Mission GC Summer Souvenirs

[+on4bam]

Let's say you're on vacation somewhere and grab some caches including an Earth Cache. You log all the other ones but you decided to wait until International Earth Cache Day to log the Earth Cache to get the souvenir. Do you feel this is "wrong" or maybe a less strong word would be unethical? After all you aren't actually signing the log with a date so what does it matter when you actually log the find!

 

Simple answer, I log caches on the date I found them no matter which type they are. I don't care about the souvenirs, I'll get them when I get them or not. My statistics are a reflection of what I found not a goal.

[+NanCycle]

There won't be enough time for people to organise an event between getting the notification and the souvenir date, and relying on there just happening to be enough events already organised isn't going to work.

 

Why not? They relied on there just happening to be caches with enough favorite points and multi caches.

 

1) Events are rarer than caches with lots of FPs or multi-caches. I just did a quick check: from where I live in the suburbs, searching in a 50 mile radius, there are:

• 900 caches with at least 10 FPs
• 380 multicaches
• 2 events being held that weekend

 

While not every souvenir has to be accessible by everyone, Groundspeak's modus operandi in souvenirs lately seems to be in favor of keeping the barrier to earning a souvenir easier rather than harder.

 

2) Also, caches can be manufactured pretty quickly to meet certain conditions ... events have to be scheduled at least two weeks in advance.

 

It wasn't really a serious question--I guess the sarcasm didn't come through. Either of the first two would have required a 30+ mile (each way) trip for me; any currently scheduled Event would be the same, as would any Virtual, Earth Cache or puzzle that currently exists. When the promotion was open for a month or more, I was able to schedule my finds to do multiple caches in one day, usually when I was going to be traveling anyway, but having to make the trips on specified dates that didn't work for me--well, that didn't work for me. This is basically the same reason that I didn't participate in the 31 Days of August, driving 60-80+ miles each day for a month just isn't reasonable.

[+niraD]

Simple answer, I log caches on the date I found them no matter which type they are. I don't care about the souvenirs, I'll get them when I get them or not. My statistics are a reflection of what I found not a goal.

Same here, except that I do care about Souvenirs and various stats. Still, I date the logs on the date I found the cache, or took the webcam photo, or recorded the info from the virtual/EarthCache location, or whatever.

[+Ambrosia]

It looks like we're going on a trip this weekend, so I should be able to get whatever Groundspeak throws at us, after all.

[+NanCycle]

Let me put this question to everybody!

 

Let's say you're on vacation somewhere and grab some caches including an Earth Cache. You log all the other ones but you decided to wait until International Earth Cache Day to log the Earth Cache to get the souvenir. Do you feel this is "wrong" or maybe a less strong word would be unethical? After all you aren't actually signing the log with a date so what does it matter when you actually log the find!

 

Like Linda Richman on Coffee Talk would say......Discuss!

 

Suppose you found 365 caches in one day and waited to log them one on each day for a year so you could have a "streak?"

 

Suppose I log a multi cache that I find next weekend as though I found it last weekend and a cache with 10 FP that I also find next weekend as though I found it on July 30 or 31?

 

They're all lies.

[+on4bam]

Same here, except that I do care about Souvenirs and various stats. Still, I date the logs on the date I found the cache, or took the webcam photo, or recorded the info from the virtual/EarthCache location, or whatever.

 

By not caring I mean I'm not going out of my way to get souvenirs or increase any statistic. We plan our caching days in advance without taking souvenirs or stats into account. If the weather is bad or there's a formula 1 race on TV we don't go out even if our calendar day is not filled yet for instance. It would be easy to just walk a few 100 meters and fill that date but then I would have to go out to find a cache I have no interest in.

If we find an EC Saturday, fine but it doesn't look that way. It will be a short caching day anyway and looking at the weatherforecast we might just do other stuff.

[+T0SHEA]

Hey,

 

Are we here to embarrass someone just because they asked a question or expressed a view?

 

Remember NOT everyone has "your" point of view on how to geocache or collect souvenirs.

 

Besides I have heard of large groups of geocachers that go on power trails with perhaps 350 geocaches or more and have a rubber stamp made with a "team name" and leap frog with as many as five vehicles. All log the cache as found. I doubt that all the geocaches by all the geocachers are logged on the same day they were found.

Edited August 16, 2016 by BK-Hunters

[+niraD]

Same here, except that I do care about Souvenirs and various stats. Still, I date the logs on the date I found the cache, or took the webcam photo, or recorded the info from the virtual/EarthCache location, or whatever.

By not caring I mean I'm not going out of my way to get souvenirs or increase any statistic. We plan our caching days in advance without taking souvenirs or stats into account.

Yeah, that's what I mean by caring too. I filled my "Finds for Each Day of the Year" grid. I maintained a streak for a year and a day. I've found specific caches on specific days because there were Souvenirs available on those days. I've arranged to log specific caches/events for specific milestones. Clearly, I care about such things.

 

But I'm not going to lie about when something happened just to get a Souvenir or to fulfill some stats-based goal.

[+niraD]

Are we here to embarrass someone just because they asked a question or expressed a view?

I'm confused. Whom are we supposedly embarrassing this time?

[+CanadianRockies]

Let's say you're on vacation somewhere and grab some caches including an Earth Cache. You log all the other ones but you decided to wait until International Earth Cache Day to log the Earth Cache to get the souvenir. Do you feel this is "wrong" or maybe a less strong word would be unethical? After all you aren't actually signing the log with a date so what does it matter when you actually log the find!

The point of the souvenir is to go out and find an Earthcache on that day. What is the value of the souvenir if you lied to get it?

 

More importantly, why would you lie to other people? Falsifying the date of your visit can affect other cachers as well as the cache owner because it results in false information on the cache page.

 

And if the cache owner notices what you did, it puts him/her in the awkward position of possibly deleting the log or asking you to correct it.

 

Why would a good geocacher knowingly do something so hurtful to others?

I wouldn't consider it lying or falsifying if you date your EarthCaches on the day you sent the answers to the CO (if that day is after the day you were at the EarthCache site). In order to log an EarthCache as "found," Groundspeak requires that you visit the site AND that you answer the questions. Until you answer the questions, you haven't "found" the EarthCache, so I understand the logic behind dating the "Found It" log as the day you "found" the EarthCache (i.e., on the day you send in the answers, if that's a later date).

 

I also understand why other people (who might be concerned about the accuracy of their cumulative cache-to-cache distance statistics) will always date their EarthCache "Found It" logs on the date they visit the EarthCache site.

 

But I roll my eyes when geocachers selectively date certain EarthCache (or Virtual, Webcam, or Challenge cache) finds to get a souvenir or to help complete a Challenge cache. If they do this, however, then I don't believe Groundspeak would back up cache owners who deleted these "false" logs.

Edited August 16, 2016 by CanadianRockies

[+dprovan]

Let's say you're on vacation somewhere and grab some caches including an Earth Cache. You log all the other ones but you decided to wait until International Earth Cache Day to log the Earth Cache to get the souvenir. Do you feel this is "wrong"...

Yes, obviously it's wrong. That's not the day you visited GZ and performed the tasks. You've dated the log wrong.

 

...or maybe a less strong word would be unethical? After all you aren't actually signing the log with a date so what does it matter when you actually log the find!

No, it's not unethical. It's just dumb. It doesn't matter to me if you make a mistake, but intentionally putting an inaccurate date in your record doesn't help you any, either. Sure, the system will be fooled, but you won't be, so what's the point?

[+cerberus1]

Let's say you're on vacation somewhere and grab some caches including an Earth Cache. You log all the other ones but you decided to wait until International Earth Cache Day to log the Earth Cache to get the souvenir. Do you feel this is "wrong" or maybe a less strong word would be unethical? After all you aren't actually signing the log with a date so what does it matter when you actually log the find!

The system has no idea whether you found an Earthcache the day you logged, or two years before.

Guess I believe that if one has any dignity, they wouldn't want to try to bilk the system.

[+narcissa]

Hey,

 

Are we here to embarrass someone just because they asked a question or expressed a view?

 

Remember NOT everyone has "your" point of view on how to geocache or collect souvenirs.

 

Besides I have heard of large groups of geocachers that go on power trails with perhaps 350 geocaches or more and have a rubber stamp made with a "team name" and leap frog with as many as five vehicles. All log the cache as found. I doubt that all the geocaches by all the geocachers are logged on the same day they were found.

 

Cache owners who publish out those "power trails" expect the loggers to do whatever it is they do. Other "power trail" loggers also expect that. If 350 people tried to claim a find on a geocache that wasn't meant to be treated that way, the cache owner would be quite justified in deleting the fraudulent logs.

 

Falsifying information in a cache log isn't a matter of playing the game a certain way. What sort of person would intentionally deceive a cache owner and other geocachers about the state of a cache? A souvenir earned through deceit may look pretty on your profile that nobody looks at, but is it worth the lies?

 

The thing about deceitful and malicious geocachers is that they quickly earn a reputation for their poor behaviour. A graphic on an online profile that nobody else looks at doesn't seem worth it.

[+Reno8]

Let me put this question to everybody!

 

Let's say you're on vacation somewhere and grab some caches including an Earth Cache. You log all the other ones but you decided to wait until International Earth Cache Day to log the Earth Cache to get the souvenir. Do you feel this is "wrong" or maybe a less strong word would be unethical? After all you aren't actually signing the log with a date so what does it matter when you actually log the find!

 

Like Linda Richman on Coffee Talk would say......Discuss!

 

The point of the souvenir is to go out and find an Earthcache on that day. What is the value of the souvenir if you lied to get it?

 

More importantly, why would you lie to other people? Falsifying the date of your visit can affect other cachers as well as the cache owner because it results in false information on the cache page.

 

And if the cache owner notices what you did, it puts him/her in the awkward position of possibly deleting the log or asking you to correct it.

 

Why would a good geocacher knowingly do something so hurtful to others?

 

As far as the post by narcissa;

 

How would the cache owner of an Earth Cache or Virtual Cache figure out what you did? What if you made an honest mistake and logged it on the wrong date? Or found 100 caches on a vacation trip and just forgot what caches you found on what date.

 

The only thing on the cache page that would be false is the date. The cacher actually did the cache and has pics, answers the questions correctly, etc...I actually don't see how this is "hurtful" to another cacher.

 

I know people that don't log their caches for 6 months or longer for whatever reasons. When they do they use the correct date but it was still 6+ months ago. Are they wrong for doing so?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting! Strong opinions! I agree with everyone; logging a cache the day you found it. I had a conversation with some cachers at the BGB and this topic came up. Most of them were in agreement with everyone's opinion on here but there were a couple people that said what would it really matter. I guess it really only matters to the person doing it. What do I care if someone waited a week to log their cache so they could get a souvenir. It means absolutely nothing to me.

 

I know of people who actually made a sock puppet account, hid some caches under that name then got the FTF on those caches with their "real" geocaching account. Amazing huh? How does this effect me??? It doesn't. I don't [care]! That's on them if they want a FTF that bad. I mean REALLY?

 

I guess it boils down to "TO EACH HIS OWN." Your only lying to yourself! Everybody plays the game differently, who are we to judge!

 

After having the conversation at the BGB with a bunch of cachers I just wanted to get everybody's opinions here.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Keystone
potty language edited.

[+narcissa]

Let me put this question to everybody!

 

Let's say you're on vacation somewhere and grab some caches including an Earth Cache. You log all the other ones but you decided to wait until International Earth Cache Day to log the Earth Cache to get the souvenir. Do you feel this is "wrong" or maybe a less strong word would be unethical? After all you aren't actually signing the log with a date so what does it matter when you actually log the find!

 

Like Linda Richman on Coffee Talk would say......Discuss!

 

The point of the souvenir is to go out and find an Earthcache on that day. What is the value of the souvenir if you lied to get it?

 

More importantly, why would you lie to other people? Falsifying the date of your visit can affect other cachers as well as the cache owner because it results in false information on the cache page.

 

And if the cache owner notices what you did, it puts him/her in the awkward position of possibly deleting the log or asking you to correct it.

 

Why would a good geocacher knowingly do something so hurtful to others?

 

As far as the post by narcissa;

 

How would the cache owner of an Earth Cache or Virtual Cache figure out what you did? What if you made an honest mistake and logged it on the wrong date? Or found 100 caches on a vacation trip and just forgot what caches you found on what date.

 

The only thing on the cache page that would be false is the date. The cacher actually did the cache and has pics, answers the questions correctly, etc...I actually don't see how this is "hurtful" to another cacher.

 

I know people that don't log their caches for 6 months or longer for whatever reasons. When they do they use the correct date but it was still 6+ months ago. Are they wrong for doing so?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting! Strong opinions! I agree with everyone; logging a cache the day you found it. I had a conversation with some cachers at the BGB and this topic came up. Most of them were in agreement with everyone's opinion on here but there were a couple people that said what would it really matter. I guess it really only matters to the person doing it. What do I care if someone waited a week to log their cache so they could get a souvenir. It means absolutely nothing to me.

 

I know of people who actually made a sock puppet account, hid some caches under that name then got the FTF on those caches with their "real" geocaching account. Amazing huh? How does this effect me??? It doesn't. I don't [care]! That's on them if they want a FTF that bad. I mean REALLY?

 

I guess it boils down to "TO EACH HIS OWN." Your only lying to yourself! Everybody plays the game differently, who are we to judge!

 

After having the conversation at the BGB with a bunch of cachers I just wanted to get everybody's opinions here.

 

No, it isn't "to each her own." Geocaching is a user-driven system that relies on honest reporting from participants. Users who lie cause damage to the game.

 

There are many topics being conflated here.

 

Logging late, with accurate dates, is not at issue here. A log can be submitted at any time after the cache is found. That has nothing to do with the honesty of its content.

 

You may get away with writing fraudulent, mis-dated logs, but you might not. Why do something deliberately misleading to other geocachers? Why put a cache owner in the uncomfortable position of dealing with a discrepancy?

 

People make genuine errors. Genuine errors have nothing to do with pre-medidated falsification of cache logs.

 

Cachers and cache owners look at logs to better understand the placement of a cache and the conditions around it. Conditions can vary and they can change. When you deliberately write lies on the cache page, you are misleading people looking there for honest information.

 

Again, this kind of behaviour catches up with people. You will gain a reputation for being deceitful. Is a souvenir worth it?

Edited August 17, 2016 by Keystone
potty language in quoted post

[+Reno8]

True! In my opinion a souvenir is not worth it! I agree with everything you said but how is logging a cache a week late "on purpose" misleading to "OTHER" geocachers? If you log an Earth Cache (not a traditional, multi, puzzle...etc) a week late how am I mislead?

 

What does this mean?

 

"When you deliberately write lies on the cache page, you are misleading people looking there for honest information"

[+kunarion]

Let's say you're on vacation somewhere and grab some caches including an Earth Cache. You log all the other ones but you decided to wait until International Earth Cache Day to log the Earth Cache to get the souvenir. Do you feel this is "wrong" or maybe a less strong word would be unethical? After all you aren't actually signing the log with a date so what does it matter when you actually log the find!

In this situation, I refer to my wrist band which has the inscription "WWPD?". It stands for "What Would Pokémon Do?", where in the most popular App game on the planet, without exception, you log your find on the day you find it, and fiddling with stats can get a PGO player banned for life. Not only does every player approve, but there are threads around this very Forum on how to be more like that game.

[+Reno8]

Let's say you're on vacation somewhere and grab some caches including an Earth Cache. You log all the other ones but you decided to wait until International Earth Cache Day to log the Earth Cache to get the souvenir. Do you feel this is "wrong" or maybe a less strong word would be unethical? After all you aren't actually signing the log with a date so what does it matter when you actually log the find!

In this situation, I refer to my wrist band which has the inscription "WWPD?". It stands for "What Would Pokémon Do?", where in the most popular App game on the planet, without exception, you log your find on the day you find it, and fiddling with stats can get a PGO player banned for life. Not only does every player approve, but there are threads around this very Forum on how to be more like that game.

 

I've read through those threads but have no desire to play PGO. I like to deal with the things that are tangible. Maybe Groundspeak can incorporate some of the aspects of PGO into geocaching but I doubt they ever will.

[+cerberus1]

I know of people who actually made a sock puppet account, hid some caches under that name then got the FTF on those caches with their "real" geocaching account. Amazing huh? How does this effect me??? It doesn't.

We know of a large group who place many caches under a team account.

I never had any issues with any of them, friendly (but not friends), and we've chatted at events.

 

One day I did a series under that team account, and found most of their names in the middle of the cache log (I was 1st or 2nd to find).

 

Does this affect me? No ... well ... kinda.

I'll remain civil, probably even do a couple more caches, but I sure won't see them the same way again...

[+narcissa]

True! In my opinion a souvenir is not worth it! I agree with everything you said but how is logging a cache a week late "on purpose" misleading to "OTHER" geocachers? If you log an Earth Cache (not a traditional, multi, puzzle...etc) a week late how am I mislead?

 

What does this mean?

 

"When you deliberately write lies on the cache page, you are misleading people looking there for honest information"

 

You don't earn a souvenir for the date you write the log. You earn a souvenir for the date you claim you found it.

 

If you found it on on July 1 and write the log July 8, you are still supposed to set the date on the log to July 1. It doesn't matter when you write the log. The date you assign to the log is what matters.

 

If you found it on July, write the log on July 8 and set the date in the log to July 8 in order to earn a souvenir, you are deliberately putting false information on the cache page. If it is done intentionally, it is deceitful.

 

Dates can be important to the cache owner and fellow geocachers for many reasons. Land owners or land managers may look at the logs to ensure a cache is only being accessed at particular times. If something happens at the site to make it inaccessible somehow, the logs may be helpful in determining when. In verifying the validity of your Earthcache log, a cache owner may look at your other finds and wonder why you found every other cache nearby on a totally different day.

[+narcissa]

I know of people who actually made a sock puppet account, hid some caches under that name then got the FTF on those caches with their "real" geocaching account. Amazing huh? How does this effect me??? It doesn't.

We know of a large group who place many caches under a team account.

I never had any issues with any of them, friendly (but not friends), and we've chatted at events.

 

One day I did a series under that team account, and found most of their names in the middle of the cache log (I was 1st or 2nd to find).

 

Does this affect me? No ... well ... kinda.

I'll remain civil, probably even do a couple more caches, but I sure won't see them the same way again...

 

This is a different issue. There is no way to actually share ownership of a cache, so logging a find on a jointly owned cache is common. Without doing that, the cache just shows up on the map as an unfound cache and it isn't reasonable to expect someone to ignore a cache they helped to create.

 

It is best practice to be clear in the log about what is happening, i.e. if the log is written without a new visit to the site, indicate that. It may be wise to avoid logging joint ownership right away when it is published because people who play certain side games get dramatic about it.

[+T0SHEA]

I suppose I am naive, did not realize there are 101 ways to lie, deceive, cheat, connive, manipulate, bamboozle...in geocaching.

[+on4bam]

I suppose I am naive, did not realize there are 101 ways to lie, deceive, cheat, connive, manipulate, bamboozle...in geocaching.

 

Yep, cheaters can be inventive, especially in finding arguments to explain why what they do isn't cheating

[+NYPaddleCacher]

The thing about deceitful and malicious geocachers is that they quickly earn a reputation for their poor behavior.

 

And more than that, when deceit and a lack of integrity in how some play the game is condoned, that reflects badly on the game of geocaching when the perception is that it's a game played by people that lack integrity. As someone that calls themself a geocacher, that reflects bad on me.

 

 

[cezanne]

 

If you found it on July, write the log on July 8 and set the date in the log to July 8 in order to earn a souvenir, you are deliberately putting false information on the cache page. If it is done intentionally, it is deceitful.

 

Dates can be important to the cache owner and fellow geocachers for many reasons. Land owners or land managers may look at the logs to ensure a cache is only being accessed at particular times. If something happens at the site to make it inaccessible somehow, the logs may be helpful in determining when. In verifying the validity of your Earthcache log, a cache owner may look at your other finds and wonder why you found every other cache nearby on a totally different day.

 

Not necessarily as the log just as well can mention that someone visited the EC site on July 1 and answered the questions on July 8. Given the fact that ECs are not really found and that are is no rule on gc.com how to deal with ECs, both ways of using July 1 and July 8 as date seem ok to me and your concerns become irrelevant when the log tells the full story.

 

There are some ECs I visited where all the work and all the effort had to be done at my home and not the cache site. While I chose the date my visit to the location, I do not think that this choice as any more correct than using the date when one did the answering work.

Edited August 17, 2016 by cezanne

[+narcissa]

 

If you found it on July, write the log on July 8 and set the date in the log to July 8 in order to earn a souvenir, you are deliberately putting false information on the cache page. If it is done intentionally, it is deceitful.

 

Dates can be important to the cache owner and fellow geocachers for many reasons. Land owners or land managers may look at the logs to ensure a cache is only being accessed at particular times. If something happens at the site to make it inaccessible somehow, the logs may be helpful in determining when. In verifying the validity of your Earthcache log, a cache owner may look at your other finds and wonder why you found every other cache nearby on a totally different day.

 

Not necessarily as the log just as well can mention that someone visited the EC site on July 1 and answered the questions on July 8. Given the fact that ECs are not really found and that are is no rule on gc.com how to deal with ECs, both ways of using July 1 and July 8 as date seem ok to me and your concerns become irrelevant when the log tells the full story.

 

There are some ECs I visited where all the work and all the effort had to be done at my home and not the cache site. While I chose the date my visit to the location, I do not think that this choice as any more correct than using the date when one did the answering work.

 

Well, if that explanation helps you justify fudging the dates to get a souvenir, by all means do what you feel you must.

[+narcissa]

I suppose I am naive, did not realize there are 101 ways to lie, deceive, cheat, connive, manipulate, bamboozle...in geocaching.

 

Yep, cheaters can be inventive, especially in finding arguments to explain why what they do isn't cheating

 

I won't even call it cheating because there is no advantage to be gained by acting that way. It's just hurtful for no actual benefit. You can't win at geocaching.

[+hzoi]

True! In my opinion a souvenir is not worth it! I agree with everything you said but how is logging a cache a week late "on purpose" misleading to "OTHER" geocachers? If you log an Earth Cache (not a traditional, multi, puzzle...etc) a week late how am I mislead?

 

What does this mean?

 

"When you deliberately write lies on the cache page, you are misleading people looking there for honest information"

 

I think this example would apply.

 

Just because an earthcache or virtual cache has no container or log does not mean they are always available. I had to disable one of my earthcaches for six months because of construction in the area. If someone fake-dated their log within the date that it was unavailable, another cacher might rely on that found it log to think that the area was not in fact closed and try to stop by. Then they come to the area and see the locked gate -- they relied on a false log that they assumed to be honest, to their detriment.

[cezanne]

Not necessarily as the log just as well can mention that someone visited the EC site on July 1 and answered the questions on July 8. Given the fact that ECs are not really found and that are is no rule on gc.com how to deal with ECs, both ways of using July 1 and July 8 as date seem ok to me and your concerns become irrelevant when the log tells the full story.

 

There are some ECs I visited where all the work and all the effort had to be done at my home and not the cache site. While I chose the date my visit to the location, I do not think that this choice as any more correct than using the date when one did the answering work.

 

Well, if that explanation helps you justify fudging the dates to get a souvenir, by all means do what you feel you must.

 

I do not care about souvenirs at all and I wrote that I choose the date of my visit to the location for Ecs, but that I do not regard this as any more logical or any more correct than choosing the date when completing the EC tasks (which might happen weeks or even months later).

Edited August 17, 2016 by cezanne

[+T0SHEA]

I suppose I am naive, did not realize there are 101 ways to lie, deceive, cheat, connive, manipulate, bamboozle...in geocaching.

 

Yep, cheaters can be inventive, especially in finding arguments to explain why what they do isn't cheating

 

I won't even call it cheating because there is no advantage to be gained by acting that way. It's just hurtful for no actual benefit. You can't win at geocaching.

 

In some cases the advantage is a souvenir, fill a day on the grid and so on...

[+Reno8]

True! In my opinion a souvenir is not worth it! I agree with everything you said but how is logging a cache a week late "on purpose" misleading to "OTHER" geocachers? If you log an Earth Cache (not a traditional, multi, puzzle...etc) a week late how am I mislead?

 

What does this mean?

 

"When you deliberately write lies on the cache page, you are misleading people looking there for honest information"

 

I think this example would apply.

 

Just because an earthcache or virtual cache has no container or log does not mean they are always available. I had to disable one of my earthcaches for six months because of construction in the area. If someone fake-dated their log within the date that it was unavailable, another cacher might rely on that found it log to think that the area was not in fact closed and try to stop by. Then they come to the area and see the locked gate -- they relied on a false log that they assumed to be honest, to their detriment.

 

TRUE! That would be misleading

[+Reno8]

The thing about deceitful and malicious geocachers is that they quickly earn a reputation for their poor behavior.

 

And more than that, when deceit and a lack of integrity in how some play the game is condoned, that reflects badly on the game of geocaching when the perception is that it's a game played by people that lack integrity. As someone that calls themself a geocacher, that reflects bad on me.

 

I think people are smarter than that. There are so called "bad apples" in everything. Do you really think every single geocacher plays the game with integrity? To think that would make you extremely naive. Are there bad cops, yes, do people cheat at cards, yes but I don't think every cop is bad or every card player cheats, etc...

[+thebruce0]

I wouldn't consider it lying or falsifying if you date your EarthCaches on the day you sent the answers to the CO (if that day is after the day you were at the EarthCache site). In order to log an EarthCache as "found," Groundspeak requires that you visit the site AND that you answer the questions. Until you answer the questions, you haven't "found" the EarthCache, so I understand the logic behind dating the "Found It" log as the day you "found" the EarthCache (i.e., on the day you send in the answers, if that's a later date).

This.

 

Just because an earthcache or virtual cache has no container or log does not mean they are always available. I had to disable one of my earthcaches for six months because of construction in the area. If someone fake-dated their log within the date that it was unavailable, another cacher might rely on that found it log to think that the area was not in fact closed and try to stop by. Then they come to the area and see the locked gate -- they relied on a false log that they assumed to be honest, to their detriment.

This sort of issue arises with Challenge Caches as well. one can physical find the cache on July 1 (like visiting the EC site), but only qualify for it on July 8 (like sending in the answers for the EC), thus log it Found on July 8. Both are allowed processes for the cache type. In these cases, half the work for the "Find" was done when the physical location was available and visited, but the Found log may be posted on a date when the physical location is inaccessible, but it's still valid because the rest of the requirement was fulfilled on that date.

 

When I read Challenge Cache log history (especially very difficulty ones where it takes a long time for people to qualify but is a very easy find), I treat Find logs differently - they're no longer exclusively implying physical findability on the date. I don't rely on the find log as an indication if I physically locate the cache today. I'd need to read the log contents to find the most recent physical Find. (or access to the Earthcache)

 

When it comes to souvenirs, I suppose it's really up to the cacher to decide whether they want to date the EC log for the day they visited GZ, or the day they sent in the answers, if the souvenir date is one and not the other. I'm not going to be bothered by that, since as I browse the history I know the Find log date in the history is less precise.

 

eg, what if you visit the EC on souvenir date, and send in answers the next day? Do you log it found on souvenir day (physical visit) or answers day? It's a "vote your conscience" thing, and imo neither is right or wrong.

Edited August 17, 2016 by thebruce0

[+Reno8]

As far as logging an Earth or a Virtual cache on a different day as the rest of the caches you found in the area that day.

 

If I'm on vacation with my family I usually only go for P & G's, Earth or Virtuals if my family is with me. My wife had major surgery and can't hike anymore. I will go for a hike by myself and grab those and save the Earth and Virtuals for a time when she is with me provided they are close to parking. I may find 20 caches that require hiking on "Friday" and stop for an Earth or Virtual cache on "Saturday" because my wife was with me that day even though the caches are not that far apart. Then what if there is a souvenir offered on that Saturday? It may look like I "pampered" my finds to get a souvenir. I actually don't care what people think but some may feel I did because that's the way it looked.

 

In my experience things are almost never the way they appear.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Reno8

[+cerberus1]

I know of people who actually made a sock puppet account, hid some caches under that name then got the FTF on those caches with their "real" geocaching account. Amazing huh? How does this effect me??? It doesn't.

We know of a large group who place many caches under a team account.

I never had any issues with any of them, friendly (but not friends), and we've chatted at events.

 

One day I did a series under that team account, and found most of their names in the middle of the cache log (I was 1st or 2nd to find).

 

Does this affect me? No ... well ... kinda.

I'll remain civil, probably even do a couple more caches, but I sure won't see them the same way again...

 

This is a different issue. There is no way to actually share ownership of a cache, so logging a find on a jointly owned cache is common. Without doing that, the cache just shows up on the map as an unfound cache and it isn't reasonable to expect someone to ignore a cache they helped to create.

 

It is best practice to be clear in the log about what is happening, i.e. if the log is written without a new visit to the site, indicate that. It may be wise to avoid logging joint ownership right away when it is published because people who play certain side games get dramatic about it.

I didn't see a difference, the reason I shared, so curious...

Are you actually saying that it's (as you say...) "common" for a team member to pre-log all the other members names on the cache's log when placed?

[+narcissa]

I know of people who actually made a sock puppet account, hid some caches under that name then got the FTF on those caches with their "real" geocaching account. Amazing huh? How does this effect me??? It doesn't.

We know of a large group who place many caches under a team account.

I never had any issues with any of them, friendly (but not friends), and we've chatted at events.

 

One day I did a series under that team account, and found most of their names in the middle of the cache log (I was 1st or 2nd to find).

 

Does this affect me? No ... well ... kinda.

I'll remain civil, probably even do a couple more caches, but I sure won't see them the same way again...

 

This is a different issue. There is no way to actually share ownership of a cache, so logging a find on a jointly owned cache is common. Without doing that, the cache just shows up on the map as an unfound cache and it isn't reasonable to expect someone to ignore a cache they helped to create.

 

It is best practice to be clear in the log about what is happening, i.e. if the log is written without a new visit to the site, indicate that. It may be wise to avoid logging joint ownership right away when it is published because people who play certain side games get dramatic about it.

I didn't see a difference, the reason I shared, so curious...

Are you actually saying that it's (as you say...) "common" for a team member to pre-log all the other members names on the cache's log when placed?

 

I don't know about pre-logging on the actual paper log because I don't really scrutinize other people's logbooks very much, but it seems common for geocachers to logs a find when they place caches as partners or a team. Only one person in the team has actual ownership of the cache. Logging the cache as a find gives them a sense of "credit" for helping with the placement and maintenance of the cache.

 

I don't really see why it would be a problem to write out all of the team member's names in the log, but if they're pre-logging and claiming FTF, then I can understand why that would cause annoyance to others who play that side game.

 

The online log is of greater concern. I would hope that their logs clearly indicate that they are logging the find as a joint owner, and not as though they made a new visit to the cache on a date some time after it was placed.

[+Mudfrog]

The thing about deceitful and malicious geocachers is that they quickly earn a reputation for their poor behavior.

 

And more than that, when deceit and a lack of integrity in how some play the game is condoned, that reflects badly on the game of geocaching when the perception is that it's a game played by people that lack integrity. As someone that calls themself a geocacher, that reflects bad on me.

 

I think people are smarter than that. There are so called "bad apples" in everything. Do you really think every single geocacher plays the game with integrity? To think that would make you extremely naive. Are there bad cops, yes, do people cheat at cards, yes but I don't think every cop is bad or every card player cheats, etc...

I see it this way as well but guess what,,, a lot of people don't. Many, many people will see someone do wrong and then automatically assume the whole group is doing wrong. You mentioned cops, because of some bad police/public interactions, there are now many people who dislike/hate all cops these days.

[+narcissa]

As far as logging an Earth or a Virtual cache on a different day as the rest of the caches you found in the area that day.

 

If I'm on vacation with my family I usually only go for P & G's, Earth or Virtuals if my family is with me. My wife had major surgery and can't hike anymore. I will go for a hike by myself and grab those and save the Earth and Virtuals for a time when she is with me provided they are close to parking. I may find 20 caches that require hiking on "Friday" and stop for an Earth or Virtual cache on "Saturday" because my wife was with me that day even though the caches are not that far apart. Then what if there is a souvenir offered on that Saturday? It may look like I "pampered" my finds to get a souvenir. I actually don't care what people think but some may feel I did because that's the way it looked.

 

In my experience things are almost never the way they appear.

 

If you conduct yourself honestly, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

[+Reno8]

As far as logging an Earth or a Virtual cache on a different day as the rest of the caches you found in the area that day.

 

If I'm on vacation with my family I usually only go for P & G's, Earth or Virtuals if my family is with me. My wife had major surgery and can't hike anymore. I will go for a hike by myself and grab those and save the Earth and Virtuals for a time when she is with me provided they are close to parking. I may find 20 caches that require hiking on "Friday" and stop for an Earth or Virtual cache on "Saturday" because my wife was with me that day even though the caches are not that far apart. Then what if there is a souvenir offered on that Saturday? It may look like I "pampered" my finds to get a souvenir. I actually don't care what people think but some may feel I did because that's the way it looked.

 

In my experience things are almost never the way they appear.

 

If you conduct yourself honestly, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

 

True but how would a skeptical CO know that?

[+Reno8]

The thing about deceitful and malicious geocachers is that they quickly earn a reputation for their poor behavior.

 

And more than that, when deceit and a lack of integrity in how some play the game is condoned, that reflects badly on the game of geocaching when the perception is that it's a game played by people that lack integrity. As someone that calls themself a geocacher, that reflects bad on me.

 

I think people are smarter than that. There are so called "bad apples" in everything. Do you really think every single geocacher plays the game with integrity? To think that would make you extremely naive. Are there bad cops, yes, do people cheat at cards, yes but I don't think every cop is bad or every card player cheats, etc...

I see it this way as well but guess what,,, a lot of people don't. Many, many people will see someone do wrong and then automatically assume the whole group is doing wrong. You mentioned cops, because of some bad police/public interactions, there are now many people who dislike/hate all cops these days.

 

Very true but that's because they are uneducated and ignorant or use that to justify their actions

[+bflentje]

Simple answer, I log caches on the date I found them no matter which type they are. I don't care about the souvenirs, I'll get them when I get them or not. My statistics are a reflection of what I found not a goal.

Same here, except that I do care about Souvenirs and various stats. Still, I date the logs on the date I found the cache, or took the webcam photo, or recorded the info from the virtual/EarthCache location, or whatever.

 

I don't care about souvenirs but yet I always find myself going through the effort to get them. I might need some kind of help.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

The thing about deceitful and malicious geocachers is that they quickly earn a reputation for their poor behavior.

 

And more than that, when deceit and a lack of integrity in how some play the game is condoned, that reflects badly on the game of geocaching when the perception is that it's a game played by people that lack integrity. As someone that calls themself a geocacher, that reflects bad on me.

 

I think people are smarter than that. There are so called "bad apples" in everything. Do you really think every single geocacher plays the game with integrity? To think that would make you extremely naive. Are there bad cops, yes, do people cheat at cards, yes but I don't think every cop is bad or every card player cheats, etc...

 

Yes, there are bad apples in everything. Going with the bad apples analogy, how many bad apples does it take for the bunch to be spoiled?

 

The argument that not everyone plays with the game with integrity is a straw man. It suggest that the goal of those that criticize, rather than condone bad apples is to eliminate all bad apples and the game will only be "good" when all bad apples are eliminated. As you said, people are smarter than that.

 

Smart people understand that it's not an all or nothing proposition. Smart people understand that the perception of the game by land managers will be "better" if deception and a lack of integrity is generally seen as an acceptable way to play the game. We're never going to convince every land manager that there are no bad apples, but as ambassadors of the game we are best served by presenting the game in the best possible light. Nothing good can be gained by condoning dishonesty and a lack of integrity.

 

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

As far as logging an Earth or a Virtual cache on a different day as the rest of the caches you found in the area that day.

 

If I'm on vacation with my family I usually only go for P & G's, Earth or Virtuals if my family is with me. My wife had major surgery and can't hike anymore. I will go for a hike by myself and grab those and save the Earth and Virtuals for a time when she is with me provided they are close to parking. I may find 20 caches that require hiking on "Friday" and stop for an Earth or Virtual cache on "Saturday" because my wife was with me that day even though the caches are not that far apart. Then what if there is a souvenir offered on that Saturday? It may look like I "pampered" my finds to get a souvenir. I actually don't care what people think but some may feel I did because that's the way it looked.

 

In my experience things are almost never the way they appear.

 

If you conduct yourself honestly, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

 

True but how would a skeptical CO know that?

 

What do you suppose would cause a CO to be skeptical?

[+bflentje]

I suppose I am naive, did not realize there are 101 ways to lie, deceive, cheat, connive, manipulate, bamboozle...in geocaching.

 

Yep, cheaters can be inventive, especially in finding arguments to explain why what they do isn't cheating

 

What's even more fascinating is the way the deception, cheating, lying, etc is rationalized. It's pretty comical actually.

[+Reno8]

As far as logging an Earth or a Virtual cache on a different day as the rest of the caches you found in the area that day.

 

If I'm on vacation with my family I usually only go for P & G's, Earth or Virtuals if my family is with me. My wife had major surgery and can't hike anymore. I will go for a hike by myself and grab those and save the Earth and Virtuals for a time when she is with me provided they are close to parking. I may find 20 caches that require hiking on "Friday" and stop for an Earth or Virtual cache on "Saturday" because my wife was with me that day even though the caches are not that far apart. Then what if there is a souvenir offered on that Saturday? It may look like I "pampered" my finds to get a souvenir. I actually don't care what people think but some may feel I did because that's the way it looked.

 

In my experience things are almost never the way they appear.

 

If you conduct yourself honestly, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

 

True but how would a skeptical CO know that?

 

What do you suppose would cause a CO to be skeptical?

 

 

Don't know! Maybe if you logged all the other caches in the immediate area on one day and logged theirs on a different day like narcissa posted. I wouldn't be skeptical of that on any of my caches but maybe some CO's would.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Reno8

[+T0SHEA]

Perhaps a new thread needs to be started and these topics covered there. I thought this thread was about the Missions.

Edited August 17, 2016 by BK-Hunters

[+Reno8]

Perhaps a new thread needs to be started and these topics covered there. I thought this thread was about the Missions.

 

Agreed! I can take the blame for that. I should have started a new thread about this. I do apologize to everyone for getting off topic

[+Reno8]

I started a new thread about Geocaching Etiquette if anybody is interested in keeping this thread going. Hopefully a moderator can cut and paste the off topic posts from this thread onto that one. Start with post #199.

 

Again I apologize!

[+redsox_mark]

Sort of back on topic.. I just got an email from Groundspeak saying

 

Good work, agent redsox_mark.

 

You successfully completed Mission GC. Now that you've proven yourself a skilled secret agent, it's time you join the ranks of the world's most famous spies and look like one too.

 

And selling coins and stuff. But there is one more stage in the mission, right?

[+Reno8]

Me too!

 

Yep! One more mission on the 27th and 28th.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Reno8