What are the RULES for Event Caches?

July 17, 2003

I find no rules for event caches. Yet I just had one (GCGFMB) get the thumbs-down because it was not consistent with the "intent" of the event cache type.

The event cache was to gather together a number of cachers in the Austin area, including those with boats, so that we could do an expedition to a particular island in the middle of Lake Travis and on that island look for a geocache that has been previously hidden there. On the way there'd be much merry making, drinking of beer and spinning of yarns.

So somebody please show me the RULES where it says that an event cache cannot be called to gather cachers together to go geocaching. Or show me ANY rules concerning event caches.

I've had my run-ins with the seemingly capricious and arbitrary decisions of the approvers before, and each time I'm more baffled than the last.

-lowracer

4.8k · July 17, 2003

This sounds interesting. Can you post the cache page so we can see it? Note, that if it was archived that you will have to cut and paste the info here.

1.4k · July 17, 2003

This one's a no-brainer to me. Can you imagine what would happen if an event cache was created everytime two or more cachers wanted to go caching together? Isn't one smiley enough for finding the cache? Why do you want another smiley for finding the parking lot?

Hemlock - The alternative to purple frownies.

6.4k · July 17, 2003

Gee, I just got done making some plans to hunt a few caches this weekend with some friends. I had no IDEA I could post this as an event and log an extra find! WHOOPEE! I cache with other people 1-2 times a week at least, this should really help rack up those numbers. Thanks for the great idea.

Silly me, I thought all events were like the ones I've attended. Picnics, fun, games, caches, you know, an EVENT. I never knew a few friends hunting 1 cache together was also an event.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

4.8k · July 17, 2003

I haven't seen the cache page, but Hemlock makes sense. I could see an event with it's own gathering and then people going for a really hard or never found cache as part of it, but only as part of it. I think the event should stand on its own in some way. If all it really amounts to is a way to get more people to try to find one cache at the same time, then I have reservations. Regardless, it is an interesting question and I would like to see the proposed cache page!

Edit: I think Mopar's comment illustrates my point very well. If that is all it is, he is right.

6.4k · July 17, 2003

PS: Cute new avatar, Carleen!

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

July 17, 2003

OK so we had an event cache in Austin a few weeks back where we gathered on the shore of a lake, had a few beers, then we all piled into a party boat and found a cache or two on a different shore of the lake. No material difference, yet it was approved.

My point is, there are no written RULES for the posting of event caches, so how can one that is materially no different from any other event cache we've ever had be disallowed on the basis of the "intent" of the event cache type?

If you will disallow any event cache that has the finding of a geocache in it, then you've got to disallow any that I've ever been to, because they've all involved a group of cachers going off to find a cache.

What this particular cache amounted to was the need to pool our collective resources to rent (or borrow) a boat to get to this cache, and to have a lake party on the way. It wasn't simply trying to pad our cache find counts by finding the parking lot. Hell, if I wanted to I could increase my cache find count by 100 in the next twenty minutes and no one could prove that they weren't legit finds. So there's no value in a high cache count because it can be so easily faked. Cache count's not the point.

July 17, 2003

The intent of event was to gather area geocachers and go on a party lake excursion that would include geocaching on an island.

From my understanding, it is open to all, and not an exclusive event for just a few people. Lots of folks don't have easy access to boats anyway, and if someone wants to rent a large party barge and have some geocaching fun, what's the problem?

I've never been on an event cache, but my understanding is that some geocaching took place...both finding and hiding. What's the issue?

George

4.8k · July 17, 2003

quote:
PS: Cute new avatar, Carleen!

Oh Mopar, you just like the sexy look don't you? Not that there is anything wrong with that!

Thanks! I love it, so it will probably stay around for awhile unless I decide that I should scan some pages from the source that it was inspired by!

And geeze, at one point in law school, I died my hair black and almost looked like that. Wish I could go back....

July 17, 2003

I always thought there was a difference between getting a bunch of friends together for a geocaching related party, and inviting geocachers at large to get together for a geocaching related party. I thought the latter was called an event cache.

If someone knows the answer to the title of this topic, It would be helpful for me also.

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

1.2k · July 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by lowracer:
I find no rules for event caches. Yet I just had one (GCGFMB) get the thumbs-down because it was not consistent with the "intent" of the event cache type.

The event cache was to gather together a number of cachers in the Austin area, including those with boats, so that we could do an expedition to a particular island in the middle of Lake Travis and on that island look for a geocache that has been previously hidden there. On the way there'd be much merry making, drinking of beer and spinning of yarns.

So somebody please show me the RULES where it says that an event cache cannot be called to gather cachers together to go geocaching. Or show me ANY rules concerning event caches.

I've had my run-ins with the seemingly capricious and arbitrary decisions of the approvers before, and each time I'm more baffled than the last.

-lowracer

What baffles me is the instant negitive attitude that comes from this posting.

"I've had my run-ins with the seemingly capricious and arbitrary decisions of the approvers before, and each time I'm more baffled than the last."

That is not the way to get a good answer, if that is indeed what you are looking for. The old adage "You can catch more flys with honey then vinegar" comes to mind. If you need information as to why this was turned down, try asking the approver who turned you down for a more detailed answer. If you only want to Bi*ch then I suggest you post in the Compalint Thread. Either way your initial posting was Rude and Abusive. IMHO.

Michael

Lapaglia

Muga Muchu (forget yourself, focus)

6.4k · July 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:
Oh Mopar, you just like the sexy look don't you?

well DUH! Of course!

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

6.4k · July 17, 2003

Ya know, the exact same thing happened out my way (see this thread) but the reaction was the complete opposite. Must be the sun out there.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

4.8k · July 17, 2003

quote:
That is not the way to get a good answer, if that is indeed what you are looking for. The old adage "You can catch more flys with honey then vinegar" comes to mind. If you need information as to why this was turned down, try asking the approver who turned you down for a more detailed answer. If you only want to Bi*ch then I suggest you post in the Compalint Thread. Either way your initial posting was Rude and Abusive. IMHO.

I must say that the extra comment Lapaglia mentioned bothered me too. Approvers, as far as I know, have a great deal of knowledge and are also willing to discuss why caches are not approved. So why not contact that person and try to work it out? Sometimes people post unapproved caches in the forums for feedback, and this could be one where that is appropriate, I don't know (please post the cache page). Anyway, maybe you could make this into an event by generally getting people together for a picnic and fun games, and one of those games would be going for that cache with all who are willing?

July 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Lapaglia:
.... Either way your initial posting was Rude and Abusive. IMHO.

I humbly and respectfully have to disagree with you,

“I've had my run-ins with the seemingly capricious and arbitrary decisions of the approvers before, and each time I'm more baffled than the last.”

is not (IMHO) rude and abusive. Loracer has obviously developed a sense of frustration having what he believed to be a good cache idea turned down in what he believed may have been a “capricious and arbitrary” manner. I thought he expressed that opinion exceptionally well and seem prepared to admit that his idea was against the rules, if only someone would tell him what the rules are - which is what he asked in the beginning and no one has yet answered. Perfectly acceptable forum post to me. (The smilies are added so that I don’t appear to be the slightest bit rude or abusive - or to at least mask the fact.)

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

4.8k · July 17, 2003

quote:
well DUH! Of course!

You're in luck Mopar! Like I said, I will likely keep the avatar for some time!

quote:
Ya know, the exact same thing happened out my way (see this thread) but the reaction was the complete opposite. Must be the sun out there.

That was an interesting thread. Thanks!

July 17, 2003

Lowracer... depends...how many cachers are you looking to have at this event? The paddle event I went to last weekend consisted of about 40 cachers going for 7 freshly placed caches... these caches had been listed a couple of weeks ahead of time so they was not specifically for the event but recent enough that most had not found all. There was still lots of traffic on the river. Would you want 40 cachers to join you to go find this one unfound cache on the island? Isn't that a bit overkill for something your not even sure is there? How about going out and putting out a few caches in the area to assure there will be some caching going on that day... or so that those that don't like crowds could take an alternate route. Approval is one of those things that thought has to go into... so should the event. Or what the hell... just do what we do and get together as many cachers as you can from all corners of the nation and go to a park for the fun of it and get what caches are available

24.7k · July 17, 2003

"meet and greet" related to mostly geocachers atteneding is the only rule I've ever gleened out of the forums.

So you can't combine geocacing with a PTA meeting for example. Other than that I'm not sure why it was denied. Perhaps it was the primary purpose was the going after of another cache as was pointed out. After all that cache is an existing one and some cachers probably (I've not looked) have found it.

If it's never been found then that's different.

5.7k · July 17, 2003

Here are some examples of event caches that are similar to the above and basically only differ in the number of caches they planned.

Victoria Cache Machine

Yakima Cache Machine

Bremerton Cache Machine

Did the rules change for event caches?

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

1.4k · July 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by lowracer:
OK so we had an event cache in Austin a few weeks back where we gathered on the shore of a lake, had a few beers, then we all piled into a party boat and found a cache or two on a different shore of the lake. No material difference, yet it was approved.

Let's see.

Austin: Camping. Picnic. Beer. 400 Ammo Cans. Swimming. Partying. Finding a cache.

Yours: Beer. Finding a cache.

No difference?

quote:
What this particular cache amounted to was the need to pool our collective resources to rent (or borrow) a boat to get to this cache, and to have a lake party on the way.

If you spent as much energy posting in the forums to get people together to as you did to complain here, you'd have dozens of cachers lined up and ready to go.

Hemlock - The alternative to purple frownies.

July 17, 2003

Which event was that again? (full cache description of each event below)

GCGFMB - First Expedition to locate the Starnes Island boat-only cache

Someone please bring a boat, and indicate the number of passengers you can haul. This will be held Saturday Morning July 19th at 9AM.

GCGFMC - Second expedition to Starnes Island - Sunday Evening at 7PM

Someone please bring a boat, and indicate how many folks you can haul. The meeting place is at Mansfield Dam park, unless someone has a better more convenient launch point, then send me the coordinates!

GCGFMD - Third and final expedition to Starnes Island - Tuesday July 22 at 7PM

Somebody please bring a boat, and indicate how many folks you can carry in it. Thanks. Launching point is Mansfield Dam park, unless there is a more convenient location for boat - launching, let us know the coordinates and I'll update 'em.

3 events to find one cache?

1.2k · July 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

quote:
Originally posted by Lapaglia:
.... Either way your initial posting was Rude and Abusive. IMHO.

I humbly and respectfully have to disagree with you,

_“I've had my run-ins with the seemingly capricious and arbitrary decisions of the approvers before, and each time I'm more baffled than the last.” _

is not (IMHO) rude and abusive. Loracer has obviously developed a sense of frustration having what he believed to be a good cache idea turned down in what he believed may have been a “capricious and arbitrary” manner. I thought he expressed that opinion exceptionally well and seem prepared to admit that his idea was against the rules, if only someone would tell him what the rules are - which is what he asked in the beginning and no one has yet answered. Perfectly acceptable forum post to me. (The smilies are added so that I don’t appear to be the slightest bit rude or abusive - or to at least mask the fact.)

_I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me._

http://www.cslaw.ca/geol4.JPG

You are, as am I, entitled to our own opinions. I would suggest that given the responses to this thread mine may be closer than your's to the commonly held beliefs. In any case, since you do not agree with me I can hope that you did learn from me.

Michael

Lapaglia

Muga Muchu (forget yourself, focus)

3.5k · July 17, 2003

I think the geocaching.com forums and your local forums are the place to post gatherings that plan to go after difficult caches.

Here in Texas we're planning another trip to do the strenuous Four Cache Loop.

In this case the cache probably shouldn't be done solo, but you get the idea.

Pink isn't well - he stayed back at the hotel.

7.4k · July 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
Here are some examples of event caches that are similar to the above and basically only differ in the number of caches they planned.

<list of Cache Machine events>

Did the rules change for event caches?

While a massive cache hunt is the primary focus of a Cache Machine, it also always includes a geocacher dinner. At the dinner, geocachers from the "away team" (the group traveling to the Cache Machine target city) meet and mingle with the cachers from the "home team" (the local cachers). That, combined with the logistical effort required to plan and execute that massive cache hunt, makes it an "event" in my mind. Personally, I feel that the rejected events that led to the creation of this thread lack the "special" characteristics that make something an event in the Geocaching.com sense of the word.

July 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Lapaglia:
You are, as am I, entitled to our own opinions. I would suggest that given the responses to this thread mine may be closer than your's to the commonly held beliefs.

I'm not sure about that, but in any event I am never very concerned if my opinions are not aligned with the “popular opinion”. But having said that, I do not think the negative reaction to Lowracers comments indicated other posters to this thread thought them to be “rude and abusive” (they certainly haven’t expressed that). Decent geocachers just get a little testy when somebody expresses a negative impression of “the approvers”. And that is understandable - approvers are just volunteers who have an onerous and thankless job to do - and I have no problem with people wanting to appropriately defend them.

And of course, Lapaglia, I have learned more from you and this thread than my weekly meeting at the Mutual Admiration Society (more smilies to give the polite effect).

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

July 18, 2003

Seems that the general consensus is that these caches should not be approved. I'll stand by that ruling on GC.com, and drop the matter.

We (central texas geocachers group) have tried to coordinate this difficult Starnes Island cache hunt through our own online discussion group with little success. There were so many people suggesting many different days and times to make the trip, so I thought that picking three of the most often mentioned dates/times and making an event cache for each one would allow us to better organize ourselves and get everyone involved. A boater could sign up for each cache, announce their boat availability and its capacity, and others could sign up around that.

But now I have learned thanks to your comments and the approvers' comments that geocaching.com is not intended for the purpose of organizing cache events unless some other activity other than caching, drinking beer and boating is involved, so I've listed the events with a different cache listing service, where they were welcomed. So you see, it's not about falsely inflating our cache count, as we will get no credit on GC.com for the event.

Some of you have pointed out that I should contact the approver. I had already done that with one of the approvers - no response yet. The other is contributing to this thread.

Though my challenge to these caches is dropped, the question still remains, and no one has answered it: what are the RULES for event caches?

July 18, 2003

I agree the rules need to be defined. Why not use this thread to discuss and propose what the guidelines should be for event caches? I'm just yawning and waking up here on the east coast, so I'll think about it and weigh in later. I'll be interested to see what some of the rest of you think.

1.2k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by honeychile:
I agree the rules need to be defined. Why not use this thread to discuss and propose what the guidelines should be for event caches? I'm just yawning and waking up here on the east coast, so I'll think about it and weigh in later. I'll be interested to see what some of the rest of you think.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/52813_3100.gif

Now that seems like a very reasonable thing for us to do. I also propose the listing of the elements of event caches that have already been approved and held so we can develop some common themes and characteristics of what has gone before. That way we can have a starting base to work from.

Here in Southeast Texas most of our event caches have involved cachers from more than one area getting together. With Texas being just a little bit large, cachers coming from San Antonio, Dallas/Fort Worth and Houston to a central location is like some of the rest of you coming from three or four different states to an event...LOL. Usually these events have activities planned that have to do with finding caches, many (or all) of which are not listed on the web site but placed for the day as a team type competition or game for all who attend. Many event caches have resulted in the placement of a traditional, physical cache at the end with items inside donated by those individuals who attended the event cache. Most of the event caches I have attended did not result in finding caches previously placed and listed on the Geocaching web site, caches were specifically created for the event only. Many individuals did hunt other caches as they wished, but not as part of the event cache.

So, even though I don't really have a recomendation for a rule or guideline, at least this listing of our event cache characteristics will give you some idea of the flavor down here in Texas.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

3.1k · July 18, 2003

It was sort of discussed in this thread. I predicted there that the lack of clear guidelines (not rules) would come back and bite us in the forums again to the chagrin of the approvers, and lo, just three weeks later, here we are. In that thread, an event cache had to center on geocaching, plain and simple. Now we're seeing that you also have to eat something, plain and simple.

Sure, if you've been to many events, you know what they're supposed to entail. If you've been around the forums for years, you know what they're supposed to be like. The explanation given by Keystone Approver in the other Markwelled thread lays everything out very clearly; the easy-to-find, public description of an event cache does not. Maybe that's why the reaction to that rejection was the complete opposite.

It's not that I support more rules. It's that I hate to see the nasty turn these threads take, belittling someone for not being in the forums enough or too new to know the unwritten rules. And I hate the false but understandable perception that decisions like this are made arbitrarily

Well the mountain was so beautiful that this guy built a mall and a pizza shack

Yeah he built an ugly city because he wanted the mountain to love him back -- Dar Williams

21.9k · July 18, 2003

From the "Cache Types" Page:

quote:
Event Cache
Occasionally, local geocachers and geocaching organizations designate a time and location to meet and discuss geocaching. After the event the caches are archived.

I find this to be sufficient guidance to disallow the listing of events that are organized to hunt for a single cache, just like I found it sufficient to archive event caches that centered around ham radio rather than geocaching. The essence of an event cache is people getting together to meet one another and discuss geocaching at some central location... whether it's a picnic pavilion or a local tavern. While there may be a cache hunt (or several) as part of the festivities, an "event" that is totally centered on a single cache hunt really isn't a separate cache.

So, assume we take up the suggestion made by Lowracer and others to write up clearer guidelines on what will constitute an acceptable event cache. You'll get a nice long essay. Then all the people who think that there are too many rules governing geocaching can post in the forums and complain about the new regulations.

--------------------

Saving the day and approving all the caches... before bedtime!

3.1k · July 18, 2003

"Let's meet at this dam at this time so we can discuss geocaching. While we're there, we'll go get this nearby cache.",

If this event had been worded that way, would it have been approved? If not, what part of the Event Cache description would it not fit?

Well the mountain was so beautiful that this guy built a mall and a pizza shack

Yeah he built an ugly city because he wanted the mountain to love him back -- Dar Williams

2.3k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by lowracer:
I find no rules for event caches. Yet I just had one (GCGFMB) get the thumbs-down because it was not consistent with the "intent" of the event cache type.

The event cache was to gather together a number of cachers in the Austin area, including those with boats, so that we could do an expedition to a particular island in the middle of Lake Travis and on that island look for a geocache that has been previously hidden there. On the way there'd be much merry making, drinking of beer and spinning of yarns.

So somebody please show me the RULES where it says that an event cache cannot be called to gather cachers together to go geocaching. Or show me ANY rules concerning event caches.

I've had my run-ins with the seemingly capricious and arbitrary decisions of the approvers before, and each time I'm more baffled than the last.

-lowracer

Only one rule: Bring the beer.

Really, though, if it gets turned down, then just send out emails to the local cachers and just go do it together anyhow, then have everyone log their own find on that cache.

Don't know why they turned it down. Everyone in here has seen something a whole lot worse than that get approval....

[This message was edited by TEAM 360 on July 18, 2003 at 07:53 AM.]

4.8k · July 18, 2003

quote:
"Let's meet at this dam at this time so we can discuss geocaching. While we're there, we'll go get this nearby cache.",
If this event had been worded that way, would it have been approved? If not, what part of the Event Cache description would it not fit?

From Lowracer's description, it sounds like the event cache was being used as a way to organize a cache hunt among a group of people that had already been discussing the matter. The descriptions posted, didn't make it sound like an event. But I think it easily could have been made into a legitimate event(s) by having a group get together before each one. Or maybe have one get together and post the three cache hunt days on the same page. Basically, I think it should be more than just a way to organize a cache hunt.

July 18, 2003

I must say that generally, I'm on the "rules-should-be-kept-to-a-minimum" side of almost all of these types of discussions. However, I can see some areas that need at least a few more guidelines. This happens to be one of those areas, IMHO.

For example, I can see the need for a guideline as to how long before an event happens that it should be posted. You don't want to exclude geocachers from any event, simply because they didn't get enough advance notice of the event...

9.4k · July 18, 2003

The only rule I could find for event caches comes from the cache types page.

Event Cache

Occasionally, local geocachers and geocaching organizations designate a time and location to meet and discuss geocaching. After the event the caches are archived.

So, make an event to meet at the launch ramp and discuss geocaching. No mention of beer or snacks is needed to get approved, but might be useful information. Add that if someone can bring a boat, small groups will be able to head to the island to find a nearby cache. According to the limited guidelines, it should be approved.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

[This message was edited by Team GPSaxophone on July 18, 2003 at 08:54 AM.]

July 18, 2003

quote:
including those with boats, so that we could do an expedition to a particular island in the middle of Lake Travis...On the way there'd be much... drinking of beer

Maybe they denied it to save you a DUI. Hope to god you're appointing a designated driver for those boats.

And remember: the Designated Driver is the SOBER one, not the one who's had the least to drink!

Ode to a Pigeon: Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, You Lookin' at Me? YOU LOOKIN' AT ME?! (b. katt, 7/14/03)

5.7k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
Here are some examples of event caches that are similar to the above and basically only differ in the number of caches they planned.

<list of Cache Machine events>

Did the rules change for event caches?

While a massive cache hunt is the primary focus of a Cache Machine, it also always includes a geocacher dinner. At the dinner, geocachers from the "away team" (the group traveling to the Cache Machine target city) meet and mingle with the cachers from the "home team" (the local cachers). That, combined with the logistical effort required to plan and execute that massive cache hunt, makes it an "event" in my mind. Personally, I feel that the rejected events that led to the creation of this thread lack the "special" characteristics that make something an event in the Geocaching.com sense of the word.

Sounds to me that if worded more appropriately (focus on the get together, with the cache attempt being a bonus), this event cache probably would have been approved, yes? The get together part is what makes an event cache, period.

So, something along the lines of: Let's have a picnic at Mansfield Dam park and talk about geocaching. All are welcome. If someone has a boat, we could go try and find the Starnes Island boat-only cache, which is nearby the picnic area.

Note: I just noticed that Dinoprophet said almost the same thing a few posts up. That's what I get for posting before reading the entire thread.

I'm not taking sides here. I'm just interested in understanding the rules since I do plan event caches now and then.

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

20.7k · July 18, 2003

Let's see, on-topic remark first.

As has already been suggested, it is likely that through communication with the approver and a small amount of tweeking to the agenda of the event, this event will likely be approvable. I didn't see where this had been attempted. Did you bring this directly to the forums, rather than trying to work with whomever disallowed it?

Now my off-topic remarks:

Carleenp: I read a few of your remarks in some threads and didn't realize it was you. For some reason, I key on posters' avatars rather than usernames.

quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:...
And geeze, at one point in law school, I died my hair black and almost looked like that. Wish I could go back...

I went to grad school with a girl who was completely into the goth look during our first year. Of course, as soon as the second year arrived and it was time to start interviewing, she was Ms. Corporate.

What are the RULES for Event Caches?

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