False Finds

[+Blue Blazes]

I am the owner of a “challenge” cache. The cache rules are fairly typical and quite clear: challengers find preliminary caches, they submit their cache lists to the owner for verification, and finally, only if approved, do they receive permission to hunt the final cache.

 

Like most challenge caches, this cache is designated a puzzle cache. However, Groundspeak directed me to publish the actual (not bogus) coords on the cache page. I was told I wasn't permitted to email the actual coords to the finalists. They had to see them on the cache page. I followed this rule, even though this does expose the final cache to potential misuse and mischief, and it leads me to my problem.

 

By the way, I was also told it is my responsibility to delete finds that do not qualify.

 

Now I have a unique situation where the same individual has twice logged finds without doing the preliminary challenge work. He has simply gone to the coords, found the final cache and logged the smiley face. I have twice deleted these false finds. He has also logged disruptive statements stating he has no plans to follow the rules of the challenge, but wants the benefit of a find anyway. I have deleted these comments, as well. I have twice written privately to this individual explaining the challenge rules and my position. I have even suggested that he place the challenge on his cache "ignore" list if the concern is to remove the cache from his local radar screen.

 

The cache has successful achievers, as well as other ambitious cachers in the process of completion. These folks have worked hard and have made sacrifices to complete the challenge. I don't believe it fair to them or in the spirit of geocaching to tolerate blatantly false finds.

 

Here's the question: No matter what you may think of a specific cache, does the owner have the responsibility and the right to remove illegitimate finds? And what else can be done in a chronic situation like this? Can a specific cacher be blocked from logging your cache? Can something be done with the cache coords and still stay Groundspeak legal?

[+Miragee]

I have three "challenge-type" caches and, although someone can go to the final container prior to completing the requirements, I haven't had the problem you are having. If someone did log a find without completing the requirements, I would delete their Found it. If they continued to log false finds and disruptive statements, I would continue to Delete their logs because, as in your situation, two of the three caches have had "successful achievers, as well as other ambitious cachers in the process of completion." It is not fair to them to allow a false find.

[Cache Whisperer]

 

 

Here's the question: No matter what you may think of a specific cache, does the owner have the responsibility and the right to remove illegitimate finds?

 

Yes

 

 

 

Can a specific cacher be blocked from logging your cache?

 

No

 

 

 

Can something be done with the cache coords and still stay Groundspeak legal?

 

Make it a ridiculously difficult puzzle and offer to email coords to anyone who completes the challenge, otherwise they have to solve the puzzle.

[+TMDMom]

I realize it's shutting the gate after the cows are out but could you put a lock of some sort on the final cache and the participants would need a code from you to open it?

[+Ambrosia]

 

 

Can something be done with the cache coords and still stay Groundspeak legal?

 

Make it a ridiculously difficult puzzle and offer to email coords to anyone who completes the challenge, otherwise they have to solve the puzzle.

 

I realize it's shutting the gate after the cows are out but could you put a lock of some sort on the final cache and the participants would need a code from you to open it?

Anything that requires an email to the cache owner for info to the final coords/a code to open the cache/etc. is not allowed without special permission from Groundspeak.

[Dinoprophet]

Normally, I take a very hands-off stance on policing logs. But it appears you have your challenges correctly listed as ? with Additional Logging Requirements. So you have every right, and even responsibility, to delete those logs.

 

Depending on just how disruptive the notes were, I'd consider leaving those. If this person wants to show the community his true character that way, I say let him.

 

ETA: The lack of ability to have the coordinates emailed seems like another reason to have a new Challenge cache type where that could be handled differently than other caches.

Edited June 14, 2008 by Dinoprophet

[Cache Whisperer]

 

Anything that requires an email to the cache owner for info to the final coords/a code to open the cache/etc. is not allowed without special permission from Groundspeak.

 

In my example, no such requirement exists.

 

If they solve the puzzle, they have the coords and are free to log the cache.

 

If they completed the entire challenge, the owner can opt to send them the coords for the final instead of them decrypting the puzzle.

[+Blue Blazes]

 

Anything that requires an email to the cache owner for info to the final coords/a code to open the cache/etc. is not allowed without special permission from Groundspeak.

 

In my example, no such requirement exists.

 

If they solve the puzzle, they have the coords and are free to log the cache.

 

If they completed the entire challenge, the owner can opt to send them the coords for the final instead of them decrypting the puzzle.

[+Blue Blazes]

If they completed the entire challenge, the owner can opt to send them the coords for the final instead of them decrypting the puzzle.

 

 

Sorry, I pushed the wrong reply button previously

.

Regarding the quote above: Groundspeak forbids the emailing of coords even if the challenge is completed.

[+sseegars]

 

Anything that requires an email to the cache owner for info to the final coords/a code to open the cache/etc. is not allowed without special permission from Groundspeak.

 

In my example, no such requirement exists.

 

If they solve the puzzle, they have the coords and are free to log the cache.

 

If they completed the entire challenge, the owner can opt to send them the coords for the final instead of them decrypting the puzzle.

 

I've never heard of GC having to give special permission for anything like this either.

[+Markwell]

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#mystery

 

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

 

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page. For example, a puzzle that requires research on public websites in order to determine the coordinates may be acceptable, while a puzzle that requires sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the solution in order to obtain the coordinates may not be. For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 kilometres) away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of Trackables that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

[+briansnat]

An owner certainly has the right to remove phony finds. Whether its a responsibility is debatable. Sometimes it's just not worth the grief of deleting logs. You tick the wrong person off and all of a sudden your caches go missig.

 

I guess one option is the next time he logs the illicit find, you post a note right above it explaining that you don't

consider his find legit, but if he needs the smiley that badly you aren't going to to delete it again.

[+DocDiTTo]

Other caches have been published that require an email to the owner to complete, so I'm not sure why this same special permission wasn't granted in your case. I can understand the reasoning behind that particular guideline, but for special challenge caches, I don't see why it's an issue. As you know, the PA Delorme Challenge works via an emailed final cache location, so does one of the Psycho Urban caches that Vinny & Sue Team have hidden. Those are just two of probably many examples.

 

All that aside, yes, you do have the responsibility to delete illegitimate finds. That this one person insists on trying to shortcut the process says much about his character, but you don't need to allow him to get away with it.

 

Stick to your guns. You may also want to ask Groundspeak to reconsider their position, especially now that you have a documented case of someone abusing the situation. Whether that will make a difference I don't know, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[+Blue Blazes]

As you know, the PA Delorme Challenge works via an emailed final cache location, so does one of the Psycho Urban caches that Vinny & Sue Team have hidden. Those are just two of probably many examples.

 

 

I was told that DeLorme challenges had special Groundspeak permission regarding emails. That permission did not apply in my challenge.

[+DocDiTTo]

 

I was told that DeLorme challenges had special Groundspeak permission regarding emails. That permission did not apply in my challenge.

 

It makes sense that Delorme Challenges have special permission. The other cache I referred to is GC106R4. I realize that just because they did it in one case doesn't mean it'll happen again, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask again. I don't know the history behind your request or their reasons for denial, so asking for another review may not be appropriate; that's your call.

 

It is disappointing that there are those who glorify the almighty smiley so much they're willing to cut corners and cheat to obtain one. I'd like to think cachers are generally better folks than that, but I guess there will always be those few who would rather "play the game their way".

[+TrailGators]

 

I was told that DeLorme challenges had special Groundspeak permission regarding emails. That permission did not apply in my challenge.

 

It makes sense that Delorme Challenges have special permission. The other cache I referred to is GC106R4. I realize that just because they did it in one case doesn't mean it'll happen again, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask again. I don't know the history behind your request or their reasons for denial, so asking for another review may not be appropriate; that's your call.

 

It is disappointing that there are those who glorify the almighty smiley so much they're willing to cut corners and cheat to obtain one. I'd like to think cachers are generally better folks than that, but I guess there will always be those few who would rather "play the game their way".

I agree. If I climb a mountain (or ever complete a challenge cache) the final cache is just the cherry on the banana split. The journey is the destination!

[+LewisClan77]

As you know, the PA Delorme Challenge works via an emailed final cache location, so does one of the Psycho Urban caches that Vinny & Sue Team have hidden. Those are just two of probably many examples.

 

 

I was told that DeLorme challenges had special Groundspeak permission regarding emails. That permission did not apply in my challenge.

 

I have a challenge cache too...Nor Cals 5 Oldest Challenge GC18MBV. I tried to do it where I would E-Mail the final coords when it was completed, but GS said that it was not allowed anymore. I even sent it to appeals, and tried to get an exception, but I was denied

[+Confucius' Cat]

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#mystery

 

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

 

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page. For example, a puzzle that requires research on public websites in order to determine the coordinates may be acceptable, while a puzzle that requires sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the solution in order to obtain the coordinates may not be. For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 kilometres) away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of Trackables that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

(moved red)

So how about this:

Put the coordinates in a picture posted on a public web page with ridiculously hard super encrypted puzzle that would lead to the URL of the public web page, thus making a legitimate puzzle that meets all guidelines and which, if solved, would therefore be an equally valid "find" as much so as the challenge. I might recommend some form of "one way encryption" that yields ambiguous results when reversed. It is believed to be "impossible" to decrypt, but that is what "they" said about every "unbreakable code" that has ever been written.

 

people who complete the challenge would not receive the coordinates but instead a "very helpful hint" to solve the puzzle- something like: 'Type this URL into your browser- ' www.goheretogetthecoordinatesofmycache.somescrewydomainname.com' "

 

Cats can be skinned in many ways.

 

otherwise i like briansnat's idea, except that if the person in question is the type that will take nasty revenge for your deleting their logs, quite probably they will still steal your caches if you insult them in a note.

[ao318]

I had completed a challenge cache in my area where the coordinates for the final cache were placed in the logs of the caches you needed to find before you could get to the final stage. Doing it this way enabled the cache owner to make its coordinates unknown to potential finders who hadn't completed the other caches.

 

Here is the cache I did GC1A7BH, "Puzzles, Puzzles, Puzzles". Maybe you can do this.

[+Blue Blazes]

Post removed.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Blue Blazes

[+Cardinal Red]

Post removed.

 

I don't know what's going on here. Why did you remove this post? Have you actually read the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines?

 

You have to check that you have read and understand the guidelines when submitting a cache. I'm not sure if you didn't read, didn't understand, or both. The post you just removed was correct information for a Traditional Cache, but incorrect for your Puzzle Cache. But, it is your responsibility to know that.

[+Blue Blazes]

Sorry Cardinal Red. I'm not all that familiar navigating the forums. I misread a prior post and was ressponding to it when I realized my mistake.

[+wimseyguy]

If you want to be the owner of a special cache with specific requirements and responsibilities for the seekers, you should be prepared to accept the specific responsibilities of ownership as well.

I think you are correct to delete these logs.

AFAIK you cannot ban someone from logging your cache.

 

I would also encourage deletion of the forum discussion logs on the cache page-that isn't the correct place for those discussions, this is.

[+FireRef]

I have several similar to this. The final cache in the series requires codes obtained from the caches leading up to it. This way, I can have fake coords on the final, and without finding the series caches, they don't have the info to find the final.

[Clan Riffster]

I have twice deleted these false finds.

Just a kwick note on semantics: (s)he located the cache, ergo, the "find" was not false. Perhaps there's a better way to express it?

Unqualified find? Illegitemate find? Maybe?

 

Anyhoo, on to the gist of the issue: The cache is yours, so you have a lot of leeway in your response. You can delete the logs to your heart's content, without fear of reprisal from Groundspeak. You may suffer other consequences, such as a tantrum throwing cacher destroying your cache(s), but I suspect you knew this going in, so it's probably not an issue for you. You could leave the log there, with a "note" explaining that the poster did not meet the qualifications for a find. That would appease the finder, (they get their preciouis smiley), and should satisfy those folks who do make the requisite sacrifices necessary to properly log the find.

 

I'm sure there's got to be another way of hiding the coords that would fit Groundspeak's guidelines. Maybe you could take a look at other "challenge" caches across the country and see how other reviewers handled getting them listed? If you could show Groundspeak that X% of challenge caches involve E-mailing the final coords, perhaps your case could be reconsidered? Another option would be to create an absolutely unsolvable puzzle. Tell those folks who are working on the challenge aspect that you will be happy to E-mail them enough hints to solve the puzzle once they complete the challenge? In practice, you could simply E-mail them the final coords, as a hint. Maybe?

 

Finally, thax for doing your part to bring a challenge to our caching lives!

 

-Sean

[Kenshi Clay]

like someone sorta mentioned already, why dont you just split the final cache's coordinates between the previous caches? Like have one of the prelim caches have the longtitude coordinates, and the other one have the latitude coordinates...that way they cant have the whole coordinate w/out having visited the other two caches.

[+Kit Fox]

As long as cachers want to place challenge caches, with silly requirements, they are going to have to deal with geocachers who don't want to play by the rules. Keep deleting the logs from the offending cacher, but be aware your other caches may turn up missing. An unhappy rule breaker can have an big "axe to grind."

 

Out of curiosity, why are your requirements for your I-10 Interstate Highway Challenge so obtuse? Your rules strike me as controlling. I like to find hard caches but this type of cache is more like work than fun.

[+J-Way]

Someone's already said it, but the easy way around this is to provide false coords for the listed location, but provide the legit coordinates in the form of a ridiculously difficult (but theoretically solvable) puzzle.

 

Start with the coordinates. Translate them into a defunct language, say Cherokee (the only Native American tribe with a written language).

Phonetically write the Cherokee words using English letters.

Encrypt the letters using a poly-alphabetic cipher, like a Venigere cipher.

Encrypt the Venigere key word (at least 10 letters!) in a separate Caesar cipher, or don’t provide it at all.

Encode the encrypted letters into binary.

Pad the binary numbers with a few hundred extra lines of ones and zeros (the real text should be somewhere in the middle).

Hide the binary in the source code of the page so that it’s not visible.

 

Optionally, if a person completes the “challenge”, you as owner can directly email the actual coordinates to the seeker.

 

While maybe not quite this difficult, a local puzzle cache follows a similar formula.

[Neos2]

Someone's already said it, but the easy way around this is to provide false coords for the listed location, but provide the legit coordinates in the form of a ridiculously difficult (but theoretically solvable) puzzle.

 

Start with the coordinates. Translate them into a defunct language, say Cherokee (the only Native American tribe with a written language).

Phonetically write the Cherokee words using English letters.

Encrypt the letters using a poly-alphabetic cipher, like a Venigere cipher.

Encrypt the Venigere key word (at least 10 letters!) in a separate Caesar cipher, or don’t provide it at all.

Encode the encrypted letters into binary.

Pad the binary numbers with a few hundred extra lines of ones and zeros (the real text should be somewhere in the middle).

Hide the binary in the source code of the page so that it’s not visible.

 

Optionally, if a person completes the “challenge”, you as owner can directly email the actual coordinates to the seeker.

 

While maybe not quite this difficult, a local puzzle cache follows a similar formula.

You know, if I did all that and someone figured out the puzzle and go the coordinates, I believe I would have to give them the smiley even if they didn't do the challenge!

 

Seriously, to my way of thinking, this isn't a puzzle cache, it's an ALR. The ALR are spelled out fairly clearly: You have to do X, Y, And Z before you can claim this cache as a find. If you don't, you "found" log will be deleted.

 

Is this guy trying to say that he is entitled to the smiley because he found the physical cache? Then he must not understand ALRs.

 

I'd offer to let the cacher post a note to the cache saying they went there and physically logged the log book, but don't (yet?) qualify for the find since they haven't completed the challenge.

[+eigengott]

Can a specific cacher be blocked from logging your cache?

 

In the paperlog in the cache? No.

 

So this is again a silly dance around online smileys. If you want people to do a real challenge, design it into your cache(s), so they can't do it without fullfilling the challenge.

[AZcachemeister]

I'd say let your undeserving finder have their smiley.

No need to post any notes, etc.

Those who DID (or do) complete your challenge will have the satisfaction of their accomplishment.

Those who DID NOT complete your challenge will be forever haunted by that fact.

Now that you know what can happen, and know several VERY GOOD ways to get around the issues, you can design a less 'short-cutable' challenge next time.

 

EDIT:How do you change the dang text color?

Edited June 16, 2008 by AZcachemeister

[+briansnat]

Those who DID NOT complete your challenge will be forever haunted by that fact.

 

I doubt the kind of person who would flout the rules for a cache would be haunted for a fraction of a second. Some people walk around with a sense of entitlement and are beyond shame.

[Skippermark]

Here's the question: No matter what you may think of a specific cache, does the owner have the responsibility and the right to remove illegitimate finds?

 

Yes, as a cache owner you should enforce the rules required to find your challenge cache. Doing anything differently would not be fair to those who found it properly.

 

However, rather than simply deleting the person's found log, you could send them a message and let them know they didn't meet the requirements of the cache and ask them to remove their log or change it to a note, saying they visited the cache if they prefer. They may be new or not fully understand the idea of a challenge cache, and I'd give them the opportunity to make it right first. If they haven't responded in a reasonable amount of time, then I'd delete it.

 

Edited to fix a silly spelling error.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Skippermark

[+Blue Blazes]

A few points of clarification regarding my challenge cache.

 

I was told by Groundspeak that my published coords had to be the actual final cache coords.

So various puzzle solving techniques (to determine final coords, etc.) are out. A challenge cache

really isn't a puzzle cache, but it falls in that catch-all category.

 

Geocachers are universally honest and fully understand that the final cache is off-limits within the rules until they complete the challenge. A simple misunderstanding is cleared up quickly. This situation has reached the second attempt at logging an illegitimate smiley.

 

Groundpseak has promised to control violators who claim the final cache without

completing the challenge. They have now taken action in my situation, and I thank them for

that.

 

For those who are not familiar with challenge caches, challengers have considerable

flexibility to choose the actual qualifying caches they wish to hunt within the cache rules. They are

not told what caches to hunt. They submit their list of qualifying caches to the cache owner

for verification. If approved, they are then invited to find the final cache and claim their

smiley face.

[+the hermit crabs]

I was told by Groundspeak that my published coords had to be the actual final cache coords.

So various puzzle solving techniques (to determine final coords, etc.) are out. A challenge cache

really isn't a puzzle cache, but it falls in that catch-all category.

I'm willing to bet just about anything that they didn't forbid using puzzle techniques to determine the final coordinates for your challenge cache. What they most likely did forbid was having an email from you being the only way to obtain the coordinates, since that is against the guidelines.

[+Blue Blazes]

the hermit crabs:

I'm willing to bet just about anything that they didn't forbid using puzzle techniques to

determine the final coordinates for your challenge cache. What they most likely did forbid

was having an email from you being the only way to obtain the coordinates, since that is

against the guidelines.

 

Sorry, I am not familiar with major "challenge" caches that utilize puzzle techniques. I am

familiar with challenge caches that instead require challengers to find qualifying caches before they

may hunt the final cache.

 

I certainly welcome your explanation of this direct quote from Groundspeak: "The guidelines

state that the posted coordinates need to be the actual location of the cache. It will need

to continue that way for your cache page."

 

I fully understand the email restriction.

[+Mudfrog]

the hermit crabs:

I'm willing to bet just about anything that they didn't forbid using puzzle techniques to

determine the final coordinates for your challenge cache. What they most likely did forbid

was having an email from you being the only way to obtain the coordinates, since that is

against the guidelines.

 

Sorry, I am not familiar with major "challenge" caches that utilize puzzle techniques. I am

familiar with challenge caches that instead require challengers to find qualifying caches before they

may hunt the final cache.

 

I certainly welcome your explanation of this direct quote from Groundspeak: "The guidelines

state that the posted coordinates need to be the actual location of the cache. It will need

to continue that way for your cache page."

 

I fully understand the email restriction.

Hey BB, If you have the cache listed as a ? (mystery, puzzle) then what you were told is wrong. The posted coordinates on the cache page do not have to be for the actual location of the cache. It sounds like there's a misunderstanding going on here. Set up a puzzle, hide the coords on the page somewhere, etc,,, you should be good to go as long as you get it set up to where people can get the coordinates without having to email for them.

 

And keep deleting those false logs!

[+Totem Clan]

Hey BB, If you have the cache listed as a ? (mystery, puzzle) then what you were told is wrong. The posted coordinates on the cache page do not have to be for the actual location of the cache. It sounds like there's a misunderstanding going on here. Set up a puzzle, hide the coords on the page somewhere, etc,,, you should be good to go as long as you get it set up to where people can get the coordinates without having to email for them.

 

And keep deleting those false logs!

Yes the coord's do have to be the correct coord's if it is a challenge cache.

 

Not all caches with the "?" icon are puzzles. If the cache is challenge cache, like the Interstate caches the BB has placed and is placing, then the coord's must be the real coord's.

The only exception to this currently allowed by GC is for DeLorme and County challenges.

(Check with your friendly local reviewer).

 

The reason that puzzle caches don't have the real coord's is because the real coord's are encoded on the page. Having a challenge cache with its ALR's and then encoding the coord's would be very awkward.

[+Ambrosia]

After reading all the posts in this thread, I think that some people are confused about what a Challenge cache is, because they're saying that the owner can just post parts of the coordinates in the caches that are part of the Challenge, to get the final coords. This is actually something different than a Challenge cache.

 

"Series" caches:

 

The owner places a few (usually) Traditional caches as part of a series. Each cache description says that you need to take note of some partial coordinates in the cache container, a lot of times written on the underside of the cache lid. The final cache in the series is designated as a Mystery/Puzzle cache. The only way you can log that final cache, is by going to the others and collecting all of the coordinates.

 

This is basically a bunch of stand alone caches placed by a cacher, with a "bonus" cache that can only be logged after completion of the others. It is listed as a Mystery/Puzzle cache, and the listed coordinates are bogus because you can get the final coords on your own.

 

"Challenge" caches:

 

The Challenge cache owner lists a type of cache, and amount, etc. that they want you to find. Examples are: Caches in all counties of a State, DeLorme pages, Fire lookout towers, Caches that start with all the letters of the alphabet. Those caches are owned by lots of different cachers. There can be quite a few of these caches that need to be found. The coordinates aren't put in these caches, because the caches are owned by other cachers, they may not be the caches that cachers choose to do for the challenge, etc.

 

This is basically collecting a bunch of caches in a category to meet the "challenge". The actual cache is listed as a Mystery/Puzzle cache, because it is an ALR that asks you to meet certain requirements in order to be able to log it. This is why the listed coordinates are the correct ones, since it is an ALR, and you are expected to meet the ALR for finding and logging the cache.

 

I hope that makes sense, and is an accurate explanation.

[CoyoteRed]

Legitimate Find: Anytime a person signs the logbook. It appears that Groundspeak is forcing you to allow legitimate finds without the logger completing the challenge.

 

False Log: An online log where the logger has not complied with whatever requirements the owner has set forth. Of course, this can only apply to online logs as getting one's signature in the physical logbook is the basic goal. If you can't get the appropriate obstacles in front of the cache to prevent signing the paper log then you can't prevent the find, you can only prevent the online log.

 

When to hunt a cache: as soon as you are able to figure out the starting coordinates. One of the ideas behind the requirement of no interaction between seeker and owner is "permission." Again, if you can't set adequate obstacles in front of the cache then maybe you should reconsider the challenge.

 

Challenge Caches: after a brief scan are generally ignored. I don't need someone to "challenge" me to find caches. I seek caches for the enjoyment of seeking the individual cache.

 

Deleting logs: I pretty much consider it appropriate to delete a log--besides abuse and spoilers--only when someone is claiming a smilie who didn't sign the log.

[Neos2]

I don't think I've ever seen a thread where so many people repsonding have not understood what was being said. Nice post Ambrosia, hopefully that will clear things up for a few people.

[4wheelin_fool]

Here's the question: No matter what you may think of a specific cache, does the owner have the responsibility and the right to remove illegitimate finds? And what else can be done in a chronic situation like this? Can a specific cacher be blocked from logging your cache? Can something be done with the cache coords and still stay Groundspeak legal?

 

I would delete the finds, but dont delete them immediately, wait a few days in each case, after they are posted to give him a chance to cool down and hopefully lose interest in reposting them. If that doesnt work after 3 or 4 times, and you have been polite in asking him to remove his logs, then leave the log, and put a note on the bottom of the cache page in bold text indicating that they have NOT completed the challenge and you are not deleting any more of their logs. Send them a nice note explaining why it is there, and then just forget about it.

[+the hermit crabs]

I was told by Groundspeak that my published coords had to be the actual final cache coords.

So various puzzle solving techniques (to determine final coords, etc.) are out. A challenge cache

really isn't a puzzle cache, but it falls in that catch-all category.

I'm willing to bet just about anything that they didn't forbid using puzzle techniques to determine the final coordinates for your challenge cache. What they most likely did forbid was having an email from you being the only way to obtain the coordinates, since that is against the guidelines.

Sorry, I am not familiar with major "challenge" caches that utilize puzzle techniques. I am

familiar with challenge caches that instead require challengers to find qualifying caches before they

may hunt the final cache.

 

I certainly welcome your explanation of this direct quote from Groundspeak: "The guidelines

state that the posted coordinates need to be the actual location of the cache. It will need

to continue that way for your cache page."

 

I fully understand the email restriction.

Where is this guideline listed? It's news to me. I'm looking at the Geocaching Listing Requirements/Guidelines page, and I can't find any reference to challenge caches. Is it printed on some other page (or is this yet another unwritten guideline)?

[+Totem Clan]

 

Where is this guideline listed? It's news to me. I'm looking at the Geocaching Listing Requirements/Guidelines page, and I can't find any reference to challenge caches. Is it printed on some other page (or is this yet another unwritten guideline)?

Under 'Mystery or Puzzle Caches' in the first paragraph.

 

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

 

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page. For example, a puzzle that requires research on public websites in order to determine the coordinates may be acceptable, while a puzzle that requires sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the solution in order to obtain the coordinates may not be. For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 kilometres) away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of Trackables that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

 

 

Edit to add: The second paragraph talks about ALR caches. Challenge cache is a term used to describe a certain type of ALR caches.

 

Caches with mandatory requirements in addition to signing the logbook should be listed as mystery caches. Examples include sending the cache owner a verification codeword found inside the logbook, performing some task at the cache location and taking a photograph, or writing the online log in a format or with content that satisfies the cache requirements. The mystery cache designation assists finders in identifying that something extra is required in order to log a find.

 

Edited June 16, 2008 by Totem Clan

[Dinoprophet]

 

Where is this guideline listed? It's news to me. I'm looking at the Geocaching Listing Requirements/Guidelines page, and I can't find any reference to challenge caches. Is it printed on some other page (or is this yet another unwritten guideline)?

Under 'Mystery or Puzzle Caches' in the first paragraph.

 

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

 

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page. For example, a puzzle that requires research on public websites in order to determine the coordinates may be acceptable, while a puzzle that requires sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the solution in order to obtain the coordinates may not be. For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 kilometres) away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of Trackables that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

 

 

Edit to add the second paragraph talks about ALR caches. Challenge caches are type term used to describe a certain type of ALR caches.

 

Caches with mandatory requirements in addition to signing the logbook should be listed as mystery caches. Examples include sending the cache owner a verification codeword found inside the logbook, performing some task at the cache location and taking a photograph, or writing the online log in a format or with content that satisfies the cache requirements. The mystery cache designation assists finders in identifying that something extra is required in order to log a find.

 

That doesn't say "...the posted coordinates need to be the actual location of the cache." In fact, the next sentence says many caches of this type are not at the listed coordinates.

 

BB's email quote suggests there is a guideline that challenge caches must be at the posted coordinates. I'm also wondering where that guideline is.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Dinoprophet

[+climbstuff]

A few points of clarification regarding my challenge cache.

 

I was told by Groundspeak that my published coords had to be the actual final cache coords.

So various puzzle solving techniques (to determine final coords, etc.) are out. A challenge cache

really isn't a puzzle cache, but it falls in that catch-all category.

 

Geocachers are universally honest and fully understand that the final cache is off-limits within the rules until they complete the challenge. A simple misunderstanding is cleared up quickly. This situation has reached the second attempt at logging an illegitimate smiley.

 

Groundpseak has promised to control violators who claim the final cache without

completing the challenge. They have now taken action in my situation, and I thank them for

that.

 

For those who are not familiar with challenge caches, challengers have considerable

flexibility to choose the actual qualifying caches they wish to hunt within the cache rules. They are

not told what caches to hunt. They submit their list of qualifying caches to the cache owner

for verification. If approved, they are then invited to find the final cache and claim their

smiley face.

 

Obviously, Groundspeak has grandfathered the Delorme, County and a few other challenges to allow for the emailing of coordinates, so it's great that they are going to take action in your defense!

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but here are some thoughts I had while reading, up to this point: Instead of an email, you could post your phone number! That probably wouldn't get approved either, by you or GS. However, at the posted coords, you could have hidden a wicked hard micro (first stage) with the coordinates to the final stage. Offering to email the hint for this micro to 'those who email you for a hint' (those who complete the challenge). This gets you away from the puzzle/ALR arguement.

 

Either way, it looks as if this situation will end soon. Good luck.

[+the hermit crabs]

 

Where is this guideline listed? It's news to me. I'm looking at the Geocaching Listing Requirements/Guidelines page, and I can't find any reference to challenge caches. Is it printed on some other page (or is this yet another unwritten guideline)?

Under 'Mystery or Puzzle Caches' in the first paragraph.

 

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

 

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page. For example, a puzzle that requires research on public websites in order to determine the coordinates may be acceptable, while a puzzle that requires sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the solution in order to obtain the coordinates may not be. For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 kilometres) away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of Trackables that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

 

I'm still not seeing how this contradicts my post above, in which I mentioned that requiring users to get the coordinates by email is against the guidelines. The issue in question is the one that says that challenge caches must have the actual coordinates posted on the page -- I'm not seeing that guideline written anywhere.

[+Totem Clan]

 

Where is this guideline listed? It's news to me. I'm looking at the Geocaching Listing Requirements/Guidelines page, and I can't find any reference to challenge caches. Is it printed on some other page (or is this yet another unwritten guideline)?

Under 'Mystery or Puzzle Caches' in the first paragraph.

 

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

 

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page. For example, a puzzle that requires research on public websites in order to determine the coordinates may be acceptable, while a puzzle that requires sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the solution in order to obtain the coordinates may not be. For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 kilometres) away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of Trackables that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

 

 

Edit to add the second paragraph talks about ALR caches. Challenge caches are type term used to describe a certain type of ALR caches.

 

Caches with mandatory requirements in addition to signing the logbook should be listed as mystery caches. Examples include sending the cache owner a verification codeword found inside the logbook, performing some task at the cache location and taking a photograph, or writing the online log in a format or with content that satisfies the cache requirements. The mystery cache designation assists finders in identifying that something extra is required in order to log a find.

 

That doesn't say "...the posted coordinates need to be the actual location of the cache." In fact, the next sentence says many caches of this type are not at the listed coordinates.

 

BB's email quote suggests there is a guideline that challenge caches must be at the posted coordinates.

Try the sentence before the highlight one.

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page.

 

The coord's must be on the cache page, either encoded in a puzzle or posted in the clear.

[CoyoteRed]

Try the sentence before the highlight one.

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page.

 

The coord's must be on the cache page, either encoded in a puzzle or posted in the clear.

Not exactly. Caches have to have grid coordinates as part of the hunt. The puzzle doesn't have to reveal coordinates, but could reveal other clues on how to proceed.

 

For instance, the posted coords can be bogus and used as only an anchor. A puzzle might describe a particular place to go and spot in which to look. There you find a tag with coordinates on it to punch into the GPS and continue with the hunt.

 

What that segment means is the cache must be solvable without any interaction between the owner and the seeker.

[CoyoteRed]

Ambrosia, great post. The only thing I'd change is:

This is basically a bunch of stand alone caches placed by a cacher, with a "bonus" cache that can only be logged found after completion of the others.

Stricken and emboldened text mine.

 

...only to clarify that logging and finding are two different things.