USFWS Asking for Voluntary Moratorium on ALL Visits to Caves

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

[First, I am writing this note in mid-afternoon while eating a large bowl of homemade spaghetti, hot Italian sausage and tomato sauce, so please forgive any tomato sauce stains on the post below.]

 

Preface

As you may be aware, I have been a long-time caver, and I have belonged to the National Speloeolgical Society (NSS) since about 1975. I also own one cache which has a stage located in a cave affected by the notice below.

 

Introduction

The following is an important heads-up for any cachers who own or visit geocaches located in caves or abandoned mines on or near the east coast of the USA. On March 26, 2009, the US Fish & Wildlife Service issued a nationwide advisory asking for a voluntary moratorium on all visits by humans to caves and abandoned mines in 17 states on and near the east coast of the USA, including all of New England and NY, NJ, PA, DE, (DC), MD, WVA, VA, KY, OH, NC and surrounding states as part of an effort to prevent the spread of the rather newly-emergent disease known as White Nose Syndrome (WNS) in bats.

 

This request by USFWS for a voluntary moratorium to visits to caves and abandoned mines affects all geocaches located in caves or abandoned mines in those states. The full text of the USWFS advisory may be found at http://www.fws.gov/northeast/wnscaveadvisory.html and a Q&A FAQ note from USWFS about the advisory may be found at http://www.fws.gov/northeast/wnscaveadvisoryfaq.html

 

In light of the above facts, I have decided to temporarily disable my Psycho Urban Cache #14 – Cliffside Catacombs and here is the accompanying log note that I posted as part of the "cache disabled" notice:

 

Folks, in light of the advisory notice from the US Fish & Wildlife Service asking for a voluntary moratorium on all visits by humans to caves and abandoned mines in the Northeast and in Pa, DE, MD, WV and VA (and adjacent states), I am temporarily disabling this cache, as one stage is located in a cave large enough for humans to enter.

 

As you likely know from having read the earlier and very informative log note posted recently to this cache listing page about WNS and the moratorium by Indy-MD, this voluntary moratorium has been requested by USFWS as a possible prophylactic measure to help prevent the spread of White Nose Syndrome (WNS) in bats, because some wildlife biologists believe that humans who visit caves and abandoned mines may be acting as a vector to spread the disease, which has, in the past couple of years, killed hundreds of thousands of bats in the northeastern part of the USA.

 

I am disabling this cache only rather reluctantly, and for a limited time, and my reluctance stems from the following factors:

 

1) The only stage of this cache which involves a cave large enough for a human to enter, and which may also potentially serve as a bat hibernacula is a rather small cave which is under 200 feet in depth. This cave has been widely known to locals in and near Shepherdstown, WV for over a hundred years, and is regularly visited by locals (particularly teenagers and young adults) for entertainment purposes as a "partying spot". In fact, some local cachers who had found this cache held a CITO (trash removal) event at this cave two years ago and removed a large quantity of broken beer bottles and empty beer cans, cigarette butts and other waste that had accumulated in the cave over many years. So, despite the voluntary moratorium requested by USFWS, the local "partiers" will continue to visit this cave at night.

 

2) Only one bat has ever been seen in this rather small cave, and it was sighted only once (that is, during only one visit) in all of the visits to the cave by myself and other cavers.

 

3) There is considerable disagreement in the fields of wildlife biology and wildlife veterinary medicine over the cause of WNS and over its mode of transmission, and, at this time, only a minority of experts in the field believe that humans, via visits to caves and abandoned mines, may act as a transmission vector for the causative microorganism.

 

4) This cache is a limited-access extreme cache, and thus it receives visits by geocachers only two to three times per year nowadays.

 

USFWS has not announced a date for the end of the voluntary moratorium (although, for some reason, many VA newspapers are claiming that it will end on April 15, 2009), but rather, has stated that they will review the advisory on a quarterly basis.

 

Thanks for your patience!

 

--Vinny

 

And, here, for further information on the whole matter, is a log note recently posted by Indy-MD, a local cacher who, like myself, has been a long-term caver for many years, about WNS and the request by USFWS for a voluntary moratorium:

 

Location: West Virginia, United States Indy-Md posted a note for Psycho Urban Cache #14 - Cliffside Catacombs (Multi-cache) at 3/28/2009 Log Date: 3/28/2009

 

Folks,

 

Over the past few years there has been a virulent disease virtually wiping out bat populations in the New England area, and this past winter it has now been found as far south as southern Virginia, with suspected cases in several caves in WV. The disease is known as White Nose Syndrome (WNS), and the mortality rate on the bats is upwards of 90%. This past week the US Fish & Wildlife Service issued an advisory asking for a moratorium on ALL caving in any state with WNS or any adjoining state. As stage one for this cache involves a cave in one of these candidate states, I thought it prudent to post this information (Vinny, if you would pass this on to other cavers you know, please do so; I have already sent it out to those people I cave with who were not privy to the original email about this).

 

A press release about the advisory is at

http://www.fws.gov/news/newsrelease/showNe...C1BACA5444BC9DA

 

The actual advisory is at

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/wnscaveadvisory.html

 

A Question and Answer page is at

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/wnscaveadvisoryfaq.html

 

A few points of note:

 

1. The advisory includes ALL caves, not just ones with bats.

 

2. The advisory includes (among the 17 affected states) Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky, Tennessee,

North Carolina, and Ohio because these state adjoin states with known WNS sites.

 

3. There is no time limit on the requested moratorium, but it will be

reviewed quarterly.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

Indy-MD

 

P.S. I had originally considered posting this thread to one of the regional sections on the Groundspeak forum, but, upon review, I realized that due to the large area affected, I would need to post the same thread to at least three regional sections of the forum, and hence I decided to post it here, to the Geocaching Topics section.

 

.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+Star*Hopper]

As weird as this thread's topic might seem, I ...

1- ...am somewhat surpised to see it show up here;

2- ...even weirder, happened to know about it already!

But

3- ...didn't bat an eye when I saw who posted it.

 

Vin, I caught a segment with some cavers in NC who, under auspices of (or in association with) UNC & the state wildlife service, were in-cave checking bats for this disease. Apparently the only way they can tell is to pluck bats off the walls & examine 'em visually. They didn't see any (in the film clip) & just put 'em back when done, so I don't know what they'd do if they did spot infection....maybe remove it?

 

Thought it kinda odd (especially in light of the nature of the moratorium) that the thing they ask us potential 'carriers' not to do, they're right in there, doing it!

 

But, on behalf of me & mine, re compliance, NO problem....no problem a'tall!

Wonder if they're gonna be shuttin' down the Tourist Caves?

~*

[+Harry Dolphin]

(Working from memory here...) New York State has closed all caves on state property due to White Nose Syndrome. Not sure if this affects commercial caves.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

As weird as this thread's topic might seem, I ...

1- ...am somewhat surpised to see it show up here;

2- ...even weirder, happened to know about it already!

But

3- ...didn't bat an eye when I saw who posted it.

 

Vin, I caught a segment with some cavers in NC who, under auspices of (or in association with) UNC & the state wildlife service, were in-cave checking bats for this disease. Apparently the only way they can tell is to pluck bats off the walls & examine 'em visually. They didn't see any (in the film clip) & just put 'em back when done, so I don't know what they'd do if they did spot infection....maybe remove it?

 

Thought it kinda odd (especially in light of the nature of the moratorium) that the thing they ask us potential 'carriers' not to do, they're right in there, doing it!

 

But, on behalf of me & mine, re compliance, NO problem....no problem a'tall!

Wonder if they're gonna be shuttin' down the Tourist Caves?

~*

Thanks for your observations, and, to answer your question, regarding the status of commercial caves, aka "tourist caves", USFWS has announced (it is in their FAQ document, I believe) that ALL commercial caves are exempt from the notice, as are certain caves of "scientific interest", including a number of caves which harbor WNS-infected bats and which are being studied by scientists. These exceptions have caused a bit of a stir in some cave-related circles, for commercial caves tend to be among the larger caves found in any area, and to be significant hibernaria (aka hibernacula) for bats, and they also tend to attract LARGE numbers of human visitors on a daily basis, and thus their potential impact on the local bat community is IMMENSE compared to that of small "wild" caves which may be visited by cavers or cachers only rarely, perhaps a few times per year. So, in some ways, the whole effort is kinda skewed, and perhaps somewhat crazy, in part due to some factors upon which I touched in my cache disable notice that I reproduced in my first post in this thread.

[7rxc]

Thanks for your observations, and, to answer your question, regarding the status of commercial caves, aka "tourist caves", USFWS has announced (it is in their FAQ document, I believe) that ALL commercial caves are exempt from the notice, as are certain caves of "scientific interest", including a number of caves which harbor WNS-infected bats and which are being studied by scientists. These exceptions have caused a bit of a stir in some cave-related circles, for commercial caves tend to be among the larger caves found in any area, and to be significant hibernaria (aka hibernacula) for bats, and they also tend to attract LARGE numbers of human visitors on a daily basis, and thus their potential impact on the local bat community is IMMENSE compared to that of small "wild" caves which may be visited by cavers or cachers only rarely, perhaps a few times per year. So, in some ways, the whole effort is kinda skewed, and perhaps somewhat crazy, in part due to some factors upon which I touched in my cache disable notice that I reproduced in my first post in this thread.

 

It's been a few years since I was an active caver... mostly in WVa... This will effect my old caving buddies a lot, since we mostly had Canadian Long weekends due to the distances involved... Easter being the early trip. I had not heard about WNS before your note... thanks for that much... As for the non-closure of commercial venues... I think that one difference between wild and commercial caves is the nature of the interface between vistors and the cave / bats... In commercial caves, there are trails, stairways etc... and in many caves there are options for avoiding bat areas... Mammoth has many optional tourist routes that can be used for example. Wild caves as you know tend to be very in your face about dirt, dust, guano and insect and animal contact or close encounter... I suspect that the difference is what allows the commercials to stay open but under scrutiny... you don't see many dirty tourists (perhaps where there is a wild tour option).

 

For my part all I can do is go and read the literature and be glad I'm out West... in Canada / BC.

I laughed at the party site... reminds me a bit of Sinnett Cave in WVa... one trip we managed to assist some partiers headed to the big room... and in doing so managed to relieve them of a 12 pack for our efforts. Don't think they missed it..

 

Doug

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Bump.

 

Bumping thread because this is an issue that potentially affects every geocache located in a cave or abandoned mine located in any of 17 states on and near the East Coast of the USA.

[+dacjohns]

As weird as this thread's topic might seem, I ...

1- ...am somewhat surpised to see it show up here;

2- ...even weirder, happened to know about it already!

But

3- ...didn't bat an eye when I saw who posted it.

 

Vin, I caught a segment with some cavers in NC who, under auspices of (or in association with) UNC & the state wildlife service, were in-cave checking bats for this disease. Apparently the only way they can tell is to pluck bats off the walls & examine 'em visually. They didn't see any (in the film clip) & just put 'em back when done, so I don't know what they'd do if they did spot infection....maybe remove it?

 

Thought it kinda odd (especially in light of the nature of the moratorium) that the thing they ask us potential 'carriers' not to do, they're right in there, doing it!

 

But, on behalf of me & mine, re compliance, NO problem....no problem a'tall!

Wonder if they're gonna be shuttin' down the Tourist Caves?

~*

 

Hopefully they are disinfecting their hands when leaving the cave.

 

When I was doing frog surveys we had to disinfect because of the possibility of spreading chytrid fungus even though cattle and wildlife could spread it from one water body to another.

[+Singletree Expedition]

As an active caver in two of these states (TN & VA), I have also been following the news and appreciate the post here. While observing cave closures is most important, it is worth familiarizing yourself with the containment and decontamination procedures established by FWS.

 

Recommended procedures to prevent the possible spread of white-nose syndrome

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenosemess...tml#containment

 

Draft protocols to reduce transmission of WNS in Virginia by humans

http://www.caves.org/WNS/WNS-VA.pdf

 

And after seeing a startling post on a caving forum, it is also advisable to resist the temptation of driving long distances to cave out of your normal area. For obvious reasons, this could potentially be worse than limiting your caving activity to a single county in the impacted area.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

As weird as this thread's topic might seem, I ...

1- ...am somewhat surpised to see it show up here;

2- ...even weirder, happened to know about it already!

But

3- ...didn't bat an eye when I saw who posted it.

 

Vin, I caught a segment with some cavers in NC who, under auspices of (or in association with) UNC & the state wildlife service, were in-cave checking bats for this disease. Apparently the only way they can tell is to pluck bats off the walls & examine 'em visually. They didn't see any (in the film clip) & just put 'em back when done, so I don't know what they'd do if they did spot infection....maybe remove it?

 

Thought it kinda odd (especially in light of the nature of the moratorium) that the thing they ask us potential 'carriers' not to do, they're right in there, doing it!

 

But, on behalf of me & mine, re compliance, NO problem....no problem a'tall!

Wonder if they're gonna be shuttin' down the Tourist Caves?

~*

 

Hopefully they are disinfecting their hands when leaving the cave.

 

When I was doing frog surveys we had to disinfect because of the possibility of spreading chytrid fungus even though cattle and wildlife could spread it from one water body to another.

[significant text above rendered in bold.]

 

Well, one thing that everyone in the field is agreed upon -- if it is indeed true that the organism is infectious and that one way it is spread is by visitors to caves -- is that it is nowhere near as simple as disinfecting hands, and rather, the organism would be present on shoes, clothing and gear (including ropes, carabiners, stuff bags, etc.), and thus washing hands would accomplish nothing at all in terms of prophylaxis.

[+mndvs737]

OK -- I have been looking at this thread for the past couple of days and was about to give Vinny credit for one bang-up 4-1 prank. You see, I was reading it as "White NOISE Syndrome", not "White NOSE Syndrome".

 

I realize now that this is not an occult hand reaching down from above mess with us and reveal itself to us on this day of merriment and prankstering, but rather a very serious topic. We visited a cave in North Alabama that serves as a roosting spot for bats for an Earthcache in February. There is an overlook platform, but the cave entrance is quite a bit distant and the cave opening is gated shut. We hope to go back when the cave is populated to see a fly-out. Hopefully this can be figured out and effective measures taken to counter the threat.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

OK -- I have been looking at this thread for the past couple of days and was about to give Vinny credit for one bang-up 4-1 prank. You see, I was reading it as "White NOISE Syndrome", not "White NOSE Syndrome".

 

I realize now that this is not an occult hand reaching down from above mess with us and reveal itself to us on this day of merriment and prankstering, but rather a very serious topic. We visited a cave in North Alabama that serves as a roosting spot for bats for an Earthcache in February. There is an overlook platform, but the cave entrance is quite a bit distant and the cave opening is gated shut. We hope to go back when the cave is populated to see a fly-out. Hopefully this can be figured out and effective measures taken to counter the threat.

Interestingly, the WEIRD thing about White Nose Syndrome (WNS) in bats is that, although it has been known for a bit over three years, no one has yet been able to determine whether it is indeed caused by a microorganism, nor, if is caused by a microbe, whether that organism is infectious, nor what that microbe may be. The initial theories all seemed to assume that it was some kind of bacteria, and then theorists quickly switched the focus to a fungus (and many websites about WNS still tend to assume that it is caused by a fungus), but lately, more and more experts seem to be privately leaning toward the hypothesis that the cause may be viral, perhaps a virus which is carried by birds, but the reality is that no one knows for sure. There is also an alternative hypothesis which posits that the primary or true causative agent may not be a microbe at all, but rather some kind of ubiquitous environmental toxin to which bats are uniquely sensitive.

 

What we do know is that whatever the process and cause is, it it not as simple as simply some white fuzzy patches on the nose, and rather, "infected" bats show wasting of tissues throughout the entire body, along with severe loss of muscle and fat tissue.

 

(gosh... ...it is almost as if the poor bats had been forced to spend time around Sioneva...)

 

.

 

.

[+mndvs737]

Hmmm -- a lot of your post, Vinny, sounds very similar to a lot of what I hear about Colony Collapse Disorder with bees -- not sure if bacterial, viral, or a parasite, not sure of transmission means, etc.

 

This world, she is a changing, and we're all along for the ride.

[+Sioneva]

<snip>

 

What we do know is that whatever the process and cause is, it it not as simple as simply some white fuzzy patches on the nose, and rather, "infected" bats show wasting of tissues throughout the entire body, along with severe loss of muscle and fat tissue.

 

(gosh... ...it is almost as if the poor bats had been forced to spend time around Sioneva...)

 

.

 

.

 

HEY! That was uncalled for. *sniff*

 

I've been very good lately, why do you continue to persecute me? It's not like your nose is turning white.

[+Ambrosia]

Thanks for your observations, and, to answer your question, regarding the status of commercial caves, aka "tourist caves", USFWS has announced (it is in their FAQ document, I believe) that ALL commercial caves are exempt from the notice...

 

They don't want to lose the money that these caves bring in, they're a big draw.

[+Snoogans]

As weird as this thread's topic might seem, I ...

1- ...am somewhat surpised to see it show up here;

2- ...even weirder, happened to know about it already!

But

3- ...didn't bat an eye when I saw who posted it.

 

Vin, I caught a segment with some cavers in NC who, under auspices of (or in association with) UNC & the state wildlife service, were in-cave checking bats for this disease. Apparently the only way they can tell is to pluck bats off the walls & examine 'em visually. They didn't see any (in the film clip) & just put 'em back when done, so I don't know what they'd do if they did spot infection....maybe remove it?

 

Thought it kinda odd (especially in light of the nature of the moratorium) that the thing they ask us potential 'carriers' not to do, they're right in there, doing it!

 

But, on behalf of me & mine, re compliance, NO problem....no problem a'tall!

Wonder if they're gonna be shuttin' down the Tourist Caves?

~*

 

Smoke and mirrors. We're at WAR with the mole people again!

 

[+JakeInPA]

This stinks. I've never done much caving, but now that I'm into geocaching, I have a strong interest in looking for some of the nearby caches that are in caves...bah!

[+Castle Mischief]

We visited a cave in North Alabama that serves as a roosting spot for bats for an Earthcache in February. There is an overlook platform, but the cave entrance is quite a bit distant and the cave opening is gated shut. We hope to go back when the cave is populated to see a fly-out. Hopefully this can be figured out and effective measures taken to counter the threat.

 

I hope that you have the chance to return to this (Sauta/Blowing Winds) cave and see the bats as they come out to feed. It's truly an amazing sight, watching them take over the patches of sky between the tree cover. I've witnessed the event twice (second time I logged the earthcache) and I'll never forget it.

 

Vinny, this problem makes me physically ill. Is there anything that the average Joe can do that will make a difference, anything we could do to help further the research that's being done? I'm sure I could google for research foundation, but I ask you because you seem to have a better perspective on the real work that's being done, or at least have absorbed more information first or second hand.

[7rxc]

I hope that you have the chance to return to this (Sauta/Blowing Winds) cave and see the bats as they come out to feed. It's truly an amazing sight, watching them take over the patches of sky between the tree cover. I've witnessed the event twice (second time I logged the earthcache) and I'll never forget it.

 

Vinny, this problem makes me physically ill. Is there anything that the average Joe can do that will make a difference, anything we could do to help further the research that's being done? I'm sure I could google for research foundation, but I ask you because you seem to have a better perspective on the real work that's being done, or at least have absorbed more information first or second hand.

 

Assuming you have read the links, try reading the links again carefully... Several things jumped out at me, but I don't have time right now to cite properly... will do that later...

 

One was the comment that WNS effects ANIMALS... another was the actual means of death of the bats...

 

They basically starve to death... What does this mean... Cavers know that bats hibernate in winter months..

the do not eat... there is usually little food available to hunt... ANY disturbance of the hibernation can directly lead to the bat not making it through to Spring... more than once and it's almost a sure thing in northern states / provinces. Hibernation also means that they can't move away from a local threat... in this case 'whatever' it is... the spread could be simply a result of migration to safer areas... who knows.

 

Going back to the animals thing... is it important... yep... WE are animals too, and our pets... Not being paranoid, but anything that effects animals COULD do the same to us...

 

As to the common Joe... smaller colonies of hibernating bats exist in many areas OTHER than caves... again read the links... not so much in newer buildings and homes, but many older structures can have colonies into the hundreds or more... This also is particularly true in warmer months as nurseries... Keep an educated watch on your local surroundings... remember that bats are good things... but they are quite fragile and sensitive to diseases / infections... don't mess with ones you see up close... the healthy ones you normallly only get distant or fleeting glimpses of... again read...

 

Someone mentioned bees and colony collapse disorder... One thing I noted and will be looking at is

Chronic Wasting Disease in deer etc... These bat areas seem to be in DEER (etc.) areas... as well... come to think the bee thing fits there too.

 

Just some things to ponder... it may be that we all have to be more oriented to sanitizing our gear whenever we do anything outdoors... look at zebra mussels, certain aquatic weeds etc. that are currently infesting waterways and marsh areas they shouldn't be in...

 

Doug

[+Castle Mischief]

 

Assuming you have read the links, try reading the links again carefully...

 

again read the links...

 

again read...

 

I read the links. From them I gleaned the prevailing logic was to stay out of the caves. Seems there are a heaping bunch of unknowns in the mix and nobody really knows how the illness is being spread and doubt has been placed on the effectiveness of "wiping down" before entering or leaving a cave.

 

So let me re-phrase the question. What can somebody that doesn't enter caves regularly or plan on entering caves in the future (Joe Average) do to help?

 

Also... ellipses... best... used... sparingly...

[+Renegade Knight]

... and they also tend to attract LARGE numbers of human visitors on a daily basis, and thus their potential impact on the local bat community is IMMENSE compared to that of small "wild" caves which may be visited by cavers or cachers only rarely, perhaps a few times per year....

 

Having read how they suspect human transmission works, Cavers (of whatever ilk) fit the bill the best. Joe Public would likely visit caves (commrecial or otherwise) so rarely that the standard laundering of clothes and time between visits would likely kill any fungus that was biding it's time. It's not the rare visits to one cave, it's the visiting one cave and then another while the fungus is viable.

 

Of course that's my speculation on the speculation of those who at least were kind enough to venture their best judgment on how the human to cave transmission may be taking place.

 

Ignoring the debate I have to give Kudo's to the USFWS for telling the entire story and not just treating us like the fungus that has them worried.

[+Renegade Knight]

...So let me re-phrase the question. What can somebody that doesn't enter caves regularly or plan on entering caves in the future (Joe Average) do to help? ...

 

The one part that's not speculation is the jumps that tell them something other than bats are spreading the fungus. A common thread between most caves is humans. Especially cavers who visit caves much more often (and thus are much more likely to be a vector) than Joe Average.

 

That said the very fact that they don't know what's spreading it, means that Joe Average could be the problem and the source of fungus is Joe Averages unkempt hiking boots with a new mutation of fungus picked up at band camp.

 

So Joe Average and Joe Caver are in the same boat. Stay away while they figure it out. The commercial caves should shut down as well because of the unknowns. Just because Joe Average is less likely doesn't mean he's not the actual source. Specuation vs. reality.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

This stinks. I've never done much caving, but now that I'm into geocaching, I have a strong interest in looking for some of the nearby caches that are in caves...bah!

 

Maybe cavers will take a break and do some caching.

[+Castle Mischief]

...So let me re-phrase the question. What can somebody that doesn't enter caves regularly or plan on entering caves in the future (Joe Average) do to help? ...

 

The one part that's not speculation is the jumps that tell them something other than bats are spreading the fungus. A common thread between most caves is humans. Especially cavers who visit caves much more often (and thus are much more likely to be a vector) than Joe Average.

 

That said the very fact that they don't know what's spreading it, means that Joe Average could be the problem and the source of fungus is Joe Averages unkempt hiking boots with a new mutation of fungus picked up at band camp.

 

So Joe Average and Joe Caver are in the same boat. Stay away while they figure it out. The commercial caves should shut down as well because of the unknowns. Just because Joe Average is less likely doesn't mean he's not the actual source. Specuation vs. reality.

 

Okay, I'll try again.

 

Here I am sitting at home. I've given up caves. I avoid caves like the plague. I don't speak the word out loud.

 

Now while I'm sitting here not going into any caves all surrounded in my non-cave environment, is there anything else I can do to help? 'Cause I think I have the staying out of caves thing down.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Castle Mischief

[7rxc]

So let me re-phrase the question. What can somebody that doesn't enter caves regularly or plan on entering caves in the future (Joe Average) do to help?

 

Also... ellipses... best... used... sparingly...

 

Second thing first. ... is just a result of my being a bit dotty. I'll try to reform and curtail my misuse of ellipsis. I actually use it as a pause in thought rather than missing information or words. I'm much more careful in formal writing on those occasions when I do some.

 

My point on the common Joe was that 'he' could try monitoring his local environment for signs of infestation.

Once the bats become active again this spring they could be found in other areas. I also pointed out that there are many places that bats can and do exist other than caves. I suppose one should avoid entering such places and / or practise the best recommended (even if ineffective) procedures to attempt control.

 

I guess unless one is a scientist in one of several related fields there isn't much we can do on that front except observe and report for the next while. I see that my old Toronto group has cancelled it's Easter trip to WVa this year and might have to do so locally as well.

 

I did read a bit on the suspected fungus, which appears to be even found in Antarctica (at least forms of it).

So it may be more of a evolving form rather than something new. It may already be widespread without our help. Best to be wary, but not panicky.

 

Doug

[madratdan]

 

Assuming you have read the links, try reading the links again carefully...

 

again read the links...

 

again read...

 

I read the links. From them I gleaned the prevailing logic was to stay out of the caves. Seems there are a heaping bunch of unknowns in the mix and nobody really knows how the illness is being spread and doubt has been placed on the effectiveness of "wiping down" before entering or leaving a cave.

 

So let me re-phrase the question. What can somebody that doesn't enter caves regularly or plan on entering caves in the future (Joe Average) do to help?

 

Also... ellipses... best... used... sparingly...

 

One thing you can do to help is donate to the research projects. Another is to help educate the general public around you such as friends and co-workers. Here is a link to the National Speloelogical Society web site where you can get the latest updates on this incredably sad situation. http://www.caves.org/WNS/WNS%20Info.htm

[+Renegade Knight]

...Okay, I'll try again.

 

Here I am sitting at home. I've given up caves. I avoid caves like the plague. I don't speak the word out loud.

 

Now while I'm sitting here not going into any caves all surrounded in my non-cave environment, is there anything else I can do to help? 'Cause I think I have the staying out of caves thing down.

Well heck, now that I understand, I think you are stuck staying tuned just in case they do figure out that it's caused by something you can actually do something about. madratdan has the rest covered.

[+dacjohns]

As weird as this thread's topic might seem, I ...

1- ...am somewhat surpised to see it show up here;

2- ...even weirder, happened to know about it already!

But

3- ...didn't bat an eye when I saw who posted it.

 

Vin, I caught a segment with some cavers in NC who, under auspices of (or in association with) UNC & the state wildlife service, were in-cave checking bats for this disease. Apparently the only way they can tell is to pluck bats off the walls & examine 'em visually. They didn't see any (in the film clip) & just put 'em back when done, so I don't know what they'd do if they did spot infection....maybe remove it?

 

Thought it kinda odd (especially in light of the nature of the moratorium) that the thing they ask us potential 'carriers' not to do, they're right in there, doing it!

 

But, on behalf of me & mine, re compliance, NO problem....no problem a'tall!

Wonder if they're gonna be shuttin' down the Tourist Caves?

~*

 

Hopefully they are disinfecting their hands when leaving the cave.

 

When I was doing frog surveys we had to disinfect because of the possibility of spreading chytrid fungus even though cattle and wildlife could spread it from one water body to another.

[significant text above rendered in bold.]

 

Well, one thing that everyone in the field is agreed upon -- if it is indeed true that the organism is infectious and that one way it is spread is by visitors to caves -- is that it is nowhere near as simple as disinfecting hands, and rather, the organism would be present on shoes, clothing and gear (including ropes, carabiners, stuff bags, etc.), and thus washing hands would accomplish nothing at all in terms of prophylaxis.

 

Excellent points. I didn't think it all the way through. With the frogs we were concerned with whatever came in contact with the water. It has been awhile since I've been in a cave and forgot about all the contact with the floor, walls, and everything else.

[+bflentje]

So what if bats have white noses??? I thought most active forum people were atheists and believe evolution to be the only truth?

 

My first sentence was serious. The second one was uncalled for. Sorry.

[+Too Tall John]

So what if bats have white noses??? I thought most active forum people were atheists and believe evolution to be the only truth?

My first sentence was serious.

Google is your friend. So is Wikipedia. Both have saved me from looking ignorant many times.

The second one was uncalled for. Sorry.

Backspace key broken?

[+Castle Mischief]

So what if bats have white noses??? I thought most active forum people were atheists and believe evolution to be the only truth?

 

My first sentence was serious. The second one was uncalled for. Sorry.

 

It's a little more complicated than just a "new look" for the bats.

 

If you knew your second sentence was uncalled for then why did you post it? Your -theism of choice has no relevancy to the topic.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

So what if bats have white noses??? I thought most active forum people were atheists and believe evolution to be the only truth?

 

My first sentence was serious. The second one was uncalled for. Sorry.

I am sooo glad that you have returned to writing idiotic things that I can once again disagree with, as I had been getting worried there for a wee bit, when, a month or two ago, it actually appeared that we saw eye-to-eye on one or two matters. That worried me. That worried me a lot. It worried me even more than if I ever saw eye-to-eye with my arch-nemesis Sioneva or my arch-nemesis flask on any matter under the sun. ...sheesh!

 

Your post is full of idiotic statements, as I am sure you well know, because I strongly suspect that your post was meant to be a troll post. However, briefly, assuming that you really are as naive as you wish us to believe; here goes:

• White Nose Syndrome is deadly to bats, with a mortality rate of over 90% for infected bats, and it happens to bear the name "White Nose Syndrome" ONLY because most bats suffering from the disease develop white spots on their nose as one of many symptoms of the disease.
  
• Your inane assertion that only atheists believe in evolution, and your implied claim that all religious or spiritual people cannot and do not believe in evolution is mind-boggling. The reality is that a vast majority of religions and religious people, and also a vast majority of spiritual people, believe in evolution. And the reality is that only some small fundamentalist sects within mainstream religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and Shintoism reject the idea of evolution and instead believe in some variant of what is sometimes called "creationism".
  

Have a good day. I fervidly hope that you do not develop White Nose Syndrome this week and lose 60% of your bodyfat and 70% of your muscle mass and develop body-wide atrophy and white spots on your nose, and all that kind of thing.

[+bflentje]

QUOTE(bflentje @ Apr 6 2009, 09:49 AM)

 

So what if bats have white noses??? I thought most active forum people were atheists and believe evolution to be the only truth?

 

My first sentence was serious. The second one was uncalled for. Sorry.

 

I am sooo glad that you have returned to writing idiotic things that I can once again disagree with, as I had been getting worried there for a wee bit, when, a month or two ago, it actually appeared that we saw eye-to-eye on one or two matters. That worried me. That worried me a lot. It worried me even more than if I ever saw eye-to-eye with my arch-nemesis Sioneva or my arch-nemesis flask on any matter under the sun. ...sheesh!

 

Your post is full of idiotic statements, as I am sure you well know, because I strongly suspect that your post was meant to be a troll post. However, briefly, assuming that you really are as naive as you wish us to believe; here goes:

White Nose Syndrome is deadly to bats, with a mortality rate of over 90% for infected bats, and it happens to bear the name "White Nose Syndrome" ONLY because most bats suffering from the disease develop white spots on their nose as one of many symptoms of the disease.

Your inane assertion that only atheists believe in evolution, and your implied claim that all religious or spiritual people cannot and do not believe in evolution is mind-boggling. The reality is that a vast majority of religions and religious people, and also a vast majority of spiritual people, believe in evolution. And the reality is that only some small fundamentalist sects within mainstream religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and Shintoism reject the idea of evolution and instead believe in some variant of what is sometimes called "creationism".

 

Have a good day. I fervidly hope that you do not develop White Nose Syndrome this week and lose 60% of your bodyfat and 70% of your muscle mass and develop body-wide atrophy and white spots on your nose, and all that kind of thing.

 

Sweet, my troll worked.

 

My statement about white noses isn't naive. I'd call it lazy. The second of only two statements, which you classify as "many" BTW, was a troll, but only a little one. That I am guilty of... BUT, it was sincere in so far as the evolution part. The theology of forum dwellers should have been recanted.

[+Too Tall John]

QUOTE(bflentje @ Apr 6 2009, 09:49 AM)

 

So what if bats have white noses??? I thought most active forum people were atheists and believe evolution to be the only truth?

 

My first sentence was serious. The second one was uncalled for. Sorry.

 

I am sooo glad that you have returned to writing idiotic things that I can once again disagree with, as I had been getting worried there for a wee bit, when, a month or two ago, it actually appeared that we saw eye-to-eye on one or two matters. That worried me. That worried me a lot. It worried me even more than if I ever saw eye-to-eye with my arch-nemesis Sioneva or my arch-nemesis flask on any matter under the sun. ...sheesh!

 

Your post is full of idiotic statements, as I am sure you well know, because I strongly suspect that your post was meant to be a troll post. However, briefly, assuming that you really are as naive as you wish us to believe; here goes:

White Nose Syndrome is deadly to bats, with a mortality rate of over 90% for infected bats, and it happens to bear the name "White Nose Syndrome" ONLY because most bats suffering from the disease develop white spots on their nose as one of many symptoms of the disease.

Your inane assertion that only atheists believe in evolution, and your implied claim that all religious or spiritual people cannot and do not believe in evolution is mind-boggling. The reality is that a vast majority of religions and religious people, and also a vast majority of spiritual people, believe in evolution. And the reality is that only some small fundamentalist sects within mainstream religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and Shintoism reject the idea of evolution and instead believe in some variant of what is sometimes called "creationism".

 

Have a good day. I fervidly hope that you do not develop White Nose Syndrome this week and lose 60% of your bodyfat and 70% of your muscle mass and develop body-wide atrophy and white spots on your nose, and all that kind of thing.

Sweet, my troll worked.

 

My statement about white noses isn't naive. I'd call it lazy. The second of only two statements, which you classify as "many" BTW, was a troll, but only a little one. That I am guilty of... BUT, it was sincere in so far as the evolution part. The theology of forum dwellers should have been recanted.

First, forum trolling is usually frowned upon.

 

Secondly, if you truly wish to recant your last statement, you can hit the "Edit" button directly below your post. I seriously doubt that you actually mean it, since you apologized for saying it even before you hit the "Add Reply" button. Like I said, perhaps your backspace key was broken?

 

Finally, Reading your quote above is confusing, at best. Because there is no separation between your your original statement and Vinny's post, it looks like you are arguing with yourself. I assume you highlighted Vinny's post, then copy/pasted it. A better method would be to hit the "Reply" button, found right at the bottom of the post you want to respond to.

 

Below is a pic with the buttons circled, "Edit" in RED and "Reply" in BLUE. I look forward to seing their use in the future.

Hopefully, this assists you in your future trolls POSTS.

 

For further clarification, do not try and click on the circled buttons above, they are only an image. To reply to this post, you need to click on the "Reply" button to the lower right of this post.

 

Hey, look! I edited this post!

Edited April 6, 2009 by Too Tall John

[+bflentje]

First, forum trolling is usually frowned upon.

 

Secondly, if you truly wish to recant your last statement, you can hit the "Edit" button directly below your post. I seriously doubt that you actually mean it, since you apologized for saying it even before you hit the "Add Reply" button. Like I said, perhaps your backspace key was broken?

 

Finally, Reading your quote above is confusing, at best. Because there is no separation between your your original statement and Vinny's post, it looks like you are arguing with yourself. I assume you highlighted Vinny's post, then copy/pasted it. A better method would be to hit the "Reply" button, found right at the bottom of the post you want to respond to.

 

Below is a pic with the buttons circled, "Edit" in RED and "Reply" in BLUE. I look forward to seing their use in the future.

Hopefully, this assists you in your future trolls POSTS.

 

For further clarification, do not try and click on the circled buttons above, they are only an image. To reply to this post, you need to click on the "Reply" button to the lower right of this post.

 

Hey, look! I edited this post!

 

 

To help the suffering animals, Boyles and Willis suggest introducing a heat source into caves. They hope this will help the bats stay warm when awake, and minimize the amount of energy lost during periods of arousal. Bats already fly to the warmest parts of their cave when they awake, and the researchers argue the additional heat sources will simply “accentuate” their natural behavior. According to their simulation, mortality rates will drop to as little as 8 percent if localized heat sources are used.

 

Wooden warming boxes complete with heat coils and insulation are being designed. As bats must be able to lower their body temperatures during hibernation, researchers don’t want to raise the overall temperature inside the cave. Instead, the boxes will provide a momentary escape from the cold.

 

Of course the idea remains to be tested and, even if it works, saving sick bats means the fungus may be passed more easily. Yet, if current death trends continue, bat populations may collapse below the point of no return. "This isn’t a cure. We’re going for a stopgap," said Boyles. The origins of WNS are still unknown, and no other treatment is currently available.

[+mtn-man]

Sweet, my troll worked.

 

My statement about white noses isn't naive. I'd call it lazy. The second of only two statements, which you classify as "many" BTW, was a troll, but only a little one. That I am guilty of... BUT, it was sincere in so far as the evolution part. The theology of forum dwellers should have been recanted.

Don't make me pull this topic over. Stick to the topic.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Folks, I have, in the past several days, been contacted by several geocachers who had been planning to hunt geocaches located in caves in the 17 affected states over the next month or so, and, in each case, they said or wrote comments much along the following lines, indicating that they were not planning on observing the moratorium; the following two quotes are typical of the several comments that I have received from geocachers since starting this thread:

Do you know anything more about the ownership of the property than the people in the area? I bet the government doesnt own this cave and doesnt have authority to stop us. Also, this cave is a long way from the affected areas. [ed. note: but it is on the list of 17 states from USFWS] Besides, I do not think there are many bats in this cave, even though its a large cave. So the trip is on.

 

The cache is located in a cave on private property or state park property, I am not sure which. Therefore, they [ed. note: USFWS] can't tell me that I can't visit the cave for the cache. They don't own it. We are gonna go get this cache because we are PSYCHED! Whoo!

 

I have offered each correspondent much the same answer, and the following is what I offered to one of the questioners:

 

The cave to which you are referring is located in Kentucky. Kentucky is indeed one of the 17 states affected and named in the USFWS request for a voluntary moratorium on visits to caves and abandoned mines. And, as is well-known in the caving world, it is not a matter of who owns the cave and whether USFWS has jurisdiction over the caves in question, as this is a polite request for a VOLUNTARY moratorium on visits to caves.

 

As for your claim that bats have never been seen in the cave, well, how would you know, unless you had spent years surveying the cave (and, in any case, bats often roost in tiny crevices in caves, particularly in tiny branch tunnels which humans cannot enter)? And, it is also well known, according to the cache owner, who is a geologist, that the 100 foot pit cave involved is part of a much larger cave system, because folks standing at the bottom have reported that they often feel drafts and wind from some of the small tunnels branching off it. So, at the least, it is almost a certainty that bats enter some of those smaller tunnels, likely via small openings at the surface too small for a human to be able to use.

 

So, bottom line is this:

• It is almost a certainty that the cave harbors some bats.
  
• Kentucky is indeed one of the states included on the list of 17 states in the notice from USFWS.
  
• Yes, it is true that USFWS likely does not own the cave, and therefore, as is true of 98% of the caves in those 17 states, USFWS does not have legal jurisdiction over that cave, and that is one of many reasons why the USFWS and other interested parties have politely ASKED folks (cavers, casual cave tourists, scientists and geocachers) to maintain a voluntary moratorium for now until the disease is better understood. The operative word here is voluntary
  
• No one is FORCING you to abstain from visiting the cave. Rather, the community of folks who visit caves (and this includes geocachers who own or hunt caches in caves or abandoned mines) is being asked to do so for a while until the mode of transmission of this bat disease is better-understood.
  

Again, no one is forcing you -- whether you be an owner of a cache located in a cave or abandoned mine in one of those 17 states affected by the USFWS request or someone who is planning on hunting one of those caches in the near future -- but it might be wise to comply with the moratorium for a while until more is known. As an NSS member myself, I note that compliance with the moratorium seems to be quite high among members of the NSS and their friends and associates.

 

There is another factor here to consider as well: There are some factions in the caving world, including within NSS, which is an official advisor to numerous federal agencies on cave policies, cave access and laws affecting caves and cave access, which have historically been rather wary of the idea of geocachers entering caves to hunt caches, and the practice has already been all but banned in several states in the USA (including Wyoming) due to such concerns. Thus, if a significant percentage of geocachers were to ignore this request from USFWs for a voluntary moratorium on entering caves and abandoned mines in the 17 affected states, it could easily earn geocaching a black eye -- or, as some would say, MORE of a black eye than it already has -- in the caving world, including with regulatory authorities who make laws regarding cave access.

 

In my case, the sole geocache which I own which has a stage located in a significant cave is Psycho Urban Cache #14, and, even though that cave is very small and under 170 feet in length, I have decided to temporarily disable the cache for a while; I have been fully supported in that decision by the local geocachers who also happen to be cavers. Along with some of my geocacher friends who are also cavers, I am a bit astounded that it appears so far that very few owners of other caches located in caves (or abandoned mines) in those 17 states have chosen to temporarily disable their caches, and it is also a bit interesting to me that Groundspeak administrators and/or reviewers have not issued a statement urging geocachers to comply with the moratorium.

 

In closing, I am certainly not trying to tell you what to do; I can merely suggest to you -- as a fellow geocacher who also has been a long-term caver since 1974 and who belongs to NSS -- what might be the most prudent path to take. The final choice over your behaviors is yours alone. In my own case, a** you can tell from my first two posts in this thread, I pondered long and hard before deciding to disable my own cave cache, due particularly to the fact that the cave in question is very small and also the fact that is regularly visited by "townies" in their teens and twenties, who use it as a "party cave", and who are certain not to observe any moratorium, even if they had heard of it!

 

I hope this helps to clarify the situation a bit for those who have asked and for those who have stated that they plan on visiting cave caches located in those states anyway.

 

.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I'm not saying that my government would engage is silly folderol, but...

 

What percentage of bats actually live in caves?

 

We have bats all over the place, but very few caves.

 

Ever watch what's circling the street lights in cities large and small? Lotsa bats. No caves.

 

They live in attics and eaves and barns and warehouses and such.

 

I have no facts to support this, but I would bet that less than 5% of bats live in caves.

 

But I must be wrong, because my government wouldn't create a useless moratorium based on folderal, would it?

 

Edit to add:

Ut oh. Maybe they would. When you don't know what the problem is, ban something...

 

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nose_syndrome :

 

Possible causes

 

A 2008 study determined that the fungus found on the muzzles, wings, and ears of infected bats is a member of the Geomyces genus.[7][8] It is not known if the fungus is a causative agent in the bat deaths. The fungal growth may be an opportunistic infection, rather than the actual cause of the condition. A loss of winter fat stores[9], pneumonia,[10] and the disruption of hibernation and feeding cycles caused by warm and variable winter weather[11] have all been suggested as causes or contributing factors.

 

Extensive spraying of pesticides to combat West Nile Virus or other environmental toxins could be a cause by directly affecting the bats or reducing insect populations, their primary source of food.[4]

 

One researcher suspects a cause of the syndrome may be bat flies and this possibility is being investigated. Bat flies are small parasites that live in a bat's hair and feed on its blood. They may be involved in transmission of a pathogen.[12]

 

Because no one yet knows how the condition spreads, cave management and preservation organizations have been requesting that cavers limit their activities and disinfect clothing and equipment that has been used in possibly infected caves.[13] In some cases, access to caves is being closed entirely.[11] Despite these efforts, the spread of the disease to Aeolus Cave, New England's largest hibernaculum, which has had limited human access since 2004, "complicates" the theory that human activity is directly contributing to the condition.[14] As of March 2008, the disease had spread to Vermont, western Massachusetts and northwestern Connecticut. In February of 2009, it had spread to New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and eastern West Virginia. The migratory nature of bats threatens to spread the malady throughout the northeastern United States.[15]

 

Yep, facts often have a way of "complicating" gubmint initiatives.

Edited April 12, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Team Cotati]

It's a conspiracy.

[+Indy-Md]

Vinny seems to be the one primarily running the WNS flag, doing his active best to get the word out here in the geocaching world to as many users and visitors of caves as possible. I have been remiss in not getting on here and joining him in this (after first posting notes about this to both his PUC#14 in WV and DocDitto's "High&Low" cache in PA; sorry Vinny).

 

I know to most of you out there I'm a Nobody (unlike Vinny, who is Somebody). But in addition to being a cacher, I, too, am an active caver (and climber, and a bunch of other things). I've been watching the news of WNS for over two years now as it is being discussed on caving forums and mailing lists, watching the spread of the disease as it is being discovered (http://www.fws.gov/northeast/graphics/WNS_Mapping_04-07-09_DS.jpg last updated 4/7/09), and have packed away my caving gear for the time being. There are many in the caving community who are grumbling over this moratorium as well (note Vinny's later post emphasizing the moratorium is voluntary), but by and large the cavers are staying out of caves in the affected and adjoining states (this is saying something for that user group!). Even if it is too late to stop or slow the spread, they are at least trying, as users and stewards of caves, to be responsible on this matter. Cachers who go caving, even if just once for a cache, should act as responsible as well. I was seriously disheartened to see the excerpts Vinny posted on Apr 10 by other cachers emailing him and stating they were going into caves anyway. Is caching really so much more important than the possibility that they may be a carrier of something wiping out an entire species??

 

Someone else asked (repeatedly) if there is anything "Joe Average" can do. Well, yes, actually, there is. Inform other user groups who visit caves of this situation. Use the links earlier in this thread. I had an opportunity to pass on the notice about WNS to a college outdoors club in Pittsburgh a couple weeks ago. They are very active in climbing, camping/backpacking, and caving. They had not heard about WNS. BUT, once they heard and read about what was happening, they have all decided to put caving on a hiatus for the year (or more if necessary). They were planning on going to Seneca Rocks in WV for a weekend of climbing and caving. The caving aspect of the trip was canceled. Some of them were unhappy, but understood the larger picture being presented.

 

One good(?) thing the spread of WNS is doing is forcing many cavers to change their procedures in cleaning their gear. That, imo, is a big plus. I have always cleaned my gear after every cave (but mostly because after storing damp, muddy gear in a bag for a week or more, spores from certain caves would start growing on it all ). I know a number of cavers who never cleaned their gear ("mud is mud is mud"). They are, as a whole, having a view changing perspective now. And a great many are adapting accordingly.

 

As weird as this thread's topic might seem, I ...

1- ...am somewhat surpised to see it show up here;

2- ...even weirder, happened to know about it already!

But

3- ...didn't bat an eye when I saw who posted it.

 

Vin, I caught a segment with some cavers in NC who, under auspices of (or in association with) UNC & the state wildlife service, were in-cave checking bats for this disease. Apparently the only way they can tell is to pluck bats off the walls & examine 'em visually. They didn't see any (in the film clip) & just put 'em back when done, so I don't know what they'd do if they did spot infection....maybe remove it?

 

Thought it kinda odd (especially in light of the nature of the moratorium) that the thing they ask us potential 'carriers' not to do, they're right in there, doing it!

 

But, on behalf of me & mine, re compliance, NO problem....no problem a'tall!

Wonder if they're gonna be shuttin' down the Tourist Caves?

~*

 

One thing I wanted to address while reading this thread was the note above which I didn't see really answered well in any subsequent posts. Star Hopper noted that despite the moratorium, there were people still visiting caves despite the moratorium. They are going in soley to investigate bat populations for evidence of WNS (and in some caves they found it where they were not expecting to; hence the notice of it being in southern VA). I know some of these people personally (particularly around the WV/VA/MD region) and they have explained on the caving lists that they go through fairly elaborate and rigorous decontamination procedures after each cave visit. But even they admit they don't know yet if their methods of scrubbing and cleaning really works (time will tell). And some of their procedures would be detrimental to use on certain gear (such as nylon ropes). So they try to avoid visits to multiple vertical-access caves.

 

Oh, and they don't have to necessarily pluck bats off the walls. One of the things they look for are inordinate numbers of dead bats on the floor and check the bodies for any sign of the white fungus which would be on the bats' noses and wing membranes. Barring that, they can look at the bats themselves and see if they have any fungus growing on them. And they also look to see where the bats are hiberating (usually they are further back in the caves, but WNS-afflicted colonies seem to have migrated closer to the entrance or opening of the caves they are in).

 

All they know right now that the fungus is a sign. Whether it's the sign, or the cause, or just an opportunistic invader...again, time will tell.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Indy-Md

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

My post wasn't encouraging folks to ignore the moratorium, it was to ask two serious questions - what percentage of bats live in caves and what if anything can be done to stop the spread amongst bats that don't.

 

If this disease affects and can be spread by non-cave-living bats, and they don't even know if humans in caves spreads it, then the cave moratorium starts to look like a boondoggle.

 

From Wikipedia, boondoggle

refers to government or corporate project involving large numbers of people and usually heavy expenditure; at some point, the key operators have realized that the project is never going to work, but are reluctant to bring this to the attention of their superiors. Generally there is an aspect of "going through the motions" – for example, continuing research and development – as long as funds are available to keep paying the researchers' and executives' salaries. The situation can be allowed to continue for what seem like unreasonably long periods, as senior management are often reluctant to admit that they allowed a failed project to go on for so long. In many cases, the actual device itself may eventually work, but not well enough to ever recoup its development costs.

 

A distinguishing aspect of a boondoggle, as opposed to a project that simply fails, is the eventual realization by its operators that it is never going to work, long before it is finally shut down.

[+Indy-Md]

My post wasn't encouraging folks to ignore the moratorium, it was to ask two serious questions - what percentage of bats live in caves and what if anything can be done to stop the spread amongst bats that don't.

 

I'm no bat expert. Heck, I've learned more about bats in the past year and change than I knew all my outdoor career. Still, I'm no expert.

 

Depending on the region probably depends on whether you have more or less bats living in or hibernating in caves. The further north you go, the more bats probably live in, and probably more likely even hibernate in, caves. At least during the winter months. In the summer months you're likely to find bats in more widespread locations.

 

Note: WNS is not affecting ALL bat species (yet). There are certain species which seem more or less resistant to it than others. Again, a lot of unknowns involved here, but WNS is definitely more prevalent in certain species of bats (notably little brown bats (Myotis lucifugus), northern long-eared bats (M. septentrionalis), and federally listed (endangered) Indiana bats (M. sodalis)).

 

If this disease affects and can be spread by non-cave-living bats, and they don't even know if humans in caves spreads it, then the cave moratorium starts to look like a boondoggle.

 

This is not a new argument amongst the cavers. Many of them see the moratorium as a "closing the barn door after the horse escaped" situation. But that said, they are still respecting the moratorium. I guess if only so no one can point fingers at them later. The USFWS is just trying to reduce one possible vector on the transmission of the disease, even though I would tend to agree on the whole barn door stance. If it's gotten as far as it has (whether or not humans were or are a vector), it's probably much more widespread than we can possibly know, and bats will unknowingly do the job of transmitting it locally to other caves.

[+Renegade Knight]

...[*] Yes, it is true that USFWS likely does not own the cave, and therefore, as is true of 98% of the caves in those 17 states, USFWS does not have legal jurisdiction over that cave, and that is one of many reasons why the USFWS and other interested parties have politely ASKED folks (cavers, casual cave tourists, scientists and geocachers) to maintain a voluntary moratorium for now until the disease is better understood. The operative word here is voluntary...

 

It's worth pointing out that the USFWS is the defacto source of more wildlife expertise than most states combined and I'd put their opinion over that of most self professed experts or at least opinionated Joe's such as myself.

 

While the USFWS won't own the cave in most cases, they are the lead agency when it comes to wildlife including bats wherever they may be.

 

By all means people should question them and make them earn their stripes, but if the answer is something a person doesn't want to hear it doesn't invalidate it or make that person right.

[+Renegade Knight]

...If this disease affects and can be spread by non-cave-living bats, and they don't even know if humans in caves spreads it, then the cave moratorium starts to look like a boondoggle....

 

If by using expert judgment and higher math to show that while they don't know how it's being spread by humans, but that it likely is being spread by humans a boondoggle, then yes it's a boondoggle.

 

Locally I'm caught between a rock and a hard place with a guy who says that the deer that come into his yard at dusk are migrating, every day, year round and I'm flat out wrong if I tend to believe fish and game on the subject.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

...[*] Yes, it is true that USFWS likely does not own the cave, and therefore, as is true of 98% of the caves in those 17 states, USFWS does not have legal jurisdiction over that cave, and that is one of many reasons why the USFWS and other interested parties have politely ASKED folks (cavers, casual cave tourists, scientists and geocachers) to maintain a voluntary moratorium for now until the disease is better understood. The operative word here is voluntary...

 

It's worth pointing out that the USFWS is the defacto source of more wildlife expertise than most states combined and I'd put their opinion over that of most self professed experts or at least opinionated Joe's such as myself.

 

While the USFWS won't own the cave in most cases, they are the lead agency when it comes to wildlife including bats wherever they may be.

 

By all means people should question them and make them earn their stripes, but if the answer is something a person doesn't want to hear it doesn't invalidate it or make that person right.

Very well said... And, while it is eminently true that USFWS DOES employ a very large number of wildlife veterinarians and wildlife biologists, what makes this request by USFWS for a voluntary moratorium all the more interesting and persuasive is that the suggestion and push for this temporary voluntary moratorium did not originate solely with their own expert staffers, but rather, came from a broad array of wildlife veterinary, wildlife biology and cave biology experts from across the world. So, it can hardly be said -- as TAR has tried desperately to infer, likely due to his own personal issues with government and authority figures -- that this ban originated with mindless bureaucratic administrators within the USFWS. In fact, this voluntary moratorium has received wide support, even from within the National Speleological Society (aka NSS, of which I am a member) and other caving organizations.

 

What I find somewhat bit disturbing regarding this whole request for a voluntary moratorium is the continuing and ongoing spectacle whereby I am seeing geocachers who plan to tackle Cavers Plunge Extreme in Kentucky in the near future offer up all sorts of specious self-serving arguments and lies via log notes in an attempt to support their publicly-stated decisions to visit that cave and find the cache within the next month. First, there is simply the matter that any discussions or debates about the matter do NOT belong on the cache listing page, but rather here on the forum, and, most importantly, several of the posters continue to post blatant lies and misstatements in order to support their decisions to visit the cave.

 

Incidentally, as someone who is both a scientist and a long-term caver, my own personal opinion on the matter of the cause of the disease happens to be that the fungal infection seen on the noses of affected bats is merely a sign and symptom due to a largely opportunistic infection and that the real underlying cause of White Nose Syndrome is two-fold, and due to the following variables:

• systemic weakening and immune system dysfunction due to toxicity from insecticides (sprayed with increasing frequency over the East Coast over the past few years in an attempt to reduce mosquito populations responsible for spreading West Nile disease (and other lesser-known mosquito-borne diseases)
  
• systemic degeneration due to mild starvation of many bats largely due to reduced availability of insects as food, again due to aggressive spraying (see above for further details) in many areas of insecticides which kill mosquitoes and other insects normally eaten by bats.
  

My opinion on this matter, as iterated above, is very similar to that of a number of experts in the field, and yet I still fully support the request by USFWS for a voluntary ban on entering caves and abandoned mines, because there is good reason to believe that one of the vectors for the spread of the fungi and other microorganisms responsible for the devastating secondary opportunistic infections seen in the affected bats is humans who visit caves. Please note that no one is claiming that humans are the only likely vector for the disease organisms, and rather, it appears that humans are simply one of several vectors. Thus, it appears that a temporary voluntary moratorium on entering caves and abandoned mines in the 17 listed states is a reasonable and sane short-term prophylactic measure until we can learn more about WNS disease in bats.

 

Incidentally, as a final closing note, I must point out, in light of repeated efforts by some geocachers (via posters log notes on the cache page listed above and via PMs and private emails) to claim that Kentucky is not on the list, the reality is that KY is indeed on the list of 17 affected states. Period.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

So, it can hardly be said -- as TAR has tried desperately to infer, likely due to his own personal issues with government and authority figures --

Well, there ya go. I been psycho anal-ized

Edited April 14, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

So, it can hardly be said -- as TAR has tried desperately to infer, likely due to his own personal issues with government and authority figures --

Well, there ya go. I been psycho anal-ized

Although your bias (i.e., blame government at all costs, no matter what the facts) was quite evident from the tone of your entire post, I did not need to engage in armchair deductions to come to that conclusion, and rather, I simply consulted the databases maintained by the CIA skunk ops division and by the Bavarian Illuminati -- both of them have extensive files on you, and your anti-government (and your dam* the facts if they get in the way attitude) bias is well documented in your files. Thank you for your interest in the matter and thank you for doing the needful!

Edited April 14, 2009 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+Indy-Md]

In case anyone has any interest, the following was posted to one of the caving mailing lists I'm on:

 

CBS News graciously released the raw footage from the February 2009

visit to Mt. Aeolus Cave, VT, including footage "too gruesome for

television." I edited the footage into a mini documentary of sorts. In

some places the dead bats on the floor are estimated at 300 per square

foot. Viewer discretion advised...this is not a warm and fuzzy bat

video for the kids. The camera was actually rolling as the group

stumbled up to the cave (knee deep snow!) for Scott and Al's initial

reaction, none of this was staged. The full version is the "Aeolus in

February 2009" link on the web page. The video shows all the clips CBS

took in the cave.

http://www.batmanagement.com/wns/wns.html

When you click the movie link, the file will start downloading. It is

112 MB in size, runs 15 minutes, and will open with QuickTime or

iTunes or probably any other up to date media player.

I enhanced the in-cave footage as much as I could with software I

have. With all indications that WNS is about to steamroll thru the

mid-atlantic states next winter, I hope to make a "last chance" effort

this fall to capture some large bat swarms on HD video at mines near

Pittsburgh and at Hellhole/Schoolhouse before they are gone or at

least impacted. If anyone would like camera and lighting setup info

details that created the BCM Shindle Iron Mine video (also on the

webpage below Aeolus) just email me privately. Even further, I would

be happy to overnight a camera and light to someone who wants it to

document a WNS site and would be happy to edit the footage into

something usable for educational/press/presentation/archive/state

museum use. Time is ticking folks.

Thanks,

 

John Chenger

Bat Conservation and Management, Inc.

220 Old Stone House Road

Carlisle, Pennsylvania 17015

 

I just watched the footage. It took about 10 minutes or so to download, and it runs 15 minutes long. Scott Darling and Alan Hicks are two of the leading researchers on WNS. The footage is not a warm and fuzzy on the plight of the bats. In fact, it's a bit heart-wrenching.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Indy-Md

[Tom Zentra]

I hate to tell you this, but these moratorium requests are nothing more than a waste of time.

 

Sooner or later all resources will get used up as the population continues to expand. If you think cavers are concerned now, wait until the U.S. has 400 or 500 million people.

 

Then too imagine how many more SUVs will be crowding state and national parks. There are already many parks that temporarily close their entrance to incoming vehicles until some guests have exited the park. Meanwhile, other guests wait in line outside running their engines.

 

In the end there is nothing you can do about the visitors. They will keep coming. The more publicity your issue has, the more you will arouse their curiosity. As a matter of fact, people will realize this might be their last chance in case something could be done, so they will make visiting caves a higher priority than if you had kept quiet.

[+gdpsych]

Vinny & Sue Team:

I am outraged! Lat me tell you what is bothering me. Lately, while geocaching in MD, PA, DC and WV, I, along with many other cachers whom I know, have witnessed a rather large number of stigmatic cachers -- that is, geocachers who have stigmata, you know, bloody lesions on the body corresponding to the wounds received by Jesus Christ during his crucifixion by non-cachers -- who are openly displaying their stigmata while geocaching.

 

I find this repulsive, not only because these people are dripping blood all over the trails and all over the cache containers, but also because these people are merely egotistical show-offs, and, in doing so, they are making those of us who are not stigmatics feel inadequate, like there is something wrong with us just because we are not victim souls who were chosen to suffer for God. Their act of displaying their stigmata openly is nothing more than one-upmanship! I am outraged!

 

I am outraged! (Did I say that already?) I demand that stigmatic geoachers immediately hide all of their bloody stigmatic lesions while geocaching, and that they stop broadcasting the fact that they are stigmatic.

 

I want to hear in this thread from other geocachers who agree with me! I will not allow anyone who disagrees with my demands to post in this thread, and, if anyone does try to post disagreeing or contrary posts in this thread, their homes will be infested by locusts and they will come down with the plague within one year of their offense.

 

Thank you for doing the needful.

 

 

.

 

 

 

So I guess this thread is real? Slam religion and protect the bats?

Edited April 17, 2009 by gdpsych

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

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