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Please Keep Extraneous Materials out of Caches.

vaetanone
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Snoogans

+Snoogans

Posted
Posted

If you've seen it more times than we know,then I think you know the answer bud... <_<:D

 

That I do....I'm just looking for a good excuse to not close this thread. :D

I'm amazed you guys let 'er go this long.... :D

 

 

Why not? It has been very civil considering some of the subjects. :D

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vtmtnman

vtmtnman

Posted
Posted

If you've seen it more times than we know,then I think you know the answer bud... <_<:D

 

That I do....I'm just looking for a good excuse to not close this thread. :D

I'm amazed you guys let 'er go this long.... :D

 

 

Why not? It has been very civil considering some of the subjects. :D

I fully agree.

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ReadyOrNot

+ReadyOrNot

Posted
Posted

Well, best I can tell, everyone *thinks* they are right... But unfortunately, not everyone can be right. Although everyone can be wrong... For me to believe what I believe requires that anyone who does not believe what I believe to be wrong... For you to believe what you believe requires you to dismiss anyone that believes contrary to your beliefs.

 

What is tolerance then? Some of you folks make it sound like I must place equal consideration for all religions or I am not being "tolerant". I will "tolerate" other religions, but I must at my core disagree with them.

 

Why is it ok for atheists to belittle anyone that disagrees with them, but if I do it, i'm being "Intolerant"??

 

Sorry.. It's late, had to get some thoughts out.. GOOD NIGHT! <_<

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LivesWithMonkeys

+LivesWithMonkeys

Posted
Posted (edited)

"I submit to you that it IS in fact true that IF an atheist is offended by "God", it is patently ridiculous."

 

Atheists aren't offended by something they don't believe in. They aren't even offended, generally, by the idea. While I don't speak for everyone, I think Atheists tend to get offended when they are thought of less for not believing in God, for somehow seen as lesser agents in this world because they don't believe in the idea that so many people do.

I wouldn't necessarily call myself an atheist. Sometimes I think I am a Paranoid Agnostic ("I don't know if there's a God or not, but something up there is out to get me") and sometime I follow my as-yet unnamed montra - "I am willing to be open to the idea that there is a God but I am 99.999999% sure that all organized religions are full of cr@p".

 

One idea that sometimes pops into my head that I could see as something that might also offend an Athiest - Being offended by constant reminders that most of the race you belong to cannot:

Fully take responsibility for your own action (It was God's will)

Fully accept the consequences of their actions (Thus needing to be able to repent and be absolved)

To fully rejoice in their own accompishments (Id like to take the Lord for the goal I scored)

To just grasp the idea that it is natural for bad things happen(again It was God's will)

 

Perhaps Athiests might feel that humans are being held back as a race by the need to cling to this crutch.

That could be what sometimes offends them.

 

EDIT - After reading that, I guess civility might have gone out the windows. I only suggest that you good Christians be sure not to judge me based on this post.

Edited by LivesWithMonkeys
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The Leprechauns

+The Leprechauns

Posted
Posted

On a sidenote, has anyone ever opened a cache, seen a religious pamphlet, and thought, "Oh boy!"? Does anyone ever take these things? This isn't a religious attack, I'm just curious as if there is anyone out there who finds these cool things to find in a cache?

 

(PS: I would if there were unique ones, or Chick Tracts, which I find somewhat unique, if not a bit...eh)

If there's a huge pile of mass-produced pamphlets, and they're crowding the cache, I'll remove a bunch because it helps the cache. Ditto that for soggy pamphlets.

 

But if there's just two or three dry pamphlets, I'll read them at a minimum. If they're chintzy and unlikely to enlighten me, I'll put the pamphlet back in the cache. I have traded for some more substantive Christian reading materials, as well as other themed trade items like a nice crucifix necklace that my daughter found. And that's saying a lot, because generally I quit trading at caches a long time ago.

 

My process of reconnecting with God began at the site of a geocache in the woods. It's certainly not what I expected when I started this game, but it happened. So please don't assume that no purpose is served by placing religious materials in caches, or that such trade items are pointless.

 

There's no reason why religion and geocaching cannot exist side by side. Ditto that for sweet potatoes and geocaching.

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Kit Fox

+Kit Fox

Posted
Posted (edited)

Question: How does one worship Science? <_<

 

Here is one example of how pseudo-science is being worshipped.

 

Environmentalism as religion

 

Today, one of the most powerful religions in the Western World is environmentalism. Environmentalism seems to be the religion of choice for urban atheists. Why do I say it's a religion? Well, just look at the beliefs. If you look carefully, you see that environmentalism is in fact a perfect 21st century remapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths.

 

There's an initial Eden, a paradise, a state of grace and unity with nature, there's a fall from grace into a state of pollution as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge, and as a result of our actions there is a judgment day coming for us all. We are all energy sinners, doomed to die, unless we seek salvation, which is now called sustainability. Sustainability is salvation in the church of the environment. Just as organic food is its communion, that pesticide-free wafer that the right people with the right beliefs, imbibe.

 

Eden, the fall of man, the loss of grace, the coming doomsday---these are deeply held mythic structures. They are profoundly conservative beliefs. They may even be hard-wired in the brain, for all I know. I certainly don't want to talk anybody out of them, as I don't want to talk anybody out of a belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God who rose from the dead. But the reason I don't want to talk anybody out of these beliefs is that I know that I can't talk anybody out of them. These are not facts that can be argued. These are issues of faith.

 

And so it is, sadly, with environmentalism. Increasingly it seems facts aren't necessary, because the tenets of environmentalism are all about belief. It's about whether you are going to be a sinner, or saved. Whether you are going to be one of the people on the side of salvation, or on the side of doom. Whether you are going to be one of us, or one of them.

 

 

As for paper pamphlets, if you don't like them, trade them out. If someone stuffed your caches with them, remove them, how simple can it be?

Edited by Kit Fox
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Renegade Knight

+Renegade Knight

Posted
Posted

...One idea that sometimes pops into my head that I could see as something that might also offend an Athiest - Being offended by constant reminders that most of the race you belong to cannot:

Fully take responsibility for your own action (It was God's will)

Fully accept the consequences of their actions (Thus needing to be able to repent and be absolved)

To fully rejoice in their own accompishments (Id like to take the Lord for the goal I scored)

To just grasp the idea that it is natural for bad things happen(again It was God's will)

 

Perhaps Athiests might feel that humans are being held back as a race by the need to cling to this crutch.

That could be what sometimes offends them....

 

You can hang your hat on the fact that people from all sides of the fence and all varations of faith blame something else...

This is not a defining line between Atheists and Believers. The only difference is who people blame for their own actions (which they are responsible for).

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Totem Clan

+Totem Clan

Posted
Posted

Well, best I can tell, everyone *thinks* they are right... But unfortunately, not everyone can be right. Although everyone can be wrong... For me to believe what I believe requires that anyone who does not believe what I believe to be wrong... For you to believe what you believe requires you to dismiss anyone that believes contrary to your beliefs.

 

What is tolerance then? Some of you folks make it sound like I must place equal consideration for all religions or I am not being "tolerant". I will "tolerate" other religions, but I must at my core disagree with them.

 

Why is it ok for atheists to belittle anyone that disagrees with them, but if I do it, i'm being "Intolerant"??

 

Sorry.. It's late, had to get some thoughts out.. GOOD NIGHT! <_<

I think they are both being intolerant.

 

Yes you can believe what you believe and think that the other person is wrong without belittle or shunning them.

 

Believe what ever YOU want while letting others believe what ever THEY want.

 

And yes in all the bickering and posturing and lawsuits, there is enough blame to cover all sides up to their necks in carp.

 

Live and let live.

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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
Posted

I wonder if, in the entire history of religious tracts, anyone was ever legitimately converted by reading one? I mean, since we're bandying about the word "ridiculous", placing tracts with the hope that it will make a convert or win a place in heaven or whatever the justification is, that surely goes well beyond ridiculous, and into absurd.

I sincerely doubt it. Which I think speaks well to my point... tracts are pretty much worthless but harmless. So there is no need to fear them but no need to trade anything of real value for them either. Still, if they are in good condition and not "stuffing" the cache, and you are not the cache owner, removing them just "because" is bad form.

 

That would seem inaccurate given the number of lawsuits brought by alleged atheists against public religious symbol displays. They seem to always CLAIM to be offended.

 

It is exceedingly rare that lawsuits are brought regarding displays on private property. It is when these displays appear on public property that trouble follows. I suspect you're aware of the distinction, and simply chose to ignore it in the hopes that no one would catch on.

 

I find it offensive indeed when the Constitution is violated. I know a lot of people would like to do away with the establishment clause. I trust you're not among them?

I highlighted the word "public" so you might not MISS it this time. I said NOTHING about "lawsuits brought regarding displays on private property."

 

The "establisment clause" of the constitution says NOTHING about religious displays on public property. It concerns only CONGRESS MAKING LAWS regarding religion. The "separation of church and state" DOCTRINE, to which I agree for the most part, is a conglomeration of legal OPINIONS and court decisions regarding the subject of government OFFICIAL representation of religion. It is in short, a "legal fiction", which makes it more like a guideline than constitutional law.

 

In fact, the free expression of religion is guaranteed by the first amendment- IN PUBLIC.

 

I do believe the consensus of rulinngs presently is that anyone EXECPT A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE GOVERNMENT can say or display whatever they want in a public (government owned) place.

 

of course none of this applies to a cache which is by definition private property and thus is controlled by the owner as heshe sees fit.

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The Leprechauns

+The Leprechauns

Posted
Posted

I wonder if, in the entire history of religious tracts, anyone was ever legitimately converted by reading one? I mean, since we're bandying about the word "ridiculous", placing tracts with the hope that it will make a convert or win a place in heaven or whatever the justification is, that surely goes well beyond ridiculous, and into absurd.

I sincerely doubt it. Which I think speaks well to my point... tracts are pretty much worthless but harmless. So there is no need to fear them but no need to trade anything of real value for them either. Still, if they are in good condition and not "stuffing" the cache, and you are not the cache owner, removing them just "because" is bad form.

See my post above. My daughter and I have found several things, either trinkets or written material, which have helped us in our spiritual journeys. And that is a good thing.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't "converted" by a tacky Chick Tract. But other cache trade items have been helpful and perhaps different items that wouldn't be useful to me might be useful to someone else. So we are talking about just differences in quality, like a new vs. a used golfball, or a McToy in or out of the original wrapper, or a $4.00 compass from Wal-Mart vs. a Brunton from a sporting goods store.

 

The OP classifies ALL religious items as "extraneous" and I strongly disagree with this as religious items perceived by me to be of high quality are one of the few things I'll trade for. While the OP is welcome to remove them from his owned caches, removing an undamaged individual religious item from someone else's cache is at best inconsiderate and at worst stealing.

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ReadyOrNot

+ReadyOrNot

Posted
Posted

The "establisment clause" of the constitution says NOTHING about religious displays on public property. It concerns only CONGRESS MAKING LAWS regarding religion. The "separation of church and state" DOCTRINE, to which I agree for the most part, is a conglomeration of legal OPINIONS and court decisions regarding the subject of government OFFICIAL representation of religion. It is in short, a "legal fiction", which makes it more like a guideline than constitutional law.

 

You are right on! The constitution is amazingly clear on this issue. Congress is not to pass a law establishing or limiting the free exercise of religion in public and/or private settings. Even as a public employee, you are given a right to practice your religion in the public square, that includes judges, congressmen(women) and even the President. Society of certain segments of society would have you believe that it is illegal to practice religion in public. Amazing how lies become truth when they are told long enough and often enough.

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Too Tall John

+Too Tall John

Posted
Posted
I find this rather funny. Those that like it defend their right to do so but if someone places somthing anti in a cache they would have a fit.
Making a blanket statement about how people you've never met will react to a situation is at best inaccurate. :P

 

I HATE it when people tell me how I'm going to react to something, especially when they are WRONG. :)

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crtrue

crtrue

Posted
Posted

The "establisment clause" of the constitution says NOTHING about religious displays on public property. It concerns only CONGRESS MAKING LAWS regarding religion. The "separation of church and state" DOCTRINE, to which I agree for the most part, is a conglomeration of legal OPINIONS and court decisions regarding the subject of government OFFICIAL representation of religion. It is in short, a "legal fiction", which makes it more like a guideline than constitutional law.

 

You are right on! The constitution is amazingly clear on this issue. Congress is not to pass a law establishing or limiting the free exercise of religion in public and/or private settings. Even as a public employee, you are given a right to practice your religion in the public square, that includes judges, congressmen(women) and even the President. Society of certain segments of society would have you believe that it is illegal to practice religion in public. Amazing how lies become truth when they are told long enough and often enough.

 

I have nothing against the personal practice of religion. That should be up to the individual as to where, how, why, and when. But the issue here is the establishment of a law either for or against a belief -- in essence, the flipside of your argument. If you should be able to pray in a public circumstance and not be held against it legally, then I should be able to choose not to given the same circumstance.

 

On the same token, as the owner of a cache, you should be able to stock it with what you like, be it religious materials or the like. I should also be allowed to remove those same things from my cache without being looked down upon. The only real ethical argument at play is when I start removing pamphlets from your caches or you start putting them in mine :P

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DudleyGrunt

+DudleyGrunt

Posted
Posted (edited)

I find this rather funny. Those that like it defend their right to do so but if someone places somthing anti in a cache they would have a fit.

To Shadow's and others that have posted similar statements, can you point me to the topics posted by Christian cachers complaining about the placement of non-Christian religious items in caches.

 

Whenever I see these topics, it seems to be predominately people complaining about Christian items being left in caches.

 

* * *

BTW, I have frequently left Christian tokens, crosses and such in chaches and have appreciated some similar items I've found from time to time. I don't leave them to convert anyone, but for fellow Christians (or others) who might appreciate them.

 

Whatever happened to the OP? Interesting that I haven't seen any responses from him/her. In addition to polling folks about why we read the forums (info vs. entertainment), maybe we should poll folks as to why they start topics.

 

[edit for a typo]

Edited by DudleyGrunt
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crtrue

crtrue

Posted
Posted

Question: How does one worship Science? :P

 

Here is one example of how pseudo-science is being worshipped.

 

Environmentalism as religion

 

Today, one of the most powerful religions in the Western World is environmentalism. Environmentalism seems to be the religion of choice for urban atheists. Why do I say it's a religion? Well, just look at the beliefs. If you look carefully, you see that environmentalism is in fact a perfect 21st century remapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths.

 

There's an initial Eden, a paradise, a state of grace and unity with nature, there's a fall from grace into a state of pollution as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge, and as a result of our actions there is a judgment day coming for us all. We are all energy sinners, doomed to die, unless we seek salvation, which is now called sustainability. Sustainability is salvation in the church of the environment. Just as organic food is its communion, that pesticide-free wafer that the right people with the right beliefs, imbibe.

 

Eden, the fall of man, the loss of grace, the coming doomsday---these are deeply held mythic structures. They are profoundly conservative beliefs. They may even be hard-wired in the brain, for all I know. I certainly don't want to talk anybody out of them, as I don't want to talk anybody out of a belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God who rose from the dead. But the reason I don't want to talk anybody out of these beliefs is that I know that I can't talk anybody out of them. These are not facts that can be argued. These are issues of faith.

 

And so it is, sadly, with environmentalism. Increasingly it seems facts aren't necessary, because the tenets of environmentalism are all about belief. It's about whether you are going to be a sinner, or saved. Whether you are going to be one of the people on the side of salvation, or on the side of doom. Whether you are going to be one of us, or one of them.

 

 

Off-topic, just maybe?

 

Seriously, comparing environmentalism to basic faith doesn't take into account that "environmentalist" is essentially a blanket term for several types of people.

 

First, there are those who have a love of nature and get ill seeing developers run over their favorite spot of woody private land for a condo. They tend to see things in a very "Gaia Versus the Corporate Machine" way, very Biblical, very, as you say, Judeo-Christian.

 

However, there are others. For example, there are people who seek to protect large swafts of land and disagree with the idea that just because your great-uncle came here before anyone else, that you should be allowed to club endangered animals on your land simply because they were there / are worth something to someone else more dead than alive.

 

There are also people who see things in the bigger picture, or at least attempt to. These are the people who generally acknowledge global warming as an immediate threat and strive for reduced emissions, carbon caps, et cetera. These are people often attacked as "unscientific" or worse (prying off of people's fears), when the reality is that it is people's attitudes on what they can and cannot do that are being challenged. People don't like to think of this planet as finite in resources and that we may very well be impacting it (in actuality, I really don't understand the hatred towards the idea of global warming outside of people who don't like to see environmentalists be right on much of anything).

 

To put this straight, remember that a lot of hunters are environmentalists, too. There is no such thing as "the religion of Environmentalism". Just a lot of groupspeak from the ground troops. Just like any other large political movement. Ever.

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crtrue

crtrue

Posted
Posted

BTW, I have frequently left Christian tokens, crosses and such in chaches and have appreciated some similar items I've found from time to time. I don't leave them to convert anyone, but for fellow Christians (or others) who might appreciate them.

 

I have nothing against finding a cross or the like in a cache. I'm an Atheist, not a vampire -- it does not physically hurt me to find something like that, nor does it bother me in the least.

 

I'm just not a fan of blatant advertising, either for a business, an ideology, or a religion. I don't feel it works and that it doesn't offer a balanced opinion on the subject to the reader.

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ReadyOrNot

+ReadyOrNot

Posted
Posted

BTW, I have frequently left Christian tokens, crosses and such in chaches and have appreciated some similar items I've found from time to time. I don't leave them to convert anyone, but for fellow Christians (or others) who might appreciate them.

 

I have nothing against finding a cross or the like in a cache. I'm an Atheist, not a vampire -- it does not physically hurt me to find something like that, nor does it bother me in the least.

 

I'm just not a fan of blatant advertising, either for a business, an ideology, or a religion. I don't feel it works and that it doesn't offer a balanced opinion on the subject to the reader.

 

Your religion gets pushed on kids from the moment they start elementary school. Talk about BLATANT. You are not a fan, unless it's YOUR religion that's being pushed. Your sitting on your atheist high horse thinking you have all the answers.. I have all the answers actually.. And anyone else in this forum probably has all the answers too.. What makes you so special?

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crtrue

crtrue

Posted
Posted

BTW, I have frequently left Christian tokens, crosses and such in chaches and have appreciated some similar items I've found from time to time. I don't leave them to convert anyone, but for fellow Christians (or others) who might appreciate them.

 

I have nothing against finding a cross or the like in a cache. I'm an Atheist, not a vampire -- it does not physically hurt me to find something like that, nor does it bother me in the least.

 

I'm just not a fan of blatant advertising, either for a business, an ideology, or a religion. I don't feel it works and that it doesn't offer a balanced opinion on the subject to the reader.

 

Your religion gets pushed on kids from the moment they start elementary school. Talk about BLATANT. You are not a fan, unless it's YOUR religion that's being pushed. Your sitting on your atheist high horse thinking you have all the answers.. I have all the answers actually.. And anyone else in this forum probably has all the answers too.. What makes you so special?

 

First off, Atheism is the disbelief in God. Evolutionary theory is the belief in a common descent for all species from previous species. These are not the same things.

 

Nor are either of these "religions". I do not understand how you equate "theory" with "belief". Do atoms not exist, then? Atomic "theory" and all.

 

Evolution is there to put things together from what we've found. Darwin observed similar patterns in animals and postulated a theory. The fossil record seems to support this theory. Thus it dominates the classroom.

 

Bring me evidence of the alternative and I will go along. It's not that I don't like your religion, but if you're going to insist that something is wrong scientifically for reasons other than science, then your line of thinking is inconsistent with science in general and has no place in a classroom.

 

PS: Because I don't think people should be placing religious pamphlets in caches, I'm on a high horse? How about the person who feels he should intersperse a generally middle-ground, let's-get-along kind of game with religious rhetoric and conversion texts and then gets offended when someone removes them?

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crtrue

crtrue

Posted
Posted

I just thought I'd post something off topic to this thread, since I didn't read the original posting or any of the replies. :P

 

Nudecacher

 

I went to your profile and my first thought was "OMG that's my old art teacher". I did a second glance and realized otherwise.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the post, but I think what you're doing is amazing :)

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ReadyOrNot

+ReadyOrNot

Posted
Posted

Bring me evidence of the alternative and I will go along. It's not that I don't like your religion, but if you're going to insist that something is wrong scientifically for reasons other than science, then your line of thinking is inconsistent with science in general and has no place in a classroom.

 

I'm not pushing my religion down your throat, you are trying to push yours down mine. What is scientifically wrong with evolution is that it is not science. NEVER has evolution been demonstrated in a laboratory. Just that fact alone proves that it is nothing more than speculation and theory... NO different than my belief in God. I've never met an atheist who did not believe in the evolution religion, why? Because evolution is your god.

 

You hide behind fake "Science".. You even called it what it was, a theory.. Intelligent Design is a theory, just as evolution is a theory. Both have arguments that are intruiging. Both should be taught in school. How arrogant of you to only include your religion and not others.

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ReadyOrNot

+ReadyOrNot

Posted
Posted

Evolution is there to put things together from what we've found. Darwin observed similar patterns in animals and postulated a theory. The fossil record seems to support this theory. Thus it dominates the classroom.

 

Similar patterns in animals is also consistent with "Common Designer". It's all a matter of perspective. The fossil record supports evolution? The fossil record is amazingly absent of evidence of transitions between species.

 

I really don't want to get into this debate though.. My point is that it IS DEBATABLE. You are not sitting on a stack of facts, you are sitting on theories just like me.. We are in the same boat, yet you don't acknowledge that fact.

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Neos2

Neos2

Posted
Posted

NEVER has evolution been demonstrated in a laboratory. Just that fact alone proves that it is nothing more than speculation and theory...

Um, no, that isn't true--Did you ever read that thread you started in off-topic?

 

Where in the world did you get the idea that you have to replicate something in a laboratory to prove that it's true? Science doesn't attempt to "prove that things are true" science examines evidence to see how well it explains the logic of the explanations we have for how things work.

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Neos2

Neos2

Posted
Posted

And I ought to say that I'm sorry that I let myself get sidetracked again...I just can't seem to help myself when I see the same old drivel being trotted out and spewed to innocent victims. I wish that people who really want to seriously debate science theory would at least take the time to learn what science really says and how is is actuall done.

 

As far as finding religious tracts in caches...well, I don't appreciate anyone loading up any cache with anything that pushes an agenda. I wouldn't want to find a stack of someone's business cards, a stack of tracts, a stack of flyers for time-share condominiums, or anything else that is trying to sell me on something. A cache just isn't the place for things like that, and I don't think any of us would really try to argue otherwise.

 

That isn't the same thing at all as leaving one or two nice trinkets, adorable icons, collectible items--even with some theme. Items that are probably acceptable to most of us include things like a lighthouse pin with the message to let your light shine, a folding fan with an image of a stained glass window, an inkpen with your company logo, an "art" quality button with a photo of a mosque, etc. With that sort of thing, you might appreciate the item for it's practical value, you may even find that you become curious about the message behind the item--but you won't feel like you've just been accosted by a phantom snake-oil salesman.

 

If you ever visit one of my caches and find them full of religious tracts or a stack of someone's business cards etc, feel free to use them for fire kindling.

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CYBret

+CYBret

Posted
Posted

A casual scan of this page turned up only 4 passing references to geocaching. So, I'm guessing the light at the end of the tunnel is pretty much extinguished.

 

Please take the religion/science debate to an appropriate forum.

 

Closing this one down before I head to work.

 

Bret

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