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Option to exclude lab caches from number of founds


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Every stage in lab cache counts as a found. This is actually problematic from plenty of reasons:

- Effortless. Comparing to other cache types it costs almost no effort to score a found. Most of lab cache are simple questions to answer.

- Unfair. You don't have points for every stage in other cache types. Also you don't need to log anything, do research, fulfil tasks, etc.

- Inhomogeneous. Has nothing to do with geocaching, except you're outdoors. Even earthcaches and virtual caches requires you to learn something, to research something, do some tasks. Lab caches? Nothing, simple question answering.

- Cheating. People builds databases with answers and using fake gps to earn cheap points.

 

And some more. Simply this is not a geocaching, it's an own game. And while I am enjoying doing lab caches I really dislike idea adding them to my total found statistics.

Please, reconsider it, do a compromise and allow to filter out lab caches from statistics for people who just don't want them to be added. So anybody who looks at my profile would see only cache founds without lab caches included. And please do not argue that I can delete them. I do not want to delete them, I just don't want them to be included in total found. This is a valid use case for lots of people. Many people either stopped doing lab caches, or even worse stopped playing geocaching. Please don't let this happen.

Edited by Terezkovci
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Can we also make it so that lamp post caches and guardrail caches and sign post caches don't count as a find?  They are so easy and require no effort.  They really aren't geocaching, and you are barely outdoors for the 30 seconds it takes to jump out of the car and retrieve the micro with the soggy log while dodging the bees.

 

Oh, I forgot.  I drive right past those caches on most days.  I suppose that, if one does not like Adventure Labs, they can drive past those.  I like to stop for them, because I learn about history, art, architecture, culture and other subjects by making the stops and answering the questions.  That takes me more time than a lamp post micro.

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29 minutes ago, The Leprechauns said:

Can we also make it so that lamp post caches and guardrail caches and sign post caches don't count as a find?  They are so easy and require no effort.  They really aren't geocaching, and you are barely outdoors for the 30 seconds it takes to jump out of the car and retrieve the micro with the soggy log while dodging the bees.

 

Oh, I forgot.  I drive right past those caches on most days.  I suppose that, if one does not like Adventure Labs, they can drive past those.  I like to stop for them, because I learn about history, art, architecture, culture and other subjects by making the stops and answering the questions.  That takes me more time than a lamp post micro.

They have to be at least 161 metres apart. I have done stages of ALs which were about 15 metres apart.

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2 hours ago, Terezkovci said:

And please do not argue that I can delete them. I do not want to delete them, I just don't want them to be included in total found.

 

"Deleting" them doesn't actually delete them, it just hides them from your profile and statistics. Now that the Science of Discovery promotion has ended, I've just gone through and deleted all the AL stages I'd done during it, but those finds are still shown in the app and I can still see a list of the ALs I've done at https://labs.geocaching.com/logs . At the bottom of that page there's a Show Deleted Logs link that will restore them all if you change your mind.

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Can we also make it so that lamp post caches and guardrail caches and sign post caches don't count as a find?  They are so easy and require no effort.

As responded by Goldenwattle, they don't need to be 161 metres apart. And you still need to find them, open them, log them, return them. And make sure no one sees you. You may deal with the condition of the cache, etc. It's really not the same with lab caches. Lab caches can be literally few metres apart and you don't need to touch anything. In my city there are hundreds of them in just small area. Tempo how you can gather founds is dramatically higher.

 

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"Deleting" them doesn't actually delete them, it just hides them from your profile and statistics. Now that the Science of Discovery promotion has ended, I've just gone through and deleted all the AL stages I'd done during it, but those finds are still shown in the app and I can still see a list of the ALs I've done at https://labs.geocaching.com/logs . At the bottom of that page there's a Show Deleted Logs link that will restore them all if you change your mind.

Does this revert also the time stamp when I fulfilled them? Are my reviews restored as well? The "Delete" button just sounds too scary. But it's true that what you described looks exactly what I'd like to achieve. Just that Delete button sounds dangerous. Delete usually means removed forever. Maybe that's just bad UX and could be just labeled "Exclude"/"Include" instead of "Delete"/"Revert".

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1 hour ago, Goldenwattle said:

They have to be at least 161 metres apart. I have done stages of ALs which were about 15 metres apart.

None of the Adventures I've completed have had stages 15 metres apart.  That sounds like the equivalent of a roadside power trail of geocaches at sign posts.  So, just like a roadside sign post cache counts the same as a cache requiring a five-mile hike, an Adventure spaced closely apart counts the same as an Adventure that takes me to five different historic spots in a small town I'd never visited.

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30 minutes ago, The Leprechauns said:

That sounds like the equivalent of a roadside power trail of geocaches at sign posts.

It's not an equivalent, nor close to it. I already explained that Lab Caches points can be super close next to each other. See this map of Bratislava where I enabled few Lab series:Bratislava-Lab-Caches.thumb.jpg.09017cb3e97f48dc8e92f96bf9c6f3ed.jpg

 

And now see that some points which are considered founds are less than 15m from each other (here just 13,5):

Found-points.thumb.jpg.c85df1f29e84b189fe2bbd6657a6281b.jpg

This is something which cannot happen for any other cache. You cannot even have physical stages so close for other cache types. So please let's stop comparing them to other caches. You can literally go to city center of a bigger city and score easily hundreds of points.

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1 hour ago, Terezkovci said:

This is something which cannot happen for any other cache. You cannot even have physical stages so close for other cache types.

Stages of a multi can be as close as the owner wants: 13.5m, 1m, 6 cm.

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6 hours ago, Terezkovci said:

- Effortless. Comparing to other cache types it costs almost no effort to score a found. Most of lab cache are simple questions to answer.

 

Just to answer one of you complains, but in general, my respond applies to much everything you said:

 

Yes, some Lab-Cache requires very little effort, yes, some questions are very easy, yes, some stages are very close to each other, a.s.o.

But the Lab-Cache was created by one of the AL owners, so please don't blame the Lab-Cache, it is time to see what's actually going on.  The AL owner are the one who are not able to create nice, interesting, demanding stages and questions, they are the one who are placing stages right next to each other.

 

So if you are not happy with Als, in fact, you are not happy with the AL owners.  Maybe it's time to identify the real problem.

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23 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

So if you are not happy with Als, in fact, you are not happy with the AL owners

Please notice that I never complained about lab caches nor their owners. I actually love doing lab caches. I am doing more of lab caches than other caches recently. I'd like to just have a way to exclude them from my founds as they are highly inflating the stats. That's all I wanted to have. The way how they violate several rules of geocaching - which I already mentioned several times - allows you to get huge number of founds within small amount of time and effort. Lab caches founds = inflation of founds. I think it's a relevant request.

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2 hours ago, Terezkovci said:

 I'd like to just have a way to exclude them from my founds as they are highly inflating the stats. That's all I wanted to have. 

Currently your only option is to delete them. If you change your mind later you can add them back. I can't promise it will never change but it's been like that for a long time. The help center tells you how to do it.

 

Edited by Max and 99
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7 minutes ago, Wacka said:

I found a multi where stage 2 was  about a meter above stage 1.

This was already covered in the thread. See 

 

20 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Currently your only option is to delete them. If you change your mind later you can add them back. I can't promise it will never change but it's been like that for a long time. The help center tells you how to do it.

I see, thank you, will consider this. However uncertainty it stays like that is kind of discouraging.

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2 hours ago, Terezkovci said:

I actually love doing lab caches. I am doing more of lab caches than other caches recently. I'd like to just have a way to exclude them from my founds

 

Just get another account and use this one to play AL.  This way you have the fun of playing Als and they will not increase you current found statistic.

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1 hour ago, Mausebiber said:

 

Just get another account and use this one to play AL.  This way you have the fun of playing Als and they will not increase you current found statistic.

Great idea!

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9 hours ago, The Leprechauns said:

None of the Adventures I've completed have had stages 15 metres apart.  That sounds like the equivalent of a roadside power trail of geocaches at sign posts.  So, just like a roadside sign post cache counts the same as a cache requiring a five-mile hike, an Adventure spaced closely apart counts the same as an Adventure that takes me to five different historic spots in a small town I'd never visited.

Not the equivalent of a "roadside sign post cache count", as they are 161 metres apart and that takes time to walk or cycle between them. Not just take a few steps and answer the next very easy question.

I have done ALs which are spread out, but there is no restriction on distance on them, and so they can be the equivalent of a multicache having WPs lined up close together only a few metres apart, except that for the multicache you only get one smilie, while the AL you get five with very little effort. If ALs only had one smilie I couldn't care less if they could be completed in a very short time. It's the cheap five smilies that's the problem.

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1 minute ago, Goldenwattle said:

Not the equivalent of a "roadside sign post cache count", as they are 161 metres apart and that takes time to walk or cycle between them. Not just take a few steps and answer the next very easy question.

 

Just like I've never found an Adventure with stages set 15 metres apart, apparently you've never found a power trail.  It is very, very easy to find five traditional caches in less than 3 minutes, and I got five smilies for doing that.  If I find an Adventure that takes 3 minutes, like maybe walking to five statues in a sculpture garden, I get five smilies for doing that.  If I hike five miles in a park and find five caches, I get five smilies for doing that.  The smiley is the great equalizer.  If you're going to start saying that one type of smiley isn't worthy of being a smiley, then I'm going to keep posting about other types of smilies that aren't worthy of being a smiley.  Let's add "power trails" to my list that already included lamp post caches, guardrail caches and sign post caches.

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3 hours ago, The Leprechauns said:

The smiley is the great equalizer.

 

Well no, not for me anyway. I started doing ALs last August when the first one appeared in my region, and since then I've done 23 of them. In a typical caching year I'm likely to find about 150 caches of all types, ranging from easy urban traditionals to longer bushland hikes, plus a fair number of much more involved mysteries and multis. Often it takes me half a day or more just to complete one cache. But those 23 ALs alone created 115 smileys, blowing them way out of proportion to all my other caching activities combined, considering I probably spent less than a tenth of my caching time doing them. I don't pay that much attention to my statistics, but a couple of things I am interested in are my milestones (for which I try to pick particularly interesting and challenging caches) and my year-to-year comparisons. As soon as I saw just how much ALs were going to distort those, I made the decision to "delete" all my AL finds from my caching stats. Most ALs I've done have had a bonus cache, which is enough to represent the caching effort involved in completing the AL, so I'm pretty content with the end result.

Edited by barefootjeff
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1 hour ago, The Leprechauns said:

 

Just like I've never found an Adventure with stages set 15 metres apart, apparently you've never found a power trail.  It is very, very easy to find five traditional caches in less than 3 minutes, and I got five smilies for doing that.  If I find an Adventure that takes 3 minutes, like maybe walking to five statues in a sculpture garden, I get five smilies for doing that.  If I hike five miles in a park and find five caches, I get five smilies for doing that.  The smiley is the great equalizer.  If you're going to start saying that one type of smiley isn't worthy of being a smiley, then I'm going to keep posting about other types of smilies that aren't worthy of being a smiley.  Let's add "power trails" to my list that already included lamp post caches, guardrail caches and sign post caches.

I have found some caches on power trails. Takes me long than that though, to either ride my bike between the caches, or park the car, get out find the cache, sign, re-hide, get back in the car and drive to the next one. They are not necessarily all the same kind of hides either. Not just wander over to the close by sign. There is NO WAY I could find five caches in less than 3 minutes. Don't have lamp post caches here like those in the US. Guards are often further apart then 161 metres, can be kms apart.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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18 hours ago, The Leprechauns said:

The smiley is the great equalizer.

Truth. And what the smiley represents. I'm not a fan of a smiley representing putting a text word into a mobile app.  I'd much prefer my smileys to remain representative of :

1. A signature in a physical logbook (geocache)

2. Effort required for study and discovery (earthcache)

3. Effort required to arrive at and complete a task (virtual)

4. Work required to successfully enter a web cam image frame and capture myself in it (webcam)

5. Attendance of a gathering of geocachers, possibly with a beneficial activity (event/cito)

6. The number of Found It/Webcam Photo Taken/Attended logs posted to geocache listings

(I'm sure I may be missed something)

But hey, that's just me ;)

 

All that said, right now the best option as described is to Delete hide the AL finds from the profile. It'd be nice if hiding from stats would be distinct from hiding them from the public though.

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On 7/12/2021 at 8:24 PM, thebruce0 said:

All that said, right now the best option as described is to Delete hide the AL finds from the profile. It'd be nice if hiding from stats would be distinct from hiding them from the public though.

I would like to delete all my AL finds. Is there a way to delete them in bulk? I have found only very frustrating way of deleting them one by one...  

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14 minutes ago, kikonan said:

I would like to delete all my AL finds. Is there a way to delete them in bulk? I have found only very frustrating way of deleting them one by one...  

 

No, you have to do them one by one.

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On 7/11/2021 at 10:50 AM, Terezkovci said:

Simply this is not a geocaching, it's an own game. And while I am enjoying doing lab caches I really dislike idea adding them to my total found statistics.

 

Please, reconsider it, do a compromise and allow to filter out lab caches from statistics for people who just don't want them to be added. So anybody who looks at my profile would see only cache founds without lab caches included. And please do not argue that I can delete them. I do not want to delete them, I just don't want them to be included in total found. This is a valid use case for lots of people. Many people either stopped doing lab caches, or even worse stopped playing geocaching. Please don't let this happen.

I have done labs that are close to each other - but several which take you on a lovely tour around a town, research is needed and a lot is learned - much more effort required than walking a trail of filmpots hidden at the base of trees every 10th of a mile - just because you don't have to sign a piece of paper does not mean the 'activity' is any less
Does this also mean that the OP does not want to have Webcams, virtuals, locationless (the new ones) and earthcaches included in stats because you do not have to find a 'pot' with them either - what about events - you don't have to finds any caches at all so are these too to be discounted ?

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8 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

I have done labs that are close to each other - but several which take you on a lovely tour around a town, research is needed and a lot is learned - much more effort required than walking a trail of filmpots hidden at the base of trees every 10th of a mile - just because you don't have to sign a piece of paper does not mean the 'activity' is any less
Does this also mean that the OP does not want to have Webcams, virtuals, locationless (the new ones) and earthcaches included in stats because you do not have to find a 'pot' with them either - what about events - you don't have to finds any caches at all so are these too to be discounted ?

 

Everyone's experience will be different. If most of your regular caching is quick finds along trails of filmpots then maybe there isn't much difference between those and an AL stage smiley, but for others there's a world of difference.

 

I did the first of my 23 ALs on the 27th of August last year. In the eleven months since then I've logged finds on 130 regular caches, those being:

  • 82 traditionals
  • 16 mysteries (not including AL bonus caches)
  • 15 AL bonus caches
  • 11 multis
  • 3 virtuals
  • 1 earthcache
  • 1 LBH
  • 1 event

Those finds were spread over 50 caching days, so that's an average of 2.6 caches per outing. Some were fairly easy finds along walking or biking trails, but others were more involved: there were five T5 caches (all kayaking ones), two T4.5s (both long and challenging hikes), one T4, four T3.5s and sixteen T3s, then all the non-bonus mysteries had puzzles to solve, the multis had waypoints to find and field puzzles to solve, and the ECs and virtuals had questions requiring detailed answers to be found and submitted to their owners. Then each of those caches required logs to be written when I got home, most of which run into several paragraphs, plus many had photos to sort through, compose and caption as well.

 

By contrast, the 23 ALs I've done each had 5 stages so they generated 115 smileys, which is substantially higher than any of those other cache types, yet they were completed across just 21 days of ALing. Again there was a mixture, some being short walks around a town centre while others were extended hikes or long drives, but in no way did their combined effort outweigh my other caching activities or come anywhere near it. Those 115 AL smileys were completely out of proportion to all the other cache types and made a mockery of my caching stats, which is why I decided to delete them.

 

All the OP is asking for is the option to not include AL finds in their stats, which you can already do by "deleting" them (which really just hides them) but it's a pretty tedious process as it has to be done one at a time with a confirmation step between each one. A simple checkbox for including them all or not, or even better with a third option to generate just one smiley per completed AL, would make it a whole lot easier and wouldn't upset those filmpot trail cachers for whom an AL stage is like-for-like or the straight-out numbers chasers who want every smiley they can get.

Edited by barefootjeff
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13 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Everyone's experience will be different. If most of your regular caching is quick finds along trails of filmpots then maybe there isn't much difference between those and an AL stage smiley, but for others there's a world of difference.

I finished a multicache today with 17 WPs and a formulae to work out at the end. I drove, walked and cycled on several outings to complete it. One smilie.

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Not all ALs are "effortless" and most have some educational component to them. My AL requires more time and effort than my traditional caches (10 miles of windy roads and about 1-2 hours to complete.) 40/41 players who started the lab have finished it. I guarantee that when players earn those similes they feel like they have had a real adventure and learned some local history. If other ALs are 'effortless', then blame COs who throw together a "fast five" and the players who seek them out.

 

If the Adventures could be downloaded ahead of time, allowing for more rural experiences where cell service is lacking, COs could create more adventurous adventures. I have another AL credit waiting and have scouted several great AL locations I wanted to do, but the spotty cell reception made the location impossible and I'm not willing to create just another urban walking tour.

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On 7/26/2021 at 1:34 AM, barefootjeff said:

All the OP is asking for is the option to not include AL finds in their stats

I understood the point behind the OP - however it is, in doing so, saying that AL do not have a place in geocaching (" Simply this is not a geocaching ") 
My point is that many AL are no different to other aspects of geocaching like the virtuals etc etc in that there is no logbook to sign - and AL are very similar to Multis, or Wherigos in the activity that you have to undertake - I do not see why you would specifically want to discount AL from geocaching stats if you do not consider discounting other types that are virtually similar. 
In essence if you don't want AL to be part of your stats then don't do them 


 

I will add that when i first did ALs I did expect to get only one smilie once I had completed the 5 stages and it did come as a surprise to get 5 smilies - personally I would like to see 1 smilie per the 5 connected labs completed - I think this would also mean many would not consider this issue of AL being separate to the rest of geocaching 

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3 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

My point is that many AL are no different to other aspects of geocaching like the virtuals etc etc in that there is no logbook to sign - and AL are very similar to Multis, or Wherigos in the activity that you have to undertake - I do not see why you would specifically want to discount AL from geocaching stats if you do not consider discounting other types that are virtually similar. 

 

There are other differences. For multis, whereigos, virtuals and ECs, you still have to write an online log before you get your smiley, that can be quite detailed with photos attached and the CO is notified that you've written it, but with an AL the optional activity log is limited to 400 characters and you might as well be writing it to yourself as no-one else is likely to see it. Regular caches have D/T ratings and attributes and can be a much richer experience because they're not constrained by all the limitations of the phone-only ALs. In many respects they really are a separate game.

 

3 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

In essence if you don't want AL to be part of your stats then don't do them

 

The trouble is I want to do ALs, I've enjoyed the ones I've done, but I don't want them dominating my stats totally out of proportion to the amount of my caching time I devote to them. As I posted earlier, I've done 23 ALs and, in the same period of time, 130 regular caches but the smileys from those ALs almost outnumbered those from all the other caches combined. I've solved that by manually "deleting" each stage but it's tedious and the simple checkbox the OP asked for would be much nicer.

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