or crossing private property, except while traveling on public roadways. Two sections of the Colorado Revised Statutes (CRS) apply to trespassing:

1) CRS 18-4-504 relates to "Third Degree Trespass", which constitutes either a petty offense, misdemeanor, or felony depending upon the classification of the property involved, and the circumstances of the trespass. This statute requires a Court Appearance. Upon conviction, fines can range from $50 to $750 and can include a sentence in county jail. (private property also does not necessarily have to be posted in order for trespass laws to be enforced)

2) CRS 33-6-116 relates to trespass while engages in the act of hunting. The penalty for violating this statue is a fine of $137 and possible jail time. In addition, 20 hunting license "Points" are assessed (when 20 or more "Points" are accumulated during a 5 year period, the state Wildlife Commission may suspend your hunting and fishing privileges for up to 5 years). Some other pertinent State Laws:

CRS 33-6-125 forbids loaded firearms in motor vehicles. Penalty is $68 fine plus 15 points.

CRS 33-6-123 forbids hunting while under the influence of alcohol or controlled substances. Penalty is a Court Summons and 20 points.

CRS 33-6-119 (2) regards waste of edible portions of wildlife. For big game, the penalty is a $411 fine and 15 points.

CRS 33-6-126 forbids shooting from, or releasing an arrow from or across a public road. Fine is $68 and 5 points.

I was busted for trespassing in Colorado when I was 16 years old. It was a misdemeaner with a $60 fine and a court appearance. By the way.......if you're gonna go cruising on West Colfax, don't pull over into a parking lot to talk to anyone.

Children are natural mimics who act like their parents despite every effort to teach them good manners.

January 12, 2003

I am a land owner , but I do let people pass through/hunt/fish etc on my land.....There are so many possiblities why he was mad... Repeat vandalism, he may be hiding something on his land and doesn't want to draw attension to it by put up signs etc etc ..

I personally think you did the right thing..As a land owner when I do see people on the 14 acres i own, I like to approach them, just as a friendly guessture to meet the people using my land.....If they come there offen , do they hunt , hike what there up too.... Who knows someone could have decided that his land was a great spot to put some funny plants, and the officals may have busted him for it, being on his land..... Who knows , but good job.....

See you in the woods!

Natureboy1376

January 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by chillas:
Originally posted by leatherman:
The matter is not clear at all.

It's quite clear, actually. The land owner's actions - to prevent someone from leaving - is criminal. Sometimes issues are black and white. This is such a case.

Ah but blocking the vehicle is not the same as taking someone in hand! The land owner had every right to block the car until the most expensive tow truck could arrive to remove the vehicle "abandoned" on his property.

Bottom line is everyone who disagrees with us is not a jerk. Ok, maybe the guy didn't do a great job but he apparently settled down once it was calmly explained. All us who have walked through the woods only to find an old refrigerator and wondered how that got there - It is usually someone trespassing and dumping!

Get over it. The Cacher handled it well.

Of course this is just IMHO.

How come I was never lost BEFORE I got a GPS?

January 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
_The matter is not clear at all. Questioning the land owners intelligence is unreasonable._

quote:
Originally posted by The_Brownies:
Clearly this guy had the IQ of a rock.

I'm not going to defend the land owner. His blocking the cachers retreat and his abusive verbal assault was unnecessary. However we, as cachers, must assume that all property is private and impassible. Where-as we must investigate to prove otherwise.

The land owner does not have to go through the expense of erecting signs and fences to prevent access to his land. All land management and wildlife management laws protect the land owners. It is the individuals responsibility to ensure they are not trespassing.

The land owner did not have to confront the cachers. He could have called the police and had them charged with a crime. However he chose to confront them to get his point across. Which it did. There-for resulting in this discussion. Hopefully we all learn to be more careful when searching for access to a cache.

_ I think this is an excellent reason to have a parking coordinates field on the cache submission page._

http://home1.gte.net/res1ewfe/images/geomark8.gif

_If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do._

http://www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/articles/95articles/Hunt-full.html

I'm not a lawyer, but I do not think that is is a 'crime' to walk on a persons private property unless it is posted 'No Tresspassing'. Even then, if you are not causing any damage or committing some other crime (peeping tom), the owner would have a hard time getting law enforcment to do any arresting. Of course, land owners are protected, but from what? Somebody harmlessly treading on the ground? We worry about the responsibilities of Geocachers, but we can only do so much. It would have helped to have parking coords posted, but who can think of everything?

As far as the alleged land owner's intelligence, who knows? But generally, we infer these kinds of things by observing their behavior. Acts like an idiot, talks like an idiot... make your own conclusions.

Many kudos to the smart cacher that defused the situation by being calm and reassuring to the supposed land owner in this situation. He did just exactly the right thing.

Keep on caching,

Bluespreacher

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

January 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Geo Troll:

quote:
Originally posted by chillas:
Originally posted by leatherman:
The matter is not clear at all.

It's quite clear, actually. The land owner's actions - to prevent someone from leaving - is criminal. Sometimes issues are black and white. This is such a case.

Bottom line is everyone who disagrees with us is not a jerk. Ok, maybe the guy didn't do a great job but he apparently settled down once it was calmly explained. All us who have walked through the woods only to find an old refrigerator and wondered how that got there - It is usually someone trespassing and dumping!

Get over it. The Cacher handled it well.

Of course this is just IMHO.

How come I was never lost BEFORE I got a GPS?

The guy is a jerk. OK, I don't know about 'is'. Let's just say 'was'. It's not that he disagreed. Heck, he didn't even give our fellow cacher the opportunity to state his case. What's wrong with saying, 'Hey! Did you know you're on private property?' Any Geocacher would have responded by apologizing and leaving as soon as possible. The guy was a jerk, he should apologize. But Jerks don't.

Keep on caching,

Bluespreacher

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

January 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sbukosky:
''stepping on my soap box'', I see ALL land as public land. God didn't deed it to individuals or families. If someone purchases the right to hoard a parcel of the earth to themselves from the collective public, they must fence it off or otherwise make it clear by signs that its their own piece of earth...

Sbukosky, you must know this excellent song from the Five Man Electrical Band in 1971:

quote:
...And the sign said anybody caught trespassin' would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and-a yelled at the house, "Hey! What gives you the right?"

"To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in"

"If God was here he'd tell you to your face, Man, you're some kinda sinner"

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign

Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind

Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

January 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hoovman:

quote:
Originally posted by sbukosky:
''stepping on my soap box'', I see ALL land as public land. God didn't deed it to individuals or families. If someone purchases the right to hoard a parcel of the earth to themselves from the collective public, they must fence it off or otherwise make it clear by signs that its their own piece of earth...

Sbukosky, you must know this excellent song from the Five Man Electrical Band in 1971:

quote:
...And the sign said anybody caught trespassin' would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and-a yelled at the house, "Hey! What gives you the right?"

"To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in"

"If God was here he'd tell you to your face, Man, you're some kinda sinner"

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign

Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind

Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

http://www.mi-geocaching.org/

Will all of you who feel that my property should not be posted 'No Trespassing' because ALL land is public land please come over this weekend and repair the damage done by trespassers who have been tearing through my woods on ATV's and dirt bikes, and if you like, you can repair the fence I put up to keep them out - the one they cut down? I'm just guessing that you're probably not going to want to replace all the 'no trespassing' signs they've repeatedly torn down, causing me no end of worry about legal liability when one of these ATV or dirt bike bozos gets thrown off their !@$*#$%@$% #%^% )(*#%##$%*&%$#** machine and breaks his neck and decides that it's my fault he's a paraplegic.

I'll start listening to the "the public has the right to use your land" arguments right about the time I start hearing "the public has a responsibility to repair the damage they cause on your land" arguments, along with the 'if the public injures themselves when on your land, it's their problem, you have no legal liability at all' arguments.

January 15, 2003

Thank you for posting the landowner's side of the argument. I read the "Stella Awards", a publication on frivolous lawsuits founded by Randy Cassingham. People will sue over anything, even when it makes them look like morons themselves.

Too bad there isn't some way to post a webcam at the point where they are breaking through the fence. Get some good mug shots of the creeps, and see if local law enforcement knows them.

If I lived near you, I'd help you mend your fence.

On the other hand, that sort of proves the point. The person who got yelled at wasn't the kind of person to come and tear up fences and destroy foliage. He was a reasonable person who just accidentally went the wrong way.

Your posting shows one possible reason for the landowner to get his knickers in a twist, but I honestly don't think the original poster was a vandal. Treating him like one seems a little over the top.

Shannah

January 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team StitchesOnQuilts:

On the other hand, that sort of proves the point. The person who got yelled at wasn't the kind of person to come and tear up fences and destroy foliage. He was a reasonable person who just accidentally went the wrong way.

Your posting shows one possible reason for the landowner to get his knickers in a twist, but I honestly don't think the original poster was a vandal. Treating him like one seems a little over the top.

Shannah

There are lots of reasons why the landowner might view someone who just walks onto the property as ripping him off. Suppose he sells hunting rights to people, and thought they were poaching? Suppose he'd had people wandering through and harvesting stuff (one of the common trespasses in the PNW where I live is people hunting for mushrooms). Maybe he'd spotted someone poaching and also spotted a similar vehicle to the one he blocked in. Maybe someone has been trapping on his land and he thought the trespasser was checking the trap line. Maybe someone dumped a trash on his land and a similar vehicle was spotted nearby. I could go on like this for hours.

The point is there are LOTS of excellent reasons why the landowner might have been very upset, and it's impossible to know if he had a real reason or he was just in a bad mood.

But calling the landowner a jerk just because he defended his property rights is just way out of line. There are just too many legitimate reasons for the landowner to be plenty angry for that.

January 20, 2003

Hey while everyone debates the heck out of who is more right, I would like to know how old the grandkids were and are they OK about the situation (ie. will they still go out with you or are they to scared now?).

It is a shame that they had to witness someone seemingly behaving at an extreme degree without obvious cause (from you narration it was his/her first reaction toward you) but I think you showed your grandkids the PROPER adult way of handling the situation.

Kudos to you for being a good example in a obviously less than good situation. I believe you showed what a true Geocacher is, and that is "Someone who has and shows respect of/to the enviroment and people around them".

GPSr's...A step in the right direction!

January 20, 2003

You asked how the Grandson responded to us getting yelled at by the landowner. Ha, we should all take the Grandson's approach to life. His only comment after the guy left was, "not a nice man" and that was the end of it for him. Course at 2 and a half he has no worries about the reality of life!! We have been treasure hunting every weekend since and think the thought of Dinasaurs getting him at the "Dino's Dig" site worried him more than an angry human.

January 20, 2003

I don't know what state you are in. We don't have many BLM lands here in the east (specifically massachusetts), but we do have very specific laws on trespassing. If the land is not legally posted, then anyone can enter it for any lawful purpose. "Legally posted" is "No Trespassing" signs every 50 ft and the owner's name and address is on the sign. Otherwise, it is not legally posted, and you can walk on it.

Period. Every state is different

joeandrebel

January 22, 2003

In an area that's like that he should give you parking coordinants

January 22, 2003

I agree wholeheartedly with Kodak's4, I am a landowner and a geocacher, anyone who asks my permission to use/cross my land gets it along with a smile and a handshake. However if I catch someone trespassing, regardless of why, they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

How would you like it if I rode a snowmobile or ATV through your yard anytime I pleased? Maybe the family and I will stop by for a picnic...seems like a nice place...

January 23, 2003

JoeandRebel: I thought it was the same here in Fl.,but I found out the hard way that the land owner does not have to post his land. It's up to you to find out who owns the land and ask permission.

Cheers...TJF

4.7k · January 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by joeandrebel:
I don't know what state you are in. We don't have many BLM lands here in the east (specifically massachusetts), but we do have very specific laws on trespassing. If the land is not legally posted, then anyone can enter it for any lawful purpose. "Legally posted" is "No Trespassing" signs every 50 ft and the owner's name and address is on the sign. Otherwise, it is not legally posted, and you can walk on it.

Period. Every state is different

joeandrebel

according to my limited understanding of the law, in some states the posts even have to have actual POSTS (not trees) or they're not valid.

that notwithstanding, it's courteous and recommended to tread lightly on property owners. even unpleasant ones.

but if all else fails, you can always resort to a loud, cheerful "i'm lost!" i do, but then again, i was getting lost long before i ever discovered this sport.

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

January 23, 2003

i don't know about all the states but here in n.c. the land doesn't necessarily have to be posted to get you in trouble if you are trespassing. local laws prevail that state you have to have written permission to be on the land in some counties. i know of no place that says if it isn't posted you are welcome to trespass. as a land owner i would certainly give the benefit of the doubt to the described scenario, but understand the frustration of the landowner if he has been repeatedly run over by people trespassing on his property. agree that posting parking coords in this case would help.

harry

January 23, 2003

I don't know about cache hunting but where I'm from when hunting game it is considered legal to hunt unless it is posted, fenced, or under cultavation.And the landowner had to be a complete jackass to freak out on you when you had the grand kids with you! Shame on him.

Got in Trouble!!

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