Is this moderator advice warranted

[+currykev]

I have given my opinion on the usefulness of police resources, but it was deleted by one of two mods.

I make no further comment.

Dare you?

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=257210

[+keehotee]

I have given my opinion on the usefulness of police resources, but it was deleted by one of two mods.

I make no further comment.

Dare you?

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=257210

 

The new mod has seemed a little heavy handed and too quick to act on a few occasions - but if it weren't for their introduction implying they'd done this before I'd put it down to being a newbie mod and finding their feet.

 

At the end of the day it's Groundspeaks forum, and if Groundspeaks mod felt it needed deleting, well, what can we do? Perhaps we just had it too good while the American mods were babysitting us??

[+geohatter]

I have given my opinion on the usefulness of police resources, but it was deleted by one of two mods.

I make no further comment.

Dare you?

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=257210

 

The new mod has seemed a little heavy handed and too quick to act on a few occasions - but if it weren't for their introduction implying they'd done this before I'd put it down to being a newbie mod and finding their feet.

 

At the end of the day it's Groundspeaks forum, and if Groundspeaks mod felt it needed deleting, well, what can we do? Perhaps we just had it too good while the American mods were babysitting us??

 

The comments were removed after the thread was pinned as they distracted from the advice being given. It was not intended as an attack on currykev's opinion. His comments have actually been saved along with all information regarding the GROEP discussions for future reference by the mods.

 

As for your comments about my being heavy handed. I am happy to be completely open about this. All my moderating decisions have been in line with the board rules and in discussion with Groundspeak.

 

If anyone has any further concerns, please feel free to contact me directly or send an email to contact@Groundspeak.com

Edited August 16, 2010 by geohatter

[+Master Mariner]

I have given my opinion on the usefulness of police resources, but it was deleted by one of two mods.

I make no further comment.

Dare you?

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=257210

 

Having seen currykev's initial reply, before it was deleted, I was pleased to see that he echoed my sentiments exactly. Whilst I do not condone what is being done to the caches, or crime in general, I think that the advice given by the reviewers is ridiculous and could result in a total waste of police time and manpower - even if they just played along giving out a crime number.

 

I would rather that my taxes were used by the police for solving more serious crimes and protecting the community. If, and I doubt that it would ever happen, I discovered that the police were wasting time and resources on "stolen" geocaches I would make my opinion known to the various authorities that control the police service.

 

I also think that the new mod is being a bit zealous in his new job but that is just my own personal opinion.

[+rutson]

On what planet does a topic being pinned mean that the discussion can't continue?

 

From the Guidlines (my bold)

The goal of the Groundspeak Forum is to promote the activity of geocaching and GPS usage. It is an open forum sponsored by Groundspeak Inc. for discussing all aspects of geocaching, Waymarking, Wherigo™, benchmark hunting, GPS usage and other Groundspeak-related GPS gaming.

 

This is a discussion forum for discussing. It does appear to me that the big stick is back...

[+Jacaru & Wemnog]

Surely even discussing the whys and wherefores of whether it is right or wrong to involve the police is still playing in to scrotes, (sorry gropes) mindset and giving them pleasure. Just stop discussing it!!!

[+geohatter]

On what planet does a topic being pinned mean that the discussion can't continue?

 

From the Guidlines (my bold)

The goal of the Groundspeak Forum is to promote the activity of geocaching and GPS usage. It is an open forum sponsored by Groundspeak Inc. for discussing all aspects of geocaching, Waymarking, Wherigo™, benchmark hunting, GPS usage and other Groundspeak-related GPS gaming.

 

This is a discussion forum for discussing. It does appear to me that the big stick is back...

 

The topic being pinned does not mean the discussion can't continue.

 

I was asked to pin the topic to display the advice from the reviewers in a prominent place. The angry comments that followed detracted from the work that was put in and overshadowed the advice.

 

Feel free to carry on the discussion.

 

Geohatter

[+rutson]

If you feel it's a legitimate topic for discussion then why close the topic?

 

I did not see the "angry" comments but surely we're entitled to be angry sometimes? The OP has been known to be angry before (as have I before anyone else feels to the need to point it out!) but angry is different to "disrespectful and/or irresponsible" behaviour which is (rightly IMHO) discouraged by the guidelines.

 

I am undecided as to whether I feel that reporting these incidents to the police is the right course of action which is why I'd like to see how the discussion unfolds.

 

[Edit - due to hitting 'reply' too soon... sorry!]

I don't feel the mod team can have it both ways. They should decide that either

 

* GROEP should be denied the oxygen of publicity and should take the stance that all mentions should be deleted forthwith or

* Allow full and frank discussion to take place

Edited August 17, 2010 by rutson

[+Happy Humphrey]

I don't see what's wrong with leaving the pinned topic "clean" and discussing it in another thread.

[+MartyBartfast]

I don't see what's wrong with leaving the pinned topic "clean" and discussing it in another thread.

 

I agree, and the pinned topic had a reply posted on the day it was created specifically asking that it not be used for discussion of said topic so it seems reasonable to have removed the replies. Perhaps the pinned topic should be/have been locked.

 

So as we're here now, how about posting the 'angry' replies here and getting on with the discussion.

[+agentmancuso]

Involving the police if caches go missing is embarrassingly petty: they've got better things to do.

 

If the new mod is being a bit trigger happy, well that's only human nature, it'll settle soon. It's not an easy job to do.

[+Lovejoy and Tinker]

As far as reporting 'minor' incidents to the police is concerned, our local police encourage us (as business owners in the town) to report everything and anything that is a crime.

 

Some things they are unlikely to be able to do anything about, and we know full well no investigation will take place. For example, drunken youths rip down our shop's hanging baskets on a Saturday night.

Without CCTV coverage in the town we know, and the police know, that no time will be spent investigating by a police officer.

 

Other things will be investigated, such as when someone kicked our shop window in. Investigations found a witness, person taken to court and we were paid back by the guilty party via the courts, albeit over a 2 year period.

 

I digress.

 

The point is this: If every crime is reported then the local police have statistics they can use which help their budgets, funding and manpower the following year.

And destroying a cache is no different to destroying a hanging basket, it's still someone's property, and in this case it is premeditated and organised by sober people, so what might be their next target? At least drunks have an 'excuse' and generally don't plan their acts of vandalism.

 

If things are not reported, then the people who decide how much funding a force area gets in the next financial year, or the number of officers that should be available in a particular area, just see a big blank spreadsheet and think "ah, no crime there then, we can cut the budget and cut police numbers".

 

So report everything, however minor, that's what we are told.

 

A phone call to the crime reporting line is dealt with by a civilian member of police staff. So no resources (police officer, 999 operator etc) are used in logging the crime. And it takes 5 minutes (okay, plus 30 minutes explaining what a cache is).

The crime then gets classified and recorded and appears as a statistic when it comes time to review resources next year.

 

If you want your local force to be well resourced, not reporting what you consider to be minor stuff won't help them, even though it seems it should. Ask your local beat manager or sergeant.

[Deceangi]

Sorry but this is the only comment I'm going to make on the topic.

 

If those who are moaning about the advice, had actually fully read the post. They would have seen Graculus states

 

I have spoken to my local police and they have confirmed that this is the case

 

He actually visited his local Police Station and obtained a Official Answer off them. It is the Police themselves, who have stated that all thefts should be reported! If they thought it would be a waste of their time to take a report, the answer supplied would have been different.

 

The advice given is a direct response to that given by the Police and not one the UK Reviewers have developed. If you wish to dispute this advice, please contact Graculus, and he will give you contact details to contact the Police Station where he obtained the advice given in the posted topic.

[+Happy Humphrey]

It is the Police themselves, who have stated that all thefts should be reported! If they thought it would be a waste of their time to take a report, the answer supplied would have been different.

Quite, and if we aren't supposed to report minor crimes to the police (and remember they're not all rushing around investigating murders the whole time, despite what you see on TV), who are we supposed to report them to?

Or should we just tolerate criminal behaviour if we think it a bit trivial? Perhaps watch the shoplifter at work then walk away smiling and shaking heads unless they steal something worth over £100? Some of these stolen trackables are worth £10, plus a certain sentimental value to the owner. Is that too little to care about - and if a few dozen have been nicked, is that still too minor?

[+drdick&vick]

With Deci on this one. I have been told in the past that it is important to report all crimes no matter how small.

[+FantasyRaider]

 

The point is this: If every crime is reported then the local police have statistics they can use which help their budgets, funding and manpower the following year.

And destroying a cache is no different to destroying a hanging basket, it's still someone's property, and in this case it is premeditated and organised by sober people, so what might be their next target? At least drunks have an 'excuse' and generally don't plan their acts of vandalism.

 

If things are not reported, then the people who decide how much funding a force area gets in the next financial year, or the number of officers that should be available in a particular area, just see a big blank spreadsheet and think "ah, no crime there then, we can cut the budget and cut police numbers".

 

So report everything, however minor, that's what we are told.

 

A phone call to the crime reporting line is dealt with by a civilian member of police staff. So no resources (police officer, 999 operator etc) are used in logging the crime. And it takes 5 minutes (okay, plus 30 minutes explaining what a cache is).

The crime then gets classified and recorded and appears as a statistic when it comes time to review resources next year.

 

If you want your local force to be well resourced, not reporting what you consider to be minor stuff won't help them, even though it seems it should. Ask your local beat manager or sergeant.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth!

[team tisri]

If you want your local force to be well resourced, not reporting what you consider to be minor stuff won't help them, even though it seems it should. Ask your local beat manager or sergeant.

 

I'd be more inclined to report low-level crime if it didn't take so much time for so little result. When my car was broken into, the first obstacle was that the police "didn't take crime reports by phone on a Sunday" (their words). So since I needed to go into town to get the window replaced anyway I stopped by the police station to report it, at which point they made me feel like I was out of line for keeping change in the coin box without knowing precisely how much there was. After the best part of 30 minutes answering ever-more detailed questions the conclusion was that they were unlikely to catch anyone (to be honest I didn't expect them to) and so no further action would be taken (there wasn't much further action they could usefully have taken), but they would write to me with a crime reference number.

 

During the following week they left three messages on my answering machine to ask me to attend the police station to file report the crime. I tried to call them to tell them I had already filed a report but after 20 minutes on hold I gave up. They never did write to me with the crime reference number.

 

So if I'm going to be faced with that kind of process over a coin worth £5 that I freely left in the woods knowing the risks it would be taken, frankly I can't be bothered. In fact the second time my car was broken into I didn't report it because the first time was just more hassle than it was worth.

Edited August 17, 2010 by team tisri

[+4 and The Dog]

Lovejoy's response was pretty much what we were going to type. Report everything. You can also use online reporting with some forces so not even civilian staffs time is taken up on the end of a phone - ok, someone still has to process it.

Also, apart from helping forces develop full stats for budget begging bowl time, you never know, the actual intelligence itself could be useful.

As for the moderation - you cant do right for doing wrong as a mod. Stick with it buddy.

Finally, as to the issue of police actually deploying resources to investigate these thefts, fine so long as they can, but I've had my car stolen, police actually told me to go to a station they wouldnt even take details over the phone, and when we were burgled, the police never even attended and actually stated they would deal with it by phone! If I found out the reason there was no officers available to come to our house and collect evidence (SOCCO turned up 3 days later and said due to the time lapse it was a waste of their time but they went through the motions!) was because officers were staking out a cache, I'd go freekin beserk!!!!! I could hardly contain myself as it was!!!!

[+*mouse*]

Maybe this thread should be less about criticising the police and more about the subject in hand?? They don't always have the time to dedicate to minor crimes and that's not what we're hear to discuss.....

 

An insiders view of how a crime report is taken might help, so here it is - you report by phone (not 999) or email. Will take approx 10 minutes for a call taker to take down the details and create you a crime report. This will then be assessed by someone else who will decide if there are any leads to follow up. If not then it's filed. If there are leads then the crime is allocated to a police officer to deal with. They will follow up each lead in turn until they have either gathered enough info for a case to put before the CPS (who decide what goes to court) or it gets filed.

 

Reality - police are not going to waste a whole lot of time on the theft of a box. Theft is not a statistic that the police are measured on and have to return to the Home Office (unlike burglary, robbbery, violent crime etc) and so the reality is that it is not going to be given the same level of attentions as other crimes. Personally I think that's right - there are more important things out there worthy of police time.

 

So tbh yes you can report the theft of your cache - but odds are very little will be done about it.

 

Personally I wouldn't bother as I have way more important stuff in my life to worry about than the loss of a plastic box! But this is a personal decision for each and every cache owner to make and whatever we debate in here it is ulimately down to each individual cacher to decide and not us here in these forums.

[+*mouse*]

Off topic - but I wanted to add that those of you in here who have had poor experiences from the police, I encourage you to report them and complain.

 

Every day at work I see burocrats make stupid decisions about things in the Police and the system forgets there's a victim sufferning at the end of it all. At the end of the day the managers are motivated by numbers and statistics, not victims. Something I think we would all agree is wrong. The only way to change this is feedback from people like yourselves - so speak up if the service recieved was poor. People like myself and my police collegues get so annoyed when the serivce we give is driven by numbers rather than helping people. The police out on the beat want to help - but sometimes the system just doesn't allow it.

 

Sorry - off soap box now!!

Edited August 18, 2010 by *mouse*

[+naffita]

There seems to be a great deal of angst about one group of so-called cachers who have pinched a few TB's.

 

Their only difference is that they are self-righteously boasting about it. Have a look at the number of TB's that have gone missing, there are thousands, all taken by someone who does not then log them. No boasting, no log and no trace of the TB, but taken just the same, and by people who think of themselves as genuine cachers. TB's dissapear all the time, you leave them in a box and then they take their chances, you win some you lose some, and you're lucky if your TB last very long.

AS for any interest from plod, you must be joking.

[+agentmancuso]

The idea that the opinion of the police themselves is of any particular relevance is frankly rather naive. As has been said already, the only possible use for reports of stolen tupperware is to increase police demands for more resources: why we should encourage such abuse of statistics is beyond me.

 

Lets picture the conversation:

 

Taxpayer: Hey Plod, would you like to waste lots of our money soothing the outraged sensibilities of tupperware hunters?

Plod: Actually, no, we don't need any more resources, thanks. What we actually need are fewer targets, fewer invented crimes, less paperwork, less pandering to populism and more time to concentrate on the real job of preventing and solving crime.

 

It's the very nature of moralising bureaucracies like the police to demand ever more resources to pay for endless function creep; let's not encourage it any further.

 

A far better way of dealing with stolen caches would be as follows:

1) Get a grip. Tupperware is not important.

2) Develop a healthy contempt for the idiots who get a thrill from spoiling caches.

3) Place better caches. The less accessible or more cleverly hidden caches are, the less chance of their being muggled or Groped.

4) Stop talking about it.

[+Happy Humphrey]

...Theft is not a statistic that the police are measured on and have to return to the Home Office (unlike burglary, robbbery, violent crime etc) and so the reality is that it is not going to be given the same level of attentions as other crimes. Personally I think that's right - there are more important things out there worthy of police time.

I'm not wishing to sound critical of the police, but if they (seemingly) have the resources to send a team to "go through the motions", are you really saying that minor crimes are just ignored in some districts?

 

Perhaps if someone is a bit hard up or needs a bit of quick cash for their next "fix", then as long as it's going to be classified as "theft" then they can help themselves, without the worry that they might have to face the local constabulary. That would be a recipe for a (petty) crime wave of epic proportions, and (for instance) shopkeepers would need CCTV, steel shutters, and pay huge insurance premiums. Also, the low-life that think it's fun to vandalise kids' playgrounds or steal geocachers' game pieces would be able to operate with impunity. All because each incident is regarded as too minor to be bothered with.

 

Oh...that's happening already in some areas...now I see why!

 

Perhaps the police in Graculus's neighbourhood are better able to keep control by making sure that these sort of incidents are dealt with, at least gathering information until enough isolated incidents accrue into something worth spending resources on.

[+*mouse*]

I'm not wishing to sound critical of the police, but if they (seemingly) have the resources to send a team to "go through the motions", are you really saying that minor crimes are just ignored in some districts?

I never said we go though the motions. That shouldn't be happening and it's wrong if it is. As I said before - report it if it happens to you.

And crimes such as thefts are not ignored, but it is right to say that maybe they don't get the time spent on them that they could - in some areas. I can't speak for the whole country, only where I work. But with limited resources the Police have to concentrate on the areas that are most significant. So where I work murders, stabbings, assaults and other public order work is dealt with as a priority over crimes such as theft.

The Police should ALWAYS be investigating every crime reported to them, but you have to be aware that the resources dedicated to your crime will be proportional to how serious an offence it is. So don't be surprised if theft of tupperware only gets 10 minutes on the phone and a follow up letter. It's not that the police don't want to help - they do, but they have to meet priorities with the resources they have available. Like 4 and The Dog point out - you're not likely to be impressed if you found out police were staking out a cache when they couldn't get to your burglary!

 

Maybe if the UK spent as much money on policing as countries such as France and Germany did, we'd have the crime figures to match. But we don't, so we do the best with what we have.

 

Anyway back on topic.......

 

Personally I think that if the geocaching community is reporting these offences to the police, then the best thing we could do is collate a list ourselves of those crime numbers and some basic crime details.

 

Policing is split into geographic areas and trust me, when it comes to something like theft of a cache - they are not going to be sharing the crime information with neighbouring forces. It's too low level.

 

We would be much better placed collecting information ourselves and if/when we have a significant amount of information THEN we go and take that information en masse to the Police. That way when we report it to the police we actually give them enough information that there is something they can do with it.

[markandlynn]

If you dont report them then this will not happen

 

http://romesentinel.com/news?newsid=20100217-141107

 

This guy who was arrested and taken to court had pursuing cache maggotry for a long time since his arrest the maggotry in the area stopped. Some estimated tha he had taken thousands of pounds of property.

 

Without the history of reports you have an isolated incident with a history you or the police have more to go on if someone is arrested or pulled over by the police in the future with a boot full of tupperware.

[+agentmancuso]

If you dont report them then this will not happen

 

http://romesentinel.com/news?newsid=20100217-141107

 

This guy who was arrested and taken to court had pursuing cache maggotry for a long time since his arrest the maggotry in the area stopped. Some estimated tha he had taken thousands of pounds of property.

 

Without the history of reports you have an isolated incident with a history you or the police have more to go on if someone is arrested or pulled over by the police in the future with a boot full of tupperware.

 

 

I hope the $100 bail money covered the manpower costs involved. I'm sure people in the area suffering serious emotional or physical damage from real crime and real criminals will be consoled by the thought that The Case of the Missing Tupperware has been solved.

[+*mouse*]

Yes quite right MarkandLynn- which is why I suggested that someone here needs to collate the information and keep an overview of the crimes that are occuring.We have the advantage of the national overview. The police wont have that for this sort of offence.

[team tisri]

If you dont report them then this will not happen

 

http://romesentinel.com/news?newsid=20100217-141107

 

This guy who was arrested and taken to court had pursuing cache maggotry for a long time since his arrest the maggotry in the area stopped. Some estimated tha he had taken thousands of pounds of property.

 

Without the history of reports you have an isolated incident with a history you or the police have more to go on if someone is arrested or pulled over by the police in the future with a boot full of tupperware.

 

I can't see that happening this side of the water. Our local police force declined to investigate a crime at our nearest off-license when a couple of yobs burst in, grabbed a couple of cases of beer and ran out with them, citing a lack of evidence. CCTV footage showing the yobs concerned apparently doesn't count as evidence.

 

I know it must look like I'm bashing the police at every turn but my experiences of dealing with them have been such a total waste of my time I wouldn't bother unless there was something serious to report. Unfortunately the limited dealing I had with the police in a very serious crime incident (I was a juror in a case that started life as an attempted murder inquiry, and naturally had several police officers giving evidence) they didn't inspire much confidence then either.

 

So from my own experience dealing with the police even if you caught a cache thief red-handed they would be unlikely to do much, if they did the courts probably wouldn't do much, and even if they did it seems like such a waste of resources for the sake of some tupperware. Let's face it, when we leave things in the woods we have to accept they may go missing, whether because they are destroyed by animals, the local chavs find a box in their drinking den or some form of organised group goes out on a seek-and-destroy mission.

 

As Naffita said there are all sorts of other reasons why caches and TBs go missing. Every single one of my TBs has apparently disappeared, either just by mysteriously vanishing from a cache or because it was picked up by a cacher who then failed to move it on. In an ideal world this kind of thing wouldn't happen, but for as long as crimes are being committed involving physical violence and forced entry into properties it does seem that the theft of low-value boxes left unattended for extended periods in remote locations isn't a high priority for the police.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I hope the $100 bail money covered the manpower costs involved. I'm sure people in the area suffering serious emotional or physical damage from real crime and real criminals will be consoled by the thought that The Case of the Missing Tupperware has been solved.

So, theft of thousands of pounds of property isn't "real crime"? Should we just let these people do what they like? My point is that I can understand if it's not top of the priority list (and thanks to *mouse* for letting us know how it works). But if there's a few hours available between major bullion robberies, stabbings and murders, why not make people realise that even these lesser offences aren't tolerated?

 

If we get the impression that the police only deal with something when it's "real crime" (according to some arbitrary definition), we end up with vigilante groups sorting out the annoying minor stuff, with all the attendant problems that causes. For instance, in the case that started this thread; if we decide that the police shouldn't be troubled with it, perhaps we should set up a trap, catch the maggot in the act and then deal with him ourselves? I think not.

[+agentmancuso]

So, theft of thousands of pounds of property isn't "real crime"?

Theft of thousands of pounds of property is real crime. Theft of tupperware isn't, except in the hypothetical case of the armed robbery of a tupperware factory.

 

Should we just let these people do what they like?

No. We should act to remove the cause of gratification, by ceasing to give them any attention, and we should place caches in such a way that a degree of effort or thought is required to find them.

 

If we get the impression that the police only deal with something when it's "real crime" (according to some arbitrary definition)

The definition is not arbitrary: crime is more 'real' in proportion to the suffering it causes, whether physical, emotional or financial.

 

we end up with vigilante groups sorting out the annoying minor stuff, with all the attendant problems that causes.

Assault is a real crime.

[team tisri]

If we get the impression that the police only deal with something when it's "real crime" (according to some arbitrary definition), we end up with vigilante groups sorting out the annoying minor stuff, with all the attendant problems that causes. For instance, in the case that started this thread; if we decide that the police shouldn't be troubled with it, perhaps we should set up a trap, catch the maggot in the act and then deal with him ourselves? I think not.

 

I doubt many people would be interested in being charged with assault and battery for the sake of a film pot or a sandwich box.

[+currykev]

If any "fool" goes to the police to report a lost container and it's valuable contents, please can you record it for future youtube viewing. I'll add it to my greatest comedy moments page.

But you'll have to find a copshop that is open 1st. And if you don't get arrested for wasting police time.

or...............

Maybe it really is like "Heartbeat" outside the big cities!

[+Happy Humphrey]

So, theft of thousands of pounds of property isn't "real crime"?

Theft of thousands of pounds of property is real crime. Theft of tupperware isn't, except in the hypothetical case of the armed robbery of a tupperware factory.

In the case markandlynn linked to, and to which we were referring, it did amount to thousands (or at least, several hundreds). We're not talking about the theft of a few tupperware boxes here. So at least you agree with me on that case, and judging from the number of thefts in the UK we could be getting into the hundreds of pounds worth of costs. Remember, it's not just the boxes; it's the geocoins and other trackables, each of which has cost over £5 (remember the cost of a travel bug tag), plus the cost of driving out to replace these things, the cost of everyone's time in unnecessary rework, not to mention the annoyance factor.

 

A lot of assaults amount to no more than someone winding someone else up until they get pushed to the floor and slightly scratched or bruised. And yet they are somehow "real" crime, when persistent thieving seems to be OK.

 

I'm not saying that the police should immediately send a hit squad to the scene of a cache disappearance of this type. All I'm saying is that persistent offenders should be viewed as petty thieves, and dealt with in the same way as other petty thieves. And that the police are the best people to decide whether action needs to be taken - but we should report the incident, as advised by the police themselves. Simple as that.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I'm sorry but I fall on the side of these measures are not enough!!!!

 

I've gone back to my caches to find decent swag that I've left has either been:-

 

1) Traded for some second hand broken piece of plastic crap

2) Not traded for at all - just taken

 

We must not allow this green-collar crime to go unreported!

 

We should report every incident of swag items stolen in this manor to the police - seriously, it will even help their statistics in the long run (even though our area will be statistically designated as a high-crime area it's worth it)!

 

Also - If we report cachers who log a find without actually signing the physical log we can help bump up police fraud statistics too!

 

Cachers who forget to log trackables, well ok maybe not criminal but surely the councils can impose fines? Revenues can be devided between the local authorities and Groundspeak.

 

Of course the real question is should we involve SOCA and the foreign office when trackables go missing abroad? I imagine it would be down to whatever agreements the UK government has in place with the country in question.

Edited August 18, 2010 by _TeamFitz_

[+geohatter]

If any "fool" goes to the police to report a lost container and it's valuable contents, please can you record it for future youtube viewing. I'll add it to my greatest comedy moments page.

But you'll have to find a copshop that is open 1st. And if you don't get arrested for wasting police time.

or...............

Maybe it really is like "Heartbeat" outside the big cities!

 

This kind of comment is not of the kind that would support your opinon. Calling people fools (even if it is in inverted commas) for reporting a cache theft to the police and saying you would get a comedic thrill out of it is bang out of order.

 

I remind you that the advice is simply that. Noone is saying that all instances of cache theft have to be reported. It is meerly suggesting an available option.

 

It was also produced in consultation with the police so surely there is nothing wrong with taking this course of action.

 

While everyone is entitled to discuss this issue. Please do so in a way that is non-confrontational.

 

I'm sorry but I fall on the side of these measures are not enough!!!!

 

I've gone back to my caches to find decent swag that I've left has either been:-

 

1) Traded for some second hand broken piece of plastic crap

2) Not traded for at all - just taken

 

We must not allow this green-collar crime to go unreported!

 

We should report every incident of swag items stolen in this manor to the police - seriously, it will even help their statistics in the long run (even though our area will be statistically designated as a high-crime area it's worth it)!

 

Also - If we report cachers who log a find without actually signing the physical log we can help bump up police fraud statistics too!

 

Cachers who forget to log trackables, well ok maybe not criminal but surely the councils can impose fines? Revenues can be devided between the local authorities and Groundspeak.

 

Of course the real question is should we involve SOCA and the foreign office when trackables go missing abroad? I imagine it would be down to whatever agreements the UK government has in place with the country in question.

 

This also doesn't help.

 

The forums are primarily a place for people to ask questions and obtain helpful information or to advance enjoyment of the geocaching game.

 

While there is a place for sarcasm, in this case and in this form, it is disruptive and shows contempt for the work that the reviewers have put in to offer advice for those that have asked for it.

 

Please continue to discuss the pros and cons of the advice and feel free to offer alternatives such as that suggested by *mouse*.

 

Geohatter

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

 

<snip>

 

This also doesn't help.

 

The forums are primarily a place for people to ask questions and obtain helpful information or to advance enjoyment of the geocaching game.

 

While there is a place for sarcasm, in this case and in this form, it is disruptive and shows contempt for the work that the reviewers have put in to offer advice for those that have asked for it.

 

Please continue to discuss the pros and cons of the advice and feel free to offer alternatives such as that suggested by *mouse*.

 

Geohatter

 

Sorry I forgot to add a smiley, here it is --

 

Of course, I think mine and currykev's post were important to the discussion here - sarcasm and humour can be a way of conveying an opinion - they are valid tools of communication - if not always welcome - but if Groundspeak feels that they are not then who am I to argue?

 

I think if you're going to ask people to give straight answers and not have a little banter then what is the point of having these forums? I see plenty of this type of light hearted commentary going on in other threads, I do think coming across as a little sensitive if you're going to ask that it not take place.

 

I already gave an alternative in another thread discussing GROIN.

 

Equating assault with stealing tupperware left in the woods - or arguing the latter is more serious than the former is a joke in itself.

 

ETA #1: I have no contempt for reviewers, and of the reviewers I have communicated with directly regarding my own caches I am confident to state that if they were asked they would say they found my communication with them entirely reasonable and respectful.

 

ETA #2: BTW, I do not find your sig line very helpful - I think you should remove it as it distracts me from the discussion

 

--------------------

That badger is looking at me funny

 

Edited August 18, 2010 by _TeamFitz_

[+currykev]

I'm going to stay clear of this subject now.

I don't want to upset anyone.

[+geohatter]

Sorry I forgot to add a smiley, here it is --

 

Of course, I think mine and currykev's post were important to the discussion here - sarcasm and humour can be a way of conveying an opinion - they are valid tools of communication - if not always welcome - but if Groundspeak feels that they are not then who am I to argue?

 

I think if you're going to ask people to give straight answers and not have a little banter then what is the point of having these forums? I see plenty of this type of light hearted commentary going on in other threads, I do think coming across as a little sensitive if you're going to ask that it not take place.

 

I already gave my opinions in another thread discussing GROIN.

 

Equating assault with stealing tupperware left in the woods - or arguing the latter is more serious than the former is a joke in itself.

 

I agree sarcasm is a way of conveying an opinion and noone at Groundspeak feels differently.

 

While I respect that you don't agree with the advice given, I feel that the way in which you put that opinion across disrespected the work the reviewers have done.

 

I don't believe anyone has equated assault with stealing tupperware. From what I've read, all that has been said is that some people believe all crimes should be reported no matter how insignificant they appear to be.

 

We both obviously have differing opinions on the validity of the advice. I'm happy for it to be discussed with sarcasm but, in my opinion, your post was a little over the top. But hey, it's your opinion to be expressed how you like within the guidelines.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Sorry I forgot to add a smiley, here it is --

 

Of course, I think mine and currykev's post were important to the discussion here - sarcasm and humour can be a way of conveying an opinion - they are valid tools of communication - if not always welcome - but if Groundspeak feels that they are not then who am I to argue?

 

I think if you're going to ask people to give straight answers and not have a little banter then what is the point of having these forums? I see plenty of this type of light hearted commentary going on in other threads, I do think coming across as a little sensitive if you're going to ask that it not take place.

 

I already gave my opinions in another thread discussing GROIN.

 

Equating assault with stealing tupperware left in the woods - or arguing the latter is more serious than the former is a joke in itself.

 

I agree sarcasm is a way of conveying an opinion and noone at Groundspeak feels differently.

 

While I respect that you don't agree with the advice given, I feel that the way in which you put that opinion across disrespected the work the reviewers have done.

 

I don't believe anyone has equated assault with stealing tupperware. From what I've read, all that has been said is that some people believe all crimes should be reported no matter how insignificant they appear to be.

 

We both obviously have differing opinions on the validity of the advice. I'm happy for it to be discussed with sarcasm but, in my opinion, your post was a little over the top. But hey, it's your opinion to be expressed how you like within the guidelines.

 

I take issue with your inference that I've disrespected reviewers, my post was in jest. If any reviewers feel I've disrespected them in any way let them speak, I'll apologise (i'll also stay clear of the GS UK forums as it looks like it's becoming a place where humour is outlawed).

 

I do have this to add:- I actually thought the OP was a little over-reactive and felt that you handled it well, however your reaction to my post has slightly shaded my original opinion of your good self.

 

Regarding police response, I've deliberately avoided discussing that and my own personal experiences of how seriously police treat real crime.

 

That is all.

[+geohatter]

I take issue with your inference that I've disrespected reviewers, my post was in jest. If any reviewers feel I've disrespected them in any way let them speak, I'll apologise (i'll also stay clear of the GS UK forums as it looks like it's becoming a place where humour is outlawed).

 

I do have this to add:- I actually thought the OP was a little over-reactive and felt that you handled it well, however your reaction to my post has slightly shaded my original opinion of your good self.

 

Regarding police response, I've deliberately avoided discussing that and my own personal experiences of how seriously police treat real crime.

 

That is all.

 

I apologise that my comment caused you to take issue. That was my impression and accept that my impression was wrong.

 

Please don't stay clear of the forums. I have enjoyed your posts. I can also categorically say that the forum is not becoming a place where humour is outlawed.

 

Geohatter

[+drdick&vick]

Well these GROEP idiots have achieved one thing, they have us arguing amongst ourselves.

[+geohatter]

Well these GROEP idiots have achieved one thing, they have us arguing amongst ourselves.

 

They have indeed

 

Let's get back to to the topic

 

Geohtter

[+Didds and Bossyboots]

Do any of you who have made your comments on this forum live in the area that is being affected by this person who is taking caches and destroying trackables.

 

We feel strongly that caches in our area are being taken but have decided to not react to this person.

 

But by discussing it here you are giving them fuel for their fire.

 

They are now quoting what is said by people on this forum on the cache pages where they have taken a cache. So you are giving them what they want.

 

I think this topic should be stopped, leave the advice given by Graculus and nothing else.

 

We want to place caches in the area and be able to leave trackables but we can't while this rumbles on and on and on and on by people who are not affected.

 

Please stop posting for the sake of local cachers

Edited August 18, 2010 by didds

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I take issue with your inference that I've disrespected reviewers, my post was in jest. If any reviewers feel I've disrespected them in any way let them speak, I'll apologise (i'll also stay clear of the GS UK forums as it looks like it's becoming a place where humour is outlawed).

 

I do have this to add:- I actually thought the OP was a little over-reactive and felt that you handled it well, however your reaction to my post has slightly shaded my original opinion of your good self.

 

Regarding police response, I've deliberately avoided discussing that and my own personal experiences of how seriously police treat real crime.

 

That is all.

 

I apologise that my comment caused you to take issue. That was my impression and accept that my impression was wrong.

 

Please don't stay clear of the forums. I have enjoyed your posts. I can also categorically say that the forum is not becoming a place where humour is outlawed.

 

Geohatter

 

Thanks.

 

I have a tendency to get caught up in controversial topics as I like to explore all sides of the debate and often find that most people prefer to take a side then debate.

 

In order to reduce the number of times I get caught up in these debates, I sometimes use humour.

 

It doesn't always work, but it helps keep me emotionally uninvolved.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

My alternative to dealing with GROIN:

 

Set a series 100-200 35mm film can micros. When other cachers do the series encourage them to bring a few spares and replace as necessary -thus ensuring GROIN is overwhelmingly occupied whilst better caches can be placed.

 

In the event GROIN decided to ignore the series then their environmental hypocrisy will be exposed.

 

Here's my other alternative:

 

Don't involve the police, but do build up a profile. Don't delete accounts, just wait patiently. If a person or persons can be identified, you may have more success taking them to small claims court than through the CPS (who may ultimately decide to drop it at whim).

[+Happy Humphrey]

I think this topic should be stopped, leave the advice given by Graculus and nothing else.

 

We want to place caches in the area and be able to leave trackables but we can't while this rumbles on and on and on and on by people who are not affected.

 

Please stop posting for the sake of local cachers

I do sympathise, but this has been going on for many years now and the "silence" tactic seems to have made no difference. All that happens is that, every few months, someone who hasn't heard of them before asks a question about it here and the issue reappears. Note that we have a strategy; it's just that some people don't agree with it.

 

The "prosecution" tactic has been demonstrated to work (in Germany and the USA, anyway). Some disagree with the idea, but nothing will ever happen if we can't discuss it freely. My opinion is that we just report every incident to the police and leave them to decide what to do, as per the reviewer's advice. In the meantime we just replace caches (or not, as preferred) and there's no need to discuss it.

 

If the maggots feel that it's a great achievement to have generated another thread on an obscure UK forum, then I feel sorry for them and they really need medical help.

[+Foinavon]

This has been an interesting discussion. I too have my doubts as to whether the "silence" tactic is the best one. Its a similar thing tv policy is not showing streakers disrupting sporting events. It doesn't stop the wierdo's who streak just as it doesn't stop the wierdo's who have nothing better to do than trash caches.

 

I have two anecdotes for you that I hope you find encouraging and in this case I hope the person in question IS reading.

 

In Lancashire we had a cash trasher. There was a little more to it than just the cache trashing but I don't want to elaborate on here. Anyway not only did the police take it seriously they actually caught him and he was given a caution. So now he has a police record. It was co operation between local cachers and the police that did it.

 

The other one is a related idea. I help run a scarecrow festival in our village. Every year some scarecrows get stolen. There are always misfits in society who because they have achieved nothing themselves want to spoil the achievements of others. Well the police took the scarecrow theft quite seriously and they actually recovered it. It was about 8 miles away in a supermarket car park.

 

What I think is that when you report "trivial" things to the police you MAY get lucky. It depends on their mood and what kind of day they are having and what other commitments you have. If everyone reports it there is a drip drip drip effect. CurryKev will be right in that sometimes you may left laughed out of the station, and so might the next person. But the 3rd person to report it may not!

[Charlton78]

My personal view is CRIME is CRIME no matter how small and should be reported. If not then where do you draw the line? Today its a broken/stolen cache, tomorrow a flowerbed ripped up, the next day windows smashed etc.... If you don't act then who will and how long before someone stumbles across a person braking a cache what do you do then?

[+trahciul]

I have come into this discussion a bit late having been directed to it from a GAGB forum on a similar subject. Interestingly they also have a pinned or sticky post with similar advice to the one on this forum. It seems to me that the police have better things to do (I hope!) than get involved with people who are disrupting a game. In the GAGB instance it was "so called" muggles selling geocoins on ebay. I don't actually have a problem with that scenario as the coins will probably be bought by a cacher and returned into the system. If the seller or ebay is stopped from selling the coin then it will probably be destroyed. The answer from the game's point of view is to make the geocoins less desirable or place them in caches that are less accessable to thieves.

I think this problem can only get worse in the future as geocaching becomes more popular and the answer is not with the law but with the rules of the game in which we play.

[+Team Noodles]

I have come into this discussion a bit late having been directed to it from a GAGB forum on a similar subject. Interestingly they also have a pinned or sticky post with similar advice to the one on this forum. It seems to me that the police have better things to do (I hope!) than get involved with people who are disrupting a game. In the GAGB instance it was "so called" muggles selling geocoins on ebay. I don't actually have a problem with that scenario as the coins will probably be bought by a cacher and returned into the system. If the seller or ebay is stopped from selling the coin then it will probably be destroyed. The answer from the game's point of view is to make the geocoins less desirable or place them in caches that are less accessable to thieves.

I think this problem can only get worse in the future as geocaching becomes more popular and the answer is not with the law but with the rules of the game in which we play.

you do realise more cars get stolen and resold daily, then any coins?

Btw, these all get returned back to the streets(game).