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Chickilim

My waymark first denied is finally published in the same category after beeing simply copied and pasted !

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Posted (edited)

On December, 14 I posted a waymark in the category "Figurative Public Sculpture" which was the same that I posted on November, 19 and was approved in the category "Artistic Welcom Signs". But it was denied by the leader of the category in these terms:
"Great find, but this would be Silhouette." (Yes, I know that it is not a traditional Silhouette, goal Figurative defines the sculpture to be subtractive, the artist removes media (Ie, clay) is additive with the artist welding the tubes to make the sculpture I did not make the rules - I inherited the Figurative category."
So I posted the waymark in the category "Silhouette Public Art Sculptures"
in which it was approved.

Today the same waymark posted by a friend waymarker who just copied my own photos and my description was accepted by another officer of the category "Figurative Public Sculpture" in which mine had been refused.

My question is simple: How can I recover the paternity of this waymark created in this category with my own photos and my description?

Edited by Chickilim
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turn him in for using your  pictures. I don't know of many categories that don't specify that it must be YOUR picture.

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Chikilim — Did you ever place this waymark and photos into Uncategorized? Or were the photos poached from another approved waymark? 

I would do these things: 

(1) contact the approving officer and tell them what happened. In this case, the photos are very clearly the exact same ones as in your earlier waymark. 

(2) contact the waymarker and have a polite discussion. They may not understand that this is inappropriate.

 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

Chikilim — Did you ever place this waymark and photos into Uncategorized? Or were the photos poached from another approved waymark? 

I would do these things: 

(1) contact the approving officer and tell them what happened. In this case, the photos are very clearly the exact same ones as in your earlier waymark. 

(2) contact the waymarker and have a polite discussion. They may not understand that this is inappropriate.

 

Benchmark Blasterz - No, I have never placed this waymark into Uncategorized. Yes, the photos were poached from another approved waymark :mad:.

(1) I contacted the category leader who had refused my waymark and also the officer who approved the one who was copied and pasted from my two already approved waymarks (WMX2Z6 & WMXAN7), just waiting their response.

(2) I promise you to stay polite in discussion with this f:bad:g waymarker, nevertheless friend, who has already used without permission one of my photos to create one of his waymark. :rolleyes:

Edited by Chickilim
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1 hour ago, Chickilim said:

Benchmark Blasterz - No, I have never placed this waymark into Uncategorized. Yes, the photos were poached from another approved waymark :mad:.

(1) I contacted the category leader who had refused my waymark and also the officer who approved the one who was copied and pasted from my two already approved waymarks (WMX2Z6 & WMXAN7), just waiting their response.

(2) I promise you to stay polite in discussion with this f:bad:g waymarker, nevertheless friend, who has already used without permission one of my photos to create one of his waymark. :rolleyes:

I love you, buddy :). I think this can be resolved in a good way 

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The waymark has been archived.

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Hello, i am the f:bad:g waymarker, and i understand my "nevertheless" friend's frustration, because it happened to me exactly the same thing.

Do you remember this discussion ? My waymark was denied and after a long discussion the same waymark published by mama blasterz was approved (with my pictures but i agreed)

Could we conclude that a waymark can be approved depending on who publish it ?

But to be honest, i have to explain what i did between the declined waymark and my approved waymark.

In the category there is a new requirement :

Quote

NOTE: Recent discussion (2016) has occurred in the Forums regarding the type of Figurative sculptures that are in the vein of this category. The Silhouette Public Art Sculptures category was created after the original creator of the Figurative category (Caverspencer) explained in the Forums that Figurative sculptures were to be (paraphrased)"additive in creation, not subtractive. In other words, to be carved by removing material (for instance, clay) instead of welding metal together." I (Outspoken1) inherited this category from Caverspencer and strive to follow his guidelines of the original Figurative category. I tried to find the original discussion in the Forums that occurred in July-August 2010, but the new Forums only go back to 2012 and the archived Forums end at 2006. There is discussion of this 'additive, not subtractive' requirement in the Silhouette category description which supports this guidance from Caverspencer.

I do not like this kind of requirement, really difficult to understand and taking Waymarking to the wrong way, I 100% approve this post of Elyob about this description :

Quote

Actually, we need category descriptions with less jargon. Descriptions must use straightforward language that can be more easily translated. Basic English vocabulary would always be better. Using less jargon will be a special challenge in those categories which focus on specific areas of interest. This will be an enormous challenge in some arts and culture categories.

Descriptions for new categories should involve waymarkers from different language groups. We did this in the humming stones and fishing ports categories.

My goal is that Waymarking becomes more popular

So i continue my story, as a journalist, i decided to question the source of this new requirement and i sent an email to Caverspencer, with a link to the waymark declined and ask him : If you were still the category's leader, would you approve this waymark and can you explain your point of view about this new requirement apparently one of you wishes.

He replied, that he would approved the waymark and he does not understand what this requirement means. So i plublished my waymark with the reply of Caverspencer and he was approved.

I am not very proud of what i have done, but few wrong behaviours are killing Waymarking like Lumbricus could write... and i agree

When the leader of "Racetracks" category accept Bike race tracks even if it's not in the including list, i like that, smart behaviour.

When the leader of "Spas, Hammams, Mineral Baths and Saunas" category accept "Kneipp Walk Pools", i like that, this guy deserves a medal

When an officer decided to purge a category while a smart rewriting of the description can save frustration and disappointment, i do not like that

When a quality waymark is declined, because it's not in the inclusion or exclusion lists, i do not like that.

We can not complain about Groundspeak if we do not do our best to help Waymarking becoming more popular and more attractive and that does not mean approve low quality waymark.

I archived my waymark, it was just the support of my argument....

 

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A new proof that when the requirements of a category are too complicated, the officers can interpret them differently which leads to situations like this, where the same waymark is approved or denied according to the person who reviews it.

Strongly agree that the description of the category Figurative Public Sculpture is quite indigestible and should be simplified (but is it possible?).

Thank you, fr:laughing:og waymarker, for this well-argued demonstration! :)

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6 hours ago, Alfouine said:

 

When the leader of "Spas, Hammams, Mineral Baths and Saunas" category accept "Kneipp Walk Pools", i like that, this guy deserves a medal

 

I think this guy deserves an additional medal because the category description was actually updated to include the pools.

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I might as well insert my 2 pennies worth here. 

silhouette - noun

a two-dimensional representation of the outline of an object, as a cutout or configurational drawing, uniformly filled in with black, especially a black-paper, miniature cutout of the outlines of a person's face in profile.

From Dictionary.com

I have argued this point with TPTB in the Silhouette Public Art Sculptures category . The definition of silhouette above makes no mention of  "additive" or "subtractive" qualities. It simply defines what a silhouette is. Both figurative, IE three dimensionaland silhouette, IE seemingly two dimensional, sculptures can be created using either additive or subtractive methods. In my view these two terms have nothing whatever to do with the three dimensionality or (apparent) two dimensionality of a created object. Introducing these two terms into the definition of Silhouette Public Art was not, in my view, a bright idea, nor was it correct.

Nowhere can I find a discussion concerning sculpture which defines, or refers to, additive technique as being associated solely with silhouette sculpture and/or subtractive technique as being associated solely with three dimensional sculpture as is stated in the Silhouette Public Art Sculptures description:

"Silhouette is also an additive sculpture technique, whereas Figurative is a subtractive technique."

Keith

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On 1/2/2018 at 6:57 PM, Chickilim said:

On December, 14 I posted a waymark in the category "Figurative Public Sculpture" which was the same that I posted on November, 19 and was approved in the category "Artistic Welcom Signs". But it was denied by the leader of the category in these terms:
"Great find, but this would be Silhouette." (Yes, I know that it is not a traditional Silhouette, goal Figurative defines the sculpture to be subtractive, the artist removes media (Ie, clay) is additive with the artist welding the tubes to make the sculpture I did not make the rules - I inherited the Figurative category."
So I posted the waymark in the category "Silhouette Public Art Sculptures"
in which it was approved.

Today the same waymark posted by a friend waymarker who just copied my own photos and my description was accepted by another officer of the category "Figurative Public Sculpture" in which mine had been refused.

My question is simple: How can I recover the paternity of this waymark created in this category with my own photos and my description?

The exact same thing happened to me, and the officer didn't care.

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11 hours ago, BK-Hunters said:

Nowhere can I find a discussion concerning sculpture which defines, or refers to, additive technique as being associated solely with silhouette sculpture and/or subtractive technique as being associated solely with three dimensional sculpture as is stated in the Silhouette Public Art Sculptures description:

"Silhouette is also an additive sculpture technique, whereas Figurative is a subtractive technique."

Keith

If Figurative is subtractive, then the Statue of Liberty is not figurative. It is a metal structure (additive) covered with panels (additive). Can TPTB claim that statue as non-figurtive?

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I agree this is a figurative statue and not a silhouette, those categories names describe a result and not a creative technique, and we only should take in account the result.

What TPTB means ?

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Posted (edited)

The Powers That Be

...in other words, the people in charge.

Edited by elyob
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13 hours ago, vulture1957 said:

If Figurative is subtractive, then the Statue of Liberty is not figurative. It is a metal structure (additive) covered with panels (additive). Can TPTB claim that statue as non-figurtive?

My point exactly. Thank You!!

Keith

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Usually, a statement can be true or false - or meaningless. This additive/subtractive thing achieves to be false and meaningless at the same time.

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Hello everyone. I have been very busy the past couple of years with deep personal changes in my life and other than reviewing Waymarks, not really posting or viewing the Forums. Alfouine brought this discussion to my attention today. Alfouine and I have been going over this issue in Figurative for the past year. I will again clarify.

I was an Officer in Figurative with Caverspencer as the leader many years ago (all of this occurred in the old forums which I tried to find the discussion about 8-10 months ago and the postings are lost. However, I was there and relating the story. Others included BruceS, SilverQuill and Blue Quasar) Caverspenser was not allowing Silhouette-style sculptures in Figurative and he made the clarification that sculptures for Figurative needed to be subtractive (as in removal of clay from the original form before casting) instead of additive (as in welding things to make the sculpture) and needed to be 3D (not flat). So I proposed and (with the help of others) created the Silhouette category in 2010. Caverspenser later gave me the leadership of the Figurative category and I am adhering to the original rules that were created by the original category leader - Caverspencer (Caverspenser explained he was going to be more involved in other activities and knew that I would continue to be involved with Waymarking). Now move forward eight years and Alfouine seems to want to change the original vision of the Figurative Category developed by Caverspenser. As I understand Waymarking, when someone takes over the leadership of a category because the original/current leader is no longer willing/able to be leader, the only thing that changes is the person who is now the leader. The rules of the category originally developed by the Leader/Officers of the original category and approved by the membership and Groundspeak would overall stay the same. Am I mistaken?

As far as the review of Waymarks - surprise - sometimes we (Leaders and Officers) make errors on approvals or denials. I have no idea how many Waymarks I have had the privilege to review, but I know that I have made mistakes. I have tried to correct them and offered apologies when I have made a mistake. Additionally, sometimes a very small minority of Waymarkers are disingenuous and do not play fair and 'sneak' in Waymarks that reviewers are unaware of not being in the spirit of Waymarking. Several years ago there was a few people who were Waymarking by capturing photos from Google Street View and submitting that photo as a Waymark. So I added the requirement to all my categories that the photos had to be personally taken by the Waymarker or personally visited by the Waymarker (as did many other leaders in Waymarking). I do not believe this is an undue burden. Like any other community, Waymarking is growing and changing with new technology and opportunities.

Chickilim did notify me of the original issue at the start of this discussion and I did respond to him/her that I would contact Math Teacher about the problem, which I did. I try to do my best as a reviewer and leader/officer and in no way meant to offend or cause angst - just follow the rules of Figurative (or any other category where I am a leader/officer) with a goal of inclusion if it meets category requirements. I know that I approve waaaaay more Waymarks than I decline and when I decline, I try to provide suggestions and/or guidance. If a Waymarker continues to not follow category requirements (most common example for me is the Murals category), then declines will follow.

I truly enjoy seeing all of the Waymarks this community submits and appreciate all of the work and pride that many exert when creating a great Waymark. I will continue to be active as a reviewer and, hopefully, be able to start posting in the future. I hope this long post helps to clarify any confusion or consternation that may have been created. Take care, Outspoken1

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P.S. Statue of Liberty was first sculpted in a clay maquette which was the original artists vision that was done in a subtractive manner. The actual engineering of the sculpture which has to withstand winds and other weather was done by structural engineer Eiffel in conjunction with the artist Bartholdi (who sculpted the original maquette and patented the design of the finished product US Patent) in a skeleton and skin method. So if you want to split hairs and miss the vision of Caverspenser's original comments when he and his friends created the category, I am just going to go eat dinner. Take care, Outspoken1

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well, I think I already have a waymark in each of these categories (unless they were disapproved lately), so since I obviously have no clue as to what some dude 10+ years ago had as an idea for the category, and the written rules make no sense to me, I will forego trying to post anything in these categories and save myself a bunch of headache and heartache.

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10 hours ago, vulture1957 said:

well, I think I already have a waymark in each of these categories (unless they were disapproved lately), so since I obviously have no clue as to what some dude 10+ years ago had as an idea for the category, and the written rules make no sense to me, I will forego trying to post anything in these categories and save myself a bunch of headache and heartache.

I have not had any headaches posting in this category, even though the whole additive vs. subtractive thing makes my head spin.  If I see something that looks like an animal or huiman figure (not any specific animal or human), I waymark it here.  I have submitted 30 waymarks here and have had no problems :) 

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For whatever it is worth, I DID NOT create the addditive-subtractive criteria. That was Caverspenser. That is why Silhouette was created. I could go into the hellish details of this issue that happened over 8 years ago, but I don't want to bring up any bad memories of unkind things that occurred, and since I can't retrieve the old Forums, it is just my word. I didn't want the additive-subtractive requirement, but there ya go. Why would I make this up? Made me crazy then, but it was Caverspenser's category and this was the criteria he inferred then later specified when the category was created/approved.

I am lucky enough to live near Loveland, Colorado, where there are companies that cast statues. You can go on a tour (or at least used to be able to) and learn about the journey of an artists sketches, to a maquette commonly made of clay to the full sculpture that then must be created full size so the casting company can make molds to cast the bronze. That is why we Waymarkers often find a 'duplicate' sculpture in another location. The artist often casts a limited series of the sculptures because it is soooo expensive to cast a statue. Often, on the base where the artist signs their work you will see, for example, 3/12 (third casting of 12).

The maquette is doubly important because the casting company will let the artist know if their design is able to be cast without breaking or being out of balance and fall over. Bartholdi, the sculptor of the Statue of Liberty, created many sketches and maquettes working with Eiffel to make a HUGE statue that would not fall over and withstand the weather. That is why her right arm is upright with the torch and her left foot forward and left arm rotated slightly rearward holding the tablet - counter-balance.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Outspoken1 said:

For whatever it is worth

Do whatever you want!

You are the leader of the Figurative Public Sculpture category, Caverspenser is not even an officer. 

BTW: He has not posted a waymark since 2008.

You created the Silhouette category and remain leader, so do whatever you want. 

Chewing on this issue for eight years is long enough and you should do whatever you want with both categories. 

You stated you did not create the addditive-subtractive criteria, so change it. 

I do believe the "current" Waymarking community will support any decision to improve the category and create a description that is understandable in both categories. 

If you really want to do away with the additive-subtractive criteria, than all you need to do is click the edit icon for the category. 

My two cents worth. 

Edited by BK-Hunters
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On 1/5/2018 at 7:23 PM, Outspoken1 said:

As I understand Waymarking, when someone takes over the leadership of a category because the original/current leader is no longer willing/able to be leader, the only thing that changes is the person who is now the leader. The rules of the category originally developed by the Leader/Officers of the original category and approved by the membership and Groundspeak would overall stay the same. Am I mistaken?

Personally, I agree with your approach.  Unfortunately, I think your understanding is mistaken due to what I've seen with Waymarking categories that are hijacked by members of the Waymarking elite.  They're then free to rewrite the category rules to their liking.  When that happened in an original1 category where I'd been an officer since the very beginning of Waymarking, I quit as an officer. 

The only reason I keep my categories active and continue to review and publish waymarks is so that someone else cannot come along and fundamentally alter my original vision for those categories.

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1 hour ago, The Leprechauns said:

Personally, I agree with your approach.  Unfortunately, I think your understanding is mistaken due to what I've seen with Waymarking categories that are hijacked by members of the Waymarking elite.  They're then free to rewrite the category rules to their liking.  When that happened in an original1 category where I'd been an officer since the very beginning of Waymarking, I quit as an officer. 

The only reason I keep my categories active and continue to review and publish waymarks is so that someone else cannot come along and fundamentally alter my original vision for those categories.

This is a somewhat different situation from what your fears cause you to envision. The requirements in this particular category, Silhouette Public Art Sculptures were based, in part, on a patently incorrect assertion. All that the community is hoping for is the removal of one sentence and one phrase, each containing that incorrect assertion:

"Silhouette is also an additive sculpture technique, whereas Figurative is a subtractive technique."

"or was created additive instead of subtractively"

Without that sentence and that phrase all else is perfectly legitimate, perfectly clear and perfectly acceptable to me, and I hope, to the rest of the community as well.

Keith

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5 hours ago, The Leprechauns said:

Personally, I agree with your approach.  Unfortunately, I think your understanding is mistaken due to what I've seen with Waymarking categories that are hijacked by members of the Waymarking elite.  They're then free to rewrite the category rules to their liking.  When that happened in an original1 category where I'd been an officer since the very beginning of Waymarking, I quit as an officer. 

The only reason I keep my categories active and continue to review and publish waymarks is so that someone else cannot come along and fundamentally alter my original vision for those categories.

I just want something easy and logical to understand

What i want : "Publish a figurative sculpture in the Figurative Public Sculpture category and publish a silhouette sculpture in the Silhouette Public Art Sculptures category"

Because publish a figurative statue like this one in the silhouette sculpture just because of his art-making process sounds absurd. It is not a silhouette !!!

It's like publish a castle inside the chapel category, because of a weird requirement.

The category description must make sense with its name 

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Disrespectful posts have been hidden and will not be tolerated.

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17 hours ago, The Leprechauns said:

The only reason I keep my categories active and continue to review and publish waymarks is so that someone else cannot come along and fundamentally alter my original vision for those categories.

 

Rouge leadership is the term used for what is happening. I don't believe there are any stops in place that protect our ideas and the categories that we created. When we leave it's open season on our categories, and I am finished supporting a few members here that want to continue playing Waymarking.

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20 hours ago, wayfrog said:

Disrespectful posts have been hidden and will not be tolerated.

All this discussion for this, it was the Caverspencer's reply and unfortunately with two or three disrespectful words, nothing againt someone, but against waymarkers in general.

The moderator could put in bracket direspectful words and leave the post, as it exists in other forum, but he decided to delete all the post :(, as if he had not wanted to understand the interest of this discussion

It was our last change to convice Outspoken1 to change her mind, with the real point of view of Caverspencer about the category he created.

I am very very disappointed....

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On 1/6/2018 at 10:03 AM, Outspoken1 said:

For whatever it is worth, I DID NOT create the addditive-subtractive criteria. That was Caverspenser. That is why Silhouette was created. I could go into the hellish details of this issue that happened over 8 years ago, but I don't want to bring up any bad memories of unkind things that occurred, and since I can't retrieve the old Forums, it is just my word. I didn't want the additive-subtractive requirement, but there ya go. Why would I make this up? Made me crazy then, but it was Caverspenser's category and this was the criteria he inferred then later specified when the category was created/approved.

I am lucky enough to live near Loveland, Colorado, where there are companies that cast statues. You can go on a tour (or at least used to be able to) and learn about the journey of an artists sketches, to a maquette commonly made of clay to the full sculpture that then must be created full size so the casting company can make molds to cast the bronze. That is why we Waymarkers often find a 'duplicate' sculpture in another location. The artist often casts a limited series of the sculptures because it is soooo expensive to cast a statue. Often, on the base where the artist signs their work you will see, for example, 3/12 (third casting of 12).

The maquette is doubly important because the casting company will let the artist know if their design is able to be cast without breaking or being out of balance and fall over. Bartholdi, the sculptor of the Statue of Liberty, created many sketches and maquettes working with Eiffel to make a HUGE statue that would not fall over and withstand the weather. That is why her right arm is upright with the torch and her left foot forward and left arm rotated slightly rearward holding the tablet - counter-balance.

what a crock!   ironically all but two of my waymarks from that category have been archived. Most likely by outspoken one.    I quit Waymarking years ago because of the nonesense of people hijacking groups.   

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36 minutes ago, Alfouine said:

All this discussion for this, it was the Caverspencer's reply and unfortunately with two or three disrespectful words, nothing againt someone, but against waymarkers in general.

The moderator could put in bracket direspectful words and leave the post, as it exists in other forum, but he decided to delete all the post :(, as if he had not wanted to understand the interest of this discussion

It was our last change to convice Outspoken1 to change her mind, with the real point of view of Caverspencer about the category he created.

I am very very disappointed....

This doesn't surprise me.    Reinforces why I left Waymarking.    My post wasnt that disrespectful and not directed at anyone.    Any bets if this one gets deleted or not?

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21 hours ago, Manville Possum said:

 

Rouge leadership is the term used for what is happening. I don't believe there are any stops in place that protect our ideas and the categories that we created. When we leave it's open season on our categories, and I am finished supporting a few members here that want to continue playing Waymarking.

yep!  couldn't agree more

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On 1/5/2018 at 5:31 PM, Outspoken1 said:

P.S. Statue of Liberty was first sculpted in a clay maquette which was the original artists vision that was done in a subtractive manner. The actual engineering of the sculpture which has to withstand winds and other weather was done by structural engineer Eiffel in conjunction with the artist Bartholdi (who sculpted the original maquette and patented the design of the finished product US Patent) in a skeleton and skin method. So if you want to split hairs and miss the vision of Caverspenser's original comments when he and his friends created the category, I am just going to go eat dinner. Take care, Outspoken1

I didnt and dont care how the piece was created.   My main perspective was it needed to figurative not literal.  

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14 minutes ago, caverspencer said:

what a crock!   ironically all but two of my waymarks from that category have been archived. Most likely by outspoken one.    I quit Waymarking years ago because of the nonesense of people hijacking groups.   

Concerning your archived waymarks, can you share some of the waymark codes so we can see some original examples?  Thank you.

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On 1/5/2018 at 5:23 PM, Outspoken1 said:

Hello everyone. I have been very busy the past couple of years with deep personal changes in my life and other than reviewing Waymarks, not really posting or viewing the Forums. Alfouine brought this discussion to my attention today. Alfouine and I have been going over this issue in Figurative for the past year. I will again clarify.

I was an Officer in Figurative with Caverspencer as the leader many years ago (all of this occurred in the old forums which I tried to find the discussion about 8-10 months ago and the postings are lost. However, I was there and relating the story. Others included BruceS, SilverQuill and Blue Quasar) Caverspenser was not allowing Silhouette-style sculptures in Figurative and he made the clarification that sculptures for Figurative needed to be subtractive (as in removal of clay from the original form before casting) instead of additive (as in welding things to make the sculpture) and needed to be 3D (not flat). So I proposed and (with the help of others) created the Silhouette category in 2010. Caverspenser later gave me the leadership of the Figurative category and I am adhering to the original rules that were created by the original category leader - Caverspencer (Caverspenser explained he was going to be more involved in other activities and knew that I would continue to be involved with Waymarking). Now move forward eight years and Alfouine seems to want to change the original vision of the Figurative Category developed by Caverspenser. As I understand Waymarking, when someone takes over the leadership of a category because the original/current leader is no longer willing/able to be leader, the only thing that changes is the person who is now the leader. The rules of the category originally developed by the Leader/Officers of the original category and approved by the membership and Groundspeak would overall stay the same. Am I mistaken?

As far as the review of Waymarks - surprise - sometimes we (Leaders and Officers) make errors on approvals or denials. I have no idea how many Waymarks I have had the privilege to review, but I know that I have made mistakes. I have tried to correct them and offered apologies when I have made a mistake. Additionally, sometimes a very small minority of Waymarkers are disingenuous and do not play fair and 'sneak' in Waymarks that reviewers are unaware of not being in the spirit of Waymarking. Several years ago there was a few people who were Waymarking by capturing photos from Google Street View and submitting that photo as a Waymark. So I added the requirement to all my categories that the photos had to be personally taken by the Waymarker or personally visited by the Waymarker (as did many other leaders in Waymarking). I do not believe this is an undue burden. Like any other community, Waymarking is growing and changing with new technology and opportunities.

Chickilim did notify me of the original issue at the start of this discussion and I did respond to him/her that I would contact Math Teacher about the problem, which I did. I try to do my best as a reviewer and leader/officer and in no way meant to offend or cause angst - just follow the rules of Figurative (or any other category where I am a leader/officer) with a goal of inclusion if it meets category requirements. I know that I approve waaaaay more Waymarks than I decline and when I decline, I try to provide suggestions and/or guidance. If a Waymarker continues to not follow category requirements (most common example for me is the Murals category), then declines will follow.

I truly enjoy seeing all of the Waymarks this community submits and appreciate all of the work and pride that many exert when creating a great Waymark. I will continue to be active as a reviewer and, hopefully, be able to start posting in the future. I hope this long post helps to clarify any confusion or consternation that may have been created. Take care, Outspoken1

Simply not true.   

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51 minutes ago, Alfouine said:

All this discussion for this, it was the Caverspencer's reply and unfortunately with two or three disrespectful words, nothing againt someone, but against waymarkers in general.

The moderator could put in bracket direspectful words and leave the post, as it exists in other forum, but he decided to delete all the post :(, as if he had not wanted to understand the interest of this discussion

It was our last change to convice Outspoken1 to change her mind, with the real point of view of Caverspencer about the category he created.

I am very very disappointed....

The truth hurts so they decided to remove it.    

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I think most of us just want to post a figurative "based on the human or animal figure"  in that category.

A silhouette "only has shape when viewed from one or two angles instead of full dimensional"

These are my interpretations of a silhouette:

 

a forum 1.jpg

a forum 2.jpg

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Hello everyone:

I am very sorry that some Waymarkers feel I have 'hijacked' the Figurative category and now are archiving Waymarks (Sheesh, I don't have time for that). I was following Carverspencer's direction regarding Figurative he gave his Officers in 2010 since he created the category and had that view of the category. When Cavenspenser withdrew from active participation in Waymarking, he put me in charge of the category. I have followed his directions since that was the original intent that the category was created when the membership voted on it and approved the category in 2007. I did not feel it was appropriate to 'change' a category just because the founder had resigned. I was trying to respect the Founder's views and now am being chastised for that continuance. So, I will reread all of this discussion and try to incorporate the view of the members and Caverspenser to best meet everyone's view of Figurative.

Caverspenser has stated above that " My main perspective was it needed to figurative not literal." So are these Figurative? Soldat in Felduniform , The Legend, The Lore, The Law , Bronzepferdes or Panther ? I am not trying to be a smart-a**, but these look literal to me, yet they are obviously Figurative Sculpture. Or how do we define 'literal?' I see 'literal' as primarily realistic, as if the figure were lifelike made into a sculpture. Are there 'better' words / descriptions / definitions? I am assuming additive - subtractive are toxic since this seems to be the gist of the comments.

I would appreciate any guidance / phrases / clarifications to better define what is Figurative and what is not (Yes, try to split the line between Figurative and Abstract!) so I can tweak the category to avoid these issues in the future.

BTW - I truly support Waymarking and, as a Leader/Officer, try to place and accept our hundreds of thousands of finds into categories so that we may all enjoy. Waymarking relies on categories and criteria so Leaders/Officers can clearly review the post of the Waymark into the category upon which the membership and Groundspeak approved. No one tries to deny Waymarks just for the heck of it. Sometimes the submission just does not meet the agreed-upon criteria.

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34 minutes ago, Outspoken1 said:

I would appreciate any guidance / phrases / clarifications to better define what is Figurative and what is not (Yes, try to split the line between Figurative and Abstract!) so I can tweak the category to avoid these issues in the future.

Excellent, Thank you

Elyob wrote better than me what a right definition could be :

On 08/01/2018 at 7:05 PM, elyob said:

Actually, we need category descriptions with less jargon. Descriptions must use straightforward language that can be more easily translated. Basic English vocabulary would always be better. Using less jargon will be a special challenge in those categories which focus on specific areas of interest. This will be an enormous challenge in some arts and culture categories.

Descriptions for new categories should involve waymarkers from different language groups. We did this in the humming stones and fishing ports categories.

And we also have a Wikipedia definition

Quote

Figurative art, sometimes written as figurativism, describes artwork—particularly paintings and sculptures—that is clearly derived from real object sources, and is therefore by definition representational. "Figurative art" is often defined in contrast to abstract art:

Since the arrival of abstract art the term figurative has been used to refer to any form of modern art that retains strong references to the real world.[1]

Painting and sculpture can therefore be divided into the categories of figurative, representational and abstract, although, strictly speaking, abstract art is derived (or abstracted) from a figurative or other natural source. However, "abstract" is sometimes used as a synonym for non-representational art and non-objective art, i.e. art which has no derivation from figures or objects.

Figurative art is not synonymous with figure painting (art that represents the human figure), although human and animal figures are frequent subjects.

I am not the best to find right sentences, but i could say if i understand or not

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20 hours ago, Outspoken1 said:

" My main perspective was it needed to figurative not literal."

I don't think it is a good idea to mess around with this figurative vs. literal definitions. It may have been the original idea of the founder, but it has not been part of the category description. And this is what was voted on in peer review, not the fine print hidden in some forum discussions. In the contrary, the posting instructions contain: "Figurative sculptures may be as close to the real world as [...] to slightly figurative [...] to a more abstracted figurative" and it looks like the whole bandwidth of that has been accepted in the category from the beginning. This aspect should neither play a role in the future.

Additive vs. subtractive is indeed the main problem. The category is about the depicted figure, not the creation process or material. That is an entirely different level, and nobody will ever understand the reason behind this requirement. It it does not go away, it will stay the problem. Even if you can convince the current active waymarkers (and you won't), you will have the same discussion again with new participants next year, and then again in the following year, and again ad infinitum.

The same with silhouette. A silhouette is flat, two-dimensional. Not more and not less, the creation process should not be important, and (did I get that right at all?) allowing additive 3-dimensional objects here instead of in the "subtractive" figurative category is just an absolutely horrible idea.

All in all, the current category description is not bad (except for the last note regarding additive/subtractive), it could be shortened and streamlined a bit with the non-English speaking part of the community in mind, but I see no need for major changes.

BTW: There are categories for abstract sculptures and realistic objects, but I don't see a place for figurative (as in figurative vs. literal) objects, the figurative category is defined only for human and animal sculptures.

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Okay this topic of Figurative and Silhouette were discussed, so here is the dilemma: Which category for this?

5a68c93ccc5a3_A_BlackfootNationSculpture(8).JPG.294c2880662ca4c24ceff49bb41e49fa.JPG          5a68c93b5ebb3_A_BlackfootNationSculpture(6).JPG.7fcd2b0b9743e928e004a20db92a3662.JPG

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16 minutes ago, BK-Hunters said:

Okay this topic of Figurative and Silhouette were discussed, so here is the dilemma: Which category for this?

5a68c93ccc5a3_A_BlackfootNationSculpture(8).JPG.294c2880662ca4c24ceff49bb41e49fa.JPG          5a68c93b5ebb3_A_BlackfootNationSculpture(6).JPG.7fcd2b0b9743e928e004a20db92a3662.JPG

I think figurative AND equestrian, personally. These sculptures are not of specific people, right? And even though the art is made of flat pieces of metal, the overall effect is 3D, so to me they are not silhouettes. 

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44 minutes ago, BK-Hunters said:

Okay this topic of Figurative and Silhouette were discussed, so here is the dilemma: Which category for this?

5a68c93ccc5a3_A_BlackfootNationSculpture(8).JPG.294c2880662ca4c24ceff49bb41e49fa.JPG          5a68c93b5ebb3_A_BlackfootNationSculpture(6).JPG.7fcd2b0b9743e928e004a20db92a3662.JPG

Figurative without any hesitation

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6 hours ago, BK-Hunters said:

Okay this topic of Figurative and Silhouette were discussed, so here is the dilemma: Which category for this?

5a68c93ccc5a3_A_BlackfootNationSculpture(8).JPG.294c2880662ca4c24ceff49bb41e49fa.JPG          5a68c93b5ebb3_A_BlackfootNationSculpture(6).JPG.7fcd2b0b9743e928e004a20db92a3662.JPG

definitely not silhouette. Figurative and/or equestrian.

 

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7 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

I think figurative AND equestrian, personally. These sculptures are not of specific people, right? And even though the art is made of flat pieces of metal, the overall effect is 3D, so to me they are not silhouettes. 

I think the same. But the figurative category does not like cross-postings: "6. If the Waymark can be posted in another category, that is where it belongs first." 

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4 hours ago, fi67 said:

I think the same. But the figurative category does not like cross-postings: "6. If the Waymark can be posted in another category, that is where it belongs first." 

I don’t understand this aversion to cross-postings, but it’s not my category and I am not an officer, so that’s just a voice from the peanut gallery. 

:lol:

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19 hours ago, fi67 said:

I think the same. But the figurative category does not like cross-postings: "6. If the Waymark can be posted in another category, that is where it belongs first." 

This requirement is not efficient, because if BK-Hunters publish "Nin-na-stako - Babb, Montana" in Equestian category in two months, it would be published.... and not deleted from figurative category, it's impossible to control

Edited by Alfouine
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1 hour ago, Alfouine said:

This requirement is not efficient, because if BK-Hunters publish "Nin-na-stako - Babb, Montana" in Equestian category in two months, it would be published.... and not deleted from figurative category, it's impossible to control

Of course, but this is not how it works. It is not your choice, either or. If it can go to another category, it will not be accepted in figurative. They will not accept any equestrians, bears, lions, dinosaurs etc. I do not suppose that all officers always have the complete exception list in mind, but usually it will be denied.

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8 hours ago, fi67 said:

Of course, but this is not how it works. It is not your choice, either or. If it can go to another category, it will not be accepted in figurative. They will not accept any equestrians, bears, lions, dinosaurs etc. I do not suppose that all officers always have the complete exception list in mind, but usually it will be denied.

OK thank you, i understand better this requirement

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