1 Terrain

[+Harry Dolphin]

I read through the guidelines, and the Help Center info concerning 1 Terrain caches. What I find is:

3.7. Wheelchair Accessibility

 

Some caches are wheelchair accessible.

 

One way to identify them is by using the Terrain rating. One star usually means that it is handicapped-accessible. Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.

 

Another method is to look for the cache attribute designating "wheelchair accessible." Attributes are listed along the right side, near the top of each cache page. Those who use Pocket Queries (a Premium Member feature) may create a filter using these attributes, and automate their searches.

 

The reviewer has told me:

Please double-check to make sure the terrain is rated properly. If you used the cache rating system link ( http://www.clayjar.com/gcrs/ ) when you submitted the cache, you will note that a 1 star terrain cache should be wheelchair accessible. Wheelchair accessible means not only wheeling up to the cache but one should be able to retrieve and replace the cache from the seat of the wheelchair. If that's the case, great! Please use the handicapped accessible "cache attribute" to let people know this. If it's not wheelchair accessible, then the terrain should be at least 1.5 stars. For more information, please see this article: http://www.todayscacher.com/2004/sep/outdoors.asp#disable

 

I'm temporarily disabling your new cache to clear it from the review queue. Please respond by posting an 'enable' note to your cache page which will move your cache back into the queue where I'll find and gladly finish reviewing it for you.

The links provided do not seem to work for me. And I do not see anything in the guidelines, or Book of Help that contain that definition of wheelchair accessible for Terrain 1. I also do not see anything that requires the use of wheelchair attribute, or any other attribute.

Have the guidelines changed? If so, why are they not listed in the guidelines? I am a bit befuzzled here. For this cache, it is not a problem. I'll change it to 1.5. But for future caches, is

Wheelchair accessible means not only wheeling up to the cache but one should be able to retrieve and replace the cache from the seat of the wheelchair.

a genuine requirement?

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

But for future caches, is

Wheelchair accessible means not only wheeling up to the cache but one should be able to retrieve and replace the cache from the seat of the wheelchair.

a genuine requirement?

 

I've always taken it that way. It would seen silly to expect a cacher to wheel one's self to GZ only to find that the cache was 6 feet up on a limb. If it could be lifted from the limb and replaced w/ a reasonably sized stick, I would say it was fine.

[+the4dirtydogs]

Wheelchair accessible means not only wheeling up to the cache but one should be able to retrieve and replace the cache from the seat of the wheelchair.

 

This is how I always treated a 1 terrain.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Wheelchair accessible means not only wheeling up to the cache but one should be able to retrieve and replace the cache from the seat of the wheelchair.

 

This is how I always treated a 1 terrain.

 

Then, shouldn't the guidelines and Book of Help say that? I'm sorry that my ouija board is broken. A new one is on order. The requirement/guideline is "less than a half mile, and smooth or paved." All I know is what I read: "less than a half mile, and smooth or paved." And the cache fits that guideline.

[+Don_J]

The reviewer held up publishing your cache because he thought the terrain or attribute use was wrong? Either that's a new guideline that no one knows about or the reviewer over stepped.

 

The one time that this issue came up on a cache of mine, (T1 with no attribute), the reviewer posted a reviewer note asking, me to consider just what yours detailed, but then published, not disabled the cache. Note he asked, he did not require.

 

I thought, and I still think that my cache was a T1 but not wheelchair accessible because of the height of the actual cache.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Don_J

[+ByronForestPreserve]

I think the first quote is how terrain 1 was envisioned--flat, paved, short distance. And note that it says "some caches" and "usually" wheelchair accessible, not that T1 is required to be. However, lots of people use the terrain rating to find wheelchair accessible caches, and even in my short time I've seen many people say that the "usually accessible" should mean "is accessible." So while the guideline itself hasn't changed, seems like the way people think of T1 in the community has. If they really wanted the requirement, the attribute would pop up automatically...

 

One of the Terrain 1 caches I found was up in a tree, and most of the logs mention that the terrain rating is wrong.

[+the4dirtydogs]

Wheelchair accessible means not only wheeling up to the cache but one should be able to retrieve and replace the cache from the seat of the wheelchair.

 

This is how I always treated a 1 terrain.

 

Then, shouldn't the guidelines and Book of Help say that? I'm sorry that my ouija board is broken. A new one is on order. The requirement/guideline is "less than a half mile, and smooth or paved." All I know is what I read: "less than a half mile, and smooth or paved." And the cache fits that guideline.

I thought that was in the guidelines, guess not. I might of ran into this problem when I first started placing caches and was questioned by a reviewer as well. I can't really remember but I remember that a person in a wheelchair had to be able to find and replace the cache from the wheelchiar to be rated a T1. Maybe it's time to add that to the guidelines.

[GOF and Bacall]

Personally I think it reasonable to expect a cache that is wheelchair accessible be accessible from a wheelchair. T1D1 has been expected to be wheelchair accessible way back to before I started playing. But I will agree that the guideline could be a bit more explicit on the subject.

[+OHail]

It appears it became generally accepted in mid-2007 that terrain 1 means a cache is wheelchair accessible. Before that, it seems to mean the cache was less than 500 feet from parking. This is just speculation on my part since I didn't start caching until August 2007 but this is the best I have been able to determine from various observations.

 

It also seems that caches rated terrain 1 before the change were grandfathered because not all older caches which are rated as such are wheelchair accessible.

 

When I submitted a terrain 1 cache in early 2008, the reviewer sent a similar note to me asking if my cache was wheelchair accessible and to add the wheelchair attribute to the cache page if it was. If it was not, to change the rating to 1.5. It was published shortly after I received the note.

 

I wonder if this is why the terrain rating default on the cache submittal page is 1.5 now. Obviously, attributes have not been a requirement since many cache pages do not have any. I don't know if it is a requirement now because I add them to my cache pages anyway.

[+StarBrand]

I had a similar note (nearly identical) in late 2007. Led to a discussion at the statewide Geocaching group and we all generally agreed that was right to have t1 caches fit a totally wheelchair bound cacher. I've actually been surprised that it hasn't been formally mentioned in the guidelines.

[+snow_rules]

Actually shouldn't the terrain be just getting there and the difficulty is how hard it is to get the actual cache. So if a cache is on a lamppost in the middle of a parking lot under the skirt I would say this is a 1 terrain/1 diff. If the cache was 16 feet up on the lamppost it would still be a 1 terrain but a higher difficulty (doesn't matter if with a wheelchair or not).

[AZcachemeister]

Actually shouldn't the terrain be just getting there and the difficulty is how hard it is to get the actual cache. So if a cache is on a lamppost in the middle of a parking lot under the skirt I would say this is a 1 terrain/1 diff. If the cache was 16 feet up on the lamppost it would still be a 1 terrain but a higher difficulty (doesn't matter if with a wheelchair or not).

 

Nope.

The difficulty is a 1, while the terrain is not since it is 16 feet up.

 

Harry, I have always assumed a T1 mean that someone solo caching from a wheelchair would have no issues with the cache.

 

That the reviewer is 'challenging' you assessment of the terrain is interesting...are they assessing the terrain on all caches, or just the easy ones? Are they sure the T5 they published yesterday is actually a T5?

 

Obviously a T1 should be a bit easier to determine, and certainly the reviewer should be commended for considering handicapped cachers. I have seen logs from wheelchair-cachers on caches I would consider a T2.5 or even a T3!

 

The D/T ratings have always been subjective, and regional.

A T3 in Arizona is not the same as a T3 in Maine, is not the same as a T3 in Florida.

 

Bottom line, if the reviewer held up publication over the ratings they have over-stepped their bounds.

[+snow_rules]

Actually shouldn't the terrain be just getting there and the difficulty is how hard it is to get the actual cache. So if a cache is on a lamppost in the middle of a parking lot under the skirt I would say this is a 1 terrain/1 diff. If the cache was 16 feet up on the lamppost it would still be a 1 terrain but a higher difficulty (doesn't matter if with a wheelchair or not).

 

Nope.

The difficulty is a 1, while the terrain is not since it is 16 feet up.

 

 

Totally disagree, as well as several caches that are exactly that way. The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

[+snow_rules]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

So what is difficulty used for then?

[AZcachemeister]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

So what is difficulty used for then?

 

How hard it is to actually locate the container.

If it is in plain sight/obvious, it's a D1.

[+snow_rules]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

So what is difficulty used for then?

 

How hard it is to actually locate the container.

If it is in plain sight/obvious, it's a D1.

 

So you would differ from this description in a cache - To claim this cache as a find, you MUST sign the log. The description states that the challenge is not in the find, (anyone can see it, it's in plain sight) the challenge is in the retrieval. So, do not claim this cache just because you spotted it. Use your imagination and figure out how to get it.

 

They have it as a difficulty of a 5 (I would probably make it a little lower)

[AZcachemeister]

To claim this cache as a find, you MUST sign the log.

 

In my world, this is always the case.

 

Some cachers live in a different world than I do.

 

EDIT:

 

Substituting 'space/time continuum' for 'world' may be helpful to understand where those other caches are coming from.

Edited March 20, 2013 by AZcachemeister

[+OHail]

I have found some like that. They have been lower difficulty and higher terrain.

 

Retrieval is easy once one is either within arm's reach of the cache or uses special equipment to obtain the cache. Based on what I have seen, if one has to climb to get within reach, then it is not terrain 1. If special equipment is required, then those are usually rated closer to terrain 5.

[+M 5]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

So what is difficulty used for then?

 

How hard it is to actually locate the container.

If it is in plain sight/obvious, it's a D1.

 

So you would differ from this description in a cache - To claim this cache as a find, you MUST sign the log. The description states that the challenge is not in the find, (anyone can see it, it's in plain sight) the challenge is in the retrieval. So, do not claim this cache just because you spotted it. Use your imagination and figure out how to get it.

 

They have it as a difficulty of a 5 (I would probably make it a little lower)

 

If the retrieval is difficult because of terrain (up a tree, pole, concrete pillar, ledge, etc...) then the difficulty is lower and the terrain is higher. If it is hard to retrieve because it is some sort of field puzzle (locked box, monkey puzzle, have to use some sort of fishing pole, etc...) It is a higher difficulty and the terrain would be lower. In the above example, I can't tell which is the case.

[+cerberus1]

The reviewer sends a link with clayjar ratings for a reference (I guess) as to "what he's thinking".

1/1 is the default setting on Clayjar and says nothing about handicapped or wheelchairs as part of how to rate a cache.

The only brief mention to wheelchairs is in the question...

"What is the terrain elevation like?"

With a default to, "Basically flat"

And an explanation of, "Only slight elevation changes. Easy to do in a wheelchair, stroller, bike, etc. "

 

- Maybe your cache should be changed to stroller accessible, as there (by this system) is no difference.

 

"Handicapped accessible" (not wheelchair) appears after you click, "Rate Cache".

- So the system the reviewer sent you for reference doesn't even have a "wheelchair accessible" setting within it.

 

Then to refer you to an online magazine for additional info is just odd.

- If I was going to put out a cache that I'm not too sure of, rather than search the Help Line or Geocaching 101, why the first thing I'd do is reach for my copy of NOTOFFICIALGUIDELINES magazine.

 

I'm with you on this one Harry. Sorry, but I couldn't find a copy of the oversteppinbounds weekly to help for reference.

[+snow_rules]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

 

So if the cache is at a base of a tree then the terrain is 1-1.5? Even if you have to hike 10 miles or float down a white water river to get to it? But the cache site is the base of the tree so I guess that is a 1 terrain.

Edited March 20, 2013 by snow_rules

[+cerberus1]

Kidding aside, we had a 1.5/1 cache that only claimed the walk path was wheelchair accessible.

We rated the difficuly 1.5 because of a small, flat piece of shale that had to be moved away from the hole-in-tree-bottom.

- We did put the wheelchair accessible attribute on it.

 

Harry, maybe the reviewer is simply looking for you to apply an attribute?

Though really, (s)he should realize the differences between D & T.

[+Mudfrog]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

 

So if the cache is at a base of a tree then the terrain is 1-1.5? Even if you have to hike 10 miles or float down a white water river to get to it? But the cache site is the base of the tree so I guess that is a 1 terrain.

 

Nope,, It would be a higher terrain since everything you do to get to the cache is added into it. Floating the river or hiking 10 miles are the tougher parts of the equation and definitely need to be factored in.

 

The difficulty rating is for how hard it is to figure out where the cache is. A puzzle cache or well hidden cache could be hidden in an easy to get to location (lower terrain rated) but would probably deserve a higher difficulty rating because of how hard it is to figure out where it is.

[+snow_rules]

Good points, but I think the difficulty is not just where the cache is, but how to get it. After the 10 mile hike and the cache is up in a tree the terrain is still a 5 but the difficulty goes up from a one if the cache was at the base of the tree.

Edited March 20, 2013 by snow_rules

[7rxc]

I admit I have to go read the current 'guidelines' again for this season. However my recollection of a few years ago when I started, the T1 rating seemed to be reserved for people who might have some sort of physical limitation or a disability that limited their ability to move around. There was no W/C attribute at the time.

Certainly a W/C bound person fit the description of limited mobility, but so did many others be it walkers, canes, crutches, etc. Even people with fitness problems only. The T1 appeared to fit for firm or hardsurfaced areas... like pathways or other areas. Level or minimal elevation changes, and not too far to travel from parking.

 

I don't remember any requirement about W/C accessibility at that time, although it was suggested as being a good idea. With the advent of the W/C attribute for being wheelchair suitable, I was happy to go on the way I had been... if it was proven to be seekable and reachable from a chair, the attribute was the indicator.

I maintain one that is theoretically that way, but since no one has proven it I don't post the attribute, but it is T1 in all respects except proof. Closest I've come is borrowing a fixed chair of about the same size and height (lower actually) and I can see and reach the container. But that isn't proof to me. Still the rating fits most of the year (weather can mess it up a bit as anywhere).

 

Another factor is the rise of handicaching ratings for such places. Even they acknowledge that there are many levels of handicap or ability and have a range of ratings. The rating can be placed on cache pages now.

I'm currently thinking that this is the right path to rating the cache for those with disabilities.

 

Terrain can go back to being a description of the land surface. Access to the cache should have it's own rating for Accessibility. Same as the DT ratings. 1 to 5, easy to near impossible with gear. Let the handicaching rating deal with 'mobility challenges'. Difficulty can remain that... how hard is it to retrieve the container

once you are at GZ.

 

Times do change and this has been changing and should continue, it has been confusing long enough.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+SwineFlew]

Most the time I start my caches at 2T.

 

To me, 1 and 1.5 is for handicapped people. The way I see 1.5T is for flat and paved ground but require you to bend over. If the ground is non paved, start at 2T.

 

Since my father is in a wheel chair and my brother inlaw will be in one someday, so I have a good idea how much a person can do in a non motored chair.

 

My brother inlaw wont cache because it force him to snoop too low. He can walk "ok" but not for long and cant bend over in fear of losing his balance. Something to think about.

 

We got too many CO that think like something along this line, " I am disable myself and can do it just fine and so can do it as well!"

[+Don_J]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

 

So if the cache is at a base of a tree then the terrain is 1-1.5? Even if you have to hike 10 miles or float down a white water river to get to it? But the cache site is the base of the tree so I guess that is a 1 terrain.

 

Of course not. Think of it this way. What is the overall approach like to get the cache in your hand? A flat walk and then climbing a tree would be higher than a simple flat walk to find a cache at your feet. Climbing a mountain to find a cache at your feet would also be a higher terrain than a flat walk and finding a cache at your feet.

[Keystone]

For many years, Groundspeak encouraged reviewers to help geocachers with limited mobility, by alerting the owners of new cache submissions about the proper use of the "wheelchair accessible" attribute.

 

Months ago, "encouraged" changed to "required." Meaning that, reviewers worldwide are asked to hold up publication of caches misusing the attribute when the terrain is higher than one star, or omitting the attribute when the terrain is equal to one star. We ask the cache owner to correct whatever is wrong -- the rating or the attribute -- and then the cache can be published.

 

This is the only terrain rating issue that reviewers have been instructed to question. Most of the time, the cache owner quickly makes the change, and the cache is then published.

 

I do recognize some of the language in the quoted template, which is a bit out of date. It's based in part on a template I wrote seven or eight years ago. My current reviewer note template links to this page, quoted in the OP: http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=71 I also reference the built-in cache rating tool rather than the original Clayjar website version of the rating guidelines.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Keystone

[+Don_J]

For many years, Groundspeak encouraged reviewers to help geocachers with limited mobility, by alerting the owners of new cache submissions about the proper use of the "wheelchair accessible" attribute.

 

Months ago, "encouraged" changed to "required." Meaning that, reviewers worldwide are asked to hold up publication of caches misusing the attribute when the terrain is higher than one star, or omitting the attribute when the terrain is equal to one star. We ask the cache owner to correct whatever is wrong -- the rating or the attribute -- and then the cache can be published.

 

This is the only terrain rating issue that reviewers have been instructed to question. Most of the time, the cache owner quickly makes the change, and the cache is then published.

 

I do recognize some of the language in the quoted template, which is a bit out of date. It's based in part on a template I wrote seven or eight years ago. My current reviewer note template links to this page, quoted in the OP: http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=71 I also reference the built-in cache rating tool rather than the original Clayjar website version of the rating guidelines.

 

There really should be some effort made to get everyone on the same page here. Nothing about "required" in the guidelines, reviewers referencing different rating systems and even sources on other websites that may or may not have their own agendas, and no real notification to cache placers until they submit their cache with the problem. I don't think that that is fair to the cache placer, or the reviewer who both now have to do extra work to get the cache published. This seems like a good subject to be covered in the newsletter, after the guidelines are officially changed.

 

I have read reviewers posts on these forums in the past that have detailed the average reviewing session and most say that they get the easy stuff out of the way first. If that is true, wouldn't the cache in question drop lower on the priority list? This wouldn't be an issue in my area where caches are typically reviewed within a couple of hours, but I would hate to see someone wait seven days for his cache to be published only to receive a reviewers note asking him to add an attribute and resubmit, then having to wait another seven days to actually have it published. Please understand that I am asking out of curiosity, not to be critical of the process.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Don_J

[+The A-Team]

Months ago, "encouraged" changed to "required."

I have to wonder, then, why the published guidelines were not updated by TPTB "months ago" to reflect this new requirement? It seems we're hearing more and more about undocumented guidelines...

[+Don_J]

Months ago, "encouraged" changed to "required."

I have to wonder, then, why the published guidelines were not updated by TPTB "months ago" to reflect this new requirement? It seems we're hearing more and more about undocumented guidelines...

 

And at the same time, being told that there are no undocumented guidelines. Again, not being critical, just observant. I do appreciate Keystone's input.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Don_J

[Keystone]

At the time of the new instructions from Groundspeak, I knew it would be just a matter of time before this thread appeared!

 

To answer another question, this issue is one of the three easiest reviewer issues -- possibly the #1 easiest of all. Spot discrepancy between rating and attributes, copy canned template, paste note on cache page.

[+jellis]

Wheelchair accessible means not only wheeling up to the cache but one should be able to retrieve and replace the cache from the seat of the wheelchair.

 

This is how I always treated a 1 terrain.

 

Then, shouldn't the guidelines and Book of Help say that? I'm sorry that my ouija board is broken. A new one is on order. The requirement/guideline is "less than a half mile, and smooth or paved." All I know is what I read: "less than a half mile, and smooth or paved." And the cache fits that guideline.

I saw one like that. They rated the cache a 1/1. It was a container on a guardrail. It was smooth/paved surface, less then .5 miles and can be reached from a wheelchair. What the CO didn't mention is the wheelchair has to access it from the roadside of the guardrail and there is little space between the cars and the guardrail. No bike lane no pull out. The person in the wheelchair would be toast if a car came.

[+NeverSummer]

Months ago, "encouraged" changed to "required."

I have to wonder, then, why the published guidelines were not updated by TPTB "months ago" to reflect this new requirement? It seems we're hearing more and more about undocumented guidelines...

There's this, and I wonder what happened to a good ol'cache description update?

 

I just placed a cache that could be considered wheelchair accessible. It is along a paved path, and within reach of the trail. The issue is, one could not just reach down from a chair and grab the cache. It is on the ground, and under a few branches of a tree. So, with a grabbing tool, one could grab this while seated.

 

I marked it a 1.5, even though the cache is on a flat paved trail. Based on my first phrase, should this possibility of access with a wheelchair all be clearly noted in a description? Or, couldn't this be listed as a 1* terrain, with advice about a grabber tool in the description? Wouldn't a person desiring wheelchair accessibility want an easy search for caches by looking for 1* terrain caches, then weeding out the ones that can be reach easily with the knowledge to bring a grabber tool? (Or would the need for a grabber tool make it a 4 or 5* D cache because of the special tool needed?)

 

You see, how do you account for these subtleties while making cache listings easy to search? Or, does 1* terrain now only mean that it must be accessible from a wheelchair--meaning shoulder height when seated, and on an established trail that could be used without issue by a wheelchair?

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Personally I think it reasonable to expect a cache that is wheelchair accessible be accessible from a wheelchair. T1D1 has been expected to be wheelchair accessible way back to before I started playing. But I will agree that the guideline could be a bit more explicit on the subject.

 

I once searched for a cache on a tank that was T1, D4. The terrain rating really narrowed down the spots where it could be hidden...but I still DNFd it. I don't see why the Difficulty level would need to be low to make it wheelchair accessible.

[+redsox_mark]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

 

I don't think this is clear in the guidelines and I've seen it interpreted different ways. One example I can think of was a nano which was 50 feet up on a lamppost. It was rated D5 T1. We got it down (then back up) using a very long pole. It took some time and was difficult, but we didn't climb up the post. Using the tool we brought I could have done it sitting in a wheelchair. Maybe that is what the owner had in mind when they gave the rating. I've generally seen tree climbing caches with high terrain related to the tree, as you are expected to climb up.

 

The terrain guidelines are all about the journey getting to the cache. So clearly if you need to climb Mt. Everest to get it, that is high terrain. The example I gave above, where you can park by the lamppost and see the cache 50 feet up is not so clear to me. I've seen it argued both ways.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

The terrain getting to the cache site it level paved ground so easily a level 1 terrain. The difficulty is how to get the cache down.

No, I disagree. The cache site is the spot that touches the cache. If that is 50' up a tree, it's a 4-5 terrain. If it's at the base, it's a 1-1.5.

 

I don't think this is clear in the guidelines and I've seen it interpreted different ways. One example I can think of was a nano which was 50 feet up on a lamppost. It was rated D5 T1. We got it down (then back up) using a very long pole. It took some time and was difficult, but we didn't climb up the post. Using the tool we brought I could have done it sitting in a wheelchair. Maybe that is what the owner had in mind when they gave the rating. I've generally seen tree climbing caches with high terrain related to the tree, as you are expected to climb up.

 

The terrain guidelines are all about the journey getting to the cache. So clearly if you need to climb Mt. Everest to get it, that is high terrain. The example I gave above, where you can park by the lamppost and see the cache 50 feet up is not so clear to me. I've seen it argued both ways.

The intent was never to climb. The lamppost. Most would not think to look at the top of the lamppost, and once they did, would have to figure out (mentally) how to get it. (Thus high D Low T).

Edited March 20, 2013 by Sharks-N-Beans

[+JL_HSTRE]

Difficulty: how hard is the cache to find the container and access the log once you are standing at GZ, plus how long it takes to complete (multis/wherigos/puzzles)?

 

Terrain: what physical/equipment challenges will you encounter between leaving your car and putting your hands on the cache? (Distance, elevation/climbing, water crossings, trail conditions)

 

If a cache is 10 ft up a tree, post, etc then high D vs high T comes down to how it is retrieved.

 

Do you climb the tree, either freeclimbing, with climbing gear, or with a ladder? T4+.

 

Is some pulley system employed to raise & lower the cache to ground level? Is a grabbing/retrieval tool required to be used but which brings the container down to you without climbing? Low T, high D.

 

Also, a cache may deserve the Wheelchair Accessible attribute but not be T1. Among the T1 requirements is a less than 1/2 mile trip from parking. So a cache easily accessible from a paved bike path but several miles from the trailhead would be Wheelchair accessible but T1.5 or higher (depending on the distance).

[AZcachemeister]

 

To answer another question, this issue is one of the three easiest reviewer issues -- possibly the #1 easiest of all. Spot discrepancy between rating and attributes, copy canned template, paste note on cache page.

 

So, what I gather from this is that if we use the 'Wheelchair Accessible' attribute, the terrain must necessarily be 1?

 

EDITED to add:

 

And if the terrain is a 1, the cache must necessarily be wheelchair accessible?

 

Sounds like the Department of Redundancy Department has been at work again.

Edited March 20, 2013 by AZcachemeister

[+ras_oscar]

To the OP; Whether T1 means wheelchair accessible or not, you aren't going to get your cache published by challenging the reviewer in the forums. If your local reviewer believes T1 means accessible, either add the wheelchair accessible atrtribute (if it is accessible from a wheelchair) or change the terrain to 1.5 and move on. The reviewers generally use their judgement in determining what is and is not a publishable cache. As with any guideline/rule, they are open to interpretation. Perhaps, as Keystone noted, the guidance to reviewers has changed. Perhaps the reviewer has received complaints from cachers with mobility imparements who arrived at GZ of a T1 and couldn't log the container. Perhaps both. Reviewers are forced to walk a fine line between COs and cachers on a wide range of issues. All on caches that they have not even seen. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

[+Car54]

Months ago, "encouraged" changed to "required."

I have to wonder, then, why the published guidelines were not updated by TPTB "months ago" to reflect this new requirement? It seems we're hearing more and more about undocumented guidelines...

 

I agree - this sort of communication gap is very frustrating and my perception (admittedly limited) is that it is becoming more frequent.

 

Mrs. Car54

[+Off Grid]

I read through the guidelines, and the Help Center info concerning 1 Terrain caches. What I find is:

3.7. Wheelchair Accessibility

 

Some caches are wheelchair accessible.

 

One way to identify them is by using the Terrain rating. One star usually means that it is handicapped-accessible. Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.

 

Another method is to look for the cache attribute designating "wheelchair accessible." Attributes are listed along the right side, near the top of each cache page. Those who use Pocket Queries (a Premium Member feature) may create a filter using these attributes, and automate their searches.

 

The reviewer has told me:

Please double-check to make sure the terrain is rated properly. If you used the cache rating system link ( http://www.clayjar.com/gcrs/ ) when you submitted the cache, you will note that a 1 star terrain cache should be wheelchair accessible. Wheelchair accessible means not only wheeling up to the cache but one should be able to retrieve and replace the cache from the seat of the wheelchair. If that's the case, great! Please use the handicapped accessible "cache attribute" to let people know this. If it's not wheelchair accessible, then the terrain should be at least 1.5 stars. For more information, please see this article: http://www.todayscacher.com/2004/sep/outdoors.asp#disable

 

I'm temporarily disabling your new cache to clear it from the review queue. Please respond by posting an 'enable' note to your cache page which will move your cache back into the queue where I'll find and gladly finish reviewing it for you.

The links provided do not seem to work for me. And I do not see anything in the guidelines, or Book of Help that contain that definition of wheelchair accessible for Terrain 1. I also do not see anything that requires the use of wheelchair attribute, or any other attribute.

Have the guidelines changed? If so, why are they not listed in the guidelines? I am a bit befuzzled here. For this cache, it is not a problem. I'll change it to 1.5. But for future caches, is

Wheelchair accessible means not only wheeling up to the cache but one should be able to retrieve and replace the cache from the seat of the wheelchair.

a genuine requirement?

 

If you use there system and honestly answer every time I got my cache was a one every time I emailed and emailed and no one not even my reviewer would answer me big surprise

[+Off Grid]

To the OP; Whether T1 means wheelchair accessible or not, you aren't going to get your cache published by challenging the reviewer in the forums. If your local reviewer believes T1 means accessible, either add the wheelchair accessible atrtribute (if it is accessible from a wheelchair) or change the terrain to 1.5 and move on. The reviewers generally use their judgement in determining what is and is not a publishable cache. As with any guideline/rule, they are open to interpretation. Perhaps, as Keystone noted, the guidance to reviewers has changed. Perhaps the reviewer has received complaints from cachers with mobility imparements who arrived at GZ of a T1 and couldn't log the container. Perhaps both. Reviewers are forced to walk a fine line between COs and cachers on a wide range of issues. All on caches that they have not even seen. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

there's a website for handicapps and they review them by themselves

[+Off Grid]

Difficulty: how hard is the cache to find the container and access the log once you are standing at GZ, plus how long it takes to complete (multis/wherigos/puzzles)?

 

Terrain: what physical/equipment challenges will you encounter between leaving your car and putting your hands on the cache? (Distance, elevation/climbing, water crossings, trail conditions)

 

If a cache is 10 ft up a tree, post, etc then high D vs high T comes down to how it is retrieved.

 

Do you climb the tree, either freeclimbing, with climbing gear, or with a ladder? T4+.

 

Is some pulley system employed to raise & lower the cache to ground level? Is a grabbing/retrieval tool required to be used but which brings the container down to you without climbing? Low T, high D.

 

Also, a cache may deserve the Wheelchair Accessible attribute but not be T1. Among the T1 requirements is a less than 1/2 mile trip from parking. So a cache easily accessible from a paved bike path but several miles from the trailhead would be Wheelchair accessible but T1.5 or higher (depending on the distance).

yes but according to their system my cache would be a 1 not 1.5 systems are flawed

[+fbingha]

Meaning that, reviewers worldwide are asked to hold up publication of caches misusing the attribute when the terrain is higher than one star, or omitting the attribute when the terrain is equal to one star

Sounds like to me that you need to remove the wheelchair attribute from being editable. Simply display it for 1 star hides and disable it for everything else. Add a note to the page that 1 star hides must be wheelchair accessible.

That would save quite a bit of useless back and forth.

[+J Grouchy]

Reference the ADA, is what I would do.

 

Edited March 20, 2013 by J Grouchy