Geocaching Trolls

[+Janomi]

     I’ve been geocaching since 2004. During that time, I’ve come across two types of geocaching trolls.  I’d like to know your thoughts on these two and if you’ve had similar or other trolling experiences.
 

     Vignette #1. In England from 2008-2010, we had a small group of individuals that would go find geocaches, throw them away, then post a log stating that geocaching is littering and that they will continue to get rid of them as quickly as we replace them.  Their group had a catchy name, but it escapes me at the moment.  We even started making all of our caches Premium caches, but they just signed up for accounts and kept doing it.  We contacted our local reviewer and the Geocaching HQ about it and they deleted their accounts, but the “activist” just created new ones, thus went on for almost two years until they eventually just stopped.

 

     Vignette #2. This is a current example.  I moved to the DC area about a year ago.  There’s a man here who actively goes after FTFs, but does not post digital logs for them. He’s built quite a reputation among other geocachers for his antics and I’ve been told that he’s gotten quite nasty with some geocachers.  I’ve only had two personal experiences with him, but I’ve also seen his snarky comments that he’s posted on his geocaching.com profile and on logs.

     Our first interaction happened a few months ago when I saw 5-6 geocaches published at a location that I happened to be about 30 minutes away from and driving toward with my wife.  When we arrived at the first geocaches, we were the FTF.  After signing the logs (physical and digital), we moved on to the second cache.  When we got there, we saw someone standing with the cache container in hand and we’re going to walk up and chat with them.  Instead, the guy jumped in his car and drove off, taking the cache container with him.  We thought maybe we were mistaken, so we looked for a moment and then decided to move on to the next cache.  When we arrived at each of the next ones, we found that some were missing and the others had thus guy’s geocache handle written on them (no date).  We waited with a few other geocachers who had arrived by this point and and watched as he returned to each location and replaced the cache containers one-by-one.  This is when they other geocachers told me about his antics.  They told me that he does this often. This is the only time I’ve seen it with my own eyes, but it was a shocking display of poor sportsmanship and poor manners.  When we posted what we saw in our logs, he messaged me stating that everything we posted was untrue, but “Keep in mind that all FTF seekers take a chance of being something other than the FTFer when attempting to be the first finder on a new cache. Don't take things so seriously.”
     
     I’ve since arrived at a couple of other recently published geocaches that have had his signature on the physical log, but no digital log.  I just log it (without mention of FTF) and move on, but many others in the area just claim the FTF since he doesn’t do a digital log.  It’s obvious that he does this just to troll other geocachers.  I find this very rude, especially considering that some geocachers travel great distances and spend a lot of time and effort in an attempt to get a FTF and would choose to spent their time differently if they knew that the geocache had already been found. I know Groundspeak doesn’t acknowledge FTFs as an official statistic, but should a log be considered a “find” if the individual doesn’t complete the log process by submitting a digital log?  
 

     What your thoughts are on either of these?

Edited April 26, 2023 by Janomi

[+lee737]

#1 - we've had a cache smasher in these parts on and off over the years.... they do seem to get bored and move on/grow up.... making easy-access caches premium seems to help keep them safer.

 

#2 - I've never seen anything like that..... it sounds like he has some sort of personality disorder, or is just a jerk, probably both....  

 

The paper-only guy.... I wouldn't claim FTF if someone had legitimately signed it before me - could they be caches from a sock-puppet account of his?? He seems the type!

Edited April 26, 2023 by lee737

[hsiale]

33 minutes ago, Janomi said:

a shocking display of poor sportsmanship and poor manners

Poor manners, of course. Poor sportsmanship, no way, geocaching is not a sport.

[+Max and 99]

#2. If I wasn't first to find I wouldn't claim first to find, even if I was the first to log and the first to find never logs online. This happened to me before. 

[+Smitherington]

A little tongue in cheek here - Seeing how FTF is not a recognized stat one could creat a new non-recognized stat - First to log online.

 

I have not had those experiences but it would bug me. Fortunately they usually tire of their antics and move on. 

[+niraD]

5 hours ago, Janomi said:

     I’ve been geocaching since 2004. During that time, I’ve come across two types of geocaching trolls.  I’d like to know your thoughts on these two and if you’ve had similar or other trolling experiences.

The best thing about geocaching is that anyone can play. The worst thing about geocaching is that anyone can play.

 

5 hours ago, Janomi said:

     Vignette #1. In England from 2008-2010, we had a small group of individuals that would go find geocaches, throw them away, then post a log stating that geocaching is littering and that they will continue to get rid of them as quickly as we replace them.  Their group had a catchy name, but it escapes me at the moment.  We even started making all of our caches Premium caches, but they just signed up for accounts and kept doing it.  We contacted our local reviewer and the Geocaching HQ about it and they deleted their accounts, but the “activist” just created new ones, thus went on for almost two years until they eventually just stopped.

I've never encountered the pseudo-environmentalist cache maggots before, but I've heard about them. They can persist for months, even years, but eventually they get bored and move on.

 

And I've encountered the bored adolescent boy version of cache maggot. They tend to find a new game to play after a few weeks.

 

5 hours ago, Janomi said:

     Vignette #2. This is a current example.  I moved to the DC area about a year ago.  There’s a man here who actively goes after FTFs, but does not post digital logs for them.

I knew someone who never posted online logs. He started geocaching before online logs existed, when you could write a log only in the physical logbook in the cache. He saw no reason to change.

 

But he didn't make a point of taunting the local FTF hounds. He might have gotten an occasional FTF on a more remote cache somewhere on his travels, but that wasn't why he geocached.

 

Personally, I've logged all my FTFs the same way I've logged my other Finds: sitting at my desk, using my field notes drafts to write a proper log. The only logs I've posted from the field have been urgent NM logs (e.g., when the camouflage fell apart in my hands and I couldn't re-hide the cache anywhere near its location, and I needed to let the CO and others know that I had taken it home with me).

Edited April 26, 2023 by niraD
typo

[+Janomi]

7 hours ago, hsiale said:

Poor manners, of course. Poor sportsmanship, no way, geocaching is not a sport.

It’s semantics, but Oxford dictionary defines sportsmanship as “fair or generous behavior or treatment of others, especially in a sports contest.” This definition isn’t exclusive to only “sports contests.” I don’t know anyone what would consider geocaching a sport, but some people certainly consider aspects of it competitive.  In the case of this individual intentionally taking competitive action (rushing to be FTF) and then taunting other geocachers, I think my usage of the term sportsmanship works just fine to get my point across.  

[+Janomi]

7 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

#2. If I wasn't first to find I wouldn't claim first to find, even if I was the first to log and the first to find never logs online. This happened to me before. 

 

3 hours ago, Smitherington said:

A little tongue in cheek here - Seeing how FTF is not a recognized stat one could creat a new non-recognized stat - First to log online.

 

I have not had those experiences but it would bug me. Fortunately they usually tire of their antics and move on. 

I agree.  I wouldn’t either.  On the most recent log, I wrote, “I see that +++++ was the first to find this one. In line with his modus operandi, he signed the physical log, but not the digital log.”  
 

A lot of the locals are just fed up with his trolling and I they’ve simply pretend that he doesn’t exist.  I think this response just fuels his antics.  It all seems petty to me.  I wrote this post because I was curious how others have dealt with (or would deal with) similar situations.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Janomi
Typo

[+cerberus1]

On #1...

We were newbs just starting and went for pretty-much anything at the time (there were few caches and cachers...).

Every time we'd go far into the woods, the ammo can cache would be missing when we got there, or it'd be gone by the next cacher.

One event we went to had the other 2/3rds leaving in tears, hearing people talking about that cerberus couple that steals caches.

Eventually we started getting hate mail and she didn't even want to go out unless I was with her... This once fun hobby sucked...

One day we met a cacher coming from where we were heading, said hi, and noticed that familiar outline of a 50cal in his pack.

Chitchat got me a name, and then I told him the jig's up...   

I let everyone in the caching community know I found the guy who was stealing their caches, his name, and other info.

Turned out his mom was moving, and the landlord (a geocacher) had to do the check for their security back, and in the basement were shelves of caches, and trackables hanging on hooks. 

He apparently couldn't do anything about it as the landlord, but he told all who was affected that we did find the right guy.

You know, not one person in an entire community ever apologized to us...

[+arisoft]

11 hours ago, Janomi said:

There’s a man here who actively goes after FTFs, but does not post digital logs for them.

 

Could you explain, why he should post online logs at all, whether they are FTF or not?

 

I have heard that somewhere there is general practice to delay FTF logs on purpose. Posting them immediatelly is considered a bad habit.

[+barefootguru]

18 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

Could you explain, why he should post online logs at all, whether they are FTF or not?

 

I have heard that somewhere there is general practice to delay FTF logs on purpose. Posting them immediatelly is considered a bad habit.

If you don’t post ASAP, other cachers can waste time & petrol trying for the FTF without realising it’s gone.  Definitely good form to log as soon as possible in Aotearoa New Zealand.

Edited April 26, 2023 by barefootguru

[+Bear and Ragged]

Quote

Vignette #1. In England from 2008-2010, we had a small group of individuals that would go find geocaches, throw them away, then post a log stating that geocaching is littering and that they will continue to get rid of them as quickly as we replace them.

 

In the Midlands?

Claimed they had downloaded the information, so even if banned by GS they know where the caches were!

 

Quote

Vignette #2.

 

If they dont log online, whats the problem? If they start getting snarky with someone who claims FTF online? Maybe they need to start logging online!

 

I log online when I get home (even though I cache with a mobile phone..). FTF hounds need to be aware the cache may have already been found!

 

[+TriciaG]

It's his right to find caches first. It's his right to not log it online. There are no rules or guidelines against it. There is no law that says a find must be logged online.

Pedantically, those who log it first online aren't the FTF, if their name isn't first in the log. But since FTF is a side game without HQ policing, they can claim FTF online if they want to.

Personally, I wouldn't let the guy get under my skin.

Edited April 26, 2023 by TriciaG

[+arisoft]

36 minutes ago, barefootguru said:

If you don’t post ASAP, other cachers can waste time & petrol trying for the FTF without realising it’s gone.  Definitely good form to log as soon as possible in Aotearoa New Zealand.

 

The others are not going to find the cache at all if not getting FTF?

 

Here in Finland we gather as a big group, like a small event, to sign the FTF. Sometimes we must wait for a long time at the cache because someone is coming from further away. Then we compete who get the first on-line log after signing the logbook.

Edited April 26, 2023 by arisoft

[+Max and 99]

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

The others are not going to find the cache at all if not getting FTF?

 

Well said.

I once got a snarky comment from someone who would have been first to find but we were 20 minutes ahead of them. I was scolded for not logging promptly cuz he wasted his time going there. I explained that I logged at ground zero with the log in one hand and my phone in the other. As soon as I signed the log I then logged it online! How much faster could I possibly have been? 

Apparently he didn't refresh the page and didn't know it was already logged. But my gosh you still get a find! 

[+Janomi]

7 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Could you explain, why he should post online logs at all, whether they are FTF or not?

 

I have heard that somewhere there is general practice to delay FTF logs on purpose. Posting them immediatelly is considered a bad habit.

Logging your funds online is normal practice that is “encouraged” by Groundspeak.  I’ve never heard of anywhere that is is general practice to delay logging a find.  Where is that normal?  I’m not disagreeing, just stating that I’ve never heard of it and have always heard quite the opposite. 

 

6 hours ago, Bear and Ragged said:

 

In the Midlands?

Claimed they had downloaded the information, so even if banned by GS they know where the caches were!

 

Yes, in the Midlands.  It started around Northampton and spread from there.

 

6 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

The others are not going to find the cache at all if not getting FTF?

I assume they’d still go find the geocache.  I would not assume that they’d go in the middle of the night or make a specific trip just for that cache, maybe they’d find it next time they’re already in the area. 

 

5 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Well said.

I once got a snarky comment from someone who would have been first to find but we were 20 minutes ahead of them. I was scolded for not logging promptly cuz he wasted his time going there. 

Sound like someone else who lacks manners.

 

//////////////

//////////////

I agree with everyone who says that someone should not claim a FTF if they aren’t the first person to sign the log.  I stated that in both of my posted. ^ 

 

The thing that both vignettes have in common is that these individuals are acting the way they are from a place of malice.  I don’t understand why someone would act in a way that purposely makes the game less fun for others.  Why participate at all if that’s the case.  

 

[+Goldenwattle]

7 hours ago, arisoft said:

I have heard that somewhere there is general practice to delay FTF logs on purpose. Posting them immediatelly is considered a bad habit.

That would be considered rude here. Not posting as soon as you can about the FTF is inconsiderate of others who might make the journey still thinking they might get FTF. Be polite and log that FTF as soon as you can.

[+MNTA]

@cerberus1 It saddens me that you had this experience. Hope things are better now.

[+arisoft]

3 hours ago, Janomi said:

 I don’t understand why someone would act in a way that purposely makes the game less fun for others.

 

Can you explain how this makes the game less fun. It definitely will be more exciting to search a cache when you don't know wether it is already found.

[+TheLimeCat]

55 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

Can you explain how this makes the game less fun. It definitely will be more exciting to search a cache when you don't know wether it is already found.

Presumably, the people who receive a new cache notification and dash out the door at a moment's notice to be the first to sign the log will not find it as fun to find that log already signed by another person. It probably doesn't need to be said that the FTF niche exists because it offers its participants a particular brand of fun not found in traditional caching; the fun inherent in competing with others and being the first among them. If it were equally rewarding to be the second or third to find a cache, why attempt to be the first? To meet other cachers, maybe, but I think that is just a fun side-effect for the vast majority.

Edited April 27, 2023 by TheLimeCat

[+baer2006]

5 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

That would be considered rude here. Not posting as soon as you can about the FTF is inconsiderate of others who might make the journey still thinking they might get FTF. Be polite and log that FTF as soon as you can.

I agree with "as soon as you can". But there are any number of reasons why this might not be "immediately after I signed the physical log and replaced the cache".

• No cell phone reception at GZ (I'm German - this happens a lot here in the countryside)
• Depleted phone battery. I've seen more than one FTF log, where someone said they ran out in a hurry after a long day, their battery ran out shortly before they reached GZ, but the hide was obvious so they found the cache anyway.
• Someone doesn't cache with a smartphone (rarely nowadays, but still happens)

In the end, if you go FTF hunting, you should not assume that the first finder logs his find immediately, even if everyone follows an agreed best practice of "logging as soon as they can". If you cannot stand the sight of a non-empty physical log without a corresponding online log, you shouldn't run for FTFs IMHO.

 

And BTW, my own "as soon as you" can online logs after FTFs are just notes and not finds (for several reasons).

 

[+niraD]

47 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

• Someone doesn't cache with a smartphone (rarely nowadays, but still happens)

Even some of us who now use smartphones also use field notes drafts and write our logs once we're sitting at a desk again.

[+baer2006]

27 minutes ago, niraD said:

Even some of us who now use smartphones also use field notes drafts and write our logs once we're sitting at a desk again.

This is one of the reasons, why I only post a note with "FTF". The find is stored as a draft, to be uploaded and filled out later at home.

[+Goldenwattle]

  

2 hours ago, baer2006 said:

as soon as you can

This has been a couple of hours later,  but it was "as soon as you can". That's what I meant, as soon as you can. Not wait a day or two when you could have logged it.

[+cerberus1]

4 hours ago, baer2006 said:

I agree with "as soon as you can". But there are any number of reasons why this might not be "immediately after I signed the physical log and replaced the cache".

 - skip - 

In the end, if you go FTF hunting, you should not assume that the first finder logs his find immediately, even if everyone follows an agreed best practice of "logging as soon as they can". If you cannot stand the sight of a non-empty physical log without a corresponding online log, you shouldn't run for FTFs IMHO.

 

Yep.  The other 2/3rds, at the time a FTF monster, and one of the first to use a phone for caching (blackberry and Trimble...) still went home to log the find.

It's not a FTF "race", "hunt", or "game" if everyone is notified to not bother when the FTF is logged.

Someone would get halfway there and turn around for home?

She'd go out after midnight, and meet others in their PJs for cryin' out loud...   

 

[+baer2006]

22 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Someone would get halfway there and turn around for home?

I know at least one "FTF monster" (as you would call him ) in my home area who does exactly that.

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:

She'd go out after midnight, and meet others in their PJs for cryin' out loud...   

I've heard of FTF parties being common in some areas, where the FTF waits for the other FTF hounds to show up, and everyone spends time socializing before heading home. The closest I got was an FTF at a local park, a few minutes after the park opened. There were 3 of us there, and we spent a couple minutes chatting while we all signed the log and I replaced the cache. But we didn't linger because we all had real-life morning commitments.

[+Goldenwattle]

8 hours ago, baer2006 said:

I know at least one "FTF monster" (as you would call him ) in my home area who does exactly that.

Understandable if you still have 50/100 or more kms still to drive. Some do appear to drive a long way for their FTFs.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Cache maggots who are destroying things for lolz tend to get bored relatively quickly. 

 

The eco radicals were more of a problem in the first decade of geocaching than the last decade, or so it seems.

 

I agree the second person described by the OP sounds necrotic.

[+barefootguru]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:53 AM, arisoft said:

 

The others are not going to find the cache at all if not getting FTF?

 

If FTF isn’t available we’ll often save them for a streak / souvenir / dot day / etc.  Or wait until we’re in the area rather than make a special trip out.

[+GeoElmo6000]

The biggest troll I've encountered while geocaching is the big one up the hill from Geocaching HQ in the Fremont section of Seattle.

[+Max and 99]

1 hour ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

The biggest troll I've encountered while geocaching is the big one up the hill from Geocaching HQ in the Fremont section of Seattle.

He's a great example!

[+Goldenwattle]

4 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

The biggest troll I've encountered while geocaching is the big one up the hill from Geocaching HQ in the Fremont section of Seattle.

Are you talking about this, or a person?

[+bflentje]

On 4/26/2023 at 2:49 PM, TriciaG said:

It's his right to find caches first. It's his right to not log it online. There are no rules or guidelines against it. There is no law that says a find must be logged online.

Pedantically, those who log it first online aren't the FTF, if their name isn't first in the log. But since FTF is a side game without HQ policing, they can claim FTF online if they want to.

Personally, I wouldn't let the guy get under my skin.

 

THIS.

 

And I suspect the claims that the individual was getting nasty probably had something to do with those that weren't first shooting their mouths off.

 

[+geodarts]

I have never used FTF in an online log so my log won’t change one way or the other — and although I will post a log as soon as it is practicable it may involve photo editing or thinking about what want to write.  If the location is exceptional a log might encompass a stream of consciousness or further information that I found about the area.  In many cases, the log takes longer than the find.  

 

With that said, there are times when I have delayed logging online because someone signed the log first.  That might get more complicated if someone does not post online, but it is not insurmountable.