Jump to content

Blatant Commercial Listing


genegene

Recommended Posts

Now I'm ticked off to no end and I will try to keep my composure about this whole what is and what is not OK to list on a cache listing. So I will start by giving you the listing guide lines to what is a commercial cache listing....

-------------------------------------------

Commercial Caches

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services. If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial.

 

Some exceptions can be made. In these situations, permission can be given by Groundspeak. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first. If you do not have advance permission, your reviewer will refer you to Groundspeak.

-------------------------------------------------------

Caches that Solicit

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now read this Event cache listing in MAINE by the DELORME Company

 

GC1AC0E (copied at 11:15 am 4/17/08)

 

In addition to sponsoring Geocaching.com's 2008 Cache-In Trash-out Initiative, we are excited to announce that Team DeLorme is hosting a CITO event from DeLorme HQ in Yarmouth, ME, home of Eartha, the world's largest rotating and revolving globe!

There are a number of great cache sites in the area, which is close to Portland and Brunswick, as well as Bradbury Mountain State Park and Wolfe's Neck State Park. We will congregate at DeLorme HQ directly off of exit 17 on I-295 in Yarmouth, ME. Directions found here: (visit link)

Team DeLorme representatives will be on hand from 10am until 4pm to keep things running smoothly. We will provide a gathering spot for trash drop off, and all participants who bring trash (gathered from the cache sites, not your house :sad:) will receive a 15% coupon for the Map Store in DeLorme HQ. We are also planning a raffle for DeLorme products — details to follow!

UPDATE:

We are going to have a drawing, not a raffle, anyone who comes with CITO trash will have the chance to win a variety of great prizes from DeLorme. The drawing will be held at 3pm. All participants will also get a 15% discount coupon to the DeLorme Mapstore.

We will be grilling food all day and have a map showing all the caches in the surrounding area and access to Geocaching.com. You can use the new Cache along a Route" function on your way here or start here and find local caches.

You can also check it out on our DeLorme PN-20 blog: (visit link)

Come join Team DeLorme for some trashy caching fun and prizes on April 19th, rain or shine!

Published with permission of Groundspeak, Inc.

 

March 20 by Michael (0 found)

Published with permission of Groundspeak, Inc

[This entry was edited by Michael on Friday, March 21, 2008 at 10:19:23 AM.]

 

------------------------------------------------

 

This listing is so commercial that it is not funny. Here are some examples:

"RAFFLE", "DRAWING", " Team DeLorme representatives ", "15% discount coupon to the DeLorme Mapstore", "DeLorme HQ in Yarmouth, ME", "DeLorme PN-20 blog: (visit link)".

 

Delorme is using A CITO event as a platform for cachers to hopefully buy there products.

 

Why is it that the Delorme Company can list these words in the listing, but I had a 2 week hold on my 1st event listing because I had the word Raffle in it, then I changed it to Drawing, then Prizes, and in the end I had to say nothing about anything.

Lots of first time event planers have this same problem because we do not know that the word RAFFLE is in GS opinion is commercial.

Its a total slap in the face to us (cachers) when we see something like this. We can not list the fact that we are getting help from a local business, A link to anything that sells anything, Sponsors, Prizes, etc...

 

Example... The WMG picnic this year will be 3 days long and if you want to camp at the state park you need to get your reservations through Reserve America not at the park. This link could not be posted or Reserve America even mentioned.

I was told that my event could be archived if any reviewer or GS looked into the WMG.org site and saw the word raffle or drawing listed in the event schedule.

 

Groundspeak is not being fair to anyone anymore and there Guidelines/Rules should apply to everyone, even there sponsors/advertisers.

 

Am I not a sponsor? I have paid for a premium membership, bought products from GS, and from your advertisers, to show my support for Groundspeak and Geocaching. I own a Garmin GPSMap60, the Delorme GPS maping prducts, GSAK P.M., Palm Tun. E/2, CacheMate, Google Earth P.M., just to name a few items.

 

Why am I any different then Delorme?

How much more do I need to give you/buy from sponsors, to have a listing with sponsors, A Raffle listing, and links to a business, to have an event listed like Delorme does?

 

Your rules/guidelines need to be updated. They are not fair anymore to us (cacher) unless we give lots of money to you. It should say somewhere that if you give us lots of money we will list anything you want us to, and give you any leeway you want.

 

Its just not fair anymore......

Link to post

The guideline is to prevent cachers from using the website for free advertising. AKA - something where Groundspeak gets no money but somebody else does.

 

Groundspeak IS a business - whether you like that or not.

Link to post

all you people making jokes because he/she thinks its not fair well its not.

its not they can post but we cant , thats why this world sucks ,its all about money ,money and more money!

soon there going to charge to post new listings !! we hold events to help the earth and have fun ,we dont charge a dime and yes we have raffles for free with stuff we buy from gs.com ! whats wrong with that !

Edited by nakia319
Link to post

all you people making jokes because he/she thinks its not fair are idiots !

its not they can post but we cant , thats why this world sucks ,its all about money ,money and more money!

soon there going to charge to post new listings !! we hold events to help the earth and have fun ,we dont charge a dime and yes we have raffles for free with stuff we buy from gs.com ! whats wrong with that !

 

Actually, I think the word you are looking for is 'idots'. And I think the reason the world sucks is called 'gravity'. Which dictionary.com defines as: the force of attraction by which terrestrial bodies tend to fall toward the center of the earth.

 

I don't see anything about money in there, but I'll keep looking.

Link to post

...Its just not fair anymore......

Groundspeak gave permission. It appears that Delorme did the right thing in obtaining it. Your fees pay for the services that you recieve. They don't preclude other sponsors that Groundspeak may choose to work with.

 

Even if this site were non profit and member controlled (which I would love to see) you will see this kind of sponsorship because the bills have to be paid and there is alwasy something that can be improved if only there were a few more dollars.

Link to post

15% off this means they would like you to buy things and do you think an event like this foods free !all the events i went too its free yes its good to bring something to share but if you dont its ok !

 

Dude, it's a CITO event, not a cookout. I don't think they'd be eating, from the listing, and I doubt they'd be charged to pick up trash. :sad:

 

And you really should lay off the "!" and try using "." instead, maybe? Calm down...

 

(Edited to note, off the subject, that !all means 'not all', in programmer-speak. Which isn't what I think you meant.)

Edited by Sioneva
Link to post
all you people making jokes because he/she thinks its not fair are idiots !

In addition to what has been said, calling anyone (but yourself I guess) an "idiot" is clearly against the forum guidelines. Please post with respect to other community members or you might find your ability to post removed for some period of time.

Link to post
This listing is so commercial that it is not funny. Here are some examples:

"RAFFLE", "DRAWING", " Team DeLorme representatives ", "15% discount coupon to the DeLorme Mapstore", "DeLorme HQ in Yarmouth, ME", "DeLorme PN-20 blog: (visit link)".

For clarification, the page you quoted above says in the UPDATE that it is "not a raffle". You are complaining about them giving things away?

 

Am I not a sponsor?
Not really. You are a subscriber. You have subscribed to the services offered with the purchase of a Premium Membership. There is a huge difference between being a "subscriber" and a "corporate sponsor", both in terms of money involved and benefits derived.

 

I have paid for a premium membership, bought products from GS, and from your advertisers, to show my support for Groundspeak and Geocaching. I own a Garmin GPSMap60, the Delorme GPS maping prducts, GSAK P.M., Palm Tun. E/2, CacheMate, Google Earth P.M., just to name a few items.

Garmin and DeLorme are advertisers, GSAK might be (don't think so), but Palm Tungsten E2, Cachemate, and Google Earth are not sponsors. I am sure they are happy that you support them, but they have nothing to do with the issue. Edited by mtn-man
Link to post

Thank you nakia319 for seeing what I am saying, and to anyone else that does not understand:

 

I am NOT saying that GS shouldn't have published the listing, What I am saying is that they have links and words in it that goes against every thing that GS has on there "can not say Guidelines/Rules". Delorme is promoting themselves and want you to "HOPEFULLY" buy there products. With a 15% discount you might buy something that day.

 

I do not fault Delorme for wanting you to buy stuff, They are a supporter and an advertising partner for GS but to see of these links and the word raffle/drawing in the listing is wrong. I don't see any way that it is right.

I am told no way by my reviewer, yet if you give GS money it can be in there. How is that fair? money or no money

If I cant say that a local business is helping out with an event that wants no money from anyone, just to show there support for outdoor recreation or add a link to the place that you need to go in order to reserve your camp site, why can Delorme say we want your money and we are going to give you 15% off of your purchase if you come out to THIS event...

 

I do not fault GS for trying to get money anyway they can, but to tell us no, and then tell Delome yes is a smack in anyone's face who has run into problems with cache listings because of links or the non intentional promotion of a business.

 

Rules should apply to everyone if they are listed in the guidelines, even your sponsors

Link to post
-------------------------------------------

Commercial Caches

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services. If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial.

 

Some exceptions can be made. In these situations, permission can be given by Groundspeak. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first. If you do not have advance permission, your reviewer will refer you to Groundspeak.

-------------------------------------------------------

Caches that Solicit

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

They asked first, exactly as is written in the guidelines. They were give permission, as is written by Michael on the cache publishing note. They followed the "rules" (actually guidelines, not rules).
Link to post

Rules should apply to everyone if they are listed in the guidelines, even your sponsors

 

And it appears the rules were followed. Delorme asked permission, Groundspeak said "Yes"... You are more than welcome to create a similar event and ask Groundspeak for permission, but be prepared for them to tell you "No"..

 

You aren't implying that Groundspeak should be required to say yes to everyone are you?

Link to post

 

Am I not a sponsor? I have paid for a premium membership, bought products from GS, and from your advertisers, to show my support for Groundspeak and Geocaching. I own a Garmin GPSMap60, the Delorme GPS maping prducts, GSAK P.M., Palm Tun. E/2, CacheMate, Google Earth P.M., just to name a few items.

 

Why am I any different then Delorme?

 

I'm sure if you sponsored GS with the same amount of money Delorme does...you could have a commercial event as well.

Link to post
You aren't implying that Groundspeak should be required to say yes to everyone are you?

To tag onto that thought, they should not be required to say no to everyone either.

 

Exactly!

 

Another example would be the Jeep Travel Bugs. They are very commercial...but they are still fun to find. :sad:

 

As users of this site, I doubt we would be able to produce our own commercial trackables with a custom icon...and I'm ok with that.

Link to post
This listing is so commercial that it is not funny. Here are some examples:

"RAFFLE", "DRAWING", " Team DeLorme representatives ", "15% discount coupon to the DeLorme Mapstore", "DeLorme HQ in Yarmouth, ME", "DeLorme PN-20 blog: (visit link)".

For clarification, the page you quoted above says in the UPDATE that it is "not a raffle". You are complaining about them giving things away?

 

No, most events have some sort of raffle or giveaways.

 

1.) What I am complaining about is that they have the words "Raffle" and "Drawing" in the listing. I was not allowed to post either of those words in the WMG 1st or 2nd Annual Picnic listing. The 1st event listing was held up for (i think) 2 weeks because of the rules that I still can not find anywheres in the GS listing Guidelines about the words Raffle, and Prizes.

Why is it that Delorme has both of those words up there still?

 

2.) The 15% discount if you go to the event and want to buy a product of theirs.

 

Caches that Solicit:

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

Definition of Solicit

1.)To persistently endeavor to obtain an object, or bring about an event.

2.)To woo; to court.

3.)Any action requesting money, either by cash, check or payroll deduction, on behalf of charitable organizations.

 

If the discount is not a solicitation, what is considered a solicitation then? They are offering the discount to get your money at the event are they not?

 

The listing should be rewritten, just like everyone else has to to do if there is something wrong with there listing.

Link to post

If the discount is not a solicitation, what is considered a solicitation then? They are offering the discount to get your money at the event are they not?

 

Noone is saying that it is not a solicitation. But Groundspeak granted permission for them to solicit. Do you understand that they may have a stake in allowing a multi-million dollar partner to solicit on the website, whereas allowing you to solicit for Joe's Steak Shack would not be allowed?

 

*Edited quotes

Edited by ReadyOrNot
Link to post

The solicitation part of the guidelines is primarily regarding solicitation of donations. Note the examples given:

For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted.
It is a separate issue, totally unrelated to the issues you are addressing with this particular cache page. Your issues are of a commercial nature, not a solicitation nature.

 

Still, this would apply:

Some exceptions can be made. In these situations, permission can be given by Groundspeak. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first.
Link to post

genegene - I really don't understand what your point is. :sad: Here are the facts, as I see them:

 

1. "Some exceptions can be made. In these situations, permission can be given by Groundspeak."

 

2. Permission was granted by Groundspeak as evidenced by, "Published with permission of Groundspeak, Inc."

 

If TPTB granted permission for this event I see that as the final word.

Link to post

all you people making jokes because he/she thinks its not fair well its not.

its not they can post but we cant , thats why this world sucks , its all about money ,money and more money!

soon there going to charge to post new listings !! we hold events to help the earth and have fun ,we dont charge a dime and yes we have raffles for free with stuff we buy from gs.com ! whats wrong with that !

 

The underlined statement you posted is both ignorant, and false. It appears you chose emotion versus logic. From the very beginning Jeremy Irish (founder of Geocaching.com) has pledged to never charge to go geocaching.

 

June 02, 2001

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I, Jeremy Irish, CEO of Grounded, Inc. will never make this a pay to play web site for Geocaching. It is in the best interest of all players that the game remain free and the non-commercial sharing of these coordinates through the web site.

 

It appears that this hobby that you find entertaining needs additional funding to exist. Without sponsors, we might not have such a cool website for a lifetime worth of entertainment.

 

QUOTE(Jeremy @ Jun 21 2007, 05:32 PM)

 

For the last 6 1/2 years, Geocaching.com has been relatively ad-free. With the exception of the ever present banner ad on the left-hand navigation bar, and the occasional promotion (like Jeep!) we have concentrated more on the creation of Premium Member content to help cover the ongoing costs of site maintenance , upgrades, and ever growing hardware and network costs.

 

As we have been moving into an extensive re-architecture of Geocaching.com to keep up with the ongoing traffic increases we have been faced with the reality that we need to raise more money. This will help us to create a permanent solution to the site slowdowns that have plagued us for so many years - aka our V.2 version of the web site.

 

We've been doing testing with the Guide to Purchasing a GPS unit page and have found that Google's ad serving technology is extremely well done. Of course! They're Google! And we feel that placing two unobtrusive (and surprisingly helpful) ads on the page will actually be something that folks wouldn't mind. The current plan is to only show them to users who aren't logged in or are not Premium Members - though once we add a feature for PMs to turn them off we'll add them for everyone (except, of course, those PMs that don't want them). The thought is that the ads will actually be useful on the page and not something that won't fit there.

 

In lieu of raising Premium Member fees we felt that the advertising would be a much easier "burden" on the geocaching community - and we hope - a beneficial one. So expect tweaks and changes to the ad campaigns as we test out new ways to display these ads to be the most effective - and least irritating.

Link to post

Noone is saying that it is not a solicitation. But Groundspeak granted permission for them to solicit. Do you understand that they may have a stake in allowing a multi-million dollar partner to solicit on the website, whereas allowing you to solicit for Joe's Steak Shack would not be allowed?

 

But if you are having an event and "Joe's Steak Shack" is sponsoring the event you should be able to say that. As long as you are not holding the event there and you do not have to buy there products its not a Solicitation, just a sponsor. Why is that not allowed?

 

Also you have stated my problem with the listing. If you have money and are a sponsor of GC you are granted special listing privilege to say what you want to.

 

(lets see if the Quote works this time)

Link to post

Noone is saying that it is not a solicitation. But Groundspeak granted permission for them to solicit. Do you understand that they may have a stake in allowing a multi-million dollar partner to solicit on the website, whereas allowing you to solicit for Joe's Steak Shack would not be allowed?

 

But if you are having an event and "Joe's Steak Shack" is sponsoring the event you should be able to say that. As long as you are not holding the event there and you do not have to buy there products its not a Solicitation, just a sponsor. Why is that not allowed?...

 

That my friend is an excellent question.

Link to post

Noone is saying that it is not a solicitation. But Groundspeak granted permission for them to solicit. Do you understand that they may have a stake in allowing a multi-million dollar partner to solicit on the website, whereas allowing you to solicit for Joe's Steak Shack would not be allowed?

 

But if you are having an event and "Joe's Steak Shack" is sponsoring the event you should be able to say that. As long as you are not holding the event there and you do not have to buy there products its not a Solicitation, just a sponsor. Why is that not allowed?

 

Also you have stated my problem with the listing. If you have money and are a sponsor of GC you are granted special listing privilege to say what you want to.

 

(lets see if the Quote works this time)

 

"Special Listing Privilege" - Yes, I suppose it boils down to that. I am still not sure where you've come up with the concept that everyone needs to have the same privilege.

 

-Jeremy et al probably have higher access when they log into the website than I do.. Is that fair?

-The forum moderators have more access to the forums than I do. Is that fair?

-Jeremy has more access than the forum moderators, is that fair?

-A police car can legally go 15mph over the speed limit, but I can't, is that fair?

-I have full admin rights to my work network, but others in the department don't. Is that fair?

 

I tell my kids this all the time.... Life is not fair. All things are not equal. Whoever told you this must have wanted something from you.

Link to post
"Special Listing Privilege" - Yes, I suppose it boils down to that. I am still not sure where you've come up with the concept that everyone needs to have the same privilege.

 

-Jeremy et al probably have higher access when they log into the website than I do.. Is that fair?

-The forum moderators have more access to the forums than I do. Is that fair?

-Jeremy has more access than the forum moderators, is that fair?

-A police car can legally go 15mph over the speed limit, but I can't, is that fair?

-I have full admin rights to my work network, but others in the department don't. Is that fair?

 

I tell my kids this all the time.... Life is not fair. All things are not equal. Whoever told you this must have wanted something from you.

 

1.) Yes

2.) Yes

3.) Yes

4.) Not in this state

5.) Yes. most likely you you fix problems in the network

6.) Yes. to keep something from me, or so I wouldn't get hurt.

 

But when I am told I am not allowed to list something because its against the "rules" and then to see something like this, I don't agree with it.

There are no Base Rules about listings, only Guidelines.

Yes I understand that GS has given permission to Delorme.

Does this mean that I shouldn't have any problems with anything I want to have listed on any event I want to hold if I send it to GS and not my reviewer?

Link to post

The problem is not blatant commercial listings. The guidelines are clear if you want a blatant commercial listing you have to contact geocaching.com directly and get permission in advance. Geocaching will approve blatant commercial listings if they see a benefit in doing so. The benefit might be a tangible benefit to Groundspeak, Inc. - e.g., the purchase of advertising space on Geocaching.com or agreeing to develop platforms for the Wherigo game. Or there may be intangible benefits - e.g. allowing geocachers limited rights to use the sponsor's copyrighted product in a challenge or puzzle cache or allowing placement of caches on the sponsor's property.

 

The problem with the guidelines are the non-blatant commercial listings. A geocacher wants to organize an event for other geocachers in his area. He can mention the restaurant where the event will be held. But can he include a link to restaurant's webpage? Can he put the restaurant's logo on the page? How about a picture of the restaurant? Suppose Joe's Sporting Goods donated some stuff for door prizes. Can he thank Joe's Sporting Goods on his page? Can he link to Joe's website? Can he link to a website that has additional information about the town or location where the even will be held? What if the website is non-commercial? Does having a few banner ads to support that site make a website commercial? Can the cache owner create his own page on a non-commercial site that contains links to the restaurant, Joe's, and the site with additional information?

 

Every day caches and events are submitted to the volunteer reviewers. The volunteers review them and determine if they are blatantly commercial and therefore need to be referred to Groundspeak for approval or if they can be approved by the reviewers without going to Groundspeak. The guidelines are flexible and some reviewers are may let things through that another reviewer wouldn't. Groundspeak participates in the reviewers' private forum where the guidelines are discussed. From time to time the reviewers get new direction on how to interpret the guidelines. Probably the guidance is only meant to try and get more consistency between reviewers but usually this means that something the your reviewer used to allow is now considered commercial. The problem is all this occurs out of sight of the general geocaching community.

 

Now people submit a cache fully expecting it to be approved and instead they get an email saying "Your cache has commercial content and therefore needs to be approved by Groundpeak." Of course they weren't trying to be blatantly commercial. So it comes as a shock when they are told only Groundspeak can approve your cache. Most would really like the reviewer to explain what part of their listing is unacceptable and how the can change it so the cache is approved. But some reviewers are interpreting the latest guidelines as saying "If you think there is something commercial on the page you should tell the cacher that it needs to be reviewed by Groundspeak. You can't tell them what you think is commercial or how they can change it so that it doesn't need Groundspeak approval." Because of this many people are interpreting the commercial guideline as unfair. If there are some limits that Groundspeak wants on thanking sponsors or providing information related to an event location they should post what these are in the guidelines. Then one can decide if you can live with a cache page that meets those guidelines or if you need to get permission from Groundspeak.

Edited by tozainamboku
Link to post

But if you are having an event and "Joe's Steak Shack" is sponsoring the event you should be able to say that. As long as you are not holding the event there and you do not have to buy there products its not a Solicitation, just a sponsor. Why is that not allowed?

 

I know the answer, however you won't like it;

 

Groundspeak does not make any money off that sponsorship. If you approach them ahead of time and they decide it is some benefit to either the hobby, GS, or maybe benefits a cause they deem worthy, they MAY make an exception however I would believe that to be rare for the example you gave (or medium rare as the case may be :P )

 

As a subscriber to Chicago Tribune, I have no expectation they will run an ad for my car for free. Heck, they even charge for obituaries. Essebtially, the $30 you pay for is the same thing, you just get a load more benefits than you would from the Trib.

Link to post

As a subscriber to Chicago Tribune, I have no expectation they will run an ad for my car for free. Heck, they even charge for obituaries.

 

I like that example. If the chicago tribune decided they were going to allow one of their sponsors to run free classified ads, how does that affect you?

 

Here's the question of the hour... What would you suggest Groundspeak do? Deny Delorme the event? Allow you to create any old commercial event you want? What's the solution you are looking for here?

Link to post

Your rules/guidelines need to be updated.

In fact, the most recent update to the listing guidelines is squarely on point to the subject of this thread. New language was added on February 20, 2008, as follows:

Groundspeak can promote Geocaching through events that may be an exception to the guidelines, if we deem that is necessary to further the game.

So, the publication of the event as an exception to the guidelines is something squarely contemplated by the current guidelines, and it's no secret.

 

Having a good relationship with companies like DeLorme definitely furthers the game. So do the "DeLorme Challenge" caches that are set up in nearly every state. I am the co-owner of one of those. I am grateful that Groundspeak gave an exception for THAT commercial cache, because it's a lot of fun for a lot of geocachers. It sounds like the upcoming CITO event will also be fun.

Edited by Keystone
Link to post

I don't see a thing wrong with the event cache listing.

 

It seems to have followed the listing guidelines exactly.

 

And the fact that explicit permission was granted for it was posted directly on the cache page. PERFECT! That way there should be no question that Groundspeak has okayed which follows the guidelines to the letter.

Link to post

1.) Edit the listing. Have any event listing follow the same rules, no matter what. Don't treat one event different then the other, sponsor or no sponsor.

 

2.) No not deny it, but follow the same guide lines everyone else does to have an event.

 

3.) Most events are not in any way commercial that I have seen, Most events however do get sponsors. Why can we not list them as say "special friends of the event"? This would apply for everyone not just me.

 

4.) What I am looking for is non special treatment on event cache listings.

There is enough special treatment in the government.

 

If you were able to get to an event, I would suggest going and talking to the event host and ask them about what goes into holding an event, or if you were able to host one of your own you will see first hand why I am a little upset about the whole Delorme listing. They get special treatment whereas you or I would not.

 

mtn-man, this is not an attack on R.O.N.

Link to post

1.) Edit the listing. Have any event listing follow the same rules, no matter what. Don't treat one event different then the other, sponsor or no sponsor.

 

2.) No not deny it, but follow the same guide lines everyone else does to have an event.

 

3.) Most events are not in any way commercial that I have seen, Most events however do get sponsors. Why can we not list them as say "special friends of the event"? This would apply for everyone not just me.

 

4.) What I am looking for is non special treatment on event cache listings.

There is enough special treatment in the government.

 

If you were able to get to an event, I would suggest going and talking to the event host and ask them about what goes into holding an event, or if you were able to host one of your own you will see first hand why I am a little upset about the whole Delorme listing. They get special treatment whereas you or I would not.

 

mtn-man, this is not an attack on R.O.N.

3.) Perhaps in your area "most" events have sponsors, but that's not true everywhere. I can only think of one event I've attended with a sponsor (and that was Garmin.)

Link to post

Keystone or mtn-man:

2 questions for you if you can answer them

 

1.) If the only way for a cacher to camp at the state forest that the WMG 2nd annual picnic is being held at, is to go to the Reserve America website, and not the state forest itself, how is that considered a commercial listing. There is no way around the R.A. website, if you want to stay the weekend at the event. I was told that the listing would not be published with that link in it, even after I explained that you needed to go through R.A. website for a campsite in the state forest to my reviewer.

Now if I understand correctly from GS guidelines and from other cachers, all I need to do is ask GS for the OK to list this link, since you need to go through them if you plan on spending the night?

 

2.) If I hold an event that will teach people about Geocaching, Can I say what store is helping us with the use of there facilities for the short amount of time that we will be indoors and then lending us there GPS units for the morning/day to find Caches that are in the park that they are on the edge of. I have talked to the owner of the business and he would realy like to see the event happen, They have promoted geocaching ever since they heard about it by hosting a non listed geocaching event every year. They are also a registered dealer for Garmin.

Do you think this would be approved since it promotes Geocaching in a positive light?

Link to post

As a subscriber to Chicago Tribune, I have no expectation they will run an ad for my car for free. Heck, they even charge for obituaries.

 

I like that example.

 

Actually, I don't like this example. :P

 

The Chicago Tribune is an example of a traditional supplier / consumer relationship. As such, you as a consumer buy their product, and they solely determine the content.

 

The geocaching.com website, in contrast, exists because the participants actively contribute the data that allows the site to offer something of value that brings people coming back (and thus enables the site owner to sell advertising). This is more akin to a "community" site such as ebay or facebook rather than an online merchant like amazon.com. In these community sites, the participants feel a much stronger sense of ownership or entitlement as is it only because of their contributions that the site exists at all. That's why people here on geocaching.com feel strongly about complaining when they interpret something as "not fair", and why it is frustrating to read responses like "if you don't like it, find your own sandbox to play in".

Link to post

This isn't a government. This is a business. Groundspeak has every right to make business decisions that can enhance their position within the business world. Partnering with companies that produce products that are a benefit to the community and the company make absolute perfect sense.

 

In fact, to help the community and the game, I would actually hope they would in fact be proactive about this. Sound business decisions that further the company are how you stay ahead of the competition and expand your business. I personally want Groundspeak to grow, so I applaud good business decisions. I know I enjoy the lack of lag on the weekends now. This doesn't come from shirt and coffee cup sales.

 

You do have the right to voice your dissent, but they have every right to make these decisions as they see fit..

 

DeLorme followed the guidelines to the letter. It is a CITO event, which they happen to be the worldwide sponsors for this year. We should be giving them high-fives for their support and not berating the one, single event that they went through proper channels to get listed.

 

In addition, if you notice, there is no huge group with you on this. So far, only one person agrees with you.

 

They asked for permission and were granted permission. Simple.

 

And please stop calling them rules. They are not rules. The word "rule" only appears once in the guidelines. In that instance, it talks specifically about flexibility in terms of the proximity guidelines being a "rule of thumb". They are not rules.

 

For your question number one... yes, ask permission.

For your question number two... most likely yes, but consult with Groundspeak first for permission.

Edited by mtn-man
Link to post

 

3.) Perhaps in your area "most" events have sponsors, but that's not true everywhere. I can only think of one event I've attended with a sponsor (and that was Garmin.)

 

My apologies, It should have read "some events"

 

I have been to only a few, and the event may get something from a local or national business that can be given away, or used at an event. This is considered in "MY" opinion as a sponsor.

If you get something that did not cost full price or it was free for the event to have, that should be given the OK to list. Most of the time you will not know this unless you ask the event host or the host says it under the guidelines now.

Link to post

Noone is saying that it is not a solicitation. But Groundspeak granted permission for them to solicit. Do you understand that they may have a stake in allowing a multi-million dollar partner to solicit on the website, whereas allowing you to solicit for Joe's Steak Shack would not be allowed?

 

But if you are having an event and "Joe's Steak Shack" is sponsoring the event you should be able to say that. As long as you are not holding the event there and you do not have to buy there products its not a Solicitation, just a sponsor. Why is that not allowed?...

 

That my friend is an excellent question.

It Implies approval by Groundspeak and by that, would Imply association with Groundspeak.

 

Some companies look for free advertising by association. For instance, Joe's Steakhouse is geocacher friendly and wants to be associated to the membership but doesn't want to pay for the advertising that goes with the increased income but would love to benefit by that association with Groundspeak's membership. The membership has value and Groundspeak has every right to protect that value and utilize it where they can.

Link to post

And please stop calling them rules. They are not rules. The word "rule" only appears once in the guidelines. In that instance, it talks specifically about flexibility in terms of the proximity guidelines being a "rule of thumb". They are not rules.

 

That's half of my argument about the Delorme listing, There are no rules only guidelines. Every reviewer can interpret any listing anyway they want to.

 

Example:

Joe Schmo is holding an event in la la land, and Ben Schmo sees what they are doing and wants to do the same thing.

He makes up the listing only to have it turned down because it is deemed commercial by his reviewer. Ben tells his reviewer that Joe is doing the same thing and that Joes reviewer said it was OK.

Bens reviewer tells him that every reviewer is different and his listing will not be published because every reviewer reads the "guidelines" differently.

 

My issue is Not Delorme or there sponsorship of Geocaching, but the listing and what it says.

Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...