Working with landowners

May 12, 2003

As a land manager, with professional interest in GPS, I have followed the development of Geocaching in this country over the past few months, and have begun to liaise with some members of the geocaching community.

There are lots of positive benfits to the activity, and the very fact that people are encouraged to explore countryside in a non-invasive manner has found support with my bosses.

It is very important for me and my colleagues to know what is happening on our sites, and that requires an acceptance of guidelines that we are currently developing. Other landowners will potentially follow if we can show that this approach works, and the caching potential for you is enormous, given mutual trust.

That trust can only be achieved through an organisation that formally adopts the guidelines and has a membership structure that ensures that guidelines are adopted by individuals who place caches.

In the absence of such an agreement, it is likely that cache placement will not find favour with landowners, and they are likely to reject requests to place caches, or actively find caches and remove them.

Geocaching is a great new activity, making wide use of access to the countryside, but there is no right to place caches in this country, and so I would implore you to make the best of forming an organisation, and using that formal mechansim to develop a strong relationship with landowners and their agents.

May 12, 2003

Steve of team Rockratgirl speaks:

I would like to say how much I have enjoyed Geocaching since we started at the beginning of this year. I get an enormous sense of freedom from hunting the caches, and visiting places I would not normally visit.

However, I feel alarmed by some posts on this board which seem to suggest that some people want to control Geocaching within this country (the UK).

So far, team Rockratgirl have had lots of fun without any kind of control from an umbrella organisation. I fail to see the need for any kind of umbrella organisation. I believe that people have the responsibility to conduct themselves in the countryside. Also, I believe people have the ability to negotiate with landowners themselves as to the placing of caches.

Furthermore, the UK and Ireland is far too large geographically to be represented a handful of people in the South of England.

This feels to me like Empire building.

~ Plastic to the People ~

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Rockratgirl:
Steve of team Rockratgirl speaks:

I would like to say how much I have enjoyed Geocaching since we started at the beginning of this year. I get an enormous sense of freedom from hunting the caches, and visiting places I would not normally visit.

However, I feel alarmed by some posts on this board which seem to suggest that some people want to control Geocaching within this country (the UK).

So far, team Rockratgirl have had lots of fun without any kind of control from an umbrella organisation. I fail to see the need for any kind of umbrella organisation. I believe that people have the responsibility to conduct themselves in the countryside. Also, I believe people have the ability to negotiate with landowners themselves as to the placing of caches.

Furthermore, the UK and Ireland is far too large geographically to be represented a handful of people in the South of England.

This feels to me like Empire building.

~ Plastic to the People ~

I think you have single handedly sealed the fate of caching in the UK on council owned/mamaged land.

Congratulations !

May 12, 2003

Call me cynical if you want to ("....You're cynical...!") but this sounds very odd. If Mr Countryside Manager HCC has got such a interest in GPS and has followed geocaching for months, why the sudden registration today and the single posting, and never found nor placed a geocache?

Surely it couldn't be a case of a quick phone call to "help" friends curry a few more "yes" votes?

I seem to have heard these points before somwehere.

My thoughts go to a much bigger polling situation (the general election) and what would be said if Tony Blair wrote an election address for George Bush to read out on a Labour Party Election Broadcast. The similarity is obvious.

May 12, 2003

"Furthermore, the UK and Ireland is far too large geographically to be represented a handful of people in the South of England."

Especially when it comes to Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

I would have thought that councils had more to worry about that a few luchboxes being hidden away and visited on a regular basis.

1.8k · May 12, 2003

It beggers belief that in one message (that of Rockratgirl) so much can be done to undo a tremendous amount of hard work. Of course we all want freedom and no association can stop anyone using the services of Geocaching.com to find caches whether a member or not but here is a sincere attempt to foster good relations with people who can control where caches are placed, i.e. landowners and managers, possibly scuppered by somone who does not appear to have understood the issues involved.

As for a land manager putting his point of view - why not? Whether he was prompted or not is not relevant. At least he was open as to his identity - unlike a few trolls we have had recently!

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by jstead:
It beggers belief that in one message so much can be done to undo a tremendous amount of hard work. Of course we all want freedom and no association can stop anyone using the services of Geocaching.com to find caches whether a member or not but here is a sincere attempt to foster good relations with people who can control where caches are placed, i.e. landowners and managers, possibly scuppered by somone who does not appear to have understood the issues involved.

But who is this mysterious posting person? Anyone can say they are from a Council and "implore" you to vote. We can all do our own negotiating thanks.

What issues am I not understanding then? Please enlighten me? Or are they not for us mere Cachers?

Lastly, what an apocalyptic imagination you and Tim & June have - please try to keep a sense of perspective!

~ Plastic to the People ~

1.8k · May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Rockratgirl:
But who is this mysterious posting person? Anyone can say they are from a Council and "implore" you to vote. We can all do our own negotiating thanks.

No mystery - unless someone has been very devious it is all on his profile!

What does aplocalyptic mean? Don't bother to tell me thank you.

May 12, 2003

I'm totally gob smacked!

I was asked and agreed to shut up while the poll was running. Others were asked to clarify when the poll would end. That never did get answered. Until this thread I kept to that. That stops right now.

I cannot and will not keep quite over this.

You are winning and have been. Quite frankly, I would have been amazed at any other outcome.

If this organisation intends to conduct it's business in this inept way I really do believe it is going to cause far more harm than good.

If they fail to get their way with landowners are they going to resort to wit, tongue in cheek comments, and humour. I should think the top brass at the national Trust and Forestry Commision will love that.

This whole launch has been a comedy of errors. I'd rather give up the sport.

Anyone want to buy a GPS?

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by jstead:

quote:
Originally posted by Rockratgirl:
But who is this mysterious posting person? Anyone can say they are from a Council and "implore" you to vote. We can all do our own negotiating thanks.

No mystery - unless someone has been very devious it is all on his profile!

What does aplocalyptic mean? Don't bother to tell me thank you.

Why would they have to be VERY devious. Only a small amount is needed to do that. The profile just says Countryside Manager HCC and links to the website. I could do one for Tony Blair, except the admins round here probably know my domain names by now.

Absoloutly nothing there to prove anything.

The point is not whether this person is really who they claim to be or not. Politically in a poll it is a hugly stupid move, especially when your winning.

If anyone has undone anything here it's the HCC.

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 12, 2003

Steve from Rockratgirl -

Let me just ask that no one gives up their GPS just yet. This game belongs to us. We've played the game, enjoyed the game and caused no serious damage. There is no reason why we should not continue to do this in the future.

The people who will kill Geocaching will be those who try to control it, and thereby kill the spirit of Geocaching.

Of course, the first recourse of the dictator is censorship ...

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Rockratgirl:
Steve from Rockratgirl -

Let me just ask that no one gives up their GPS just yet. This game belongs to us. We've played the game, enjoyed the game and caused no serious damage. There is no reason why we should not continue to do this in the future.

The people who will kill Geocaching will be those who try to control it, and thereby kill the spirit of Geocaching.

Of course, the first recourse of the dictator is censorship ...

Don't panic. I'm not going anywhere just yet and I certainly won't be selling the GPS. I use it far more with other hobbies the this one.

I've just had a post go that way as I used the N word in full.

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 12, 2003

By Rockratgirl

quote:
Lastly, what an apocalyptic imagination you and Tim & June have - please try to keep a sense of perspective!

Hear! Hear!

Originally from Jstead

quote:
What does aplocalyptic mean? Don't bother to tell me thank you

Who is the one who didn't use their spellchecker then ?

quote:
unlike a few trolls we have had recently!

What proof have you of this or is this label you give anyone who disagrees with your opinion.

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

1.4k · May 12, 2003

Ever get a feeling of deja vu?

Every thread started recently seems to be ending in the same discussion. We are going round in circles and have to accept we are not all going to agree. I think it is perfectly reasonable / responsible for a landowner / manager to state their veiws - after all, it is their land we want to place caches on. Whether or not there is an association, the landowner has the ulitmate right, and they will set their own rules, some of which we might not like, but it is their land.

Am I the only one who thinks that were this any other topic, a moderator might have stepped in to say 'enough is enough'?. Maybe this illustrates the potential conflict of interest, because if one tried to do it now they would be accused of all sorts.

So, as I for one am getting dizzy on this roundabout, can I ask for these threads to be locked (or whatever)?.

If you want to join the (an?) association, go ahead, and help it to evolve for its members purposes.

If not, don't join. Simple!

Maria

May 12, 2003

quote:
If you want to join the (an?) association, go ahead, and help it to evolve for its members purposes.
If not, don't join. Simple!

Well Said Chris n Maria.

Surely enough is enough, this is now achieving nada.

Gaz.

We take our children everywhere, but they always find their way back home...

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:
Ever get a feeling of deja vu?

Every thread started recently seems to be ending in the same discussion. We are going round in circles and have to accept we are not all going to agree. I think it is perfectly reasonable / responsible for a landowner / manager to state their veiws - after all, it is their land we want to place caches on. Whether or not there is an association, the landowner has the ulitmate right, and they will set their own rules, some of which we might not like, but it is their land.

Am I the only one who thinks that were this any other topic, a moderator might have stepped in to say 'enough is enough'?. Maybe this illustrates the potential conflict of interest, because if one tried to do it now they would be accused of all sorts.

So, as I for one am getting dizzy on this roundabout, can I ask for these threads to be locked (or whatever)?.

If you want to join the (an?) association, go ahead, and help it to evolve for its members purposes.

If not, don't join. Simple!

Maria

This cuts both ways. Have an association by all means but don't claim to be THE SINGLE voice!

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 12, 2003

If the GAGB website wording is all that the problem is can someone PLEASE change the website?

I myself support the idea of an association but I agree, the wording is inaccurate - the association will only ever represent the association's members, not all UK cachers.

Regards,

Lisa

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Countryside Manager HCC:
As a land manager, with professional interest in GPS, I have followed the development of Geocaching in this country over the past few months, and have begun to liaise with some members of the geocaching community.

<snip>

Thank you for getting in contact with all of us here. I am sure we are all glad that you have taken the time and effort to speak to us.

I have said before that I think guidelines are a good idea, as is GAGB, because although we as individuals know how to conduct ourselves in the countryside, we all know that others don't. We have to respect the landowners requests, and if that means having a body that can help negotiate those requests, that's a fantastic idea, and I welcome it.

I hope an agreement will come into place. I wouldn't like to see caching die an untimely death, especially after so many people have put in so much work.

A lot of people feel very strongly against the issue, but a lot of the arguments appear to be on very technical issues (the name, the way a few pieces have been worded etc.) but don't realise how much organisations like yours would respect such an association.

In response to RockRatgirl - I don't see in what way the organisation would be run in the South of England - it's already been stated that representatives suitable to the position would be elected, and I can't see how a Winchester cacher would be elected to be a rep for Argyll - It wouldn't happen.

But feelings are running very high at the moment. Feelings that I hope we can all move on from. I hope that we will move on from this position to help secure Geocaching as a recognised outdoor activity, and once again, I thank you for having your interest in us.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Icenians:
This cuts both ways. Have an association by all means but don't claim to be THE SINGLE voice!

Having once been a member, for many years, of another group who claim to represent a whole hobby (the Radio Society of Great Britain - or RSGB) plus having served on many committees for various issues (both hobby and professionally), I have to say that my immediate reaction to anyone wanting to set up such an organisation is count me out!

I'm sure people start out with good intensions, they may even initially believe that it's for everyones best interest. However, I am now inclined to the point of view that, at best, organisations like this are irrelavent and, at worst, they get hijacked by people with a particular axe to grind.

I have a theory, probably not original, that if you want to stop something that you don't like, then the best way is to form a committee to come up with rules to govern it.

--... ...--

Morseman

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kouros:
but don't realise how much organisations like yours would respect such an association.

Where on earth do you get that idea from!

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Icenians:

quote:
Originally posted by Kouros:
but don't realise how much organisations like yours would respect such an association.

Where on earth do you get that idea from!

From the statement, by HCC at the top of this thread that...

quote:
That trust can only be achieved through an organisation that formally adopts the guidelines and has a membership structure that ensures that guidelines are adopted by individuals who place caches.

and also

quote:
and so I would implore you to make the best of forming an organisation, and using that formal mechansim to develop a strong relationship with landowners and their agents.

I haven't just plucked this opinion from thin air.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

May 12, 2003

When the going gets tough, run away and blame someone else.

Any one who was in negotiations with an association would only need to look at the poll results. 55 cast votes so far from 1890

And the yes votes were just over half those cast. Now if I were in negotiations as a landowner I would not even waste my time talking to a representative who only had the backing of 30 out of 1890 what would be the point, nothing could be resolved in discussions with them.

Set up an association keep it separate represent your members. Not every one wants what you do but if they joined your association you would be like minded with the members.

I joined Geocaching.com and accepted their rules on joining.

What GAGB is proposing is coming close to the closed shop mentality of the 70s

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kouros:

quote:
Originally posted by Icenians:

quote:
Originally posted by Kouros:
but don't realise how much organisations like yours would respect such an association.

Where on earth do you get that idea from!

From the statement, by HCC at the top of this thread that...

quote:
That trust can only be achieved through an organisation that formally adopts the guidelines and has a membership structure that ensures that guidelines are adopted by individuals who place caches.

and also

quote:
and so I would implore you to make the best of forming an organisation, and using that formal mechansim to develop a strong relationship with landowners and their agents.

I haven't just plucked this opinion from thin air.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

http://www.scubaboard.com/images/smilies/soapbox.gif

I meant the bit about us not realising that CC's like to work with an organisation. CC's don't own the country just a small part. They don't want your cache, find somewhere that does!

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 12, 2003

With all due respect, the HCC person does not speak for all landowners. We are all capable, if we wish, to follow Geocaching.com regulations and seek approval from relevant landowners/organisations with regard to placing/maintaining caches.

Geocachers have successfully done this, and continue to do this, without an Association who proposes to take this element of the sport away from us.

And it is not a simple case of joining or not joining = if this goes ahead then regular Geocachers won't be able to place caches in areas they know and with the approval of landowners who understand the local people.

~ Plastic to the People ~

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Icenians:
I meant the bit about us not realising that CC's like to work with an organisation.

My bad, that is, if you do realise that CC's would respect such a central body.

quote:
CC's don't own the country just a small part. They don't want your cache, find somewhere that does!

And what happens when "somewhere else" finds that Geocaching isn't supported by the local council because we are unco-operative, and don't listen to their requests when we want to use their land?

What about the otherwise thoroughly suitable caches that are placed on CC land? Should they all be removed?

According to this site the HCC owns 3000miles of Footpaths, bridleways, RUPPs and BOATs in Hampshire.

The vast majority of caching you could do in Hampshire will make use of these rights of way in one form or another.

That's just Hampshire County Council. Extend that across the whole of the UK.

Councils are not people we want to work against, but rather with.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Rockratgirl:
...without an Association who proposes to take this element of the sport away from us.

And it is not a simple case of joining or not joining = if this goes ahead then regular Geocachers won't be able to place caches in areas they know and with the approval of landowners who understand the local people.

With all due respect, where was it mentioned that geocachers wouldn't be able to seek approval from landowners locally?

I'm amazed that you can argue so passionately against something that you don't know the purpose of.

Rich

mobilis in mobili

May 12, 2003

Steve from Rockratgirl:

The principle of subsidiarity:

Is that all decisions are made at the lowest relevant level. IE. in the European Union for instance, the Channel Tunnel would have Europe-wide implications and therefore would be a matter for the Council of Ministers (the highest body in the EU). A new bus shelter on Thingy Road in Smallville would be a matter for the local council.

Therefore, the placing of a local cache isn't a matter for a regional body representing (or imposed upon) Geocachers, but rather the local Cachers & the local landowner.

Why the bureaucracy of National permission when the job can be done and permission received at a local level as it has been done before. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

~ Plastic for the People ~

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kouros:
And what happens when "somewhere else" finds that Geocaching isn't supported by the local council because we are unco-operative, and don't listen to their requests when we want to use their land?

Most landowners I know don't rate the councils opinion very highly.

quote:
What about the otherwise thoroughly suitable caches that are placed on CC land? Should they all be removed?

If they don't have permission then they shouldn't be there anywhere.

quote:
According to http://www.hants.gov.uk/scrmxn/c10869.html the HCC owns 3000miles of Footpaths, bridleways, RUPPs and BOATs in Hampshire.

Do they own the land these paths etc run through or do they just mantain it all?

Most public paths I go on have pretty signs put up by the council but the farmer still owns the land.

quote:
The vast majority of caching you could do in Hampshire will make use of these rights of way in one form or another.

The permission needed from the council is whether the cache can be placed on their land not whether I can walk on a right of way (I can) to get to it.

quote:
Councils are not people we want to work against, but rather _with_.

Then join the council and change it from there. Then you can represent your council not mine!

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 12, 2003

quote:

quote:
What about the otherwise thoroughly suitable caches that are placed on CC land? Should they all be removed?

If they don't have permission then they shouldn't be there anywhere.

True - but you are proposing not even trying to get HCC on side.

quote:

quote:
According to http://www.hants.gov.uk/scrmxn/c10869.html the HCC owns 3000miles of Footpaths, bridleways, RUPPs and BOATs in Hampshire.

Do they own the land these paths etc run through or do they just mantain it all?

Most public paths I go on have pretty signs put up by the council but the farmer still owns the land.

From the first paragraph of the page that I linked to: "This Panel is charged by the Recreation Committee with recording, protecting and maintaining nearly 3,000 miles (4,800 kms) of footpaths, bridleways, roads used as public paths (RUPPs) and byways open to all traffic (BOATs)."

They are therefore Maintained by HCC, but they would also have a large say in what is allowed to be there.

quote:

quote:
The vast majority of caching you could do in Hampshire will make use of these rights of way in one form or another.

The permission needed from the council is whether the cache can be placed on their land not whether I can walk on a right of way (I can) to get to it.

No, but the caches that are on these rights of way? I know a large percentage of caches I've done have been on these footpaths.

quote:

quote:
Councils are not people we want to work against, but rather _with_.

Then join the council and change it from there. Then you can represent your council not mine!

I'm sorry - but that makes no sense. We are in a position to work with the council from here.

We are getting something from them, not they from us. We should be willing to give a little, to gain a lot.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kouros:
From the first paragraph of the page that I linked to: "This Panel is charged by the Recreation Committee with recording, protecting and maintaining nearly 3,000 miles (4,800 kms) of footpaths, bridleways, roads used as public paths (RUPPs) and byways open to all traffic (BOATs)."

They are therefore Maintained by HCC, but they would also have a large say in what is allowed to be there.

So if I have a footpath across my field the council can say to GAGB go ahead and put plastic boxes on it!

What rubbish! The landowners permission not the council that cuts the brambles in the lane.

quote:
No, but the caches that are on these rights of way? I know a large percentage of caches I've done have been on these footpaths.

Which are owned by other people. Read the thread on footpaths elsewhere in this forum.

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 12, 2003

I can’t stay silent any longer. I am extremely saddened that my enjoyable family hobby is being ruined like this. I see in another thread that this has cost us the services of another set of moderators. I’m not going to point fingers at anyone or take sides as I think there have been serious mistakes on both sides.

I believe Rockratgirl and Icenians both owe Phil Allen (the country side manager at HCC) an apology for the way in which they have spoken to him. This gentleman has come to our forum and has been treated with nothing but contempt and rudeness. This in my opinion is no way to speak to someone from outside our community and is no way for adults to carry on a debate.

As a Hampshire resident who was about to seek permission to hide a new cache, I am annoyed to find that neither Rockrategirl nor Icenians live in the Hampshire area.

I ask everyone to show a lot more respect and courtesy to others, especially those parties outside the community.

[This message was edited by Freak Enterprises on May 12, 2003 at 01:41 PM.]

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Countryside Manager HCC:

In the absence of such an agreement, it is likely that cache placement will not find favour with landowners, and they are likely to reject requests to place caches, or actively find caches and remove them.

Are you saying that if a non-member of, say, the Ramblers Association tells you that, although they are prepared to abide by the law they wont commit themselves to abiding by any guidelines put forward by the Ramblers Association to their members, because they are not members of that organisation, that you will then refuse to talk to the Ramblers Association?

Because that's what I think you just said.

--... ...--

Morseman

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Icenians:
So if I have a footpath across my field the council can say to GAGB go ahead and put plastic boxes on it!

What rubbish! The landowners permission not the council that cuts the brambles in the lane.

And would you prefer to deal with each Land Owner on an individual basis (considering how many there are), or, follow HCC guidelines if those guidelines would allow Geocaching to be seen as a legitmate use of the right of way?

If it is (and I will readily admit I am theorising here) then Geocaching would be seen as an appropriate activity on the right of way, as long as it doesn't affect the Land surrounding it.

After all, it's not surprising, especially since Geocaching does far less damage than say, Green-Lane driving, which is allowed on Byways Open To All Traffic.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

May 12, 2003

As you can see from the number of posts below, we are very new to geocaching. Having read through several websites and forums over the last week, about 100 hours total (yes, sad isn't it) we joined gagb mostly due to T&J, sensible, down to earth people. Since joining, everything seems to have gone haywire, kewl, all we have to do now is instead of going walking with the dogs and not returning until the black bin bag was full of others refuse, we can go walking with the dogs, fill the bin bag, and hopefully find a cache or two, I am sure that the 'managers' we have already net and chatted with will appreciate the bin bag the same way, and the cache hunting with a little more lattitude. I still look forward to reading T&J's point(s) of view, and sincerely hope they will reconsider there untimely (imho) resignation. yes, I do realise I am crossing forum topics here, but again (imho) they are combined.

have fun and stay safe

Bill (marinor)

Life is just an illusion, albeit a very elaborate one.

May 12, 2003

quote:
I believe Rocratgirl and Icenians both owe Phil Allen (the country side manager at HCC) an apology for the way in which they have spoken to him. This gentleman has come to our forum and has been treated with nothing but contempt and rudeness. This in my opinion is no way to speak to someone from outside our community and is no way for adults to carry on a debate.

As a Hampshire resident who was about to seek permission to hide a new cache, I am annoyed to find that neither Rockrategirl nor Icenians live in the Hampshire area.

I ask everyone to show a lot more respect and courtesy to others, especially those parties outside the community.

Steve from Rockratgirl (note that spelling!):

On the subject of an apology - if I caused offence by being abusive or obnoxious then I apologise. However, I do not believe I have been. Anyone who finds my opinions objectionable will have to live with that, they are my opinions posted on a discussion forum.

On the subject of the posting from HCC - I find it incredible that a civil servant would suggest to a community group that they should vote a particular way on an issue. I have some knowledge and experience in this area. I have a degree in politics and have worked in local politics in Leicester. In fact, for him to do so is unconstitutional.

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that a County Council would take the GAGB to be representative of Geocachers with such a poor mandate. In Leicester, great problems have been caused by listening to self-appointed community groups which claim to be representative but in fact are not. The 50 or so votes for T&J out of nearly 1900 members, in effect is a vote of no confidence.

I think there needs to be an open discussion on any future associations of Geocachers in this country. A democratic mandate needs to be achieved before they present themselves as representative.

As a personal belief, I think this association, if it exists at all, should be limited in scope and power. Decisions over caches are best made at a local level. Attempts to regulate Geocaching in my opinion, will ruin the spontanity of the game. It is incredibly difficult to legislate for every eventuality and likelihood.

Lastly, I would like people to note whether it is in fact myself who is speaking or my fiance Sam. Therefore, any comments, criticism, discussion is welcomed as long as it is addressed to me.

May 12, 2003

A few weeks ago, I decided to read some of the New Zealand forum. They are going through this exact same process, as their governement agency representing the majority of their 'open spaces' contacted them directly (via the forums).

I have to say, they seem to have gone through many of the same emotions as everyone on this forum, and I have to say reading that before this came up has been 'deja-vu', but they seem to have got through the issue with a lot less bitterness.

Time will tell I suppose

Kerry

Phil'n'Kerry

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Countryside Manager HCC:
That trust can only be achieved through an organisation that formally adopts the guidelines and has a membership structure that ensures that guidelines are adopted by individuals who place caches.

I'm not sure I understand the bit about the membership structure. I'd been assuming that the association would be negotiating guidelines for placing caches on the land. This paragraph seems to be suggesting that it would be negotiating permission for its members to place caches on the land. There is a big difference between the two!

Those who feel the last few days debate has harmed geocaching should consider the explosive effect the following would have...

quote:
We are pleased to announce that Anyshire County Council have granted blanket permission for GAGB members to place caches on land under their stewardship, under the guidelines agreed with the GAGB. As part of this agreement, geocaching.com will only list caches in Anyshire if they were placed by a current member of the GAGB.

...and ensure it never happens!

GeocacheUK - resources for the UK Geocaching community.

May 12, 2003

quote:
Steve from Rockratgirl (note that spelling!):
On the subject of the posting from HCC - I find it incredible that a civil servant would suggest to a community group that they should vote a particular way on an issue.

Lets just cut the crap, and get to the jist of things:

1) Organisations like CC's FC's etc are not particularly wanting to deal with people on a one-by-one basis. It costs ££, and such peoaple are NOT organised.

2) Organisations like CC's FC's etc prefer to deal with an organisation because the "growing pains" of (1) happen the once... also, people fronting an organisation are usually more experienced with dealing with people in CC's etc. After initial teething problems, things tend to run more smoothly.

3) GC.com are growing big. They need to 'delegate' a lot more. As a result, in the US there are many state-based 'Geocaching Societies' (eg The Maryland Geocaching Society), which are run by elected memebers. These societies take on the delegated responsibilities of liasing with local organisations (indeed that is the VERY REASON they were started: to negotiate the permission for placing caches onto 'park' type lands, which would have otherwise put a blanket ban on caching), creating 'localised' guidelines for placing cachies, and also (as part of the GC.com team) approve the caches for GC.com.

4) The 'powers that be' in these US organisations are very happy to deal with the geocaching societies, as it gives them "single point of contact", which makes things cheaper, and run more smoothly.

5) putting together lots of information form various sources, there is NO QUESTION that if geocaching is to continue LEGALLY in the UK, we ***MUST*** create a 'UK geocaching society' of some sort, under the wing of GC.com, if we (a) wish to continue to be allowed to have caches published by GC.COM; ( we want the various UK organisations to decide to permit us to place caches on their lands

6) I don't really give a rats arse about ANY OTHER caching sites at the moment: I do NOT use them.... I use GC.com. If those OTHER sites want to join in, then they had better start negotiating with those organisations quick, or someone, somewhere, is gonna end up facing a test court case from one of them, if only to prove a point!

quote:
Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that a County Council would take the GAGB to be representative of Geocachers with such a poor mandate. In Leicester, great problems have been caused by listening to self-appointed community groups which claim to be representative but in fact are not. The 50 or so votes for T&J out of nearly 1900 members, in effect is a vote of no confidence.

Fine, set up your own society, and see how far YOU get! The way things look to me, time is currently NOT on our side!

quote:
As a personal belief, I think this association, if it exists at all, should be limited in scope and power. Decisions over caches are best made at a local level. Attempts to regulate Geocaching in my opinion, will ruin the spontanity of the game. It is incredibly difficult to legislate for every eventuality and likelihood.

As a personal belief, I reckon the ONLY way things are going to happen now is for GC.COM to effectively *impose* an organisation in the UK: if you want to have cacghes approved, then you will HAVE to be a member. If not, then publicise your caches elsewhere!

It will then be up to the other caching sites to decide what they wish to do.

I am VERY sad that T&J have been forced into such a corner by people who really have no idea about what the situation is.

By the way: I bet the various councils up in Yorkshire own a fair bit of land.....

Yours disgustedly

Paul Blitz

1.7k · May 12, 2003

What the detractors have seemed to miss, is the fact that CCs also act as landmanagers for land owners.I am hopping to place a cache on a area of land which is owned by a large company, but is managed on their behalf by my local CC. If I go to the company for permmision the chances are I'm going to be refered to their land manager. If they have been monitoring these forums or are in contact with their conterparts on HCC what chance have i got of getting permission to place a cache there.I have sounded out cc rangers at another site about permision, but was turned down due to there being Badger setts, off which i was not aware off but which received a good reception. Unfortunatly this cache means going to county hall for permision, bring geocaching to their attention. This argument over GAGB has cost us two uk moderators, and could even end up with blanket bans in several CC areas. The HCC land manager never claimed to go geocaching, just to be aware of it and to agrree with our aims. and yes i expect to be put down in this forum!

I burn to cache!

May 12, 2003

To the Countryside Manager. HCC.

Please accept my apologies for the way you have been adressed in this thread. I cannot speak for others as you will by now be aware there are too many people posting here who don't allow it. Those who have recently arrived to these fora would have done well to have read back through some of the earlier threads from some time back where it was pointed out that, I assume yourself, as well as some of your colleagues were visiting our site to see how your negotiations were being received.

Whilst I hope that despite the events of the last few days we are still able to negotiate with you and gain HCC approval you have my thanks for taking the time and effort to try to include our hobby within the councils programme of promoting more countryside activities. (I'm sure we'll now be told how you can't stop us anyway. )

Best Wishes

Dave / Kennamatic

To all those reading this.

I really don't care whether you agree with my sentiments or not, I was not speaking for you or to you. I will however try to treat visitors to this site, those I meet "in the field", even those I disagree with, with courtesy providing I think that they would understand such an ethos.

Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Blitz:

Lets just cut the crap, and get to the jist of things:

1) Organisations like CC's FC's etc are not particularly wanting to deal with people on a one-by-one basis. It costs ££, and such peoaple are NOT organised.

Ok, if that's the case, which organisation do I join to get my planning application considered?

Which organisation do I join to lodge a complaint or request to my council to get anything else done?

CCs up and down the country are contacted every day by individuals on a variety of issues.

Perhaps what should have been created was the GAoH (Geocaching Association of Hampshire) so that HCC could negotiate with an "organisation"?

--... ...--

Morseman

May 13, 2003

And still, the idiots continue !

Un-bloody believable !

Mr Allen, my sincere apologies.

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tim & June:
And still, the idiots continue !

Un-bloody believable !

Mr Allen, my sincere apologies.

Now why does a polite response to a post with some facts about dealing with a council make someone an idiot?

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 13, 2003

I rest my case !

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tim & June:
I rest my case !

I'm sorry but you cannot go around calling people idiots because of a statement like that.

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Icenians:
I'm sorry but you cannot go around calling people idiots because of a statement like that.

Oh! can't I ?

My most sincerest apologies !

I thought that now I was not admin, I had as much right to speak my mind here as any other.

Statistics show that cache approvals in the UK now take longest.

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tim & June:
Oh! can't I ?

My most sincerest apologies !

I thought that now I was not admin, I had as much right to speak my mind here as any other.

Statistics show that cache approvals in the UK now take longest.

Nope. Still can't find anywhere where I had a personal pop at anyone.

Apology accepted though

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 13, 2003

steve from rockratgirl:

to the countryside manager, hcc.

i really do apologies that you have been caught up in this squabble. however i hope you will appreciate that these boards are for members to discuss the sport of geocaching. as i am sure you are aware there is much disagreement as to changes proposed to this game which is causing much anxiety amongst members.

though i believe rather than see this as a negative, it should be viewed as concerned people voicing there opinions in the appropriate place.

furthermore, i do believe that the vast majority of geocachers are responsible visitors to the country. hunting a plastic box just adds spice to a nice walk!

therefore please don't view us negatively because we don't always agree.

yours sincerly, steve

~ Love many, trust few, learn to paddle your own Canoe ~

~ We can't run away for ever ... but theres nothing wrong with getting a good head start ~

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Morseman:

quote:
Originally posted by Team Blitz:

Lets just cut the crap, and get to the jist of things:

1) Organisations like CC's FC's etc are not particularly wanting to deal with people on a one-by-one basis. It costs ££, and such peoaple are NOT organised.

Ok, if that's the case, which organisation do I join to get my planning application considered?

A good architechural Consultancy could probably help!

I could have done with a 'planning approval support society' last year.. all I was doing was replacing a rather decrepit front porch with a new one.... talk about jumping through hoops!

quote:
Which organisation do I join to lodge a complaint or request to my council to get anything else done?

I believe there is an ombudsman to deal with complaints, CAB could probably also help....

quote:
CCs up and down the country are contacted every day by individuals on a variety of issues.

They (eg Planning Dept) are probably VERY good at dealing with professionals, I wasn't over-impressed with the 'support' I got from them.

Certain things councils HAVE to do (planning applications is one, sorting out Council Tax is another)... but if they don't HAVE to do something, and money is tight, what path will they take re geocaching if there is no association? (a) spend lots of time (= money) talking to lots of people; ( say *NO*, coz it's quick and cheap.

Bear in mind that every time you want them to do something (ie when it costs) that's ££ not going to local schools etc.... we come low down the list I'm afraid!

quote:
Perhaps what should have been created was the GAoH (Geocaching Association of Hampshire) so that HCC could negotiate with an "organisation"?

It HAS already been though of.......

Paul Blitz

May 13, 2003

I hope this won't be considered taking things too far off topic but the Planning Permission question is a good analogy and I wanted just to pursue it.

My work means I deal with planning departments quite often. It's true they deal with individual members of the public everyday, and many of those apllications will pass through without a hitch, but a great many don't because most individuals do not understand the way the planning department works or what to do to help themselves in the best way. Now, there's no real good reason why they should so it's not a criticism. If I was to go up against any of you to get a planning application through and you've never done it before or maybe only once, I will get approval before you because I know all the stuff that's needed plus the stuff that speeds things through the right channels.

An organisation who deals between geocaching and the councils would be able to do these things more efficiently because they will have the experience. All councils are different but usually work much the same way with a few "personal" traits.

This post isn't a pro or anti statement but one of fact in the real world where I know what I am talking about.

If someone deals with councils often enough as an individual they will become just as efficient, and maybe not even need "a body" behind them, but for many individual cachers dealing with each seperate group, organisation, department, commission or whatever will be time consuming for them and the process will be slow. A geocaching association, or whatever we want to call it would be able to move things quickly when required. The negotiations with HCC have taken many weeks to get them where they are. Had things, or should things, end with approval the next council will still want to look into it but things will move quicker. That council however will be much happier dealing with the same people as HCC. You may not like the idea, it may go against every bone in your body, but it is how it works.

End of lecture!

Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

Working with landowners

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment