beyond ALR

[Blue Quail]

I know everyone talked about the different issues with ALRs but I have one I like to ask.

A friend of mine did a liars cache. No where on the cache page does it say that there is a

logging requirement. After you log it in you get a message from the owner saying you have to use

a lie in the log or they will delete your log. I know this seems like a grey area but I think it isn't fair that the

owner can delete your log and admits it in the message to you it is a requirement. What can be done for a cacher who does this?

[+Ike 13]

That's an ALR. The cache owner may not have realized the change in the guidelines. Have your friend relog the find, and send the owner an email politely pointing out the guideline change and a link to that guideline. If the owner gives your friend trouble, contact the local reviewer.

[Blue Quail]

That's an ALR. The cache owner may not have realized the change in the guidelines. Have your friend relog the find, and send the owner an email politely pointing out the guideline change and a link to that guideline. If the owner gives your friend trouble, contact the local reviewer.

 

They know but they still do it because they feel as long as it's not on the cache page it's ok

[+Tigerz]

I know everyone talked about the different issues with ALRs but I have one I like to ask.

A friend of mine did a liars cache. No where on the cache page does it say that there is a

logging requirement. After you log it in you get a message from the owner saying you have to use

a lie in the log or they will delete your log. I know this seems like a grey area but I think it isn't fair that the

owner can delete your log and admits it in the message to you it is a requirement. What can be done for a cacher who does this?

Likewise ... how about a locked container where the owner limits the combination? ... or a challenge the owner (and the vast majority of cachers) are unable to complete? In the latter, my issue is not the challenge itself, but the ownership by someone who doesn't appreciate the difficulty of the cache.

 

In a similar vein, switching shoes, when is it okay to delete a log?

 

It's been awhile now and I still see a good bit of confusion around both of these new rules.

[Blue Quail]

This is a copy of the email minus the name of the cachers, cache and location.

 

I see you logged "XXXXXXXX" incorrectly and I have deleted your log entry. Please re-log correctly. XXXX, if you googled it, was the world's best liar. The cache description therefore is entirely made up (except for for the Russian on the cache page that when decrypted gave the cache location). Directions in the cache explained the deception and how to properly log. If you would please keep to the theme of the cache and keep the lie alive, I would most appreciate it. Thanks and hope to run into you on one of your caching adventures! Thanks for all the caches in XXXXXXXXXX

[+JeremyR]

I know this is a radical suggestion but how about playing nice and playing fair and logging the cache as it was intended to be logged. I know the cache owner can't force anyone to do so, yadda, yadda, yadda but still, honestly, it's only fair if the CO has gone to some effort to set up a particular cache that should be logged in a particular way to honour their wishes.

Edited July 21, 2009 by JeremyR

[+Renegade Knight]

That's an ALR. The cache owner may not have realized the change in the guidelines. Have your friend relog the find, and send the owner an email politely pointing out the guideline change and a link to that guideline. If the owner gives your friend trouble, contact the local reviewer.

 

They know but they still do it because they feel as long as it's not on the cache page it's ok

 

Three thoughts. First It's ok because it's the owners cache.

Second. It's easy enough to honor the owners wishes.

 

However to remain listed on this site, it's not ok because it's an ALR. What they should do if they like having their cache listed here is put on the cache page that it's a liars cache.

 

They can ask for the log to lie and since it's an easy thing most folks will comply. The owner can send a reminder email saying "please lie" if someone didn't.

 

That's their limit if they wish to remain listed here.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[+jellis]

I know this is a radical suggestion but how about playing nice and playing fair and logging the cache as it was intended to be logged. I know the cache owner can't force anyone to do so, yadda, yadda, yadda but still, honestly, it's only fair if the CO has gone to some effort to set up a particular cache that should be logged in a particular way to honour their wishes.

 

But then why not change the ALRs back? There was a reason they did it, so if they let one cacher do it then why not for everyone?

[+Cache O'Plenty]

You could always cut/paste your original log and add at the bottom "Relogged and corrected", which would be the lie.

 

This is a case of "Choose Your Battles".

Edited July 21, 2009 by Cache O'Plenty

[Moun10Bike]

Moved to the "Geocaching Topics" forum.

[+bittsen]

Have your friend add a new log that simply said "nice cache"

[+Mule Ears]

Have your friend add a new log that simply said "nice cache"

 

Ha! Excellent. Subtle dig.

[+Harry Dolphin]

SBA as not meeting the geocaching guidelines.

[+JeremyR]

I know this is a radical suggestion but how about playing nice and playing fair and logging the cache as it was intended to be logged. I know the cache owner can't force anyone to do so, yadda, yadda, yadda but still, honestly, it's only fair if the CO has gone to some effort to set up a particular cache that should be logged in a particular way to honour their wishes.

 

But then why not change the ALRs back? There was a reason they did it, so if they let one cacher do it then why not for everyone?

Just because the ALR is no longer enforceable doesn't mean it's open season on ignoring 'requests' from the CO. It's just decency, that's all, to respect the CO's wishes and put a simple 5-word lie in the log. It's not like the owner is asking a lot...

[+The Blorenges]

I know everyone talked about the different issues with ALRs but I have one I like to ask.

A friend of mine did a liars cache. No where on the cache page does it say that there is a

logging requirement. After you log it in you get a message from the owner saying you have to use

a lie in the log or they will delete your log. I know this seems like a grey area but I think it isn't fair that the

owner can delete your log and admits it in the message to you it is a requirement. What can be done for a cacher who does this?

 

The long and the short of it is that if your friends signed the log (in regular, friendly manner) then the cache owners is not entitled to delete their log. They should not be trying to sneak an Additional Logging Requirement in by emailing legitimate finders and saying they'll delete the log unless it's edited to fit in with their style of cache.

 

However...

 

I've become a fan of Additional Logging Requests. I've seen a few neatly edited cache pages where the owners have simple asked cache finders to play along with their fun and do logs in a certain way. I think most cachers will comply with a request, within reason. The problem with something like the Liar's cache in this example is how would the cache owner be able to indicate on the cache page that they'd like the log to be written as some sort of tall tale without giving away the whole 'joke' of the cache in advance?

 

MrsB

[+baloo&bd]

The long and the short of it is that if your friends signed the log (in regular, friendly manner) then the cache owners is not entitled to delete their log.

 

Actually, they are entitled to and are within their rights doing so. The question is should they and the simple answer is no they should not.

 

That said, liars caches are fun. I know it was said as a joke, however even suggesting it be listed on the description that it is a liars cache is absurd. They did give instructions in the cache. Why not just go along with the fun? Otherwise just post a found it with nothing more.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I know this is a radical suggestion but how about playing nice and playing fair and logging the cache as it was intended to be logged. I know the cache owner can't force anyone to do so, yadda, yadda, yadda but still, honestly, it's only fair if the CO has gone to some effort to set up a particular cache that should be logged in a particular way to honour their wishes.

 

But then why not change the ALRs back? There was a reason they did it, so if they let one cacher do it then why not for everyone?

Just because the ALR is no longer enforceable doesn't mean it's open season on ignoring 'requests' from the CO. It's just decency, that's all, to respect the CO's wishes and put a simple 5-word lie in the log. It's not like the owner is asking a lot...

 

If the CO were actually "requesting" you play along, I would agree. The CO is forcing you by deleting your find unless you actually do "play along".

[+Rockin Roddy]

The long and the short of it is that if your friends signed the log (in regular, friendly manner) then the cache owners is not entitled to delete their log.

 

Actually, they are entitled to and are within their rights doing so. The question is should they and the simple answer is no they should not.

 

That said, liars caches are fun. I know it was said as a joke, however even suggesting it be listed on the description that it is a liars cache is absurd. They did give instructions in the cache. Why not just go along with the fun? Otherwise just post a found it with nothing more.

 

According to the change in guidelines, they are not allowed to delete the find...

[jholly]

This is a copy of the email minus the name of the cachers, cache and location.

 

I see you logged "XXXXXXXX" incorrectly and I have deleted your log entry. Please re-log correctly. XXXX, if you googled it, was the world's best liar. The cache description therefore is entirely made up (except for for the Russian on the cache page that when decrypted gave the cache location). Directions in the cache explained the deception and how to properly log. If you would please keep to the theme of the cache and keep the lie alive, I would most appreciate it. Thanks and hope to run into you on one of your caching adventures! Thanks for all the caches in XXXXXXXXXX

 

They think they do not need to abide by the no ALR rules because they send and email after deleting the log and tell the logger to log in the manner of the liars cache. Well they do need to abide by the rules. and that is a cache with an ALR. Since they don't say it on the cache page they are lucky someone has not deleted their cache.

 

Jim

[+bittsen]

Just put "DNF" on the cache log.

Or "this was fun".

Take all their SWAG and add a "TN" to the log.

Perhaps the log is fine as it is. Maybe there is already a lie in the log.

[+flask]

forward the cache owner's email to Groundspeak.

 

i hear they revoke deletion privilege from owners who enforce ALRs.

[+bafl01]

I feel that while some of you have a valid point in saying that the logger might as well play along. On the other hand if the CO knows the Groundspeak guidelines then they need to let people not willing to follow along do as they please. A request to follow along without deleting a log would be a lot more civil, but deleting a log is going to get restrictions placed on their account.

[the3gmen]

Is there anyway you could tell us just what your log said ?

 

I've looked back over my last 10 cache logs and can't see how anyone could read them and say that there isn't a lie in them. All you need to do is write a log that is more than "TNLNSL" and the owner can't possibly know if there was a lie in it or not.

 

I would contact the cache owner and tell them that just because there isn't an obvious lie in my log , that doesn't mean there isn't a lie.

Edited July 22, 2009 by the3gmen

[+Harry Dolphin]

Best solution so far: Relog as "Great Cache!" Obviously a lie!

Making an ALR a requirement is no longer permitted. That being said, recently, I have logged a few ALR caches. "Post a photo of yourself with the King Kong statue." I can deal with that. "Use the name of a Hershey candy in your log." "A kiss to the cache owner." It is noted that some logs did not comply with the request, and were not deleted. As per current guidelines, they are a suggestion, not a requirement.

[+Ike 13]

I would like to add. I think a liars cache, and I would take the time to make a great log. But the CO no longer has a right to delete your log on those grounds.

[+Unkle Fester]

 

They know but they still do it because they feel as long as it's not on the cache page it's ok

Then they are intentionally skirting the guidlines and the cache should be archived, or the CO's log delete ability should be revoked.

 

This then dips back into the beating a dead horse argument of "is it ok to delete a log". If you signed the cache log, you can log it online for your smiley.

 

my advice is to contact Groundspeak and end this foolishness

[AZcachemeister]

Best solution so far: Relog as "Great Cache!" Obviously a lie!

Making an ALR a requirement is no longer permitted. That being said, recently, I have logged a few ALR caches. "Post a photo of yourself with the King Kong statue." I can deal with that. "Use the name of a Hershey candy in your log." "A kiss to the cache owner." It is noted that some logs did not comply with the request, and were not deleted. As per current guidelines, they are a suggestion, not a requirement.

 

See above, this is how it is currently done.

I would usually honor an ADDITIONAL LOGGING REQUEST, but there might be cases where I am not so inclined. Since I found the cache, and signed the log, my online log should MUST stand as written.

Any cachers having their logs deleted under this scenario should contact the local reviewer to have their log re-instated and locked.

[CoyoteRed]

Sound like an interesting cache. If I had seen the request in the cache I'd probably have played along as long as I thought well enough of the cache.

 

However, if I had had my log deleted for not being adequately untruthful, I'd have re-logged with "I found your cache, but you deleted my log--so I went back and deleted your cache."

[+Avernar]

Just because the ALR is no longer enforceable doesn't mean it's open season on ignoring 'requests' from the CO. It's just decency, that's all, to respect the CO's wishes and put a simple 5-word lie in the log. It's not like the owner is asking a lot...

I noticed you put "requests" in quotes. Since the CO deleted the original log it's no longer a request but a demand. For that reason alone I wouldn't comply and get the reviewer involved.

[+Mule Ears]

The CO is being heavy-handed in trying to enforce the liar theme. That's unfortunate, and you have a right to get your back up about it. But if the cache has any merit at all, consider going along with the 'liar' requirement/request/suggestion and chewing out the CO in a private email. Liar caches are fragile things, and if you break the chain of tall-tales, you've killed the cache. If it's a lousy cache, feel free. Otherwise, consider going along for the sake of future finders.

[+mndvs737]

I adopted an ALR cache right around the time of the guidelines change -- it was placed in December 2006 and had been set up based on other similar caches around the US, and required that cachers post a 30-word essay as to why they are not hooked on geocaching in the logs (FTF had to post a 50-word essay). Well, after the adoption, I changed it over to traditional and edited the page to bring the wording in line with the guidelines -- I wanted to honor the spirit of the cache's existence, and hoped people would play along. Some cachers have done that, and I enjoy those logs. The other day, though, I got "tftc" as the log. Did it upset me a bit that they didn't try and say something a bit more? Yes, it did. Did I let it keep me awake that night? No, I did not. They choose to log the cache in their own way, which is acceptable by the guidelines, and I am letting their log stand. No email to request that they change their log to be more in line with the spirit of the cache, no Note posted to cache page asking people to play along -- I can go on until I am blue in the face wanting people to "play along" with the request, but if they don't, there is nothing that I can do to change that. However, the world goes on for another day, and there are more caches still to be found.

[+welch]

The long and the short of it is that if your friends signed the log (in regular, friendly manner) then the cache owners is not entitled to delete their log.

 

Actually, they are entitled to and are within their rights doing so. The question is should they and the simple answer is no they should not.

 

That said, liars caches are fun. I know it was said as a joke, however even suggesting it be listed on the description that it is a liars cache is absurd. They did give instructions in the cache. Why not just go along with the fun? Otherwise just post a found it with nothing more.

 

According to the change in guidelines, they are not allowed to delete the find...

...based solely on optional tasks.

[+wimseyguy]

ALR's are gone, and listings that contained them are not grandfathered. Even if there isn't anything on the cache page, the CO is still attempting to enforce something that is contrary to the guidelines.

 

But is it that hard to play along and simply add (as others have suggested) " Best cache ever, I'll remember this wonderful experience for a long time."

[+flask]

while i very much enjoyed ALRs and i do not mind most optional tasks, the CO who knows he can't legally require the task and deletes your log anyway really rubs me the wrong way.

 

that's worth a note to Groundspeak.

[d.c.e.edmo]

If one wants to do a liar's cache, then put a note on the log book or somewhere prominant on the cache so when someone finds it they know to create a story before they hit the website when they get home. I am new to the game, and this sounds like a very fun idea and will do a cache like this.

[+jellis]

If one wants to do a liar's cache, then put a note on the log book or somewhere prominant on the cache so when someone finds it they know to create a story before they hit the website when they get home. I am new to the game, and this sounds like a very fun idea and will do a cache like this.

You can do that as long as you don't put it in that you will delete their log. Words like "please" or "optional" are good. Otherwise it would fall under the ALR guidelines.