Why all the torn zip-locks?

[+Em Space]

Out caching yesterday, I started to wonder about the bags we all rely upon to keep logbooks dry. It seems that if the zip-lock isn't absolutely brand-new, it's torn or punctured in some way.

 

I guess I understand the punctures--they must come from people putting pens and pencils in the bag, and then manhandling the bag back into the cache without taking any care to avoid poking the instrument through the bag.

 

The tears are a bit more of a mystery to me. I find it very easy to open a bag without damaging it, and it seems that any modern human should also have this skill. Yet the bags look like someone took the opening in both hands and pulled it open with the full strength of their arms.

 

Both of these damage types might come from a cacher in a hurry, I suppose. But my caching experiences haven't included this sort of desperation to get in and get out in a matter of seconds.

 

Is it expecting too much for the bags to last a few months with their water-resistance intact? Am I wrong when I think gently opening a zip-lock, carefully closing it, and putting it into the cache without stabbing it with a pencil are all easy things to do?

Edited August 22, 2010 by Em Space

[jholly]

 

Is it expecting too much for the bags to last a few months with their water-resistance intact? Am I wrong when I think gently opening a zip-lock, carefully closing it, and putting it into the cache without stabbing it with a pencil are all easy things to do?

 

yes, yes

[+Viajero Perdido]

Freezer-grade ziplocs, please. They're a world of difference.

 

Pencils are murder on ziplocs. Why does a pencil need to stay dry anyway?

 

BTW, I never use ziplocs inside my Lock-n-Lock cache containers. The container does such a great job of keeping water out that the ziploc isn't needed, and then I don't have to worry about the ziploc corner getting caught in the container seal, which will let in water.

[Tahosa and Sons]

Put them in a ammo box and they work just fine.

[+gpsfun]

Bear in mind that there are many types and brands of resealable bags. At the high end you may find some that are designated for freezer use and some others with built-in zippers, and they will have the most durability.

 

With that said, they are all destined to fail in a very short time in comparison to lock and lock style containers and ammo cans. I attempt to be careful with the contents of a cache, but I have damaged many resealable bags. Haven't broke a lock and lock style container or an ammo can yet, though. (I probably just jinxed the next one.)

[+Zwack_&_Irish_Eyes]

I suspect that most ziploc bags are not designed to be opened and closed hundreds of times over the course of months... The seams seem to weaken eventually and just give with little to no effort.

 

Z.

[Clan Riffster]

I suspect that most ziploc bags are not designed to be opened and closed hundreds of times over the course of months.

If I had to wager, I'd say this was the number one cause of baggie failure.

Number two, (in my book), would be papercuts. More prevalent in micros, as the logs are often squeezed in pretty tight.

Number three would be pokes from pens & pencils.

Number four would be damage caused by swag.

Number five would be careless cachers manhandling them.

 

Hence my mantra: "If you must use a ziplock, your container has already failed at a very basic level"

[+narcissa]

In addition to the obvious pointy object problem, Ziplock bags in geocaches are subject to temperature changes, moisture, exposure to UV light, and constant handling, all factors that change and weaken the plastic. If you compare a new baggy to one that's been in a cache for a while, you can feel and see the difference. Older baggies get kind of rough and sometimes the plastic becomes cloudy.

[+Chokecherry]

Some people also pick baggies too small to hold what they're trying to fit in there. I just fought a battle with a baggie in a geocache trying to get that silly thing sealed. Combine that with cold winter weather and you get some brittle baggies that tear easily.

[+narcissa]

Some people also pick baggies too small to hold what they're trying to fit in there. I just fought a battle with a baggie in a geocache trying to get that silly thing sealed. Combine that with cold winter weather and you get some brittle baggies that tear easily.

 

Ugh, the stupid little craft baggies that split along the side seams.

[+power69]

Why does a pencil need to stay dry anyway?

Around here pencils don't even stay in the cache long enough to get wet. I think theres a underground market for pencils in arizona.

[Trader Rick & Rosie]

I suspect that most ziploc bags are not designed to be opened and closed hundreds of times over the course of months.

If I had to wager, I'd say this was the number one cause of baggie failure.

Number two, (in my book), would be papercuts. More prevalent in micros, as the logs are often squeezed in pretty tight.

Number three would be pokes from pens & pencils.

Number four would be damage caused by swag.

Number five would be careless cachers manhandling them.

 

Hence my mantra: "If you must use a ziplock, your container has already failed at a very basic level"

 

You'd lose the bet; your book is wrong.

 

Number one reason ziplocks fail is manhandling by cachers...

[+BelKen]

We use ziplock bags to hold the paper log, pencil and sharpener. Most times we puncture the bag first so moisture does not condensate in the bag. The container is the bit that is supposed to keep the contents dry.

[Clan Riffster]

You'd lose the bet; your book is wrong.

 

Number one reason ziplocks fail is manhandling by cachers...

You may be right. (or you may just be cynical)

While I have seen a (very) few instances where a cacher was exuberant in opening a baggie, the vast majority of times I've personally encountered baggie failure in the field has been right in line with my aforementioned observations. Naturally, my small number of finds is infinitesimal when compared to the actual number of caches in the wild, so I can't speak on statistics with anything remotely approaching certainty. Hence, why I posted my opinion. Thankfully, these forums allow the posting of opinions from lesser cachers such as myself, even when those opinions don't match the provable facts.

[+Too Tall John]

You'd lose the bet; your book is wrong.

 

Number one reason ziplocks fail is manhandling by cachers...

You may be right. (or you may just be cynical)

While I have seen a (very) few instances where a cacher was exuberant in opening a baggie, the vast majority of times I've personally encountered baggie failure in the field has been right in line with my aforementioned observations. Naturally, my small number of finds is infinitesimal when compared to the actual number of caches in the wild, so I can't speak on statistics with anything remotely approaching certainty. Hence, why I posted my opinion. Thankfully, these forums allow the posting of opinions from lesser cachers such as myself, even when those opinions don't match the provable facts.

In a technical sense, I have to agree with TR & R, but if you think about it, I think you'll agree with me, too.

 

Basically, your #'s 1-4 would not happen if the cache was never found, it is the handling by cachers that causes these things to happen.

 

I guess it all depends on your definition of manhandling.

 

If this isn't what TR&R meant, I have to staunchly disagree with them, I've almost never seen a baggie that was just torn apart, it's almost always the silly sharp pen/cil.

 

Oh, I totally agree with your thoughts on baggies in the first place, see my sig line.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Too Tall John

[+Isonzo Karst]

Haven't broke a lock and lock style container or an ammo can yet, though

 

I have ! me! me! me!

 

I've cleverly ripped a tab off, twice. And, on a stage of a multicache (mine) all 4 tabs came off in my hands.

 

How fast lock and locks fail seems to be a function of sun exposure rather than of open/close cycles. My multicache is rarely found, and I was only 3rd to find in 2 years on the one of the lock and locks that lost a tab. But it was getting full afternoon sun.

 

I've killed an ammo can too. I R good. It was pretty rusty. When I opened it, the back hinge area on the can tore along the reinforced area where the hinge pins are mounted.

[+gpsfun]

Haven't broke a lock and lock style container or an ammo can yet, though

 

I have ! me! me! me!

 

I've cleverly ripped a tab off, twice. And, on a stage of a multicache (mine) all 4 tabs came off in my hands.

 

How fast lock and locks fail seems to be a function of sun exposure rather than of open/close cycles. My multicache is rarely found, and I was only 3rd to find in 2 years on the one of the lock and locks that lost a tab. But it was getting full afternoon sun.

 

I've killed an ammo can too. I R good. It was pretty rusty. When I opened it, the back hinge area on the can tore along the reinforced area where the hinge pins are mounted.

Another challenge accomplished! I should have hidden a bonus cache.

[+L0ne.R]

I've cleverly ripped a tab off, twice. And, on a stage of a multicache (mine) all 4 tabs came off in my hands.

 

A real lock n lock? Or a dollar store knock-off? The dollar store knock-offs last maybe 3 months before the tabs start to break off. They will come off the real lnls but it usually takes 3 years. I suppose if they are in a desert and not camo-taped (to slow down UV damage) they wouldn't last long.

 

I've killed an ammo can too. I R good. It was pretty rusty. When I opened it, the back hinge area on the can tore along the reinforced area where the hinge pins are mounted.

 

That happened to one of our ammo can plants. I had assumed that ammo cans last practically forever but ours lasted 3 years, then the hinge pins rusted and sheared off.

[+baloo&bd]

We use ziplock bags to hold the paper log, pencil and sharpener. Most times we puncture the bag first so moisture does not condensate in the bag. The container is the bit that is supposed to keep the contents dry.

 

Problem with pencils getting wet?

 

I remove the pencils/pen from the baggies when I find them as they rip the bag.

 

The biggest fix yet is, use a water tight container and you don't need to worry about the bag.

[+Isonzo Karst]

2 of the 3 lock and locks I've had fail in my hands were for sure real Lock and Lock brand. I don't remember about the third.

 

The one that was a stage of my own cache was getting a lot of sun. It went to pieces when I checked it.

[+softballmom19]

I noticed that someone stated that Lock-N-lock containers are waterproof. I have found one that wasn't but I'm wondering if it was because it wasn't sealed properly or the fact that it had heavy rocks piled on top of it. I also have come across ammo cans that yes waterproof but the inside was just rank as could be. Worse then a gym locker with dirty sweat socks. The ziploc baggie is a great idea for awhile but I have come across too small of a bag for the log book and writing instrument. The baggie placed into a container that it has to be placed justed the right way. The bags just will not last with all the handling and all the rest.

[sdarken]

 

Ugh, the stupid little craft baggies that split along the side seams.

 

Yes. The "zipper" part will stick at first and then suddenly gives way causing he bag to be split along the seams. This happens with brand new bags.

 

I put a bit of tape on each end of the "zipper" and also over each of the bottom corners. I think this probably extends the life of the bag though I don't have any statistics to prove it.

[Clan Riffster]

I guess it all depends on your definition of manhandling.

It's all about the semantics, Brother!

To me, "manhandling" means more than simple interaction.

My definition requires that the user be pretty rough with the baggie, intentionally or otherwise.

Most folks I've been caching with handle the baggies with care.

I may be naive, but I'm thinking most cachers, everywhere, use at least reasonable caution.

Yet, the baggies still get rips and holes in them.

 

To quote the LolKatz:

"Stoopid Baggiez!"

[knowschad]

I suspect that most ziploc bags are not designed to be opened and closed hundreds of times over the course of months.

If I had to wager, I'd say this was the number one cause of baggie failure.

Number two, (in my book), would be papercuts. More prevalent in micros, as the logs are often squeezed in pretty tight.

Number three would be pokes from pens & pencils.

Number four would be damage caused by swag.

Number five would be careless cachers manhandling them.

 

Hence my mantra: "If you must use a ziplock, your container has already failed at a very basic level"

 

You'd lose the bet; your book is wrong.

 

Number one reason ziplocks fail is manhandling by cachers...

Number six would be bomb squads.

[+BelKen]

We use ziplock bags to hold the paper log, pencil and sharpener. Most times we puncture the bag first so moisture does not condensate in the bag. The container is the bit that is supposed to keep the contents dry.

 

Problem with pencils getting wet?

 

I remove the pencils/pen from the baggies when I find them as they rip the bag.

 

The biggest fix yet is, use a water tight container and you don't need to worry about the bag.

 

I will expand for those hard of comprehending.

 

We use the bag to hold the items for the log. It is not used to waterproof said items. The cache container is used to waterproof said items. We purposely poke holes in the bag so water deos not condense in bag to wet said items.

 

Removing the pencil is redundant and would meet with our disaproval.

[+baloo&bd]

We use ziplock bags to hold the paper log, pencil and sharpener. Most times we puncture the bag first so moisture does not condensate in the bag. The container is the bit that is supposed to keep the contents dry.

 

Problem with pencils getting wet?

 

I remove the pencils/pen from the baggies when I find them as they rip the bag.

 

The biggest fix yet is, use a water tight container and you don't need to worry about the bag.

 

I will expand for those hard of comprehending.

 

We use the bag to hold the items for the log. It is not used to waterproof said items. The cache container is used to waterproof said items. We purposely poke holes in the bag so water deos not condense in bag to wet said items.

 

Removing the pencil is redundant and would meet with our disaproval.

 

For those who did not read the OP and slept through early years of grade school, condensation is a process by which vapor or gas is converted into liquid.

 

By not sealing the bag properly or intentionally introducing liquids into the bag by negating any protective properties by poking holes in it, combined with containers less than waterproof, are why the bags and contents are not lasting. Not to mention the pencils slip out anyway.

 

Since placing sharp objects in the bag cause tears and rips, removing pens or pencils is accepted as precautionary and meets with approval.

 

Redundancy comes into play when using a container inside of a waterproof container to hold things.

Edited August 24, 2010 by baloo&bd

[+BelKen]

We use ziplock bags to hold the paper log, pencil and sharpener. Most times we puncture the bag first so moisture does not condensate in the bag. The container is the bit that is supposed to keep the contents dry.

 

Problem with pencils getting wet?

 

I remove the pencils/pen from the baggies when I find them as they rip the bag.

 

The biggest fix yet is, use a water tight container and you don't need to worry about the bag.

 

I will expand for those hard of comprehending.

 

We use the bag to hold the items for the log. It is not used to waterproof said items. The cache container is used to waterproof said items. We purposely poke holes in the bag so water deos not condense in bag to wet said items.

 

Removing the pencil is redundant and would meet with our disaproval.

 

For those who did not read the OP and slept through early years of grade school, condensation is a process by which vapor or gas is converted into liquid.

 

By not sealing the bag properly or intentionally introducing liquids into the bag by negating any protective properties by poking holes in it, combined with containers less than waterproof, are why the bags and contents are not lasting. Not to mention the pencils slip out anyway.

 

Since placing sharp objects in the bag cause tears and rips, removing pens or pencils is accepted as precautionary and meets with approval. .

 

Redundancy comes into play when using a container inside of a waterproof container to hold things.

Your are determined.

 

Holding things together thereby not having to rummage about in the bottom of the container would be considered a service in my neck of the woods.

 

I am glad you have worked out condensation. A little bit more grade six research would give you a clue as to the holes in the bag. The fact that our cache containers are waterproof (mentioned twice by me above) may also lend you some clues.

 

Since our bags are not meant to be watertight removing the items does not meet with our approval.

 

We are agreed on a couple of things. Why the argument from you when you clearly did not either read or comprehend my first post.

[+Photographer Jim]

Around here pencils don't even stay in the cache long enough to get wet. I think there's a underground market for pencils in Arizona.

Possibly the same place where all of those missing single socks end up.

[+Too Tall John]

Around here pencils don't even stay in the cache long enough to get wet. I think there's a underground market for pencils in Arizona.

Possibly the same place where all of those missing single socks end up.

Nah. . .

 

All the missing socks get used here in the forums.

[+TerraViators]

Freezer-grade ziplocs, please. They're a world of difference.

 

Pencils are murder on ziplocs. Why does a pencil need to stay dry anyway?

 

BTW, I never use ziplocs inside my Lock-n-Lock cache containers. The container does such a great job of keeping water out that the ziploc isn't needed, and then I don't have to worry about the ziploc corner getting caught in the container seal, which will let in water.

You can also put those silica packets in the container to help with condensation. They won't protect against water, but help with moisture.

[+JasNBex]

I have started to carry a supply of Ziploc baggies with me on cache hunts. Also, I printed out several sizes of logs to add when needed as replacements. Over the short few weeks that I/we have been caching, I am quickly figuring out what needs to be carried with us on all hunts. Baggies, extra logs, ample supply of writing instruments (as one always seems to want to hide somewhere in the recesses of the underneath of the car seat just when you are ready to get out and hunt!) swag and travel bugs. Sometimes we have no set path set for caching, so we simply take them as they come, whether its a micro or a regular. As a Girl Scout or Boy Scout, you learn to always be prepared!

Edited August 24, 2010 by JasNBex