Alternative Geocaching websites

[+Happy Humphrey]

I've logged "on the fly" a few times using standard Groundspeak-approved technology (and without needing a PQ). I know that you can do it easily enough via various Groundspeak apps. For the reasons outlined above (e.g. you don't want to stand around in the rain on top of a mountain trying to write a log entry when it's easy to do it later in the pub!), I don't normally bother.

A combination of GSAK macros, Cachemate and Pocket Queries give me a good enough setup for 99% of caches. I've no idea why you don't think Cachemate/GPXSonar etc. can't render the text well; it's perfectly readable, and after all most caches can be found just using the hint and coordinates (even if the PQ is a few days out of date; it's not some sort of scientific project, it's just finding a few boxes in the woods).

 

If you're going to sell us the idea of Open geocaching (or at least your flavour of it, in contrast to all the other Opengeocaching projects) then it might be worth outlining the advantages, in words that the average geocacher would easily understand (with no computer acronyms!). I for one, have no idea how it would benefit me, despite all the words you've written in this thread. As far as I can tell, I would end up being able to access an empty database when out in the field, instead of the Groundspeak database containing hundreds of thousands of caches.

 

Also, your attitude might have to be toned down a bit if you want to gain support rather than drive it away!

[+Guanajuato]

Not sure if I've missed it but how do you find out which application you shouldn't use if it can't be named... I may be using it and I don't know? Yours confused MaxKim.

I too am a little confused. Anyone care to let me know the name of the App? I don't THINK I'm using it, and if I am I will stop using the functionality that is problematic, if it can be made clear what that is.

 

Sorry to drag it off-topic a little.

 

The fundamental issue of FunkyBro's OP seems to be enabling interaction between community-developed apps and the GC database. Clearly, such interaction is possible, but GC are limiting the availability to certain selected developers. It's their website, so they can do as they please. But it would be nice if those of us who use the site could (help) develop such apps and/or use them.

 

The starting of an alternative site has huge problems, mostly demonstrated so adequately by the general rubbishness of TC, NC & OpenCaching. Those issues seem to be clouding the underlying issue of a widely available Programming interface.

 

I do think the way FunkyBro was slapped down with such glee was a bit off. To their credit, GS do seem to be letting this run.

 

[Chudley Cannons]

I do think the way FunkyBro was slapped down with such glee was a bit off. To their credit, GS do seem to be letting this run.

 

:(

It will continue to run as long as no one mentions ******* [name removed to save Greg having to do it]

[+Happy Humphrey]

It will continue to run as long as no one mentions ******* [name removed to save Greg having to do it]

It will certainly be closed as soons as someone mentions %%%%% %%%%%%%%!!!!!!!!

 

[+keehotee]

Yeah maybe... I just can't stand pocket queries! They're really cumbersome, out of date quickly, hardly anything can render the text inside them nicely, and you have to load them before you go (limiting you in terms of spontaneous caching somewhere new).

 

Hmmm...

 

Cumbersome? In what way?

I get mine through daily - to be honest I'm not too concerned if I miss a log that might turn up whilst I'm out caching.... what other ways do they go out of date fast enough to count?

Text renders fine on my iPAQ ... HTML via GSAK.... what are you using?

I do have to load them before I go, yes. I've got a macro that does it for me. OK, sometimes it's a bit of a drag having to put the pda on it's cradle, but hey - no pain, no gain

And luckily, in nearly 6 years of caching, I've been lucky enough to not be instantaneously teleported to anywhere I haven't been expecting to go caching. If I do end up somewhere I hadn't intended to cache, I can usually go online with my phone and read the nearest caches anyway....

[+funkybro]

Yeah maybe... I just can't stand pocket queries! They're really cumbersome, out of date quickly, hardly anything can render the text inside them nicely, and you have to load them before you go (limiting you in terms of spontaneous caching somewhere new).

 

Hmmm...

 

Cumbersome? In what way?

I get mine through daily - to be honest I'm not too concerned if I miss a log that might turn up whilst I'm out caching.... what other ways do they go out of date fast enough to count?

Text renders fine on my iPAQ ... HTML via GSAK.... what are you using?

I do have to load them before I go, yes. I've got a macro that does it for me. OK, sometimes it's a bit of a drag having to put the pda on it's cradle, but hey - no pain, no gain

And luckily, in nearly 6 years of caching, I've been lucky enough to not be instantaneously teleported to anywhere I haven't been expecting to go caching. If I do end up somewhere I hadn't intended to cache, I can usually go online with my phone and read the nearest caches anyway....

I should wait and reply later I guess... please understand it has been difficult in this thread not to get irritated and to feel like people are being deliberately obstructive.

 

In what way are PQs cumbersome?

 

Currently to cache using handheld device with PQs:

1) Pay my GS subscription fee (at least I think PQs are only available to premium members, correct me if I'm wrong).

2) Set up PQ, manually entering the co-ordinates of where I want it centred (assuming it's not my home location, and I don't think you can just choose a location on a map). This consists of completing a form with more fields than I think I have ever seen on the web.

3) Wait for it to be emailed to me

4) Save the attachment

5) Unpack the GPX out of the zip

6) Connect device to PC using USB cable/bluetooth

7) Transfer PQ

8) Load it up on software on device

 

Caching on the fly using a dedicated mobile phone app querying the live DB:

1) Fire up caching app on mass market hardware

2) Watch caches appear on screen.

 

And such a mobile caching app is just ONE possible application of an open caching API.

 

In addition, it is the principle of the data being owned by the people who created it. Has the issue of what would happen to all the cache data if Groundspeak were to go out of business ever been addressed I wonder?

[+mtn-man]

The only device I've seen have trouble with a PQ file is the Garmin Oregon. I have seen some issues there. I've used GPXSpinner (my preference for Palm PDA), Cachemate, GPS Sonar and the iPod Touch. I've seen Cacheberry in use. I've never seen issues on those devices.

 

I don't think you understand PQ's totally.

 

I pay my fee yearly. I don't do that every time I want a PQ.

 

Most folks probably run the same set of PQ's, so that isn't a big deal. They don't redo them every time. I travel a lot and am out the door in five minutes if I create a new one in a hotel. That's start to finish.

 

Keep in mind that the whole idea behind the PQ *is* to have all of those choices and the ability to filter. I don't want event caches, multicaches and puzzle caches to show on my device when I am on the road. A quick check box kills them all and I get a bigger radius of caches I do want. I also kill high difficulty caches. I don't want to arrive somewhere and find out that I need ropes to get to the cache. Two minutes in the hotel room or my house may save me a 15 to 30 in the field. By filtering properly, I get what I want.

 

My procedure for the Oregon is like this.

 

1) Set up PQ, using a nearby cache GC number only for centering.

2) Wait for it to be emailed to me, and I do not have the file zipped.

3) Connect device to PC using USB cable/bluetooth.

4) Open the email, drag the attached file directly to the device folder window (you don't have to save it anywhere).

5) You're done, head out the door!

 

What you describe here is what the iPhone does if you are in a coverage area.

Caching on the fly using a dedicated mobile phone app querying the live DB:

1) Fire up caching app on mass market hardware

2) Watch caches appear on screen.

[team tisri]

I suggested the use case of logging on the fly in particular because if I'm doing many caches in a row before I have access to a PC again, sometimes I might forget one or two. I think one of the official apps has a feature where a log can be stubbed from your phone, and then completed when you return to your PC.

 

I log on the fly from both Beeline and Memory Map, which are PQ-powered and therefore not breaking any rules - a click in the right place on my phone's screen opens up the website, and I type my logs in there. Since owning my current phone (HTC TyTN II) I log probably about 90% of my finds as soon as I've found them.

 

Easy, really, and it doesn't need any apps that aren't out there already (and are legal!)

 

Yeah maybe... I just can't stand pocket queries! They're really cumbersome, out of date quickly, hardly anything can render the text inside them nicely, and you have to load them before you go (limiting you in terms of spontaneous caching somewhere new).

 

The only redeeming feature of a PQ-powered app on a phone IMO is that it will still work if you go caching somewhere without any mobile reception.

 

Out of date quickly? When you can have a PQ emailed to you every single day how much more up to date do you want it?

 

It's not like caches are disabled the very moment they get muggled, it can (and often is) several days between a DNF and the cache owner getting out to confirm if it's still there.

 

It's also not rocket science to process the GPX file into something more useful. There are several applications out there to read them, or you can do what I did and write a completely new app if you find yourself wanting functionality that you couldn't find elsewhere.

 

If you find yourself spontaneously caching somewhere new, presumably you made a conscious decision to go there in the first place so what's the big deal about creating a new PQ to tell you what's around there? If it's a short distance from home a few well-designed PQs will have the area covered. If you decide on the spur of the moment "I know, I'll drive 100 miles from home and do some caching" wouldn't you want to check what sort of caches were available first? Failing all those aspects, the WAP site will tell you something of what's around, if you don't want to use the full web site on a cellphone (personally I hate trying to read web sites on a small screen)

 

I'm not saying gc.com is perfect, but I can't help thinking that any alternative site that started up would either not be popular enough to gain any traction, or would itself start running into bandwidth and server load issues, and end up having to restrict direct access to its databases anyway.

[+keehotee]

 

Caching on the fly using a dedicated mobile phone app querying the live DB:

1) Fire up caching app on mass market hardware

2) Watch caches appear on screen.

 

 

Errr - unless I'm missing something fundamental here - I can already do this on my primitive, basic, web enabled phone......just by going to the Groundspeak mobi web site....

 

I don't see the difference between what you're proposing via an open caching database with your front end, and the already freely available Groundspeak web front end???

Edited June 17, 2009 by keehotee

[+mtn-man]

What you describe here is what the iPhone does if you are in a coverage area.

Caching on the fly using a dedicated mobile phone app querying the live DB:

1) Fire up caching app on mass market hardware

2) Watch caches appear on screen.

I forgot to add, now the iPhone app can download a pocket query that you already have built. You can even cache out of the coverage area with that ability.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I should wait and reply later I guess... please understand it has been difficult in this thread not to get irritated and to feel like people are being deliberately obstructive.

With respect, your irritation has been well and truly on show here!

But the point is, it's human nature to be sceptical when someone presents an idea which seems to require quite a bit of explaining. If you want to make a success of this you'll have to accept that it's going to need selling.

 

But we seem to have got the thread back on the rails, however. My personal olde-worlde paperless(-ish) caching system is designed to cope with an average caching day out (most of my cache trips are at least 100 miles from home so it's relevant).

 

I start with the geocaching.com Google Earth Geocaching Network KML (most people can't do that, but you can achieve the same effect using the Google cache map).

Then click on an appropriate cache to act as centre for the PQ. Alternatively, set up a route in Memory Map and upload it for a Caches Along A Route PQ.

 

When the PQ appears, I save the zip file and upload it into GSAK (no need to unzip it first). Then I filter out all the caches which don't suit the trip, based on a variety of criteria. Then use a macro to fire all the remaining cache details and hints into the GPSr, another into the Nuvi (which includes spoiler photos as well), and another to set up a Cachemate database (also with photos) which is copied into the iPAQ.

Depending on the type of trip, I might also print out a GSAK-formatted crib sheet which allows me to see all the planned caches in a logical order on one page (waterproof paper is brilliant for countryside walking; super compact and lightweight, disposable and can be roughly treated and no big deal if lost!).

 

In what way is that cumbersome? Well, a bit, but all that preparation can be done when I've got a few spare moments, isn't particularly unpleasant and makes sure that I don't miss a minute of my valuable caching time! Should I need to access geocaching.com when actually out and about, no problem either, but it's merely a backup. Note that logging caches isn't an issue, that paper can't be beaten for some features, and that a specialised GPSr is likely to be the best caching tool for some time to come.

 

Anyway, as others point out, your ideal cache tool is already provided by Groundspeak.

 

In addition, it is the principle of the data being owned by the people who created it. Has the issue of what would happen to all the cache data if Groundspeak were to go out of business ever been addressed I wonder?

If the data could no longer be protected by Groundspeak copyright, then I'm pretty sure that someone else would step in straight away. It's a valuable resource, as they clearly demonstrate by protecting it from being downloaded and used by other enterprises.

[Chudley Cannons]

It will continue to run as long as no one mentions ******* [name removed to save Greg having to do it]

It will certainly be closed as soons as someone mentions %%%%% %%%%%%%%!!!!!!!!

 

Even I dare not mention %%%%% %%%%%%%%

 

You are braver than me.

[+funkybro]

All of you have demonstrated that PQs in the field means a LOT of (asterisked potty mouth verbiage deleted by moderator) about, basically. Which is fine for all you old hands out there with lots of patience, but I bet a newcomer, given the choice of those two options, would go for something which queries on the fly. Unless, of course, putting off less-savvy newcomers is not something that bothers people?!

 

The WAP site is functional, admittedly; I'd just prefer a caching on-the-fly solution that didn't involve manually entering co-ordinates into your phone, allowed you to view nearby caches on a map and provided a nice compass arrow to guide you there. And was available on ANY handset which was capable of it (to pre-empt mtn-man piping up about the (asterisked potty mouth verbiage deleted by moderator) Iphone again)!!

 

Do I take it from the lack of concrete responses that the issue of what happens to the cache DB if GS folds has NEVER been addressed?

Edited June 18, 2009 by mtn-man

[+Happy Humphrey]

All of you have demonstrated that PQs in the field means a LOT of (asterisked potty mouth verbiage deleted by moderator) about, basically. Which is fine for all you old hands out there with lots of patience, but I bet a newcomer, given the choice of those two options, would go for something which queries on the fly. Unless, of course, putting off less-savvy newcomers is not something that bothers people?!

Not much patience needed, you just develop your own workflow with time. My method suits me but wouldn't suit you, so you'd develop your own. Less techno-savvy people might not get the hang of a phone-based geocaching app (or even have a suitable phone) so they'd perhaps go for a paper-based solution.

The WAP site is functional, admittedly; I'd just prefer a caching on-the-fly solution that didn't involve manually entering co-ordinates into your phone, allowed you to view nearby caches on a map and provided a nice compass arrow to guide you there. And was available on ANY handset which was capable of it (to pre-empt mtn-man piping up about the (asterisked potty mouth verbiage deleted by moderator) Iphone again)!!

I'm told (by Jeremy, who should know as he's in charge!) that Groundspeak are focussed on this sort of thing. If you really want to know about further developments, I suggest posting on the main forum or getting in touch directly. I'm not that bothered, as it wouldn't particularly suit me to just see all nearby caches on a map like that (I tend to filter and select before searching). But remember that Groundspeak is just a very small company with a tiny budget, so it's not all going to happen overnight. Perhaps if you can offer more resources (for free) you could form a partnership with them (Garmin-style) and influence their thinking.

Do I take it from the lack of concrete responses that the issue of what happens to the cache DB if GS folds has NEVER been addressed?

It would be pure speculation, so what's the point? It's likely that someone would take it over, but no-one can have any idea about how that would work. If you look elsewhere in this forum you'll find plenty of talk about it; I seem to recall it being discussed in the past.

Edited June 18, 2009 by mtn-man

[+Haggis Hunter]

All of you have demonstrated that PQs in the field means a LOT of (asterisked potty mouth verbiage deleted by moderator) about, basically. Which is fine for all you old hands out there with lots of patience, but I bet a newcomer, given the choice of those two options, would go for something which queries on the fly. Unless, of course, putting off less-savvy newcomers is not something that bothers people?!

 

The WAP site is functional, admittedly; I'd just prefer a caching on-the-fly solution that didn't involve manually entering co-ordinates into your phone, allowed you to view nearby caches on a map and provided a nice compass arrow to guide you there. And was available on ANY handset which was capable of it (to pre-empt mtn-man piping up about the (asterisked potty mouth verbiage deleted by moderator) Iphone again)!!

 

Do I take it from the lack of concrete responses that the issue of what happens to the cache DB if GS folds has NEVER been addressed?

I think your doing yourself no favours by putting expletives into your argument, even if the words are starred out I still know what you are saying. You are presenting yourself as a future owner of a company that you wish to start. F'ing & swearing to put your point across doesn't fill me with excitement to try your programmes out!

 

If GS folds then we hit a major stumbling block, but I would bet there are plenty of major companies out there, Garmin being one who seeing it's potential may step up to the plate to keep it alive.

Let's face it a company that can still offer a large percentage of it's services for free to a large percentage of it's members, can't be looking at immediate financial problems!

Edited June 18, 2009 by mtn-man

[+Primitive Person]

If GS folds then we hit a major stumbling block, but I would bet there are plenty of major companies out there, Garmin being one who seeing it's potential may step up to the plate to keep it alive.

Let's face it a company that can still offer a large percentage of it's services for free to a large percentage of it's members, can't be looking at immediate financial problems!

 

True. Various other sites I use have recently begun cutting back on services available to free users, and massively increasing the number of ads they're carrying. GC.com shows none of these signs thus far, and membership continues to rise, so I'm guessing it's in good shape. I'm sure there would be plenty of backers ready to step in if trouble arose - Garmin have, of course, recognised the value of geocaching as a way of shifting GPS units to people who would otherwise never have considered buying one.

 

Lee

[+Icenians]

 

I'm not talking about TC. See the part I highlighted in my original post above. TC isn't the topic. An open caching site is. As MissJenn mentions, lets get back to his original discussion.

 

By the way, re-reading that, I see I left the word *not* out after the red highlighted sentence. I just added that back in. I hope that helps my meaning there.

 

My mistake. I thought the original post was about Alternative caching websites! I guess I'm not able to read English!

[+mtn-man]

The WAP site is functional, admittedly; I'd just prefer a caching on-the-fly solution that didn't involve manually entering co-ordinates into your phone, allowed you to view nearby caches on a map and provided a nice compass arrow to guide you there. And was available on ANY handset which was capable of it (to pre-empt mtn-man piping up about the (asterisked potty mouth verbiage deleted by moderator) Iphone again)!!

Sorry for simply pointing out that functionality you keep saying you want is available now. I don't understand why you dislike that device so much, but it is what it is.

 

I think it is important to note that there is no way any program of this type could be available on "ANY handset". There are limitations to what some handsets can do. Some don't have a GPSr. Some don't allow an application to have access to it if there is one. It is great to say you want something, but the reality of whether it can actually be done must be considered.

 

To that end, here is an example of an existing program that is really handset broad based.

 

This link takes you to Groundspeak's landing page for the Trimble Geocache Navigator. On your phone you see full description, past logs, mapping, compass, track breadcrumbs, logging via field notes, etc. It does not allow you to view nearby caches on a map. The Trimble folks have a very nice web site dedicated to the application. You have to pay for the application, or you can get an ad supported free version on three Nokia phones.

 

Now, go to the web page regarding supported phones:

 

http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/supportedphones/

 

Quite a selection of phones there. I've heard that it also works on a Boost Mobile phone with the daily web access active. Boost sells the i335, which works from Sprint/Nextel. It is the same phone on the same basic network, so it would be plausible that it would work. Obviously, as demonstrated with the Trimble application, part of the problem with it working on "ANY handset" is the limitations set by the wireless carrier and the individual handset device. Verizon has been known for being unfriendly regarding access to apps and GPSr's on their phones. I hope they continue to rethink that.

 

 

I do have a couple of questions funkybro.

 

1) Have you given any consideration to the problems with different mobile phones and different worldwide carrier policies as I have pointed out above?

 

2) I am also curious about a related issue to the question you have regarding Groundspeak going out of business. They have a business model to generate revenue, which helps them stay in business. If they get too tight, they could raise Premium Member fees and sell other services (bulk pocket query downloads, etc.). In your original post you say:

The reason I ask is that I am investigating the possibility of creating an "open" or "free" equivalent of Geocaching.com -- one without advertising, without extra paid-for benefits, and a completely open developer's API. This would allow anybody to create their own free (or paid-for if they want) Geocaching apps. These apps would be able to make full use of live data (i.e. it would be far more robust and seamless than using pocket queries), and could run on mobile devices, desktop, or even interface to sites like Flickr and Twitter.

What is your business model to pay for bandwidth, web space hosting and email, and the manpower to create and administrate this totally free site?

[+funkybro]

Hi mtn-man, thanks for your continued feedback...

 

 

I do have a couple of questions funkybro.

 

1) Have you given any consideration to the problems with different mobile phones and different worldwide carrier policies as I have pointed out above?

 

I write mobile phone software for a living! Trust me, I am very well versed with the intricacies of creating robust software that works across handsets and carriers.

 

2) I am also curious about a related issue to the question you have regarding Groundspeak going out of business. They have a business model to generate revenue, which helps them stay in business. If they get too tight, they could raise Premium Member fees and sell other services (bulk pocket query downloads, etc.). In your original post you say:

The reason I ask is that I am investigating the possibility of creating an "open" or "free" equivalent of Geocaching.com -- one without advertising, without extra paid-for benefits, and a completely open developer's API. This would allow anybody to create their own free (or paid-for if they want) Geocaching apps. These apps would be able to make full use of live data (i.e. it would be far more robust and seamless than using pocket queries), and could run on mobile devices, desktop, or even interface to sites like Flickr and Twitter.

What is your business model to pay for bandwidth, web space hosting and email, and the manpower to create and administrate this totally free site?

As I have said, in the first instance I'd probably run it on something similar to Google App engine, they offer a scalable and initially free platform for applications just like this.

 

As regards manpower, well, Geocaching has a huge amount of voluntary manpower behind it already, as you well know. There are many examples of successful open source software projects on the Internet already... contributed to by motivated volunteers. I already have some talented, interested contributers for this project. I see no reason why the voluntary manpower can't (at the beginning at least) drive the back end of it, as well as the front end as it already does for Geocaching.com.

 

If only the data were already freely available then perhaps such measures might not be necessary. The fact that people are out there creating and using applications which are currently technically disallowed, demonstrates the interest and the appetite for these applications.

[+mtn-man]

As I have said, in the first instance I'd probably run it on something similar to Google App engine, they offer a scalable and initially free platform for applications just like this.

They offer roughly 5 million page views per month per free. If you have say a small number like 25,000 people looking at your site, they could only look at 200 page views each before you go over your free quota. Let's discount all of the cool "maps-on-the-fly" features and all of that for a second. For one cache, I look initially at a map page and select a cache. At the cache page I get the description. While at the cache location, I decide to look at the hint. Still not finding the cache, I look at the last logs back on the cache page. I find the cache, and while at the location click on the link on that main cache page to log the cache. I go to the logging page and type out my log. I then click to enter my log and I am automatically sent back to the main cache page to see that my find was recorded. That is six page views for one cache. That gives an average of about 32 caches per user based on 25,000 users on the site. Honestly, I can do that many caches in an afternoon.

 

After your free site goes over it's quota of free views, does the site simply shut down for the rest of the month?

 

Edited to add that I am not trying to beat you up here, but in life there really is no "free lunch". Part of having a business model is the what-if factor. I cannot imagine the page views this site gets. Billions?

Edited June 18, 2009 by mtn-man

[+momagic48]

Perhaps I'm missing the point here, but geocaching.com is doing a great job. If we had loads of smaller dedicated sites, surely we would lose sight of the aim of the game. I'm sticking with this site.

 

Now if anyone understood wat I just said - please explain it to ME!

 

Mo

Edited June 22, 2009 by momagic48

[+Primitive Person]

Perhaps I'm missing the point here, but geocaching.com is doing a great job. If we had loads of smaller dedicated sites, surely we would lose sight of the aim of the game. I'm sticking with this site.

 

Now if anyone understood wat I just said - please explain it to ME!

 

Mo

 

I get you.

 

I tried out Navicache recently, and it's a ghastly site compared to this one, with far fewer features, a horrible user interface, and most importantly - hardly any caches at all.

 

Lee

[+momagic48]

The main problem that I can see is that if we are all playing 'the game' by different rules - how can the game evolve or even exist. Different sites will mean different ideas/methods/ideals. Does this mean that we'd all have to pay subscription to each and every site? I've looked at other sites and come to the conclusion 'better tis the devil you know' - i'm sticking with what I started with.

[+momagic48]

For the most of us 'casual' cachers, geocaching.com does an execellant job, obviously there will be someone out there with a problem or gripe that can't be ignored.

Edited June 24, 2009 by momagic48

[toczygroszek]

The countries I know of where the non-Groundspeak site has a larger number of caches are Hungary, Russia, and Poland (opencaching.pl). In each case I think that language issues, plus the relatively low tendency of residents of those countries to travel abroad (so they won't miss the international aspects of the game) have probably contributed to the appeal of the "national" listing site.

 

I think there are 3 different countries and 3 different reasons. Local geocaching in Hungary has long and good tradition, and this is probably main reason. But Hungarian publish their caches on Geocaching.com and it growing up there. Russia - main reasons are impossible use Cyrillic characters and second just money - 30$ is big money in Russia. And Poland... It's just strange country. I know something about it because I'm from Poland. And it is not only problem with language and travelling, I think this is just ideological like 99% things in this country...

[+Icenians]

The main problem that I can see is that if we are all playing 'the game' by different rules - how can the game evolve or even exist. Different sites will mean different ideas/methods/ideals. Does this mean that we'd all have to pay subscription to each and every site? I've looked at other sites and come to the conclusion 'better tis the devil you know' - i'm sticking with what I started with.

 

Surely 'the game' is finding caches. It's fundamentally the same on any of the sites.

 

You don't have to pay a subscription on any site as far as I'm aware.

[toczygroszek]

Surely 'the game' is finding caches. It's fundamentally the same on any of the sites.

 

"The game" is find a cache using navigation. I can show you "caches", where navigation is completely useless (e.g. cache is in owner backpack and you have to contact him and arrange meeting, or container is hidden in train, so you have to know what is number of this train), or virtuals, where goal is just find answer and people finding it in Google and not leaving home posting "find". There is many different rules like digging allowed, password needed to log, moving caches, no proximity alerts and many, many others. TB are missing, because someone moved it to cache registered in other database, or people coming for FTF and finding in cache 10 previous logs because it was published one month ago in other database etc. It's same useful like left side traffic, sterling currency or strange 3-pins power plug in GB for people from other part of EU. Don't take it personally, it's just more complicated for users, and if something is complicated you are loosing your time, and time is money. For the same reason people mostly prefer pay for petrol to your car and don't use bicycle what is free. And for the same reason I'm talking to you English not Polish (even my English is poor, but still easier for other users than translate my Polish).

 

Is not that easy as you think.

[+Icenians]

Surely 'the game' is finding caches. It's fundamentally the same on any of the sites.

 

"The game" is find a cache using navigation. I can show you "caches", where navigation is completely useless (e.g. cache is in owner backpack and you have to contact him and arrange meeting, or container is hidden in train, so you have to know what is number of this train), or virtuals, where goal is just find answer and people finding it in Google and not leaving home posting "find". There is many different rules like digging allowed, password needed to log, moving caches, no proximity alerts and many, many others. TB are missing, because someone moved it to cache registered in other database, or people coming for FTF and finding in cache 10 previous logs because it was published one month ago in other database etc. It's same useful like left side traffic, sterling currency or strange 3-pins power plug in GB for people from other part of EU. Don't take it personally, it's just more complicated for users, and if something is complicated you are loosing your time, and time is money. For the same reason people mostly prefer pay for petrol to your car and don't use bicycle what is free. And for the same reason I'm talking to you English not Polish (even my English is poor, but still easier for other users than translate my Polish).

 

Is not that easy as you think.

 

I fail to see what any of the above has to do with alternative listing sites. I cache on 2 activly and have cached on a 3rd in the past. I've found virtuals on all 3, I've never found a cache I've had to dig for (but have heard of them in other countries on GC).

 

There is no rule to say you must use a password to log a cache although there is the facility. Of course, having found the cache that really isn't much of an arguement for not caching there. I have used navigation on all the caches I've done, including the virtuals on all 3 sites.

 

When I go out to cache, I go to an area, find some caches, come back home and log them. The game to me is finding the cache. It isn't about who has the prettiest site, the tightest set of rules, or even the best caches. The whole point of caching is to go out and find something.

 

The only arguement I can think of for walking past a good cache that you would like, regardless of the listing site, is because the numbers don't all join up somewhere. Personally, I couldn't give a monkeys about the numbers, especially as they mean nothing on GC. I find the arguement that having two or more cache counts to be the kind of arguement that I expect from a 10 year old.

 

As for replying in English, I applaud your English, it's certainly far better than my non existant Polish, but I think it only right that you should attempt to post in English on a UK Forum. Just as I would make an attempt to post in Polish on a Polish forum.

[+Icenians]

Make that using 3 as we now have another site in the UK from today.

[toczygroszek]

I'm talking you about experience from Poland, and that's thr truth. You can "find" there hundreds of caches without leaving your home. Dont forget shovel and spojler photo (caches with category "GPS-free") and don't forget write password from cache to log your visit.

 

After 3 years of existence opencaching in Poland only 15 visitors from other countries found caches in this local database (mostly Czech an German). Local database is only for local people.

 

You don't believe me - OK, this is British problem now, not mine...

[+Icenians]

I'm talking you about experience from Poland, and that's thr truth. You can "find" there hundreds of caches without leaving your home. Dont forget shovel and spojler photo (caches with category "GPS-free") and don't forget write password from cache to log your visit.

 

After 3 years of existence opencaching in Poland only 15 visitors from other countries found caches in this local database (mostly Czech an German). Local database is only for local people.

 

You don't believe me - OK, this is British problem now, not mine...

 

Given that opencaching has existed for 1 day in the uk it's probably a bit too early to tell. The site does however state that cache placement will be on gagb guidelines so I don't see it having so many issues.

 

For me, I happen to think a logging password is a good thing sometimes. We use it over a tc where it doesn't seem to cause any problems.

 

Virtuals were popular on GC before they were banned and perhaps have a greater role to play these days in the likes of central London.

 

Personally, I prefer a world with competition and choice as it makes all participants work harder to keep their customers. I see no reason not to help them along their way.

[+figures]

I'm a big fan of open systems and can understand why people might get fed up with certain rules and directions by the main company and form their own deviations.

 

BUT

 

I've tried Terra and Navicaching and they've left me wanting. As way of one example, whilst I've done some brilliant (and sneakily hidden) armchair and locationless caches through GC.com having seen some caches on other sites, for me personally, I can understand why GS decided to get rid of them.

 

The problem with alternative sites (and I speak as someone who used to own a very successful non-caching related website that ate my life) is that

A) People don't build their revenue model so that they are prepared for when their sites get that popular that they see an enormous jump in running costs

People underestimate the amount of maintenance a successful website takes

C) People forget that eventually something will happen which will put the site owners in the position of having to make a decision or a rule... which will prove unpopular with some ... who will then go off and form their own site.

 

However, each to their own. Friends of mine prefer Terracaching, I say I'll happily stick with Geocaching until I've got them all done.