Good bye c:geo

[+Chrysalides]

Apparently scraping has several meanings, but you know exactly what the TOU means. The TOU is too broad for me.

I'd love to give c:geo some wriggle room, but the way I understand scraping and the TOU there isn't any. In any case, doesn't matter what we think, it's what Groundspeak thinks. Seems that Jeremy has pretty unequivocally said it is against the TOU.

[GR Mule]

Apparently scraping has several meanings, but you know exactly what the TOU means. The TOU is too broad for me.

I'd love to give c:geo some wriggle room, but the way I understand scraping and the TOU there isn't any. In any case, doesn't matter what we think, it's what Groundspeak thinks. Seems that Jeremy has pretty unequivocally said it is against the TOU.

 

And now we're back to my actual point, which is: If you know it is against the ToU (and now, having read this thread, you do), why wait for Groundspeak to wrest the app from your hands? Don't cling to dishonesty - be honorable, have integrity, if you care about this site and the activity it supports, don't use an app that breaks the rules. Uninstall it of your own volition and don't look back.

[John E Cache]

Apparently scraping has several meanings, but you know exactly what the TOU means. The TOU is too broad for me.

I'd love to give c:geo some wriggle room, but the way I understand scraping and the TOU there isn't any. In any case, doesn't matter what we think, it's what Groundspeak thinks. Seems that Jeremy has pretty unequivocally said it is against the TOU.

 

And now we're back to my actual point, which is: If you know it is against the ToU (and now, having read this thread, you do), why wait for Groundspeak to wrest the app from your hands? Don't cling to dishonesty - be honorable, have integrity, if you care about this site and the activity it supports, don't use an app that breaks the rules. Uninstall it of your own volition and don't look back.

On this we agree totally. I don' t cache much anymore so it is easy for me not to use it. I just fire it up every time I get a market update to see what new feature has been added. I also checked the download count until it maxed out at >250,000 downloads. The TOU is kind of like putting a "don't steal this car" bumper sticker on your car.

[+baloo&bd]

I'd love to give c:geo some wriggle room, but the way I understand scraping and the TOU there isn't any. In any case, doesn't matter what we think, it's what Groundspeak thinks. Seems that Jeremy has pretty unequivocally said it is against the TOU.

 

Carnero has said it is unequivocally within the ToU.

 

And now we're back to my actual point, which is: If you know it is against the ToU (and now, having read this thread, you do), why wait for Groundspeak to wrest the app from your hands? Don't cling to dishonesty - be honorable, have integrity, if you care about this site and the activity it supports, don't use an app that breaks the rules. Uninstall it of your own volition and don't look back.

 

That's what's great about the app, especially for those of us that are PM's and have the "official" app as well, we can stay within the ToU, be honest, honorable, have integrity, and the ability to use at least TWO apps that don't break the rules and do it without this false sense of superiority.

[+Chrysalides]

I'd love to give c:geo some wriggle room, but the way I understand scraping and the TOU there isn't any. In any case, doesn't matter what we think, it's what Groundspeak thinks. Seems that Jeremy has pretty unequivocally said it is against the TOU.

Carnero has said it is unequivocally within the ToU.

If it's between him and Jeremy, who do you think is in a better position to declare if it is within the TOU or not? After all, it is Groundspeak's TOU, not Carnero.

 

Personally, I think it is something the two parties need to figure out.

[jholly]

I'd love to give c:geo some wriggle room, but the way I understand scraping and the TOU there isn't any. In any case, doesn't matter what we think, it's what Groundspeak thinks. Seems that Jeremy has pretty unequivocally said it is against the TOU.

Carnero has said it is unequivocally within the ToU.

If it's between him and Jeremy, who do you think is in a better position to declare if it is within the TOU or not? After all, it is Groundspeak's TOU, not Carnero.

 

Personally, I think it is something the two parties need to figure out.

And if Canero has bailed like he claims it is then between GS and who ever decides to pick up the torch.

[7rxc]

I'm not taking the time to get up to date on the programming side of c:geo other than looking at the whole overall.

 

Question: Since some are taking up the project... As an interim measure, how hard would it be to disable/remove the 'live' feature for now and simply use a static display. That would allow users to continue using a 'legal and moral' version until such time as the API and the programmers figure out how to manage a 'legal' method to live map again. Who ever figures it out could then add it back in.

I have to assume that the various people continuing the software development will try to pick up access to the developer API version as offered to Carnero.

 

I don't get to program much anymore, but the whole thing of 'live' seems similar to what was used in game software when I was involved. You need to have data ready for your immediate location, plus enough to allow for a move in any direction, then update the next areas based on the direction and velocity, based on the viewers Field of View. Since Google provides the map updates, I see it as only needing to establish 'rules' for how much and how often from the GS side. The device can work out direction and velocity as a normal GPS function and would need to use that to request the new data block (perhaps based on a center of block coordinate).

 

I just don't know enough about the hardware or softwares involved these days, but the method of approach seems easy enough based on what little I've read.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+insx]

[deleted]

Edited July 3, 2011 by insx

[+fadattf]

Groundspeak should care a bit about their users and shouldn't fight c:geo.

Since they are not able to provide an API parsing the website is the only way to get data out of the system.

 

If Groundspeak would think a bit ahead they should contact the developer make some deal with him and sell the application as an official supportet Software (maybe a free version with less features and a paid version with all features). I'm sure a lot of people would spend some bucks on that application.

But I never would spend one cent to the official app - sorry to tell, but it's crapy.

 

c:geo makes geocaching much more fun than without it!

[Master Shifu]

how hard would it be to disable/remove the 'live' feature for now and simply use a static display. That would allow users to continue using a 'legal and moral' version until such time as the API and the programmers figure out how to manage a 'legal' method to live map again.

 

I have a feeling that as soon as the "live map" function doesn't work anymore people will quite using c:geo... that's the only reason people use it. That and you can log your cache find on the site as soon as you put it back. If they took it away, and then added it back people would eventually come back to it if the official GS app didn't get their "live map" function working first. But I dont see people using it anymore if the live map stops working, even for a week.

[+northernpenguin]

Groundspeak should care a bit about their users and shouldn't fight c:geo.

Since they are not able to provide an API parsing the website is the only way to get data out of the system.

 

 

Groundspeak does care about their users. All of them. The users running c:geo on Android are a subset of all the users on Geocaching.com. There may be many, but they are not all users.

 

Many of us remember the days when the site was as solid as a Faberge Egg rolling down a flight of stairs. Frequent failures on Friday afternoons (PQ downloads) and Sunday afternoons (logging of finds). Those days are long gone now, thanks to no small amount of work at the Lillypad. If Groundspeak wants to ban web scraping programs / competing sites / macros / users .... I'm all for that if it keeps the site up and running.

 

There is an API on the way which will allow the current Groundspeak monopoly on live data (not necessarily radar) apps to come to an end. You will be able to have cache data at your fingertips without having to buy the Groundspeak branded app. This is huge - both as a great new feature for the userbase, and as an amount of work to implement. One does not sit down and crank out a database API during their morning coffee break. It requires a boat load of testing too, lest we return to see the site go down every Saturday morning when the smartphones log in.

 

Let them finish baking it.

 

The usual arguments I see* for c:geo fall into one of two camps:

 

"I want live radar! Nobody else implements it!"

Well, that's due to technical limitations and the TOS. This may go away depending on how many API calls are permitted per hour, or this may not. Clever programmers abound and there will most likely have something close appear shortly after the API. Or not. Implementing it via web scraping isn't a good thing to hook your wagon to, be that programmer or smartphone user. I have "Live Radar" on my smartphone by simply putting 10 1000 cache PQs on the phone. Really, it's a rare day that I drive past 10,000 active caches. So I might miss a FTF here or there. That's what notification alerts are for.

 

"I don't want to use PQs, PQs are only available to Premium Members"/"The API will only be available to premium members"

Well, I'm a paying Premium Member. The site isn't free to run and using a web scraping app to skirt the PM annual fee is just flat out dishonest in my eyes. You are a leach if this is your sole reason for rallying behind a web scraping app. If you're paying the PM fee what I just said doesn't apply to you - and you shouldn't fret about the API being closed to Premium Members anyway. Other sites, like Flickr, Dropbox, Runkeeper all have features that are available for people who are willing to shell out a few bucks a year to keep the lights on and the employees fed. Until I see Jeremy arriving at events in a gold plated helicopter I'm going to suggest people buy Premium Memberships if nothing else to support the site. Getting access to the API early is one way Groundspeak gives back to their supporters.

 

* That I see means that's not all the reasons, but it's what I've been seeing with my eyes. Feel free to add more.

[+reedkickball]

I loved c:geo, I hate to see it go. Hopefully a group of developers will work to keep it alive.

 

I'm trying to use the geocaching.com app again, but continuously get the "force close" errors. I log the problems online, but they never get resolved. I just wish Groundspeak would put some effort behind the development of the geocaching.com app.

 

I may try geohunter or geobeagle, however instantaneous access to the database is what I'm looking for. If I do PQ queries, I might as well load my Garmin.

 

I just want an app that can show me the current geocaches on a map, with the descriptions available. I'm willing to pay quite a bit for that (much more than the geocaching.com and android amount that I already pay for.)

 

I'm usually very pro-Groundspeak in almost every way, although I believe Groundspeak missed the boat on this one. c:geo was bringing in lots of new geocachers. Groundspeak had a chance to purchase an app for less than it probably cost to develop it.

 

This won't drive me from geocaching.com like it will for others, however geocaching for me won't be as spontaneous anymore. I'll have to go back to loading GPX files at least once a week again. My Garmin will get a workout again.

[+Bullygoat29]

I wonder if the biggest problem with the Groundspeak app isn't the app but some of the phones it's being used on.

Edited July 5, 2011 by bullygoat29

[+reedkickball]

I wonder if the biggest problem with the Groundspeak app isn't the app but some of the phones it's being used on.

 

I think that's an acceptable argument. However I have a Motorola Droid 2 and I have terrible problems. I don't consider that some weird offshoot of the Android OS.

[+northernpenguin]

I wonder if the biggest problem with the Groundspeak app isn't the app but some of the phones it's being used on.

 

I think that's an acceptable argument. However I have a Motorola Droid 2 and I have terrible problems. I don't consider that some weird offshoot of the Android OS.

 

Probably not the exact phone the developers used then... I'm assuming it's not rooted too. That's the problem with Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile/Phone 7, Palm development. You gotta test on each model of phone for each OS. That gets expensive fast. iOS you can get away with less, as there are only a few models in that line.

[+reedkickball]

I wonder if the biggest problem with the Groundspeak app isn't the app but some of the phones it's being used on.

 

I think that's an acceptable argument. However I have a Motorola Droid 2 and I have terrible problems. I don't consider that some weird offshoot of the Android OS.

 

Probably not the exact phone the developers used then... I'm assuming it's not rooted too. That's the problem with Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile/Phone 7, Palm development. You gotta test on each model of phone for each OS. That gets expensive fast. iOS you can get away with less, as there are only a few models in that line.

 

Not rooted. If they didn't use Motorola, I'd wonder what they're using. Other GPS based apps don't seem to have similiar problems.

[+northernpenguin]

I wonder if the biggest problem with the Groundspeak app isn't the app but some of the phones it's being used on.

 

I think that's an acceptable argument. However I have a Motorola Droid 2 and I have terrible problems. I don't consider that some weird offshoot of the Android OS.

 

Probably not the exact phone the developers used then... I'm assuming it's not rooted too. That's the problem with Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile/Phone 7, Palm development. You gotta test on each model of phone for each OS. That gets expensive fast. iOS you can get away with less, as there are only a few models in that line.

 

Not rooted. If they didn't use Motorola, I'd wonder what they're using. Other GPS based apps don't seem to have similiar problems.

 

For all we know, the carrier gave them a discount on HTC devices. Or perhaps they're waiting for the contracts to run out on their Nexus One's. But that's something for the Feedback site.

 

The new Groundspeak iPhone app just dropped today, and it uses the new API so progress is happening. Soon you'll have a whole bunch of developers trying to outdo each other with the API providing live data - and THEN the fun begins. That's when we see the real competitive design happening and clever programmers get rewarded. We will also hopefully see the devs pulled off API work and hopefully put back toward smartphone app development, and start smashing those bugs more frequently. I don't work at the Lillypad but I would imagine at this point it's all hands on deck for the API to get it done.

[+reedkickball]

I wonder if the biggest problem with the Groundspeak app isn't the app but some of the phones it's being used on.

 

I think that's an acceptable argument. However I have a Motorola Droid 2 and I have terrible problems. I don't consider that some weird offshoot of the Android OS.

 

Probably not the exact phone the developers used then... I'm assuming it's not rooted too. That's the problem with Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile/Phone 7, Palm development. You gotta test on each model of phone for each OS. That gets expensive fast. iOS you can get away with less, as there are only a few models in that line.

 

Not rooted. If they didn't use Motorola, I'd wonder what they're using. Other GPS based apps don't seem to have similiar problems.

 

For all we know, the carrier gave them a discount on HTC devices. Or perhaps they're waiting for the contracts to run out on their Nexus One's. But that's something for the Feedback site.

 

The new Groundspeak iPhone app just dropped today, and it uses the new API so progress is happening. Soon you'll have a whole bunch of developers trying to outdo each other with the API providing live data - and THEN the fun begins. That's when we see the real competitive design happening and clever programmers get rewarded. We will also hopefully see the devs pulled off API work and hopefully put back toward smartphone app development, and start smashing those bugs more frequently. I don't work at the Lillypad but I would imagine at this point it's all hands on deck for the API to get it done.

 

I really don't the think the excuse can be that it's different hardware(I work enough Android app developers to know that it's not). I think it's a convenient excuse to explain away the problems. I'd like to say that I know that it does or doesn't work on another setup, but don't know anyone else that purchased the app. The dozens of people I know, have (or now had) c:geo.

 

Hopefully the API does spur some competition, but if not, I'll just have to go back to being more organized.

[+northernpenguin]

 

I really don't the think the excuse can be that it's different hardware(I work enough Android app developers to know that it's not). I think it's a convenient excuse to explain away the problems. I'd like to say that I know that it does or doesn't work on another setup, but don't know anyone else that purchased the app. The dozens of people I know, have (or now had) c:geo.

 

Hopefully the API does spur some competition, but if not, I'll just have to go back to being more organized.

 

Different hardware IS a significant issue on mobile. Usually the devel API tries to insulate that sort of thing but it is there. On Android you have everything from different versions of Android, to different screen orientations/aspect ratios, to different vendor customizations (HTC Sense, Samsung, etc). Google is working on killing off that hardware fragmentation but as of today it still exists, and can wreck havoc on development. Don't get me started on the carriers that do bad things to aGPS and GPS *cough* Verizon *cough*.

 

Same issue is there on Blackberry (try writing a Geocaching app for, say, a Bold 9700, a Storm and a Pearl).

[Master Shifu]

Another issue that I’m sure not everyone is aware of is the fact the LOC cache files aren't as easy to get "on the go" when someone attempts to use one of the geocaching apps that doesn’t violate the TOS.

 

Programs like geobeagle and geohunter work by linking you to the GS website page were you can look up caches by your current location, just like you can on a normal desktop computer. You can select “check all” and it will download a DOC file with about 15-20 caches. But, the way the android web searcher(s) work and download files…. There’s an issue. The DOC files that are downloaded with an android will NOT work when synching with these programs. You have to download the DOC file from a computer, then mount your phone, then transfer the DOC file to you SDcard.

 

So, when using a non page scraping program you have to only pic ONE cache at a time and have it push it to your Google map. It’s defiantly a hassle to do this over and over for each cache. This is another reason people love c:geo.

[+northernpenguin]

Another issue that I’m sure not everyone is aware of is the fact the LOC cache files aren't as easy to get "on the go" when someone attempts to use one of the geocaching apps that doesn’t violate the TOS.

 

Programs like geobeagle and geohunter work by linking you to the GS website page were you can look up caches by your current location, just like you can on a normal desktop computer. You can select “check all” and it will download a DOC file with about 15-20 caches. But, the way the android web searcher(s) work and download files…. There’s an issue. The DOC files that are downloaded with an android will NOT work when synching with these programs. You have to download the DOC file from a computer, then mount your phone, then transfer the DOC file to you SDcard.

 

So, when using a non page scraping program you have to only pic ONE cache at a time and have it push it to your Google map. It’s defiantly a hassle to do this over and over for each cache. This is another reason people love c:geo.

 

And you've just illustrated a good reason to get a Premium Membership. I create and download PQs from my smartphone "on the fly" all the time, and typically use Geosphere instead of the official app. That doesn't scrape, or violate the TOS. I mentioned above, I don't like the idea that a basic member gets a premium feature via web scraping.

[Master Shifu]

Another issue that I’m sure not everyone is aware of is the fact the LOC cache files aren't as easy to get "on the go" when someone attempts to use one of the geocaching apps that doesn’t violate the TOS.

 

Programs like geobeagle and geohunter work by linking you to the GS website page were you can look up caches by your current location, just like you can on a normal desktop computer. You can select “check all” and it will download a DOC file with about 15-20 caches. But, the way the android web searcher(s) work and download files…. There’s an issue. The DOC files that are downloaded with an android will NOT work when synching with these programs. You have to download the DOC file from a computer, then mount your phone, then transfer the DOC file to you SDcard.

 

So, when using a non page scraping program you have to only pic ONE cache at a time and have it push it to your Google map. It’s defiantly a hassle to do this over and over for each cache. This is another reason people love c:geo.

 

And you've just illustrated a good reason to get a Premium Membership. I create and download PQs from my smartphone "on the fly" all the time, and typically use Geosphere instead of the official app. That doesn't scrape, or violate the TOS. I mentioned above, I don't like the idea that a basic member gets a premium feature via web scraping.

 

I think most people that use c:geo and fall in love with the sport will eventually get a premium membership. But people aren't going to pay 30 bucks for something they have never tried out to even see if they like it. I'm new to this whole thing and will be getting a membership soon, but needed to try it out first to see if this something I liked enough to stick with. c:geo brought me to geocaching and it has done the same for many others. I'm willing to bet the program has added quite a lot of money to GS pocket since it was released. It's a popular and easy to use program that brings in new players and eventually revenue from those players.

[Master Shifu]

As many have also stated, when people first hear about geocaching and want to try it out they go to the android market place and do a search for "geocaching". c:geo is the first app that shows up, and it has the best reviews. So naturally everyone is going to pick that app.

 

People aren't picking it because of it's live maps and page scraping ability, or because their cheap and trying to get something for free.... they pick it because their curious about geocaching and it's the first thing in their face.

 

If the first thing that showed up was a 10 dollar app, many people prob wouldn't even check the game out. I fully understand peoples beef with the program, but you can't deny the fact that it's brought people to the game and in return money down the line for GS.

[+Chrysalides]

People aren't picking it because of it's live maps and page scraping ability, or because their cheap and trying to get something for free.... they pick it because their curious about geocaching and it's the first thing in their face.

 

If the first thing that showed up was a 10 dollar app, many people prob wouldn't even check the game out.

Good point there. People who were introduced to the game through their smartphone because of the app, and find out about the gc.com after that, would react poorly if they feel that the app is getting shut down because of gc.com.

[+northernpenguin]

People aren't picking it because of it's live maps and page scraping ability, or because their cheap and trying to get something for free.... they pick it because their curious about geocaching and it's the first thing in their face.

 

If the first thing that showed up was a 10 dollar app, many people prob wouldn't even check the game out.

Good point there. People who were introduced to the game through their smartphone because of the app, and find out about the gc.com after that, would react poorly if they feel that the app is getting shut down because of gc.com.

 

Yup, this one makes more sense to me. (Though I do tire from having the other two arguments beaten into the feedback site repeatedly)

 

I see Groundspeak hasn't made a Geocaching Lite app for Android either like they did for iPhone users. Serious misstep here if I'm not missing something.

 

The $10 price thing doesn't faze me much these days (Navigon set me back $40...), but I can see how it would turn off a relative newcomer to the game. Hopefully, as time goes on the API enabled applications can fill the void a bit.

 

c:geo will likely suffer the same fate as other apps that are no longer maintained (unless development continues with the new people), new users will start voting it down as they find it doesn't work. Makes me wonder though, if someone is picking up support, can the app be transferred to them in the Google Android marketplace - or will they be starting over with the app ranking.

 

Also reminds me that Groundspeak better make nice with either the smartphone new user crowd, or get back in bed with Garmin! They do need to provide a method for Android and Windows Phone (and while I'm at it Blackberry, WebOS) users to "try out" the service without resorting to a pen and paper.

[Master Shifu]

People aren't picking it because of it's live maps and page scraping ability, or because their cheap and trying to get something for free.... they pick it because their curious about geocaching and it's the first thing in their face.

 

If the first thing that showed up was a 10 dollar app, many people prob wouldn't even check the game out.

Good point there. People who were introduced to the game through their smartphone because of the app, and find out about the gc.com after that, would react poorly if they feel that the app is getting shut down because of gc.com.

Makes me wonder though, if someone is picking up support, can the app be transferred to them in the Google Android marketplace - or will they be starting over with the app ranking.

 

Also reminds me that Groundspeak better make nice with either the smartphone new user crowd, or get back in bed with Garmin! They do need to provide a method for Android and Windows Phone (and while I'm at it Blackberry, WebOS) users to "try out" the service without resorting to a pen and paper.

 

I've wondered that myself.. maybe even the name of the app will have to change (something like b:geo so people know it's the same thing).

 

Also, how are the apps for the windows and blacknerry users? I'm strickly android, but I do have firends that run other OS's.

[+Vulcan1600]

 

I think most people that use c:geo and fall in love with the sport will eventually get a premium membership. But people aren't going to pay 30 bucks for something they have never tried out to even see if they like it. I'm new to this whole thing and will be getting a membership soon, but needed to try it out first to see if this something I liked enough to stick with. c:geo brought me to geocaching and it has done the same for many others. I'm willing to bet the program has added quite a lot of money to GS pocket since it was released. It's a popular and easy to use program that brings in new players and eventually revenue from those players.

Put me in the category that I discovered c:geo in the end of 2009 when I got my Droid. Prior to that I dabbled in a horrible geocaching program for the Blackberry. When I saw how great c:geo was and I found a few caches that took me directly to GZ, I was hooked. Thanks to c:geo I have spent $60 for premium membership. I'm sure I'm not the only one either. It would probably be staggering the number of new premium members are on here as a direct result of c:geo.

[+ARHogFanz]

Ok, I'm not overly technically savy and am somewhat confused about what is going on. Please help me understand. Here's my situation:

I started caching back in '06, had an old Garmin gpsr and printed off the info for each of the caches. I stopped caching after about 6 months, partially due to the fact that I had to plan my caches & print off all the info, which was a pain.

 

Fastforward 5 years. I found (don't remember what caused me to do so) c:geo, looked at the reviews and downloaded it. Since April, I've begun caching again with a venegeance, largely due to the app. I love the live map option because it allows me to cache without any planning. If I'm out running errands & I want to grab a cache or two, boom the info's there. When I get to the general vicinity of the cache & it's time to get out of the cachemobile, I switch over to the navigate radar option & go in for the grab. I also like being able to log my finds right then & there. In short, I love everything about c:geo; it's brought me back to the sport, if you will. I've gone from maybe a dozen finds to almost 150 in less than 3 months and cache every chance I get.

 

After reading through much of this thread, it sounds like I'm unknowingly in violation of some sort of Groundspeak rules because I'm not using their official app. It sounds like (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the official app has problems and it doesn't have the live map option, which is probably my favorite feature about c:geo. It sounds like Groundspeak is basically going to make us pay for something that doesn't work as well as what we've got for free. I don't mind paying, don't get me wrong. However, why should we pay for what appears (at least to my confused mind) to be an inferior product?

 

I'd like to become a premium member. However, I haven't worked in a year. Yes, I could spend the $30 but right now, I'm prioritizing where my money needs to go. For now, I need to spend that $30 on something that I need, rather than on something that I want. Hopefully in the next couple of months, that will change when I go back to work. I have no idea what these "pocket queries" are that come with being a premium member or how they work. What's the difference between a pocket query and the live map? Will they allow me to remain paperless and spontaneous? Can I still use my Droid instead of having to invest in a separate gpsr?

 

So is c:geo going away & if so, when? I used it today and it was fine. Why (in simple, non-technical terms) is c:geo going away & when/how will we know it's gone? Will it just stop working? What are the similarities & differences between c:geo and the official app?

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this post and answer my questions. I love caching and love introducing new people to it.

Melissa

[robertlipe]

Here comes one of those unpopular moderator notes.

 

People keep writing in this thread like they think Groundspeak is reading this group. I have no reason to think that they're reading the comments posted to a thread about an app in a forum they don't monitor about an app they've always had a legal beef with.

 

Feature requests and complaints about Groundspeak's app should go to http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75279-geocaching-for-android

Feature requests and complaints about c:geo should go to the developer of c:geo...who just announced he's leaving the biz.

 

This thread has turned into a litany of grumbling that's unlikely to be read by anyone that can address the issues and is dangerously close to being closed.

[+fadattf]

Groundspeak should care a bit about their users and shouldn't fight c:geo.

Since they are not able to provide an API parsing the website is the only way to get data out of the system.

 

 

The usual arguments I see* for c:geo fall into one of two camps:

 

"I want live radar! Nobody else implements it!"

"I don't want to use PQs, PQs are only available to Premium Members"/"The API will only be available to premium members"

 

I've never used live radar (you mean the live map) nor the PQ (and I am a premium member).

I just use c:geo for a paperless caching.

I don't want to print out all caches I'd like to visit.

 

The things I use on c:geo:

- offline store (to use it without internet ANDi use it as a "caches I like to do"-list)

- of course for finding the cache (using the radar app)

- the search function

 

But c:geo is a lightweight app - not bloatet, easy to use, it works, it has a lot of updates (okay, many because GS has changed something in the html-code).

 

So as far as I've seen now the main problem of GS is the traffic.

But in these times it should not be such a big problem to ensure that loading times are not to bad.

Of course that costs some bucks. So why does GS not try to get some cash in. What about online advertisements (that small text ads from a very well known search engine).

I have no idea how many pageimpressions GS has, but I think with some well placed ads they can make 10.000US$+ a month.

 

Offtopic: there was a site in Europa that was closed these days because they had listed links to movies. They made 10.000.000€+ in over one year just by ads!

 

btw: as far as I've heard c:geo is beeing developed further by the community and there are already some updates.

 

 

Here comes one of those unpopular moderator notes.

This thread has turned into a litany of grumbling that's unlikely to be read by anyone that can address the issues and is dangerously close to being closed.

But I'm sure there are a lot of people reading that thread. So why close it.

It's not offtopic - it's just grumbling & criticism.

Is criticism such a bad thing??

Edited July 7, 2011 by fadattf

[+pa79]

People keep writing in this thread like they think Groundspeak is reading this group. I have no reason to think that they're reading the comments posted to a thread about an app in a forum they don't monitor about an app they've always had a legal beef with.

 

I was under the impression that this is the official Groundspeak forum. They should at least be aware of what's going on here.

[+Tokig]

Here comes one of those unpopular moderator notes.

 

People keep writing in this thread like they think Groundspeak is reading this group. I have no reason to think that they're reading the comments posted to a thread about an app in a forum they don't monitor about an app they've always had a legal beef with.

 

Feature requests and complaints about Groundspeak's app should go to http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75279-geocaching-for-android

Feature requests and complaints about c:geo should go to the developer of c:geo...who just announced he's leaving the biz.

 

This thread has turned into a litany of grumbling that's unlikely to be read by anyone that can address the issues and is dangerously close to being closed.

 

If you want to make an application better, it is a good time to read the forum about what your members want, rather than to silence us.

[+insx]

I was under the impression that this is the official Groundspeak forum. They should at least be aware of what's going on here.

 

Wasn't that the point? It's a Groundspeak forum, not a forum to discuss 'illegal' 3rd party apps ad infinitum.

Edited July 7, 2011 by insx

[+northernpenguin]

Groundspeak should care a bit about their users and shouldn't fight c:geo.

Since they are not able to provide an API parsing the website is the only way to get data out of the system.

 

 

The usual arguments I see* for c:geo fall into one of two camps:

 

"I want live radar! Nobody else implements it!"

"I don't want to use PQs, PQs are only available to Premium Members"/"The API will only be available to premium members"

 

I've never used live radar (you mean the live map) nor the PQ (and I am a premium member).

I just use c:geo for a paperless caching.

I don't want to print out all caches I'd like to visit.

 

The things I use on c:geo:

- offline store (to use it without internet ANDi use it as a "caches I like to do"-list)

- of course for finding the cache (using the radar app)

- the search function

 

But c:geo is a lightweight app - not bloatet, easy to use, it works, it has a lot of updates (okay, many because GS has changed something in the html-code).

 

So you're saying c:geo's users are special? The TOS doesn't apply?

 

The TOS compliant way to use paperless caching today is either: 1) use PQs with a PQ based app, or 2) use the official GS app.

 

I don't use the GS app on my iPhone, I use Geosphere. That means I load PQs into it, and get things similar to the "live map" without bashing the hell out of the GS WWW servers (see my earlier calculations that show the live map potentially hitting the GS servers 24,000 times an hour for 100 nearby caches (updating every 15 seconds, without caching the data, 100 caches visible on the map) .... and now multiply that by 250,000 downloads of the c:geo app. If everyone logged in and fired up the live map at the same time, you're potentially talking 6,000,000,000 page loads for that hour. That kind of hit would most likely mean problems for the site, and that's just 250,000 users. Now shove that into an API call and you're down to 240 API requests for a really badly written app, and 60,000,000 API calls over the hour (for 250,000 users at once) which is a bit easier on the server. Plus, it's likely a different server and you don't see the home page for geocaching.com go down for a few users.

 

PQ based apps also let you cache paperless, without internet access. You need a bit of internet to load PQs on, but you need that to scrape with c:geo too. Once the API launches there will be dozens of apps with "live data".

 

The one exception to this is c:geo, as the author abandoned the product, I'm not sure the new maintainers will have an API ready c:geo at the start .... mainly because those new authors I expect will have more difficulty getting in touch with GS to request API access (and for GS to confirm that group is the new maintainer of the 'official' c:geo - now that c:geo is open sourced you may expect to see a dozen variants of it pop up too, with mixed quality results).

[+insx]

I know it's not as easy as c:geo's live map but I have been known to create a PQ via my phone's browser, have it emailed to my phone and then import into Georg from my phone's email app. Hey presto - 500 local caches on a live map.

[+ChileHead]

People keep writing in this thread like they think Groundspeak is reading this group. I have no reason to think that they're reading the comments posted to a thread about an app in a forum they don't monitor about an app they've always had a legal beef with.

 

I was under the impression that this is the official Groundspeak forum. They should at least be aware of what's going on here.

 

The feedback site is what should be used to give feedback directly to Groundspeak. I believe a number of items have been submitted already for c:geo

[Master Shifu]

Feature requests and complaints about Groundspeak's app should go to http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75279-geocaching-for-android

Feature requests and complaints about c:geo should go to the developer of c:geo...who just announced he's leaving the biz.

 

This thread has turned into a litany of grumbling that's unlikely to be read by anyone that can address the issues and is dangerously close to being closed.

 

I don’t know why it would be closed; it is located in the correct place on the forum that's been provided for members... "GPS & Technology". People are discussing what they like and dislike about a form of GPS Technology. Just because you don’t like the comments doesn't mean it should be closed. Would you close a thread in the same section that was about how amazing the GS Android App is? Cause if you would, then by all means close this one to stay consistent. But don’t close it just because you don’t like the comments.

 

It's not like anyone is using foul language or posting inappropriate pictures. People might be misinformed and upset about issues, but I think many people are learning about some of GS’s rules and regulations and also realizing the advantages of purchasing a premium membership. Like I said before, I overreacted about the c:geo news just like many people in this forum. But in the process of reading this whole thread I have learned a lot about premium membership, pocket queries, and other member’s feelings about how c:geo is affecting the game and GS as a whole.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Master Shifu

[+GeoBain]

I've been using the official app pretty much since it first came out. It had its flaws for a while. But after about the second update it became a decent app. I have used cgeo as well. But I didn't like the fact that it would fail after site updates. I'd be out caching with friends using cgeo and I'd be the only one able to pull up caches since I have the GS app.

 

A couple of them finally ponied up the cash for the GS one so they didn't have to worry about downtime either.

 

I don't understand all the angst towards GS for essentially enforcing their TOU and protecting their business.

[Master Shifu]

Yeah, I've been noticing some issues with the was c:geo performs. A few times its been about 100 feet off the mark. Had to open up another app to find the cache. Most of the time it runs fine, but when its off, its more than just a little.

[+Chrysalides]

I've been using the official app pretty much since it first came out. It had its flaws for a while. But after about the second update it became a decent app. I have used cgeo as well. But I didn't like the fact that it would fail after site updates. I'd be out caching with friends using cgeo and I'd be the only one able to pull up caches since I have the GS app.

Well, obviously the official app doesn't work since you have no finds

 

(yes, I do read drawkcab, and that Avatar looks familiar, vaguely wrong but I can't quite put my finger on it )

[Agrajag27]

I'm a brand-new entrant so I wanted to share my views on this.

 

I've spent hundreds on apps for my phone but $10 for an app was a bit much especially when you read rather questionable reviews of the app.

 

I then found lots of pointers to c.geo. I downloaded it. I went on two hunts and didn't find the first but found the second. The second one came about only due to c.geo having a live list of caches and thus we bounced here once we realized we weren't going to find this one before the light ran out.

 

I'm an old tech guy with lots of experience coding, managing coders (in the games an multimedia industries) and in network architecture. I now do marketing. My point is that all of that tells me that this situation is not a good one. Had I know about the strife and chaos going on with this hobby I'd have avoided it entirely.

 

Groundspeak has the data and it appears they're holding it hostage (in my view) and forcing people that want to experience this hobby to pony up for a website user interface that's confusing to newbies and for an app that is clearly inferior to other entries including free ones.

 

I come from the small business side and it's clear Groundspeak is not making a lot so resources are tight but that's no excuse for creating an untenable situation of making new entrants feel as if they need to jump through fire-laden hoops to enjoy this hobby. That's exactly how I felt getting started. I owe c.geo for making my first experience a fun one. If anything perhaps Groundspeak should have a chat with the dev of c.geo and work out some sort of arrangement unless their view is that he's unstable and, based on his blog entry, I wouldn't exactly rule that out. The bottom line is that they have an app that clearly isn't meeting the needs of many and they're charging a premium for it while also making it pretty necessary to pay for a premium membership here. That doesn't put people in the best mindset starting out. The last thing they need added to this is strife and that's what I'm seeing.

 

Phew. Now back to trying to figure out how best to proceed.

 

Geez, all I wanted was an app that could take my zip code and load up all the local caches (without having to first feed it) and then go off hunting. Is that really asking for too much?

[+ecanderson]

Yeah, I've been noticing some issues with the was c:geo performs. A few times its been about 100 feet off the mark. Had to open up another app to find the cache. Most of the time it runs fine, but when its off, its more than just a little.

You're most likely describing a platform problem (your phone), not a c:geo problem. We've finally convinced one of the local youngsters here to stop trying to place caches with his.

[Master Shifu]

Yeah, I've been noticing some issues with the was c:geo performs. A few times its been about 100 feet off the mark. Had to open up another app to find the cache. Most of the time it runs fine, but when its off, its more than just a little.

You're most likely describing a platform problem (your phone), not a c:geo problem. We've finally convinced one of the local youngsters here to stop trying to place caches with his.

 

If it was an issue with my phone, then why would I be able to open the GS app or geohunter and suddlenly be able to see the correct location?

[+ecanderson]

Yeah, I've been noticing some issues with the was c:geo performs. A few times its been about 100 feet off the mark. Had to open up another app to find the cache. Most of the time it runs fine, but when its off, its more than just a little.

You're most likely describing a platform problem (your phone), not a c:geo problem. We've finally convinced one of the local youngsters here to stop trying to place caches with his.

 

If it was an issue with my phone, then why would I be able to open the GS app or geohunter and suddlenly be able to see the correct location?

I'm not 100% clear what "see the correct location" means, unless you are saying that the distance and bearing to the target changes when you switch back and forth between applications. What happens when you switch back to c:geo under such circumstances?

 

Within a single application, the calculation of the distance is a function of current vs. target coordinates, and should be a very straightforward thing that should either work or not work on a consistent basis. There are three ways this calculation can malfunction

 

(a) current coordinates as read or interpreted are incorrect

( target coordinates as read or interpreted are incorrect

© the algorithm used to compute the difference between (a) and ( is variable - the code is changing itself?

 

I haven't noted anyone else mentioning this in this or other c:geo threads. A 100' error, even on an exceptional basis, should have garnered quite a few complaints.

[+insx]

Geez, all I wanted was an app that could take my zip code and load up all the local caches (without having to first feed it) and then go off hunting. Is that really asking for too much?

 

The official app will do just fine then. It's amazing that other apps are sold so cheaply that $10 seems like a lot.

[Agrajag27]

Geez, all I wanted was an app that could take my zip code and load up all the local caches (without having to first feed it) and then go off hunting. Is that really asking for too much?

 

The official app will do just fine then. It's amazing that other apps are sold so cheaply that $10 seems like a lot.

 

This isn't a PC. That's the difference. The business model and metrics clearly shows you can make a lot more money in the volume business than on charging a higher amount and limiting your sales. Imagine if this was $1.99. How many people do you think would gripe?

 

I bought it last night but after much gritting of teeth. See Weatherbug for a classic success example. They were charging $30 for a PC app about the weather and finding it hard to get anywhere. Then they went to the cheap phone model and now they're everywhere and making a great income. I don't care how big the target audience is. Reaching a higher percentage of them via a lower price in most every analysis results in more sales and higher profit. I will also say, as the new kid on the block, that it's disappointing to see so little response to this thread from the people behind Geocaching. If this is their business and they're not Google (too big to be able to provide the personal touch) then they should be all over this posting and reassuring people.

[+northernpenguin]

Geez, all I wanted was an app that could take my zip code and load up all the local caches (without having to first feed it) and then go off hunting. Is that really asking for too much?

 

The official app will do just fine then. It's amazing that other apps are sold so cheaply that $10 seems like a lot.

 

This isn't a PC. That's the difference. The business model and metrics clearly shows you can make a lot more money in the volume business than on charging a higher amount and limiting your sales. Imagine if this was $1.99. How many people do you think would gripe?

 

I bought it last night but after much gritting of teeth. See Weatherbug for a classic success example. They were charging $30 for a PC app about the weather and finding it hard to get anywhere. Then they went to the cheap phone model and now they're everywhere and making a great income. I don't care how big the target audience is. Reaching a higher percentage of them via a lower price in most every analysis results in more sales and higher profit. I will also say, as the new kid on the block, that it's disappointing to see so little response to this thread from the people behind Geocaching. If this is their business and they're not Google (too big to be able to provide the personal touch) then they should be all over this posting and reassuring people.

 

If it was a PC app it would be $59

 

While I get that volume sales does work, keep in mind there's a lot less people interested in finding Tupperware in the woods (about 1 million, only some of which own smartphones) than there are interested in tomorrow's weather (about 6 billion, only some of which have smart phones).

 

$10 is less than I typically spend on a tank of gas for a caching day. It's also less than the typical SIM card cost for that $500 smart phone.

[+fadattf]

So you're saying c:geo's users are special? The TOS doesn't apply?

No.

 

I can see that there could be a traffic problem with the live radar part of c:geo.

But I'm sure if GS would speak with the developer they could have find a solution.

Because:

a) the developer could have changed the refresh rate

b ) could habe built in a caching system

c) GS could configer the server to accept only a number of requests per minute.

d) GS could put the map things on its own server - so it doesn't affect the mail server.

e) the developer has statet he had access to the api - but it's only a very basic one

 

I've never used the live radar and I'm not sure if many people do use it.

Edited July 8, 2011 by fadattf

[Master Shifu]

Yeah, I've been noticing some issues with the was c:geo performs. A few times its been about 100 feet off the mark. Had to open up another app to find the cache. Most of the time it runs fine, but when its off, its more than just a little.

You're most likely describing a platform problem (your phone), not a c:geo problem. We've finally convinced one of the local youngsters here to stop trying to place caches with his.

 

If it was an issue with my phone, then why would I be able to open the GS app or geohunter and suddlenly be able to see the correct location?

I'm not 100% clear what "see the correct location" means, unless you are saying that the distance and bearing to the target changes when you switch back and forth between applications. What happens when you switch back to c:geo under such circumstances?

 

Within a single application, the calculation of the distance is a function of current vs. target coordinates, and should be a very straightforward thing that should either work or not work on a consistent basis. There are three ways this calculation can malfunction

 

(a) current coordinates as read or interpreted are incorrect

( target coordinates as read or interpreted are incorrect

© the algorithm used to compute the difference between (a) and ( is variable - the code is changing itself?

 

I haven't noted anyone else mentioning this in this or other c:geo threads. A 100' error, even on an exceptional basis, should have garnered quite a few complaints.

 

All of the android app used the Google map; they don’t make their own map that the app functions with. All the apps do it put a little icon on the Google map were the cache is located. A few times wile using c:geo the icon of the location was off. Once it was placed about 100-150 feet in to the water of the bay of San Diego (obviously this is incorrect), so I opened geohunter and it had the same cache located on the edge on the rocks by the water.... I then found the cache. Another time c:geo had the icon of the cache located in the middle of someone’s house; this also can't be so I fired up geobeagle. geobeagle had the same cache located about 100 feet south in a back ally; I then found the cache.

 

Not sure why this is,. I’ve never had c:geo show a cache location in the incorrect place before. Most of the time it's always right. I'm not saying the app doesn't work anymore, I’m just saying I noticed some resent weird issues with it. I've used it sense and it worked just fine.

 

If the issue was with my GPS or phone (which all app used the same map...Google map) then all apps would of have the cache located in the incorrect place.

[+ecanderson]

 

If the issue was with my GPS or phone (which all app used the same map...Google map) then all apps would of have the cache located in the incorrect place.

Unless your first attempt was while the phone was still trying to get a decent satellite lock, and by the time you'd switched applications, it had that sorted out. That's why I was wondering if you'd ever taken time to switch *back* to c:geo after trying one of the other applications.