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Time to archive the puzzle cache.


Roman!

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I can't "just not do them". They affect my ability to know where I can hide a cache.

 

:signalviolin:

 

Have the actual caches become so boring that people would rather sit in front of your computers for hours doing puzzles instead?

 

Have the actual caches become so boring you would rather sit in front of your computer discussing why people shouldn't be sitting in front of their computers? :blink::anibad:

 

This is a silly argument as you can't be out caching all the time, sometimes it nice to post here. My argument is puzzles have nothing to do with Geocaching, all you are doing is deflecting.

 

All anyone has done is give other examples of my point but no one actually pointed out why puzzles belong, in a way you all proved they should be done away with.

 

They're puzzle caches, after I apply myself to solving the initial stage of the cache I go outside (usually with my 3 small sons) for a nice walk and search in nature. Surprisingly, I usually find a big ol ammo can in some out of the way natural area instead of a nano or keyholder in a parking lot. :ph34r:

 

You. Just stated 2 seperately activities and although they both may be enjoyable they have nothing to do. With each other.

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I can't "just not do them". They affect my ability to know where I can hide a cache.

 

:signalviolin:

 

Have the actual caches become so boring that people would rather sit in front of your computers for hours doing puzzles instead?

 

Have the actual caches become so boring you would rather sit in front of your computer discussing why people shouldn't be sitting in front of their computers? :blink::anibad:

 

This is a silly argument as you can't be out caching all the time, sometimes it nice to post here. My argument is puzzles have nothing to do with Geocaching, all you are doing is deflecting.

 

All anyone has done is give other examples of my point but no one actually pointed out why puzzles belong, in a way you all proved they should be done away with.

 

They're puzzle caches, after I apply myself to solving the initial stage of the cache I go outside (usually with my 3 small sons) for a nice walk and search in nature. Surprisingly, I usually find a big ol ammo can in some out of the way natural area instead of a nano or keyholder in a parking lot. :ph34r:

 

You. Just stated 2 seperately activities and although they both may be enjoyable they have nothing to do. With each other.

 

They have everything to do with each other since I'm looking for a puzzle cache B)

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Should ? Caches be archived? No, I was just creating a discussion, I know lots of people who like them, in fact I cache with one who is a master of creating and solving them and I'll tag along when he has one to find but I really do hate them.

I'm confused. What are we discussing again? Apparently we're not discussing archiving all puzzle caches (contrary to what the very specific topic title says), so I'm not really sure what this discussion is all about now.

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Should ? Caches be archived? No, I was just creating a discussion, I know lots of people who like them, in fact I cache with one who is a master of creating and solving them and I'll tag along when he has one to find but I really do hate them.

I'm confused. What are we discussing again? Apparently we're not discussing archiving all puzzle caches (contrary to what the very specific topic title says), so I'm not really sure what this discussion is all about now.

 

I guess what I'm saying is there should be no more puzzle cache allowed to be published..

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I'm confused. What are we discussing again? Apparently we're not discussing archiving all puzzle caches (contrary to what the very specific topic title says), so I'm not really sure what this discussion is all about now.

I guess what I'm saying is there should be no more puzzle cache allowed to be published..

...because the puzzle doesn't fit with what you consider to be the "spirit of geocaching". I think we've determined during this discussion that there is no single, clear-cut, describable "spirit of geocaching", because everyone seems to have a different idea of what that is. The "spirit of geocaching" seems to be whatever each person thinks it is, so to say that puzzles don't fit that spirit isn't really true. It may not fit your "spirit of geocaching", but it does fit that of others. Essentially, "play the game the way you want". Do you disagree?

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I'm confused. What are we discussing again? Apparently we're not discussing archiving all puzzle caches (contrary to what the very specific topic title says), so I'm not really sure what this discussion is all about now.

I guess what I'm saying is there should be no more puzzle cache allowed to be published..

...because the puzzle doesn't fit with what you consider to be the "spirit of geocaching". I think we've determined during this discussion that there is no single, clear-cut, describable "spirit of geocaching", because everyone seems to have a different idea of what that is. The "spirit of geocaching" seems to be whatever each person thinks it is, so to say that puzzles don't fit that spirit isn't really true. It may not fit your "spirit of geocaching", but it does fit that of others. Essentially, "play the game the way you want". Do you disagree?

 

I am posting my opinion which I am entitled to. I have every right to ask that puzzle caches be done away with as you do to oppose it. If enough people actually agreed then maybe it would happen but that's unlikely but at least I can say I tried to remove the part of the game I do not enjoy.

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I am posting my opinion which I am entitled to.

Absolutely! I'm not at all saying your opinion is wrong or that you aren't entitled to an opinion. There's a part of the game that you don't like, and you naturally want it removed. You did make a bold statement, though, by saying that you don't think puzzles are really geocaches at all. I'm just trying to understand your rationale behind this statement.

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I'm confused. What are we discussing again? Apparently we're not discussing archiving all puzzle caches (contrary to what the very specific topic title says), so I'm not really sure what this discussion is all about now.

I guess what I'm saying is there should be no more puzzle cache allowed to be published..

...because the puzzle doesn't fit with what you consider to be the "spirit of geocaching". I think we've determined during this discussion that there is no single, clear-cut, describable "spirit of geocaching", because everyone seems to have a different idea of what that is. The "spirit of geocaching" seems to be whatever each person thinks it is, so to say that puzzles don't fit that spirit isn't really true. It may not fit your "spirit of geocaching", but it does fit that of others. Essentially, "play the game the way you want". Do you disagree?

 

Very well said. The OP's repeated his opinion a few times. We get it. You don't think puzzles should be a part of geocaching. Other people do. Not sure where this thread is supposed to lead... :unsure:

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I am posting my opinion which I am entitled to.

Absolutely! I'm not at all saying your opinion is wrong or that you aren't entitled to an opinion. There's a part of the game that you don't like, and you naturally want it removed. You did make a bold statement, though, by saying that you don't think puzzles are really geocaches at all. I'm just trying to understand your rationale behind this statement.

 

Yes, what do puzzles have to do with Geocaching? Puzzles are generally done indoors while the point of Geocaching is to get out and please don't say you get out once you solve the puzzle because its the cache not the puzzle getting you out, a traditional would get you out with out the hoops to jump through.

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Should ? Caches be archived? No, I was just creating a discussion, I know lots of people who like them, in fact I cache with one who is a master of creating and solving them and I'll tag along when he has one to find but I really do hate them.

I'm confused. What are we discussing again? Apparently we're not discussing archiving all puzzle caches (contrary to what the very specific topic title says), so I'm not really sure what this discussion is all about now.

 

I think the idea was, should puzzle caches be archived because they have nothing to do with geocaching? After an initial flurry of, "no, because I like them", people starting to explain why and how they believe that puzzles do relate to geocaching. I think that it has developed into an interesting discussion.

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...the point of Geocaching is to get out...

That's basically what I was trying to get at earlier. You say that geocaching is about getting out. Others say that solving the puzzles to get the coordinates is just as much a part of geocaching as getting out. Puzzles don't fit in your ideal world, but they do in that of others. When there are so many different views on what geocaching consists of, we simply can't make the universal statement that puzzles aren't part of geocaching.

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I'm confused. What are we discussing again? Apparently we're not discussing archiving all puzzle caches (contrary to what the very specific topic title says), so I'm not really sure what this discussion is all about now.

I guess what I'm saying is there should be no more puzzle cache allowed to be published..

...because the puzzle doesn't fit with what you consider to be the "spirit of geocaching". I think we've determined during this discussion that there is no single, clear-cut, describable "spirit of geocaching", because everyone seems to have a different idea of what that is. The "spirit of geocaching" seems to be whatever each person thinks it is, so to say that puzzles don't fit that spirit isn't really true. It may not fit your "spirit of geocaching", but it does fit that of others. Essentially, "play the game the way you want". Do you disagree?

 

I am posting my opinion which I am entitled to. I have every right to ask that puzzle caches be done away with as you do to oppose it. If enough people actually agreed then maybe it would happen but that's unlikely but at least I can say I tried to remove the part of the game I do not enjoy.

 

So what is it? They should be removed because they are not geocaching, or they should be removed because you don't enjoy them? It's starting to look like the former was just a smokescreen for the latter.

 

I personally don't enjoy puzzles either, but the idea that they should all go away based solely on that is very selfish. There are other cache types and types of hides that I don't like and I simply ignore them. I would never consider posing the idea that they shouldn't be allowed. If puzzles didn't have the proximity issues, I would simply ignore them as well.

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Was this thread started because someone's cache got a proximity bump? :ph34r:

 

I'm curious if puzzles are that bad, why a certain someone has done 82 of them and given 5 of them favorite points?

 

Like I said, I'm happy to offer puzzle help (minus that impossible one you listed).

 

Interesting that I have 82 puzzle finds, (1.4%) and have favorited 14 of them. Of the favorited, 7 were bonus caches, 3 were challenge caches and one was where you found a Travel bug that was a set of keys and a tag with the coordinates to locked ammo can. Looking at the rest, at least half were old ALR caches where you simply had to email the CO what you saw at GZ. These were archived before the rules changed so they were never converted to traditional. The ones that had to be solved in front of the computer were so simple that they would probably bore the puzzle gurus.

 

I can't speak for the other someone, but while it seems that I may have solved a lot of puzzles, the number is a bit misleading. More than half of them were not puzzling at all and required field work as opposed to sitting in front of the PC.

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I'm confused. What are we discussing again? Apparently we're not discussing archiving all puzzle caches (contrary to what the very specific topic title says), so I'm not really sure what this discussion is all about now.

I guess what I'm saying is there should be no more puzzle cache allowed to be published..

...because the puzzle doesn't fit with what you consider to be the "spirit of geocaching". I think we've determined during this discussion that there is no single, clear-cut, describable "spirit of geocaching", because everyone seems to have a different idea of what that is. The "spirit of geocaching" seems to be whatever each person thinks it is, so to say that puzzles don't fit that spirit isn't really true. It may not fit your "spirit of geocaching", but it does fit that of others. Essentially, "play the game the way you want". Do you disagree?

 

I am posting my opinion which I am entitled to. I have every right to ask that puzzle caches be done away with as you do to oppose it. If enough people actually agreed then maybe it would happen but that's unlikely but at least I can say I tried to remove the part of the game I do not enjoy.

I'm just curious why you think you should try to remove a part of the game that OTHERS do enjoy?

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I am posting my opinion which I am entitled to.

Absolutely! I'm not at all saying your opinion is wrong or that you aren't entitled to an opinion. There's a part of the game that you don't like, and you naturally want it removed. You did make a bold statement, though, by saying that you don't think puzzles are really geocaches at all. I'm just trying to understand your rationale behind this statement.

 

Yes, what do puzzles have to do with Geocaching? Puzzles are generally done indoors while the point of Geocaching is to get out and please don't say you get out once you solve the puzzle because its the cache not the puzzle getting you out, a traditional would get you out with out the hoops to jump through.

 

As others have mentioned, when the weather is nice, go out and find some caches.

 

When the weather is miserable (and yes, there are times when the weather is so bad I'd rather stay home then head outside) solve some puzzles, so when the weather is nice, you can go outside and find them.

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I can't speak for the other someone, but while it seems that I may have solved a lot of puzzles, the number is a bit misleading. More than half of them were not puzzling at all and required field work as opposed to sitting in front of the PC.

 

I don't think puzzle caches will be stopped. But if they were to be stopped work would need to be done on the cache type definitions. I assume the "anti-puzzle" folks would want to keep bonus caches; as well as interesting caches which do not fit the Trad or Multi type as defined (e.g. cache in an underground mine/cave which requires following clues). And maybe challenge caches. So I think we would still have a "catch all" "Unknown/Mystery" type... but we would need rules saying that only field puzzles are allowed, and you must not require the finder to solve any puzzle to find the starting coordinates.

 

And what about field puzzles? These can be used with the other cache types, e.g. Trads and Multis. As they are in the field you are doing them outside... but having to do complex math in the field (for example) can be more frustrating than doing it at home. But there are also field puzzles which are more physical in nature.

 

I remember one multi-cache which I initially found very frustrating. I enjoyed all the stages (which took me several hours).. until I got to the final which required getting a ball through a maze to open the cache. I wasn't able to do it - I'm terrible at those. (Eventually I returned and with help of my daughter and marking a path I did it). One could argue what does navigating a ball through a maze have to do with geocaching? I would have preferred to solve a math problem to get a combination to open the cache.... But to each his own. Once I got over my frustration and made the find I ended up giving it a Fav point.

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I am posting my opinion which I am entitled to. I have every right to ask that puzzle caches be done away with as you do to oppose it. If enough people actually agreed then maybe it would happen but that's unlikely but at least I can say I tried to remove the part of the game I do not enjoy.

 

My concern is that this is exactly the kind of mentality that lead to the extreme polarization we see nowadays in society. "I don't like X so we should ban X despite the fact the other people do like X". Somewhere along the way compromise and understanding seem to have left the general consciousness and now if you don't like it, it should be banned.

 

Perhaps rather than making the absolutist statement that you don't like puzzles and they should all be archived, you could have asked, given the reasons you don't like them, who do others find them enjoyable. Clearly after all this 'discussion' you goal was not to try to understand other people's opinions but simply to state your and call for it to be enforced (despite how unlikely that is to happen) on everyone else.

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I am posting my opinion which I am entitled to. I have every right to ask that puzzle caches be done away with as you do to oppose it. If enough people actually agreed then maybe it would happen but that's unlikely but at least I can say I tried to remove the part of the game I do not enjoy.

 

My concern is that this is exactly the kind of mentality that lead to the extreme polarization we see nowadays in society. "I don't like X so we should ban X despite the fact the other people do like X". Somewhere along the way compromise and understanding seem to have left the general consciousness and now if you don't like it, it should be banned.

 

Perhaps rather than making the absolutist statement that you don't like puzzles and they should all be archived, you could have asked, given the reasons you don't like them, who do others find them enjoyable. Clearly after all this 'discussion' you goal was not to try to understand other people's opinions but simply to state your and call for it to be enforced (despite how unlikely that is to happen) on everyone else.

Unfortunately this has already started within the geocaching society. Enough complaints came in about Challenge Caches that TPTB revised the guidelines for them, making them harder to develop.

 

IMHO.... if one doesn't care for certain types of caches, then don't do them.

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many puzzles are designed for one thing only

TO WASTE YOUR TIME !!

to make sure you get less cool time in th great outdoors,

just DELETE them compleetle, erase the drive they are stored on, and lets go outside and have fun..

 

puzzles with relevant information, and geocaching relevant education are welcome

if they only delay you a few minutes..

 

too many of us got a desk job, behind a PC all day long,

no way I want to waste more time behind a PC after work.

it is outside in the REAL world all the cool adventures are.

 

Bad weather dont exist, only wrong cloathing selected for the day,

we go out ANY day, any where, we do not stop due to weather.

Edited by OZ2CPU
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many puzzles are designed for one thing only

TO WASTE YOUR TIME !!

 

 

I can only speak for the puzzles I have created, and for the ones that I have talked with the CO about, but I have never seen a puzzle that was created only to waste someone's time. What would be the point of that. Whether it be a geocahcing puzzle or anything else in life. What benefit would I possible get out of making something to just waste someone else's time. To challenge their thinking processes, expose them to some new idea, expose them to some old idea... yes. But to waste their time, no.

 

As with most dogmatic arguments it appears we have finally devolved into "I love Fords and I hate Chevys" and "I love Chevys and I hate Fords". However, for me, I understand that we can all have different opinions and that my opinion of something shouldn't be used to deprive others of theirs. I am glad that we have diversity. I am glad we have multis (which I don't care for) for the people who like them. Whereido's for the people who like them and puzzles for the people who like them.

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My question still is: what do puzzles really have to do with Geocaching?

Would Geocaching exist without puzzles? Absolutely.

Would Geocaching exist without traditionals? No.

Every traditional cache is a puzzle. When you find the cache, you've successfully solved the puzzle of where and how it was hidden. That's what puzzles have to do with geocaching: geocaching is nothing but puzzles.

 

The unknown cache type is a mechanism alerting you that there's more to the puzzle in those cases than just going to the posted coordinates and looking for the physical container.

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Going back to the OP - I think it is a fair question to ask. Would the game be better without Puzzle caches? Cache types have been archived (or in most cases closed to new submissions) in the past (Virtuals, Webcams). Presumably because Groundspeak thought it made the game better (and/or more manageable) in some way. And that in spite of many people liking them. (Witness the number of "bring back Virtuals threads").

 

As I've said already, I think the game is better with puzzles. Even though I can't do many of them, and some I haven't enjoyed. And my impression based on the responses in this thread (and from other cachers I know) is that the majority of cachers also feel the game is better with puzzles. I also don't see any major issues with puzzles (like there were with Virtuals) which calls for a change.

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many puzzles are designed for one thing only

TO WASTE YOUR TIME !!

Nonsense. Even the most difficult, most challenging puzzles I've seen have not been designed to waste anyone's time. As WestSideDaddy pointed out, they may be designed to challenge or to teach. In some cases, they've been designed to bring people together as they collaborate on the solution. But even the D5 puzzles have not been created to waste anyone's time.
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many puzzles are designed for one thing only

TO WASTE YOUR TIME !!

 

While I don't think anyone purposely designs a cache to "waste finders time"; like other cache types there are good and bad caches (and of course the definition of good and bad will vary).

 

And just like physical caches, some aspects of good/bad will be generally accepted, others are more subjective. I.e. most would agree a non-robust, non-waterproof container is generally bad, while opinion would be more split on a urban hide in a muggle filled area. Some won't like it, others might. A traditional cache which is a "needle in a haystack" type I dislike, and feel they waste my time. But I assume some people like them (or at least the cache owner thinks so). But I'll happily spend a long time looking for a clever cache, which is there before your eyes but you can't see it.

 

With a puzzle cache, if for example it has errors in it, or has multiple solutions, most would agree it's a "bad" puzzle. Then there is the subjective part. The puzzles I love the most give me a real "eureka" moment when I solve them. If a puzzle is based on a topic I find boring and requires lots of research, then I won't do it.

 

So, any cache (puzzle or otherwise) which takes extra time and isn't fun will feel like a waste of time. So just like I'll stop looking for that needle in a haystack as soon as I get bored, I'll stop looking at a puzzle when it ceases to be fun.

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When I first began caching I was frustrated by a couple local puzzle caches and eventually filtered them out. As time wore on my blast radius widened and I now have to travel far afield to visit a cache I haven't found. I recently went back to the first 2 puzzles that had frustrated me. One was archived and I solved the other and scored the cache. Satisfaction abounds. Puzzles still aren't my favorite, bit I would not go so far as to ban them. The filters on the quiery page are perfectly adept at removing them for me.

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Bad weather dont exist, only wrong cloathing selected for the day,

we go out ANY day, any where, we do not stop due to weather.

 

Well, I imagine if you were on the east coast in certain areas like New Jersey in the last week, you would have had an exception to this rule.

 

+1.

 

I am fortunate enough to have been at the outskirts of the storm here in the Newport area of Rhode Island. A short power lost and some lost shingles.

 

I did some caching on Tuesday, and even 20 miles West of me got hit quite back (but still not as bad as NJ).

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I wanted it hid a cache and noticed there was a multy nearby so asked the reviewer if the cords were OK. turns out the multy wasn't the issue it was a puzzle cache that was no near near the spot I was going to hid it and his puzzle is impossible for me to solve. The puzzle is just a bunch of shapes and symbols. How am I supposed to solve that?

Some puzzles contained on Mystery/Unknown cache pages are difficult. If you are struggling with it, you can ask the owner for a nudge directly. If you mention that you are trying to solve it so that you can work out a proximity issue for a cache you are trying to place, they could be more receptive to offering a nudge.

 

As you are getting used to playing the game by the rules, you will run into many things that might hang up your cache. Be patient, and work WITH your Reiviewer, not against. It goes a LONG way.

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I wanted it hid a cache and noticed there was a multy nearby so asked the reviewer if the cords were OK. turns out the multy wasn't the issue it was a puzzle cache that was no near near the spot I was going to hid it and his puzzle is impossible for me to solve. The puzzle is just a bunch of shapes and symbols. How am I supposed to solve that?
I don't want to take this thread off-topic, so I'll just point you to my most recent post on the topic:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=303664&view=findpost&p=5146522

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many puzzles are designed for one thing only

TO WASTE YOUR TIME !!

 

bullpuckey

 

I bet if you asked 100 puzzle cache owners if that was there intent when created a puzzle cache, not a single one of them would respond that wasting others time was their goal. More likely you'd get answers like wanting to create a little variety and that they created a puzzle cache because they enjoyed puzzle caches and/or wanted to create a cache for geocachers that enjoy doing puzzle caches.

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We're slowly wandering off topic here - but if you look at a puzzle cache listing, and it makes no sense whatsoever - and it's causing you a proximity issue with placing a cache of your own - open up a dialog with your reviewer, they will be generally happy to help. And as others have said, try contacting the cache owner.

 

As a puzzle cache setter, I have no intention of wasting anyone's time with a cache. There are some that in hindsight I've made too difficult, and over time I'll either tweak the difficulty or archive harder puzzle and place easier ones instead.

 

Sorry, I'll shut up now. I'm wandering off topic. Most of the on-topic points I would have made, have been said much better than I could have by others. :lol:

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The reviewer is not the issue when it comes to puzzle caches. I'm talking about puzzle caches that are written in like hieroglyphics :laughing:

Here's how we keep it on topic...

You said it was about a proximity issue you had with another cache. You are frustrated because you are having a hard time solving the puzzle so that you can find out where it is. This anecdote was provided as an example of why puzzles might need to be "archived", as per the OP.

 

The answer about Reviewers still stands. Partner with them if a mystery/unknown or multi provides a proximity alarm. Get in touch with the owner of the cache and ask for some help, and mention your proximity issue.

 

Thereby, your experience with "puzzles" sucks a little less. :anibad:

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I hate Traditional caches like this one. Can we just get rid of all Traditionals?

:rolleyes:

 

That's just silly, without traditionals you won't have geocaching, without puzzles you'll still have geocaching.

 

Let me clear a few things up:

 

I never ever had a proximity issue with a puzzle cache.

I do not believe i favorited any puzzle caches.

There is no particular puzzle cache that is bothering me.

I still believe puzzles have nothing to do with geocaching.

 

The best answer I heard to what they have to do with geocaching is

As I've said already, I think the game is better with puzzles.

 

Interesting discussions though.

Edited by Roman!
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Let me clear a few things up:

...

I do not believe i favorited any puzzle caches.

...

To clear up your clearing up, you have indeed favourited 5 puzzle caches, and they were true puzzles, not just Challenge caches or bonus caches. One was even a D5 named "Ultimate Puzzle Cache", though by the sounds of your log you never actually solved the puzzle.

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Let me clear a few things up:

...

I do not believe i favorited any puzzle caches.

...

To clear up your clearing up, you have indeed favourited 5 puzzle caches, and they were true puzzles, not just Challenge caches or bonus caches. One was even a D5 named "Ultimate Puzzle Cache", though by the sounds of your log you never actually solved the puzzle.

And that's more than 7% of the OPs favorite caches, while only 2% of his finds are ?s. :blink:

Edited by kanchan
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Let me clear a few things up:

...

I do not believe i favorited any puzzle caches.

...

To clear up your clearing up, you have indeed favourited 5 puzzle caches, and they were true puzzles, not just Challenge caches or bonus caches. One was even a D5 named "Ultimate Puzzle Cache", though by the sounds of your log you never actually solved the puzzle.

As that's more than 7% of the OPs favorite caches, while only 2% of his finds are ?s. :blink:

 

Ultimate I found by brute force and it completed my d/t grid thus the favorite. I solved nothing on that one.

 

Next?

Edited by Roman!
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Let me clear a few things up:

...

I do not believe i favorited any puzzle caches.

...

To clear up your clearing up, you have indeed favourited 5 puzzle caches, and they were true puzzles, not just Challenge caches or bonus caches. One was even a D5 named "Ultimate Puzzle Cache", though by the sounds of your log you never actually solved the puzzle.

As that's more than 7% of the OPs favorite caches, while only 2% of his finds are ?s. :blink:

 

Ultimate I found by brute force and it completed my d/t grid thus the favorite. I solved nothing on that one.

 

Next?

That is still a find and a favorite. :anitongue:

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Let me clear a few things up:

...

I do not believe i favorited any puzzle caches.

...

To clear up your clearing up, you have indeed favourited 5 puzzle caches, and they were true puzzles, not just Challenge caches or bonus caches. One was even a D5 named "Ultimate Puzzle Cache", though by the sounds of your log you never actually solved the puzzle.

As that's more than 7% of the OPs favorite caches, while only 2% of his finds are ?s. :blink:

 

Ultimate I found by brute force and it completed my d/t grid thus the favorite. I solved nothing on that one.

 

Next?

That is still a find and a favorite. :anitongue:

 

 

I did not like the puzzle, the favorite was going out in the pouring rain with a friend and a rough idea of where it was, getting soaked and after 40 or so minutes making the find that completed my grid. The puzzle had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

People spent hours on this puzzle sitting on their butts in front of the computer, note how I pointed out being outdoors even if it was raining.

Edited by Roman!
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