Alternative Geocaching websites

[+funkybro]

Hello all UK Geocachers!

 

I am aware that the "biggest" Geocache website is geocaching.com.

 

I was wondering if this was pretty much exclusively the only site used by cachers around here? Or do some people log their caches on more than one site?

 

The reason I ask is that I am investigating the possibility of creating an "open" or "free" equivalent of Geocaching.com -- one without advertising, without extra paid-for benefits, and a completely open developer's API. This would allow anybody to create their own free (or paid-for if they want) Geocaching apps. These apps would be able to make full use of live data (i.e. it would be far more robust and seamless than using pocket queries), and could run on mobile devices, desktop, or even interface to sites like Flickr and Twitter.

 

Would anybody be interested in making use of such a site? Or is everybody most likely to stick with Geocaching.com?

 

How do people feel about one company (Groundspeak) controlling, and making money out of, their geocaching data (and all their effort in hiding and finding caches)?

 

Any constructive feedback is welcomed!

 

Many thanks,

funkybro

[+keehotee]

Hello all UK Geocachers!

 

I am aware that the "biggest" Geocache website is geocaching.com.

 

I was wondering if this was pretty much exclusively the only site used by cachers around here? Or do some people log their caches on more than one site?

 

The reason I ask is that I am investigating the possibility of creating an "open" or "free" equivalent of Geocaching.com -- one without advertising, without extra paid-for benefits, and a completely open developer's API. This would allow anybody to create their own free (or paid-for if they want) Geocaching apps. These apps would be able to make full use of live data (i.e. it would be far more robust and seamless than using pocket queries), and could run on mobile devices, desktop, or even interface to sites like Flickr and Twitter.

 

Would anybody be interested in making use of such a site? Or is everybody most likely to stick with Geocaching.com?

 

How do people feel about one company (Groundspeak) controlling, and making money out of, their geocaching data (and all their effort in hiding and finding caches)?

 

Any constructive feedback is welcomed!

 

Many thanks,

funkybro

 

What - like this one... OpenCaching ??

[+funkybro]

Hello all UK Geocachers!

 

I am aware that the "biggest" Geocache website is geocaching.com.

 

I was wondering if this was pretty much exclusively the only site used by cachers around here? Or do some people log their caches on more than one site?

 

The reason I ask is that I am investigating the possibility of creating an "open" or "free" equivalent of Geocaching.com -- one without advertising, without extra paid-for benefits, and a completely open developer's API. This would allow anybody to create their own free (or paid-for if they want) Geocaching apps. These apps would be able to make full use of live data (i.e. it would be far more robust and seamless than using pocket queries), and could run on mobile devices, desktop, or even interface to sites like Flickr and Twitter.

 

Would anybody be interested in making use of such a site? Or is everybody most likely to stick with Geocaching.com?

 

How do people feel about one company (Groundspeak) controlling, and making money out of, their geocaching data (and all their effort in hiding and finding caches)?

 

Any constructive feedback is welcomed!

 

Many thanks,

funkybro

 

What - like this one... OpenCaching ??

 

Ehhh, mine might have activity a bit more recent than November 2005!!

 

What is that site anyway? Just a forum??

[+Matrix]

 

Ehhh, mine might have activity a bit more recent than November 2005!!

 

What is that site anyway? Just a forum??

 

Yes but http://opencaching.de/ is active if you can sprechen Deutsch

[+funkybro]

Ehhh, mine might have activity a bit more recent than November 2005!!

Look at the server time on the top left of the page just below the logo, seems the clock is slightly out

 

Also see:

http://www.navicache.com/

http://www.terracaching.com/

 

Ho-ho! Well still, there has been nothing happening for a month and a half at least.

 

So my question was does anybody use more than one site? Or any of these other sites? Are the advantages of the "openness" that I mentioned above things that people would place value upon?

 

funkybro

[+burtsbodgers]

Ehhh, mine might have activity a bit more recent than November 2005!!

Look at the server time on the top left of the page just below the logo, seems the clock is slightly out

 

Also see:

http://www.navicache.com/

http://www.terracaching.com/

 

Ho-ho! Well still, there has been nothing happening for a month and a half at least.

 

So my question was does anybody use more than one site? Or any of these other sites? Are the advantages of the "openness" that I mentioned above things that people would place value upon?

 

funkybro

 

Hi i only use GC. Com mainly because it has caches in my area. So why would i use those previously quoted.

however if there was a free site that was as comprehensive help full and easy to use i might consider.

I personaly dont mind the premium that GC charge as i think it is value for money, i also dont use any of the other apps as i dont need too.

As such i am not in a hurry to leave.

[+Haggis Hunter]

What you describe is the same as what geocaching.com was when it first started. It has got so popular that they need an income so that they can pay the staff who keep the site running. Adverts have only been present for no more than 2 years, if that? Premium membership costs next to nothing and you aren't forced to pay.

I think for what you pay, or adverts you have to put up with you get a service that out strips any of the other sites, and I think you would be extremely hard pushed to out do GC.com. However, I wish you the best of luck, but whilst GC.com gives me the best selection of caches, I will be sticking with them. Bit of a catch 22 really isn't it?

 

On a side note, is it not a bit necky posting such a suggestion on a forum hosted by the owners of GC.com?

[+funkybro]

[

What you describe is the same as what geocaching.com was when it first started. It has got so popular that they need an income so that they can pay the staff who keep the site running. Adverts have only been present for no more than 2 years, if that? Premium membership costs next to nothing and you aren't forced to pay.

I think for what you pay, or adverts you have to put up with you get a service that out strips any of the other sites, and I think you would be extremely hard pushed to out do GC.com. However, I wish you the best of luck, but whilst GC.com gives me the best selection of caches, I will be sticking with them. Bit of a catch 22 really isn't it?

 

Of course it has the broadest selection of caches. But that's about all it has going for it IMO. The (just about functional) Google Maps cache view aside, the rest of the site is a circa 2001 Web 1.0 throwback! It's so restrictive.

 

The only way for anybody else to include cache lists in an application is through these (let's face it) hideous pocket queries; these aren't even live, but generated asynchronously by a server and then emailed to you.

 

I can't even access a list of my own finds via RSS, for pity's sake!

 

And it's not that the facilities to create these don't exist, because there are official iPhone and Blackberry apps out there which do all these things... it's just that the general public aren't allowed access to them. So much wonderful stuff really could be created if these were all open, public and standard.

 

On a side note, is it not a bit necky posting such a suggestion on a forum hosted by the owners of GC.com?

 

Heh, possibly! If you can suggest a more appropriate forum then feel free :-)

 

funkybro

[lakeuk]

Not sure it's a goer, the site would need to be much better than the leading site plus you'd have the big problem of how to get enough caches in it for it to be useable, you can't use the details from this site unless the cache owner copies their details over.

 

I think the only way forward would be to look at bring back www.geocacheuk.com and improve on it (without impacting the geocaching.com model), this site was very popular for rating caches/downloading very basic geocache locations/stats on cachers.

Edited June 11, 2009 by lakeuk

[+sTeamTraen]

The reason I ask is that I am investigating the possibility of creating an "open" or "free" equivalent of Geocaching.com -- one without advertising, without extra paid-for benefits, and a completely open developer's API. This would allow anybody to create their own free (or paid-for if they want) Geocaching apps. These apps would be able to make full use of live data (i.e. it would be far more robust and seamless than using pocket queries), and could run on mobile devices, desktop, or even interface to sites like Flickr and Twitter.

Out of interest, what would be your revenue model for that? Spontaneous donations for no reward other than a warm feeling? Let us know how that works out for you. There's a guy sitting outside my local petrol station who's trying that, but he doesn't seem to drive a car...

 

How do people feel about one company (Groundspeak) controlling, and making money out of, their geocaching data (and all their effort in hiding and finding caches)?

About the same as I feel about Google making money by indexing and rehosting Web pages written by me which I didn't submit to them and didn't agree to them listing. Which is to say: "meh".

 

Groundspeak is about 0.01% the size of Google, but they both illustrate the fundamental point that on the Internet, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts: a huge amount of data items, all of which are worth exactly $0.00 individually, nevertheless acquires value only because someone has invested time and money in a system to aggregate it. I choose to regard the effort which I've put into the caches which I've placed and listed, as "payment" for the caches which I've been able to find because other people do the same. If someone's prepared to host all that for me for $30, or (for non PMs) a few minutes of eyeball time trying to avoid looking at Google ads, then good on them.

 

Of course it has the broadest selection of caches. But that's about all it has going for it IMO.

That seems to be a bit like saying "my local shopping centre has a large selection of shops selling things which people want to buy, but that's about all it has going for it".

 

People come to Geocaching (the game) to get outdoors and have fun, and they come to Geocaching.com to find lists of places where they can go to do that. That's really all that most people want. 90% of players don't even have a premium membership, so they are apparently reasonably satisfied with being able to search for caches near their house, browse the descriptions, and - gasp! - print them off (it's about two years since I printed a cache listing, but I'm always amazed to see how many people do it).

 

There's a higher proportion of "computer types" in this game than in the population as a whole, and it's natural for us geeks to look at the site from that world view. But if you get out to events and meet people, you'll find hardly anybody who wants more "exciting" features from the site. In fact, quite a few people moan whenever something is changed because the place where they used to click has moved or whatever. It's like a well-worn pair of walking boots: you wouldn't buy them new in that state, and there are smarter alternatives available, but the ones you have do the job and don't give you blisters.

 

I agree that some corners of the site are a little clunky, but it's not easy migrating the UI of hundreds of GB of SQL data (and dozens of TB of photographic data) while maintaining something close to 24/7 uptime. Groundspeak is about 0.01% of the size of Google or Facebook or Amazon; in fact you can see their entire staff, including admin, interns, support, and the people who package the merchandise here (I count 25 faces, plus the frog).

 

And of the other sites which have been mentioned, most are hardly models of great UI design. I quite like the appeal of OpenCaching's model, not least because it's not stuck with English, but there's a big difference between an open-source development project and a collaborative, volunteer-run system operations project. Successful examples of the latter are rare. That's why there are lots of great tools - proprietary and open-source - to let you manage offline collections of caches, but few successful online solutions because keeping a site up is hard (even without the 800,000 cache listings head start which Groundspeak has).

Edited June 11, 2009 by sTeamTraen

[+funkybro]

Out of interest, what would be your revenue model for that? Spontaneous donations for no reward other than a warm feeling? Let us know how that works out for you. There's a guy sitting outside my local petrol station who's trying that, but he doesn't seem to drive a car...

 

Don't worry, I already have a day job which funds my car, my rent, my GPSr (an S60 Nokia; my previous (otherwise perfectly adequate) Sony Ericsson doesn't have a geocaching app available for it) and my various geocaching trips

 

People come to Geocaching (the game) to get outdoors and have fun, and they come to Geocaching.com to find lists of places where they can go to do that. That's really all that most people want. 90% of players don't even have a premium membership, so they are apparently reasonably satisfied with being able to search for caches near their house, browse the descriptions, and - gasp! - print them off (it's about two years since I printed a cache listing, but I'm always amazed to see how many people do it).

 

I paid for a GC premium membership for no other reason than the "warm feeling" -- I could count the number of premium features I've tried (let alone use regularly) on the fingers of one hand.

 

I'm not sure how you figure out that "most people" wouldn't be glad to have a choice of free Geocaching apps for a range of handheld devices, or form subgroups of cachers with their friends so they could easily compare stats, or have fun widgets on their desktops that react to the number of caches they've found, or receive SMS to their phone to inform them about new hides in their area, or...

 

In fact, quite a few people moan whenever something is changed because the place where they used to click has moved or whatever. It's like a well-worn pair of walking boots: you wouldn't buy them new in that state, and there are smarter alternatives available, but the ones you have do the job and don't give you blisters.

 

So it's important that the UI is spot on, and this tends to happen more readily in open source projects where people can actually improve it themselves (Eclipse and XBMC spring immediately to mind).

 

Many thanks for your interesting feedback,

funkybro

[+Renegade Knight]

...

What is that site anyway? Just a forum??

When Opencaching was started the Germans got it done, while this side of the pond, got to the prototype stage, but didn't finish. It's probably possible to get an ISO image of that prototype database.

 

I've never given up on the concept of a cacher owned and controlled site, but I don't have the programming skills to build the site, and not much time to do more than pay the bills on some net addresses that will be handy.

 

Other sites:

Terracaching.com

Navicache.com

 

Hungary, France, and Russia have their own sites.

[+sTeamTraen]

Hungary, France, and Russia have their own sites.

Geocaching.hu and Geocaching.ru are indeed separate, proprietary sites (different from each other, too). However, I'm not aware of any other geocache listing site in France. Could you point me at the URL?

[+sTeamTraen]

Don't worry, I already have a day job which funds my car, my rent, my GPSr (an S60 Nokia; my previous (otherwise perfectly adequate) Sony Ericsson doesn't have a geocaching app available for it) and my various geocaching trips

OK, so programming in the evenings, shopping on Saturdays, caching on Sundays, and dealing with site crashes at 2am, aka "prime time for the Americans". You do want it to be a worldwide site, don't you?

 

I'm not sure how you figure out that "most people" wouldn't be glad to have a choice of free Geocaching apps for a range of handheld devices, or form subgroups of cachers with their friends so they could easily compare stats, or have fun widgets on their desktops that react to the number of caches they've found, or receive SMS to their phone to inform them about new hides in their area, or...

I've figured that out by talking to a large number of cachers in the flesh over five years.

 

"Free apps for a range of handheld devices"... OK, you define the spec. Don't forget that the entire handheld market changes about every six months. Enjoy going to the manufacturers and asking when they're going to fix this or that firmware bug. And don't forget the 24/7 support for when people have the app crash on them when night caching.

 

"Form subgroups of caches with their friends"... that would be a regional geocaching association, then. We already have those. Real cachers sitting around over a pint, having a chat, swapping coins and TBs. Cachers tend to be "real life" people.

 

"Fun widgets"... puh-leeze. I haven't seen my desktop for years. But if you really want one, you can pretty easily build a widget right now to go to Geocaching.com, log in, and get your cache total. Theoretically it's scraping the site, but for one page load per day I think they'd be generous.

 

And SMS notifications are already available if you forward Premium Member "Insta-notify" mails via your phone provider's email-to-SMS service. (If your plans include sending SMS directly from your site, you're going to need one or more extra paying jobs.)

 

Sorry if this seems curmudgeonly, but you have big plans and a pretty limited set of resources, and you're asking for something which has been discussed many, many times before. As a minimum, you're going to need help from other countries. Maybe ask the OpenCaching guys if you can help. But for now I'd bet that the overall UK community would perceive more benefit if you went out and placed another nice, well-stocked cache tomorrow in a "cool" place.

[+funkybro]

All right! So you don't like any of my sample ideas (which was just a random selection of the sort of thing which could be achieved, and no I wouldn't be doing them all personally, that is the whole idea of it being "open"!!!), and I can see you are clearly more than satisfied with the current range of facilities offered by the site. That's great for you.

 

On the other hand, I'd really love to be able to compare hide, find and FTF stats at a glance with a group of friends, or to have a message to Twitter automatically every time I log a new find.

 

I don't think every web admin the world over who has something running on Google App engine or similar needs to be awake 24/7 to respond to crashes. Oh, and I develop mobile phone software for a living.

 

What can't be denied is that features similar to the ones I have mentioned have plenty of take-up on plenty of other "open" sites where hacking is positively encouraged (Twitter, Flickr, BBC, Facebook...). Many of these things could be technically feasible and achievable TODAY were the API open rather than closed.

 

Where did "pretty limited set of resources" come from?

 

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Edited June 11, 2009 by funkybro

[+sTeamTraen]

or to have a message to Twitter automatically every time I log a new find.

They're getting there: http://www.geocaching.com/my/sharing.aspx (True, that's only if you log from the field, but I suspect that very few people are interested that you logged your 12 caches found today, at 10pm back at your house.)

 

I don't think every web admin the world over who has something running on Google App engine or similar needs to be awake 24/7 to respond to crashes.

Have a look through some of the messages in the "Geocaching.com Web site" forum when the site has issues at 2am Seattle time. A surprising number of people are unable to distingush between "site which supports fun outdoor activity is down" and "personal oxygen supply removed". Not your problem if you're just hosting stats, but cache data is a whole nother kettle of fish.

 

Again, there's programming, and there's network operations. I wouldn't say "ne'er the twain shall meet", but they are different worlds. I've crossed over between them several times in my working life and one of my current functions is getting people from the two worlds to understand the issues which the others face.

 

Oh, and I develop mobile phone software for a living.

A serious thought: why not talk to the people higher up your food chain and see if they think there's mileage in letting you do that at work, perhaps in "20% time" (if your employer is enlightened enough to have that concept)? Groundspeak are canny operators, and if someone who develops for, say, Android or Symbian could get some real resources behind an app, maybe everybody could be happy.

[+mtn-man]

Just have to love the irony of someone who thinks they have all the answers having to come to this site to attempt to drum up business.

 

Oh wait, yours is going to be free!

 

 

I'll stick with these guys for now.

 

 

Glad you think you alone can do better than this group. Can't wait to see all of the features you will provide and best of luck paying for the bandwidth with a free use site.

 

I'll think a bit about whether to close this topic. Since you are so web savvy, I am sure you can get your own forums rolling this afternoon, right? You have this all figured out, right?

[+Moote]

Funkybro, unfortunately I can't see your dream happening, it's not as simple as you would like. There are cost along the way that would have to be met, even many Open source sites have a big backers behind them. Think how lucky you are, that this site is 100% free to join and use, and if avoiding the odd Google ad is a problem to you; it's time to avoid the internet.

[Wilting]

Funkybro, I admire your optimism and I think it would be really good if you were able to develop such a site. As you will have noticed, if you dare to suggest that Groundspeak ISN'T the be all and end all TPTB will start throwing buckets of cold water on your ideas. As somone once said "Nil Carborundum Illegitemi"

 

Keep dreaming and better still, actually try and do something. I remember way back when, Microsoft IE was te only browser around until Netscape and then Firefox dared to suggest they could do better - and blow me , they did!

 

That being said, I'm glad TPTB are allowing the idea to be discussed here. Thanks.

[modernman]

I don't have a problem with Groundspeak trying to make a buck for the service they provide. However some of their policies seem very retro. The fact that they have a "by invitation only" API, aren't addressing the issues with pocket queries, seem to ignore platforms other then the iPhone, and most importantly don't offer RSS feeds makes me wonder how long it will be until they have real competition. I'm hoping they see the light and become more open soon since I don't think this hobby has a big enough abundance to handle fragmentation.

[+funkybro]

I don't have a problem with Groundspeak trying to make a buck for the service they provide. However some of their policies seem very retro. The fact that they have a "by invitation only" API, aren't addressing the issues with pocket queries, seem to ignore platforms other then the iPhone, and most importantly don't offer RSS feeds makes me wonder how long it will be until they have real competition. I'm hoping they see the light and become more open soon since I don't think this hobby has a big enough abundance to handle fragmentation.

 

Thanks again to everyone for feedback and (a bit of) encouragement!

 

Before this thread gets closed down, if anybody is interested in finding out more about my project then please check out my Twitter feed:

 

http://twitter.com/opengeocaching

 

And tell all your friends!

 

Thanks!

funkybro

[+Geotrotters]

While it's great to hear cachers coming up with new idea's to improve/freshen up the game/sport, I [personally] don't think creating a site to compete directly with Geocaching.com would be the best way to go. There are already sites like Terracaching.com & Navicache.com which haven't managed to bite into Groundspeaks stronghold. There have also been alternative TB sites which also fail to make an impact.

 

The main reason would be that there are currently over 40,000 caches in the UK alone listed on GC.com. People don't really want to log onto multiple sites to log their daily finds, especially as the totals would be split. eg. GC.com = 865 finds, Brand X = 32 finds etc. Everything can be found on GC.com and while the local forum's have proved that people are willing to use other sites for socialising, they aren't really interested in another site that wouldn't really offer anything new. [imo]

 

I personally think the best idea would be to note the suggestion made by LakeUK about possibly bringing back GeocachingUK which, like he pointed out, was very popular. You would probably stand a better chance of hosting a successful UK site that compliments Groundspeak rather than competes against them. GeocachingUK was officially recognized by Groundspeak & Geocaching.com.

 

You would obviously need to contact Teasel about the possibly of bringing it back as a more open source project

 

Geocaching Australia did go down the route of hosting their own cache listings but I don't know how successful that has been and how many Australians still use Groundspeak.

 

Rather than risking antagonising TPTB by touting for business on here, you may be better asking for the views of cachers using the local forums. Details of the local forums can be found on GAGB.

 

Good luck with your plans whichever route you decide to take and I'll keep an eye out for any future updates.

 

Update: - I've just noticed your Twitter link. I don't use, or wish to use, Twitter and would prefer any updates to be posted on local Geocaching forums. Just my personal choice as I know plenty of people do use it and are quite happy doing so.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Geotrotters

[+mtn-man]

Frankly, I see this as "Oh look, another person who will show everyone on the planet how its done!"

 

This isn't the first time we've heard this. Won't be the last. If this was *soooooo* easy, you would see site after site popping up. Reason? Some might actually try to make money off of this. Imagine that!

 

Ironically, you can list a cache here and list it on any other site you want. The Terra site wants their listings to be exclusive to their site, so they are the restrictive site (though they don't enforce that). The Navi site never made any updates and looks the same as it did years ago. As mentioned, people don't even want to visit other sites, so getting them to another geocaching site to log finds might be a stretch. Still, you never know. The web is a wide open space. Feel free to show us how it is done. I think you would be better off with a forum than a Twitter account by the way, but you do have all the answers.

 

I also think there is an ulterior motive here. I see denied caches due to guideline issues. I might guess that part of the open geocaching thought is a free-for-all listing service. Good luck with that.

[+GAZ]

Answering the OP's question......I don't use any other listing site. I am registered with one, though find that it is way behind GC.com. I have never logged a cache on it, all but one is too far away from me.

 

GC.com does everything I want it to do. I look for caches via Google Earth (which I still have, thankfully, but that's another story!), or look at the nearest ones to home. I put them in the GPSr and find them....hopefully I log them, and my finds are recognised.

 

I am a basic member, which suits me. I don't want, or need any advantages that go with Premium Membership, so I am sure I wouldn't need any advantages that would be available on another site.

 

For me, GC.com does what it says on the tin, and to go anywhere else is a non starter.

 

Good luck with your quest, anyway.

 

Gaz

[+gse1986]

Whilst I have looked at other caching sites to see what they have to offer, Geocaching.com is by far the best.

 

That said I don't think the attitudes of the mods was really called for, the guy has an idea, let him have his idea

 

As a developer though I believe that open API access would make Geocaching.com even better (yes i know traffic costs etc are a huge issue). We'll see anyway - Geocaching.com are doing a great job

[+sTeamTraen]

I also think there is an ulterior motive here. I see denied caches due to guideline issues. I might guess that part of the open geocaching thought is a free-for-all listing service. Good luck with that.

Ah. I think that's how most of the other listing sites got started. And most of them have ended up with listing guidelines not unlike Groundspeak's.

 

Geocaching Australia did go down the route of hosting their own cache listings but I don't know how successful that has been and how many Australians still use Groundspeak.

According to geocaching.com.au there are about 850 "GCA" caches. Take away the virtuals and locationless and it's probably less then 700. There are about 18,400 caches in Australia listed on geocaching.com.

 

The countries I know of where the non-Groundspeak site has a larger number of caches are Hungary, Russia, and Poland (opencaching.pl). In each case I think that language issues, plus the relatively low tendency of residents of those countries to travel abroad (so they won't miss the international aspects of the game) have probably contributed to the appeal of the "national" listing site.

 

That said I don't think the attitudes of the mods was really called for, the guy has an idea, let him have his idea

I can't think offhand of many other commercial Web sites where you could open a thread discussing starting a rival organisation and not have it closed down within about 5 minutes. To get helpful advice about your chances of success could be seen as a bonus.

 

As a developer though I believe that open API access would make Geocaching.com even better (yes i know traffic costs etc are a huge issue).

I'm guessing that traffic costs are a distant second behind the fact that the cache database is the "crown jewels" for Groundspeak. At the moment it's pretty easy for them to limit the amount of cache data which any one person or small group of people can grab (by a small coincidence, the number of caches on the site today is almost exactly the number which a single Premium Member can download in one year) since coding "5 PQs per day max" is easy. Limiting people to seeing some or all details of 2500 caches per day through the API would be harder, and more risky.

Edited June 11, 2009 by sTeamTraen

[modernman]

Frankly, I see this as "Oh look, another person who will show everyone on the planet how its done!"

 

This isn't the first time we've heard this. Won't be the last. If this was *soooooo* easy, you would see site after site popping up. Reason? Some might actually try to make money off of this. Imagine that!

 

Ironically, you can list a cache here and list it on any other site you want. The Terra site wants their listings to be exclusive to their site, so they are the restrictive site (though they don't enforce that). The Navi site never made any updates and looks the same as it did years ago. As mentioned, people don't even want to visit other sites, so getting them to another geocaching site to log finds might be a stretch. Still, you never know. The web is a wide open space. Feel free to show us how it is done. I think you would be better off with a forum than a Twitter account by the way, but you do have all the answers.

 

I also think there is an ulterior motive here. I see denied caches due to guideline issues. I might guess that part of the open geocaching thought is a free-for-all listing service. Good luck with that.

 

Was this tone really necessary? To be blunt geocaching.com has the potential to make a lot of money, and good for you, I hope you have all the success you deserve. However very few businesses succeed with poor customer service. You got here first and you have the chance to own this small corner of the "interweb", but being first doesn't guarantee countued success or license to treat you customers badly, think I'm wrong? I've got three letters for you A - O - L.

[+mtn-man]

Ha! Dude, you miss the word "Volunteer" in my signature line? Yeah buddy. I got a cool t-shirt last year. Some cool coins to give out too. I really liked the design I have to say, but that isn't the topic.

 

The tone was one of reality. You need to face up to reality. There have been other sites. None of the ones that survive have any features that come close to this one. That is a cold and hard fact. This site, though it is having troubles yes, still continues to push more features forward that the customers want. Sure, it would be easy to be like the other sites and just have a simple listing service, but as I have said before, this site not only welcomes developers, it gives them free advertising space. Name any other site that has an application that allows you to push cache pages directly to a GPS unit directly. This one has two manufacturers at this point (Garmin and DeLorme, and you can blame Magellan for not working with Groundspeak, ask any Magellan user about "customer service"). Bring something to the table instead of just blowing smoke. Facts shows that they will look at it and will promote it if it works.

 

I could have very easily closed this topic. It is almost cheesy to come to another board and beg for people to follow you don't you think? I decided to leave it open though. Like I say, those who have been around have seen it before and know where this one will probably go. If Funkybro can create the end-all be-all site, best of luck. I've even offered suggestions that are being ignored. Just look at the demographic. A Twitter account isn't the way to go.

 

All I am saying is "put your money where your mouth is". Something you can do right now and show everyone your ability is to write an iPhone app that is approved by Groundspeak and puts theirs to shame. If you look, there are a few out there to compete with theirs. Impress everyone and make some money for yourself at the same time selling the app.

[+Haggis Hunter]

On a side note, is it not a bit necky posting such a suggestion on a forum hosted by the owners of GC.com?

 

Heh, possibly! If you can suggest a more appropriate forum then feel free :-)

 

funkybro

With pleasure, and it's even hosted on this site.

 

Before this thread gets closed down, if anybody is interested in finding out more about my project then please check out my Twitter feed:

 

http://twitter.com/opengeocaching

 

And tell all your friends!

 

Thanks!

funkybro

I was interested, but apparently I need to open a Twitter account to see it, so I am no longer that interested for if I wanted a twitter account I would have had one by now.

Perhaps for such a project you need to start by having a link that is accessible for all? In the bigger scheme of things, I know nothing about the net, but I would have even thought that would have been a prudent move!

[+drdick&vick]

Quite agree, if, as you say, you want an open caching site for everyone I think something other that an twitter site is needed. I for one have no intention of opening a twitter account so that means 'I'm Out'.

[+Primitive Person]

...

What is that site anyway? Just a forum??

When Opencaching was started the Germans got it done, while this side of the pond, got to the prototype stage, but didn't finish. It's probably possible to get an ISO image of that prototype database.

 

I've never given up on the concept of a cacher owned and controlled site, but I don't have the programming skills to build the site, and not much time to do more than pay the bills on some net addresses that will be handy.

 

Other sites:

Terracaching.com

Navicache.com

 

Hungary, France, and Russia have their own sites.

 

I honestly can't see why so many people complain about this site - honestly, doing better than this will be so much effort it's just not worth it. GC.com costs next to nothing to use, and I've never had an issue with it, or the way it's run. I've got plenty of software running on my Windows Mobile device that gets me to the tupperware, including GCz which can access the database without Pocket Queries.

 

I can't see why it would be worth the extensive effort to set up a "rival" site - I recently joined Navicache to see if I was missing out on anything, and the site is dreadful compared to this one. There are hundreds and hundreds of caches within a few miles of my house here, and on Navicache they can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The site is also extremely un-user-friendly.

 

I know people have issues with GC.com, but on a day-to-day basis, it's very, very usable and does the job just fine. If you really want to do something to make caching better and improve the technology, volunteer to help out here.

 

I can't help but feel that a lot of attempts to start new sites hark back to the "good old days" when, to be frank, caching was somewhat elitist, and there's a lot of resentment that more people are into it now.

 

Lee

[+gse1986]

...

What is that site anyway? Just a forum??

When Opencaching was started the Germans got it done, while this side of the pond, got to the prototype stage, but didn't finish. It's probably possible to get an ISO image of that prototype database.

 

I've never given up on the concept of a cacher owned and controlled site, but I don't have the programming skills to build the site, and not much time to do more than pay the bills on some net addresses that will be handy.

 

Other sites:

Terracaching.com

Navicache.com

 

Hungary, France, and Russia have their own sites.

 

I honestly can't see why so many people complain about this site - honestly, doing better than this will be so much effort it's just not worth it. GC.com costs next to nothing to use, and I've never had an issue with it, or the way it's run. I've got plenty of software running on my Windows Mobile device that gets me to the tupperware, including GCz which can access the database without Pocket Queries.

 

I can't see why it would be worth the extensive effort to set up a "rival" site - I recently joined Navicache to see if I was missing out on anything, and the site is dreadful compared to this one. There are hundreds and hundreds of caches within a few miles of my house here, and on Navicache they can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The site is also extremely un-user-friendly.

 

I know people have issues with GC.com, but on a day-to-day basis, it's very, very usable and does the job just fine. If you really want to do something to make caching better and improve the technology, volunteer to help out here.

 

I can't help but feel that a lot of attempts to start new sites hark back to the "good old days" when, to be frank, caching was somewhat elitist, and there's a lot of resentment that more people are into it now.

 

Lee

 

Whilst I can't confirm this having not run a packet inspector on my windows mobile phone using GCZ, I believe that the only way the program can legitimately get the data is by screen scraping which is prohibited by the terms of use of Geocaching.com. I've toyed with the idea, but screen scraping will place a larger burden on the servers than opening up the API would.

[+gse1986]

grrr double post:(

Edited June 12, 2009 by gse1986

[modernman]

Ha! Dude, you miss the word "Volunteer" in my signature line? Yeah buddy. I got a cool t-shirt last year. Some cool coins to give out too. I really liked the design I have to say, but that isn't the topic.

 

The tone was one of reality. You need to face up to reality.

 

You obviously feel victimized by your volunteer work and have decided to take it out on members of the forum. Maybe you used to like volunteering but I'm guessing that was a long time ago. If you feel you're being taken advantage of maybe you need to take a break. That's the reality you need to face.

[+mongoose39uk]

Ha! Dude, you miss the word "Volunteer" in my signature line? Yeah buddy. I got a cool t-shirt last year. Some cool coins to give out too. I really liked the design I have to say, but that isn't the topic.

 

The tone was one of reality. You need to face up to reality.

 

You obviously feel victimized by your volunteer work and have decided to take it out on members of the forum. Maybe you used to like volunteering but I'm guessing that was a long time ago. If you feel you're being taken advantage of maybe you need to take a break. That's the reality you need to face.

[+mtn-man]

Ha! Dude, you miss the word "Volunteer" in my signature line? Yeah buddy. I got a cool t-shirt last year. Some cool coins to give out too. I really liked the design I have to say, but that isn't the topic.

 

The tone was one of reality. You need to face up to reality.

 

You obviously feel victimized by your volunteer work and have decided to take it out on members of the forum. Maybe you used to like volunteering but I'm guessing that was a long time ago. If you feel you're being taken advantage of maybe you need to take a break. That's the reality you need to face.

Heh. Wow, I thought I was being kind of nice. Maybe I should have just closed the topic, eh? I even pointed to the demographic and made suggestions. "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink."

 

Never have I felt taken advantage of. Besides, I get all the popcorn and raspberry ice cream I want.

 

[+MissJenn]

Let's all take a deep breath and re-read funkybro's original topic. And stick to it, please.

I was wondering if this was pretty much exclusively the only site used by cachers around here? Or do some people log their caches on more than one site?

 

The reason I ask is that I am investigating the possibility of creating an "open" or "free" equivalent of Geocaching.com -- one without advertising, without extra paid-for benefits, and a completely open developer's API. This would allow anybody to create their own free (or paid-for if they want) Geocaching apps. These apps would be able to make full use of live data (i.e. it would be far more robust and seamless than using pocket queries), and could run on mobile devices, desktop, or even interface to sites like Flickr and Twitter.

 

Would anybody be interested in making use of such a site? Or is everybody most likely to stick with Geocaching.com?

 

How do people feel about one company (Groundspeak) controlling, and making money out of, their geocaching data (and all their effort in hiding and finding caches)?

 

On a side note, is it not a bit necky posting such a suggestion on a forum hosted by the owners of GC.com?

ROFL.

Groundspeak must be crazy but I actually don't mind personally.

 

funkybro, I wish you well. I ask, too, that you set aside any feelings of being put-upon in favor of heeding the good albeit painful points made above regarding how difficult this venture is. Learn from those who speak from a lot of experience in this game and in these forums.

 

If you plan to scrape any site data, stop. That's not allowed. Nor is it cool.

If you are successful without scraping the site, please re-read our Forum Guidelines and TOU to see how it may apply to your venture.

[+Renegade Knight]

Hungary, France, and Russia have their own sites.

Geocaching.hu and Geocaching.ru are indeed separate, proprietary sites (different from each other, too). However, I'm not aware of any other geocache listing site in France. Could you point me at the URL?

They call them cyste's (or something like that). My own website used to have a link, but I've not rebuilt it since changing hosts.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

...The reason I ask is that I am investigating the possibility of creating an "open" or "free" equivalent of Geocaching.com -- one without advertising, without extra paid-for benefits, and a completely open developer's API. This would allow anybody to create their own free (or paid-for if they want) Geocaching apps. ...

 

This was the opencaching model. It's got some flaws that will get in the way of it's long term survival (IMO). For a site to work it needs two things. Income, and Support. GC.com has solved both by one method. I think another method is possible but it has to offer something missing from the user standpont. Something that quite frankly no other site yet has offered as well. The exceptions are smaller sites filling a niche but by virtue of the niche they would be hard pressed to challenge GC.com outside their following.

[+sTeamTraen]

They call them cyste's (or something like that). My own website used to have a link, but I've not rebuilt it since changing hosts.

Ah, Cistes. Started in 2002 as an alternative to geocaching - you don't need a GPS. There are allegedly 58,000 of them, although I reckon about 1/3 are missing (the notion of archiving is a little hazy on that site).

 

In effect, it's letterboxing without a stamp, except that trading something is mandatory, more important than signing the log. A cool game in its own way, with the same high DNF rate as letterboxing. On many sites where there's a cache (10,600 in France at this writing) you'll find a ciste. Or two. Or three... after all, with no coordinates, there's no chance of a proximity check, and the hides-to-finds ratio of the average player is higher than on Geocaching.com.

 

The Cistes game takes quite a chunk of the potential Geocaching "market" in France, but that market in itself is 100% "owned" by Groundspeak.

[+MartyBartfast]

My twopennorth:

 

Completely on topic:

I looked at Terra and Navi some time ago, but didn't bother with them because :-

 

1. There just weren't enough caches on there.

 

2. The websites were pretty poor, which meant I didn't feel inclined to help the situation by placing my own caches.

 

3. I don't have any particular gripe with the way Groundspeak does things so have no particular reason to go elsewhere.

 

So if you came up with something that addressed 1 & 2 then I would be interested, I'm also an advocate of OpenSource so I'd be likely to support what you're proposing out of principle.

 

Slightlt off topic :

I think that some of mtn-man's comments vis-a-vis your chances of rivaling the GC.com site were a little condescending, if everyone thought that way then we'd have no Open Source movement, no Linux, no Firefox, etc. However he (and others) do have a point.

 

With the OpenSource model you have a very good chance of producing good software, possibly much better than that which GC.com offers, and that could be done relatively cheaply with comunity involvement; however at the end of the process if you want to host a site with data for x,000 caches, and n,000 members you need to finance the servers, the bandwidth and the round the clock support, which requires a business model and an income stream. Personally I thing the way GC.com finances their operation is pretty good and we get a lot for our money, which is another reason why I continue to use them and pay for membership.

 

There's nothing to stop you starting the S/W development, who knows if it's OpenSource and you come up with something good you could end up with Groundspeak adopting it to run GC.com

[+sTeamTraen]

There's nothing to stop you starting the S/W development, who knows if it's OpenSource and you come up with something good you could end up with Groundspeak adopting it to run GC.com

It seems that that's exactly what Groundspeak has done with live.geocaching.com, which, according to its developers with whom I've spoken, actually does access the Groundspeak API. So apparently Groundspeak opened up to a bunch of guys who came to them with a cool idea and were prepared to work with them.

[+the family bu]

We live in a democratic society (supposedly) and the idea of monopolies are not allowed. I am new to caching and have only been a member of GS since Feb 2009. We have a simple Garmin Etrek and still using paper to write co-ords and clues etc - so maybe I am not qualified to comment, but I will anyway. GS has everything that I currently need, I do not know how to create pocket queries, I don't own an i-phone and I don't download waypoints to my GPSr. This does not mean that I wouldn't do these things if I knew how or had the apparatus to do it. But what I do champion is people's freedom to 'try'. If people are identifying gaps in GS - then coming up with a solution is very enterprising. But is there any need to try to reinvent the wheel. Collobration is maybe the key - why not develop your ideas and work with GS to develop the site into something more technologically advanced (if it is needed - I don't know).

I would be lost without GS and it is my favourite site.

 

I am not trying to antagonise anyone and I thank those that volunteer their time to keep GS going. But also I say to those that they think they have something to offer - "give it a go" - see what you can come up and then decide what the most appropriate thing to do with it.

 

Anyways happy caching to one and all - Mumma Bu

[+funkybro]

Hello again all!

 

@MissJenn: No I don't scrape the site, and nor would I as that's a really rubbish way of doing it! I'd much rather have robust, well-structured APIs to use as I please. GS are clearly in no mood to give me this, so I'm doing my own

 

@MartyBarfast: Great points, community involvement could provide a nice API and a whole host of interesting websites and apps making use of it. With regards to servers and bandwidth, I'm looking with interest at Google App Engine at least to get the project up and running; this would need to be re-evaluated if and when the load grows beyond what they offer.

 

@HaggisHunter (love the name!!): Keep the faith! In its defence, Twitter is actually an effective way for me to provide updates and gather ideas from people, without going to a full-blown blog (although that may be useful in future). No you don't NEED to sign-up in order to read my updates.

 

@the family bu: I can promise you that the people who keep Groundspeak going are not volunteers!!

 

@mtn-man: I'm not sure whether you read my initial posts before flaming me. I CAN'T currently write an iPhone app which does everything I want! That is, in essence, the point I'm making. And finally: this is a hobby whose participants are, in general, very friendly and welcoming. As forum moderator here, are you not supposed to be a representative of this hobby? Surely then, part of that should be to reflect the warm nature of your fellow cachers? Quite frankly, I think your attitude absolutely stinks.

 

funkybro

[+keehotee]

As forum moderator here, are you not supposed to be a representative of this hobby? Surely then, part of that should be to reflect the warm nature of your fellow cachers? Quite frankly, I think your attitude absolutely stinks.

 

Actually I would have thought, as forum moderator here, he is a representative of Groundspeak - and therefore being incredibly tolerant of you openly using a forum financed by them (and indirectly by the people that don't have a problem with the site as it is) to try to drum up support for a competing service ?????

[modernman]

I just want to clarify some of the comments I made (for anyone bored or interested). I really like what Groundspeak has done/is doing. As someone who was worked on a number of mid sized social networking sites (as a developer so my POV might be a limited) I've seen how hard it is to get and keep an audience. I looked at the alternatives to Groundspeak just to see what other people were doing and geocaching.com is way ahead of the others. Also (as much fun as geocaching is) I can't imagine geocaching growing beyond a niche hobby with a limited audience. Any comments I've made have been to get clarification or to get my voice heard and (hopefully) provide positive criticism.

 

having said all of the above, I hope Groundspeak becomes friendlier to small developers. It's great that gps manufactures are working with Groundspeak; but when I see how many "mash-up" or simple little programs that are created everyday I can't help but think Groundspeak is missing out on a small but dedicated group of advocates.

 

Personally, I could think of a dozen little small apps that I could build and would give away for the android or blackberry platforms, if I had some clear understanding of how to go about this without breaking the TOS. I doubt anything I come up with would take away from the iPhone app (for example).

 

If you stuck it out this long into the post thanks, someday I'll learn the art of brevity.

[Deceangi]

~

 

@the family bu: I can promise you that the people who keep Groundspeak going are not volunteers!!

 

~

 

funkybro

 

Maybe you need to research the details of your subject a little bit more thoroughly, that is unless your going to List any cache submitted. Otherwise your going to be extremely busy dealing with irate Landowners who have found the caches you've listed which have been placed without their permission some where they've physically removed the container, others where they want the cache removed from the site.

 

Oh and add in Local County Councils The 2 Governments and the Assemblies different departments for Heritage & Nature and that's just in the UK. How about the Landowner who holds you responsible because a Dry Stone Wall on his/her property is damaged due to a Geocache you have listed on your site.

 

All caches listed on GC are Reviewed by Unpaid Volunteers! Who put in many hours per week reviewing the New Cache Submissions that come in. Oh and we also deal with Landowner complaints about caches they have found on their Land W

[+funkybro]

~

 

@the family bu: I can promise you that the people who keep Groundspeak going are not volunteers!!

 

~

 

funkybro

 

Maybe you need to research the details of your subject a little bit more thoroughly, that is unless your going to List any cache submitted. Otherwise your going to be extremely busy dealing with irate Landowners who have found the caches you've listed which have been placed without their permission some where they've physically removed the container, others where they want the cache removed from the site.

 

Oh and add in Local County Councils The 2 Governments and the Assemblies different departments for Heritage & Nature and that's just in the UK. How about the Landowner who holds you responsible because a Dry Stone Wall on his/her property is damaged due to a Geocache you have listed on your site.

 

All caches listed on GC are Reviewed by Unpaid Volunteers! Who put in many hours per week reviewing the New Cache Submissions that come in. Oh and we also deal with Landowner complaints about caches they have found on their Land W

 

Interesting. So these volunteers all offer their time for the greater good of the game, and absolutely don't mind that their hard unpaid work directly puts money in the pockets of GS?

[+Haggis Hunter]

@HaggisHunter (love the name!!):

Thanks I like it

 

No you don't NEED to sign-up in order to read my updates.

 

I'm afraid you are going to have to give me an idiots guide on how to read your updates without signing up. I have just taken another look and at the top of the page it says this -

 

Hey there! opengeocaching is using Twitter.

Twitter is a free service that lets you keep in touch with people through the exchange of quick, frequent answers to one simple question: What are you doing? Join today to start receiving opengeocaching's updates.

[+funkybro]

@HaggisHunter (love the name!!):

Thanks I like it

 

No you don't NEED to sign-up in order to read my updates.

 

I'm afraid you are going to have to give me an idiots guide on how to read your updates without signing up. I have just taken another look and at the top of the page it says this -

 

Hey there! opengeocaching is using Twitter.

Twitter is a free service that lets you keep in touch with people through the exchange of quick, frequent answers to one simple question: What are you doing? Join today to start receiving opengeocaching's updates.

 

Yep and if you cast your eyes about two inches downwards it should list a couple of one-line updates which I've made so far?

 

I've just signed out and it still lets me view the update so I'd have thought you would be OK to see it.