Precise Definition of FTF?

[+VerySmartGirl]

1st post for an ocassional lurker.

 

If two teams with individual accounts arrive at a new cache simultaneously, are they both FTF?

 

If two teams set out together for a new cache are they both FTF is they work together?

 

Silly technical point but curious on what others think!

[+StarBrand]

First to get there and find the thing whether as a team or individual or multi accounts or whatever - is FTF IMHO.

[+D@nim@l]

You seem like a VerySmartGirl, what would you say?

[+emurock]

1st post for an ocassional lurker.

 

If two teams with individual accounts arrive at a new cache simultaneously, are they both FTF?

 

If two teams set out together for a new cache are they both FTF is they work together?

 

Silly technical point but curious on what others think!

An answer to the first question: is that I don't think that will append.

An answer to the second question: is yes they will get the FTF if they work together.

But that's just want I think.

[+Cardinal Red]

FTF is not an official Groundspeak designation. It is a personal accomplishment prized by many Geocachers for their own individual reasons. Of course this honor can be shared by more than one Cacher/Group under the circumstances you describe. But lets not pretend there is any kind of codified rule about this. Ultimately it's just a find. No different than any other find. Added emphasis to the significance of a FTF is all in your mind.

[+Renegade Knight]

First to Find is First to Find.

 

Some teams may vary in how they do it but this is how we tend to do it.

 

First to Spot the Cache is FTF. Logging it, opening it, etc. has nothing to do with it. It's the honor of actually spotting the cache before your buddies.

 

Most of the time this really doesn't matter and we all log as FTF as a group. However if there is an FTF prize the First to Spot has first dibs.

[+Klatch]

1st post for an ocassional lurker.

 

If two teams with individual accounts arrive at a new cache simultaneously, are they both FTF?

 

If two teams set out together for a new cache are they both FTF is they work together?

 

Silly technical point but curious on what others think!

Somebody will spot the cache first. If two people would happen to spot it simultaneously, there could be co-FTF's.

[Trinity's Crew]

VerySmartGirl... hmmm... where have I heard that name before?

 

Welcome to the forums!

 

Question One: If two teams (or individuals) independently arrive at the cache site and don't team up then the FTF should go to whomever finds it first.

 

Question 2: If teams (or individuals) decide to collaborate for whatever reason, sharing FTF bragging rights seems like the way to go.

 

Just my opinion. You'll find that the forums are full of them and we're not afraid to share them. Have fun!

[+cerberus1]

Picture we're standing side-by-side, maybe almost "touching" close.

Both of us have have a flat rock in front of us.

If the rock YOU lift has the cache under it, you're FTF. Period.

I'd be STF.

If I find a cache first, working with another who really "pushes" me to look longing or further than I normally would (you know, those 40+ feet away hides) , than I claim the find SHARED and do not add it to our total.

We NEVER count "shared" finds on our FTF count. Though we know of some who do.

I don't think that's fair to the person who actually found it, especially if it's their first FTF.

We currently have 152 FTFs, all found by us.

[+RockyRaab]

I doubt that any real FTF addict would ever cache other than alone. If it matters to anyone on the team, then have an agreement that you won't search for new listings as a team. If it doesn't matter, well then, it doesn't matter.

 

BTW, because by common agreement among cachers, a "find" only counts if there's a log entry; the FTF is therefore the registered cacher who makes the first log entry.

[+Renegade Knight]

....BTW, because by common agreement among cachers, a "find" only counts if there's a log entry; the FTF is therefore the registered cacher who makes the first log entry.

 

There is no such common agreement. The find counts if they forgot to log it and have to go back. The find counts if they are not registered. The find counts if they have their couson log it because they forgot. The find counts if they logged second but found it first. The find counts if they found the cache and there is no log book. The find counts for situations that I can't even think up just now.

[+sbell111]

1st post for an ocassional lurker.

 

If two teams with individual accounts arrive at a new cache simultaneously, are they both FTF?

Yes. If they both spotted the cache at the same time, they are both FTF.

If two teams set out together for a new cache are they both FTF is they work together?

Not in my opinion. The individual (or team, if using team accounts) who spots the cache first would be FTF.

[Trinity's Crew]

If two strangers arrive at a cache site and search independently, then the cacher who first spots the cache is rightfully the FTF. However, if you render said cacher unconscious, and this part is very important, BEFORE they sign the log, then I think it's okay for YOU to claim FTF.

 

Now that I think about it, this method would also work for people who are collaborating.

 

Actually, as you can see from the posts the answers vary widely from cacher to cacher. People who usually hunt with others are more likely to advocate sharing FTF status, while solitary cachers are more likely to view FTF something that only the actual finder can lay claim to.

 

Work it out up front. Ask the other cacher(s) how they want to handle it. Most of all, have fun!

[+welch]

FTF is not an official Groundspeak designation. It is a personal accomplishment prized by many Geocachers for their own individual reasons. Of course this honor can be shared by more than one Cacher/Group under the circumstances you describe. But lets not pretend there is any kind of codified rule about this. Ultimately it's just a find. No different than any other find. Added emphasis to the significance of a FTF is all in your mind.

Exactly. Which explains why FTF means different things to different people.

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

I'm pretty serious about FTFs.

 

It really depends who you're caching with. Some folks are very competitive cachers wouldn't share a FTF if their life depended on it. Others, like me, just love to share. And I've even been know to back off from the hunt and let another cacher grab a solo FTF (if it's their first FTF or if it's their child's hide).

 

That beeing said, I'm with Trinity's Crew- "Work it out up front. Ask the other cacher(s) how they want to handle it. Most of all, have fun!".

 

After all, it's just a game.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

I write about my obsession- "Tales from the FTF Trail"

[+Mudfrog]

First to Find is First to Find.

 

Some teams may vary in how they do it but this is how we tend to do it.

 

First to Spot the Cache is FTF. Logging it, opening it, etc. has nothing to do with it. It's the honor of actually spotting the cache before your buddies.

 

Most of the time this really doesn't matter and we all log as FTF as a group. However if there is an FTF prize the First to Spot has first dibs.

 

Couldn't have said it better!

[+briansnat]

FTF is the first person to find the cache.

 

If I arrived at the same time as another geocacher and we searched together and he found the cache first, I would congratulate him for his FTF.

 

If we searched together and I found it first I would celebrate our co-FTF.

[+RockyRaab]

....BTW, because by common agreement among cachers, a "find" only counts if there's a log entry; the FTF is therefore the registered cacher who makes the first log entry.

 

There is no such common agreement. The find counts if they forgot to log it and have to go back. The find counts if they are not registered. The find counts if they have their couson log it because they forgot. The find counts if they logged second but found it first. The find counts if they found the cache and there is no log book. The find counts for situations that I can't even think up just now.

 

So, it's a find if I see where I think the cache might be, but don't actually lay hands on it? Is it a find if I just claim I found it? Is a find if I just go to geocaching.com and fill in logs for every cache page I can scroll to?

 

Don't think so.

 

Search and you'll find bazillions of posts in this very forum where people have adamantly said, "No log entry - no find." I call that a common agreement, and rest my case on that point.

[+sbell111]

....BTW, because by common agreement among cachers, a "find" only counts if there's a log entry; the FTF is therefore the registered cacher who makes the first log entry.

There is no such common agreement. The find counts if they forgot to log it and have to go back. The find counts if they are not registered. The find counts if they have their couson log it because they forgot. The find counts if they logged second but found it first. The find counts if they found the cache and there is no log book. The find counts for situations that I can't even think up just now.

So, it's a find if I see where I think the cache might be, but don't actually lay hands on it? Is it a find if I just claim I found it? Is a find if I just go to geocaching.com and fill in logs for every cache page I can scroll to?

 

Don't think so.

 

Search and you'll find bazillions of posts in this very forum where people have adamantly said, "No log entry - no find." I call that a common agreement, and rest my case on that point.

... I bet those posts are in threads about that issue, not this one.

[+Renegade Knight]

....BTW, because by common agreement among cachers, a "find" only counts if there's a log entry; the FTF is therefore the registered cacher who makes the first log entry.

 

There is no such common agreement. The find counts if they forgot to log it and have to go back. The find counts if they are not registered. The find counts if they have their couson log it because they forgot. The find counts if they logged second but found it first. The find counts if they found the cache and there is no log book. The find counts for situations that I can't even think up just now.

 

So, it's a find if I see where I think the cache might be, but don't actually lay hands on it? Is it a find if I just claim I found it? Is a find if I just go to geocaching.com and fill in logs for every cache page I can scroll to?

 

Don't think so.

 

Search and you'll find bazillions of posts in this very forum where people have adamantly said, "No log entry - no find." I call that a common agreement, and rest my case on that point.

You will also find the accepted exceptions. In my group we treat the logbook like a hot potato. The person who signs it for everone is the one who lost the game. Thus FTF and First log can be different. If the log is missing, virtually everone says it's ok to show you were there by some alternate means. A lot also really don't care much about what those means are. Plus on a virtual there is no log but there is an FTF. And so on.

 

There is no common agreement as you may think.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

I've been a part of a few shared FTFs - prior to finding we have agreed to search together and share the FTF, regardless of who finds.

 

If we don't agree to share, then it's the person to first RETRIEVE the cache. Merely being first to see the cache is sometimes difficult to determine, and if it is a cache that is easy to spot but very difficult to get to (i.e high in a tree), then being the first to see it is meaningless.

 

We much prefer sharing the FTF.

[+Mudfrog]

....BTW, because by common agreement among cachers, a "find" only counts if there's a log entry; the FTF is therefore the registered cacher who makes the first log entry.

 

There is no such common agreement. The find counts if they forgot to log it and have to go back. The find counts if they are not registered. The find counts if they have their couson log it because they forgot. The find counts if they logged second but found it first. The find counts if they found the cache and there is no log book. The find counts for situations that I can't even think up just now.

 

So, it's a find if I see where I think the cache might be, but don't actually lay hands on it? Is it a find if I just claim I found it? Is a find if I just go to geocaching.com and fill in logs for every cache page I can scroll to?

 

Don't think so.

 

Search and you'll find bazillions of posts in this very forum where people have adamantly said, "No log entry - no find." I call that a common agreement, and rest my case on that point.

 

A FTF is not the same thing as logging a find online. The FTF comes about when a person or team spots the cache first, before anyone else. The common agreement you speak of is that a lot, if not most, cachers feel that signing the physical logbook is a must before claiming the find online.

 

Edited to add: Now that i read that, i see that it could be confusing since some would say that if a person didn't sign the logbook then it wouldn't be a legitimate find and therefore couldn't be an FTF. But i still feel we are talking two different things anyways. Finding, spotting the cache first is something that happens and can't be changed. Doesn't matter if a person signs the log or not, they were still first to find.

Edited March 24, 2007 by Mudfrog

[+Renegade Knight]

....Edited to add: Now that i read that, i see that it could be confusing since some would say that if a person didn't sign the logbook then it wouldn't be a legitimate find and therefore couldn't be an FTF. But i still feel we are talking two different things anyways. Finding, spotting the cache first is something that happens and can't be changed. Doesn't matter if a person signs the log or not, they were still first to find.

After I posted I started thinking along the same lines as what you just typed out. It is confusing. Signing the log book is the verification that you found the cache.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

It really depends who you're caching with. Some folks are very competitive cachers wouldn't share a FTF if their life depended on it. Others, like me, just love to share. And I've even been know to back off from the hunt and let another cacher grab a solo FTF (if it's their first FTF or if it's their child's hide).

 

Sounds like a good assessment.

 

Everyone's different. Sometimes we arrive at a scene at the same time as someone else and find it first, but we couldn't share the FTF with the other cacher to save our lives. They just won't accept it. Sometimes they will accept it if we offer it. Sometimes they'll claim it with us without even asking if we want to share the designation. Bottom line: keep an open mind about it so you don't get into a fight about it.

[+Sagefox]

So, it's a find if I see where I think the cache might be, but don't actually lay hands on it? Is it a find if I just claim I found it? Is a find if I just go to geocaching.com and fill in logs for every cache page I can scroll to?

 

How did you get to these conclusions from what RK said? They are quite different than what was actually said.

 

Search and you'll find bazillions of posts in this very forum where people have adamantly said, "No log entry - no find." I call that a common agreement, and rest my case on that point.

 

I recall an equal bazillions of posts that say that if you find the physical cache you found the cache. It is a physical action. Signing the log is done to verify that you were there. Signing the log is not “finding” the cache.

 

Your “common agreement“ is a description of a popular hard-line philosophy frequently found here but quite uncommon in real-world geocaching.

 

Each cache owner has the option to determine from the cache page log, or from the logs of other caches, or email communication with the Found It logger, that a non-signing cacher actually did visit the cache. Unless it is very clear that a Found It log is bogus an reasonable cache owner will do some research before they hit the delete button.

[+VO2WW]

First to Find is First to Find!!!!!

 

Some pairs or teams may vary in how they do it but this is how I tend to do it.

 

First to Spot the Cache is 'normally' FTF. Logging it, opening it, etc. has nothing to do with it. It's the honor of actually spotting the cache before your buddy.

 

Most of the time this really doesn't matter to me as we have decided how/who to log as FTF. However if there is an FTF prize the First to Spot has first dibs. Just how I play the game

[+S Keillan]

First-to-find, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. That is, it is however the person defines it, and people can have have differing opinions on who an FTF is, even among the first finders.

 

A good example might be where three people with different accounts work together to locate the cache, which is being found for the first time. In general, one person will see the cache before the other two. Rightfully, that person is a first finder. One of that person's caching partners declares a co-FTF, while the other doesn't. In my opinion, all three are correct in their opinions. Still further, the cache owner might have his or her opinion!

 

Even then, the waters become murky when one considers a multi-cache or a puzzle cache. Various stages of a multi might have different first finders. One person might solve a puzzle first, but another spots the cache first. Again, it all comes down to viewpoints.

 

My usual paradigm is I count myself in a co-FTF situation when I list mine, meaning that I share the honours even if I spot it first. As a cache hider, I will also consider a group to be co-FTFs as well. I see it as a more honourable solution than what happened on a recent hide of mine, where there were reports of biting and other physical activity in an insane race to locate the cache.

 

Probably the only real concern is if there is a first-finder prize. I suspect that is something that the group involved works out for themselves. Again, one's mileage may vary.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

First to Find is First to Find.

 

Some teams may vary in how they do it but this is how we tend to do it.

 

First to Spot the Cache is FTF. Logging it, opening it, etc. has nothing to do with it. It's the honor of actually spotting the cache before your buddies.

 

Most of the time this really doesn't matter and we all log as FTF as a group. However if there is an FTF prize the First to Spot has first dibs.

 

What he said.

[+moose_is_loose]

My question is a matter of acounting. I personnally don't care because I don't really keep track of those numbers but some do and got very defensive about the whole topic !

 

If 2 cachers share the FTF should it be counted as 1/2 FTF ???

 

We have had a heated discussion over @ SJG and no one answered my Q there ! How about here ???

[+Frodo_Underhill]

Here is another twist on the question.

 

There are some cachers who play the game in the background and they neither sign the logs nor log on geocaching.com. In this situation how do you ever know your were first and not beaten by one of these "ghosts"?

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

One of the sillier rituals around my area regard FTF. Folks will claim "Co-FTF", and "STF" and even "Co-STF"

 

I've been tempted to log a "Co-TwelthTF" on a cache.

 

I don't even claim the "FTF" when I am "FTF". Guess I just don't get the sport in it.

 

But if you want to get all technical about it, I think FTF should go to the first to find the cache.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I just went out and got two FTF's this morning (thank-you, thank-you very much ). In my frenzy to get there, I ran out of the house without my cache bag, that wouldn't usually be a problem except that this morning, I decided to take the motorcycle (YES, in 40 degree temps and I did get caught in rain and sleet). When I got to the cache, there wasn't a pen(cil) (micro)...my find doesn't count because I didn't sign the logbook?? BS!!!

 

I often don't sign logbooks of very small micros (which both of these were...almost a nano, but not quite)...unrolling a miniature scrap of paper? My hands don't work like that (arthritis). I would have signed the logbooks in both of these had I had a pen or even one of our stickers, I did unroll both to check as to being FTF! I also left fingerprints as it had just rained (darned hard too), and I had been searching, getting my hands dirty!

 

FTF is the one that gets the cache first! If there are multiple cachers, work out how to handle the FTF, I usually cache with a team, so we share FTF's (I'm the only one that has an account though). I also agree that first to physically find has the first dibs on trade goodies!!

[+SGT red jeep]

I cache a lot with my two daughters (14 and 17) and my father-in-law. We all have our own log-in names and post our own finds. Between the four of us, we have 3 GPSes but normally only use two. As we near the cache location the two GPS holders, usually my father-in-law and I, will call off the number of feet to ground zero. We travel in one car, share GPSes, print out one cache page, and generally work together like a team.... but share FTF?

Are you kidding? :

Are you utterly insane?

Share FTF?

Now why would we want to do something like that?

In the world of micros, of caches that take you to nowhere, of caches with contents of garbage, of lame caches, the competition to beat the others in our group (not team) to the cache can be fierce. We may work together but part of the excitement is in the competition. The disappointment of the actual cache is overshadowed by our 'friendly' contest.

If the cache hasn't been found by anyone yet, that ups the level of play.

Who ever spots the cache first gets FTF and bragging rights. Watching my 14 year old daughter doing her victory dance can be bitter-sweet.

But...... that's just us.

 

my opinion

FTF = First to Find

[+Trucker Lee]

First to Find is First to Find.

 

First to Spot the Cache is FTF. Logging it, opening it, etc. has nothing to do with it. It's the honor of actually spotting the cache before your buddies.

 

 

what he said!

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

First to Find is First to Find.

 

First to Spot the Cache is FTF. Logging it, opening it, etc. has nothing to do with it. It's the honor of actually spotting the cache before your buddies.

 

 

what he said!

What if the cache is in plain view 30 feet up in a tree, and the cache requirements state that you must retrieve the cache to log it as a find. Is the first person to spot the cache really the FTF?

[+Sagefox]

What if the cache is in plain view 30 feet up in a tree, and the cache requirements state that you must retrieve the cache to log it as a find. Is the first person to spot the cache really the FTF?

 

Alas. one rule seldom covers all situations. Common sense is used to deal with this situation.

[+Too Tall John]

Picture we're standing side-by-side, maybe almost "touching" close.

Both of us have have a flat rock in front of us.

If the rock YOU lift has the cache under it, you're FTF. Period.

I'd be STF.

If I find a cache first, working with another who really "pushes" me to look longing or further than I normally would (you know, those 40+ feet away hides) , than I claim the find SHARED and do not add it to our total.

We NEVER count "shared" finds on our FTF count. Though we know of some who do.

I don't think that's fair to the person who actually found it, especially if it's their first FTF.

We currently have 152 FTFs, all found by us.

 

Let's say that as you lift the rocks your view of what is under the rock you are holding is blocked, but your fellow cacher can see, and vice versa. Since by your actions, they saw the cache first, what happens then?

 

Silliness, I tell you. All silliness.

[+Super_Nate]

If you were to look at my profile, I have a section of caches that I have FTF on. Under that section, I have 4 or 5 caches that I have been FTF on with a group. I don't claim them by myself, but they are all on there.

[+Grunriese]

FTF is one of those things that doesn't really exist in the rules, but everyone recognizes anyway, like putting $500 on Free Parking in Monopoly as a "First To Land" prize. Since GC doesn’t keep track of FTFs, but many individuals do, it becomes a personal thing until someone claims "I have more FTFs than you do."

 

Personally, when caching with others, I think of it this way – if there's an FTF prize of $100 in the cache, would I feel compelled to share it with anyone? Would anyone else have a claim on a share? What did they contribute to the find (other than keeping me company)?

 

My boss used to say "Opinions are like butts – everyone has one, and they all stink." That said, I present “Grünriese’s FTF Guidelines,” my personal guidelines for claiming an FTF (where a "cacher" is a single person or a team sharing the same account; a "finder" is the first cacher to spot the cache; and a "retriever" is the person who first lays hands on the cache).

 

1. For simple caches (not multis), someone usually finds and physically retrieves the cache first – so no shared FTF.

2. If a multi, and another cacher finds at least one of the stages, it's a shared FTF for those who found one or more stages.

3. If for any reason the finder requires the assistance of a retriever, it's a shared FTF.

4. If, by prior agreement, two or more cachers team up and agree to split the effort (e.g., one paddles the boat, one solves the puzzle, one climbs the tree, etc.), it's a shared FTF (the key here is that one cacher would not have found the cache – on this search – if not for the help of his co-FTF cachers).

5. Merely assisting in a search does not justify a shared FTF, even if the first to find feels generous. FTFs are earned, not gifted.

6. Two cachers who spot the cache simultaneously (e.g., an exposed cache or a very obvious hide) should share the FTF rather than argue who spotted it first or making it a race, pushing & shoving, to the cache. Hopefully, this is by mutual agreement.

7. FTF must sign the log to prove he was there. If you can't (e.g., no log, no pen, etc.), then leave something unique behind or make some kind of mark and note it in your posting as proof you were there. You can't prove someone wasn't there, you can only prove you were there. No log entry/mark/token/photo/etc., no find.

8. If someone else signed the cache logbook before you, you are not FTF, even if the first person never posts the find or doesn't have an account.

9. No fractional FTFs – each shared FTF counts as one.

10. The cache owner is the final arbiter for contested FTFs, but hopefully it never goes that far, and folks don't take the game that seriously. Remember, it is just a game.

 

There are no FTF Police, so police yourself, and have fun.

[+Renegade Knight]

First to Find is First to Find.

 

First to Spot the Cache is FTF. Logging it, opening it, etc. has nothing to do with it. It's the honor of actually spotting the cache before your buddies.

 

 

what he said!

What if the cache is in plain view 30 feet up in a tree, and the cache requirements state that you must retrieve the cache to log it as a find. Is the first person to spot the cache really the FTF?

 

Good question.

If my 2 year old daughter was happy about finding it would she be FTF? I think so, even if I had to climb the tree.

If me and my buddy both wanted the FTF prize we might knock each other off the tree until one of us succeded in getting to it first. That person would be FTF.

If my parents came along, found it and retrieved it first and didn't log...they would be FTF even though there would be no evidence whatsoever they were there.

 

A general answer works generally. There are allways exceptions. Including the owners own rules on who can be FTF.

[+Renegade Knight]

Picture we're standing side-by-side, maybe almost "touching" close.

Both of us have have a flat rock in front of us.

If the rock YOU lift has the cache under it, you're FTF. Period.

I'd be STF.

If I find a cache first, working with another who really "pushes" me to look longing or further than I normally would (you know, those 40+ feet away hides) , than I claim the find SHARED and do not add it to our total.

We NEVER count "shared" finds on our FTF count. Though we know of some who do.

I don't think that's fair to the person who actually found it, especially if it's their first FTF.

We currently have 152 FTFs, all found by us.

 

Let's say that as you lift the rocks your view of what is under the rock you are holding is blocked, but your fellow cacher can see, and vice versa. Since by your actions, they saw the cache first, what happens then?

 

Silliness, I tell you. All silliness.

 

I can tell you what happens.

 

When I was a kid we had an easter egg hunt. One egg was worth money. I spotted it high in a holly bush. Every time I tried to reach it OUCH! So I got my taller cousin. He got the egg and kept it. Frigging jerk.

[+SGT red jeep]

FTF is one of those things that doesn't really exist in the rules, but everyone recognizes anyway, like putting $500 on Free Parking in Monopoly as a "First To Land" prize. Since GC doesn’t keep track of FTFs, but many individuals do, it becomes a personal thing until someone claims "I have more FTFs than you do."

 

Personally, when caching with others, I think of it this way – if there's an FTF prize of $100 in the cache, would I feel compelled to share it with anyone? Would anyone else have a claim on a share? What did they contribute to the find (other than keeping me company)?

 

My boss used to say "Opinions are like butts – everyone has one, and they all stink." That said, I present “Grünriese’s FTF Guidelines,” my personal guidelines for claiming an FTF (where a "cacher" is a single person or a team sharing the same account; a "finder" is the first cacher to spot the cache; and a "retriever" is the person who first lays hands on the cache).

 

1. For simple caches (not multis), someone usually finds and physically retrieves the cache first – so no shared FTF.

2. If a multi, and another cacher finds at least one of the stages, it's a shared FTF for those who found one or more stages.

3. If for any reason the finder requires the assistance of a retriever, it's a shared FTF.

4. If, by prior agreement, two or more cachers team up and agree to split the effort (e.g., one paddles the boat, one solves the puzzle, one climbs the tree, etc.), it's a shared FTF (the key here is that one cacher would not have found the cache – on this search – if not for the help of his co-FTF cachers).

5. Merely assisting in a search does not justify a shared FTF, even if the first to find feels generous. FTFs are earned, not gifted.

6. Two cachers who spot the cache simultaneously (e.g., an exposed cache or a very obvious hide) should share the FTF rather than argue who spotted it first or making it a race, pushing & shoving, to the cache. Hopefully, this is by mutual agreement.

7. FTF must sign the log to prove he was there. If you can't (e.g., no log, no pen, etc.), then leave something unique behind or make some kind of mark and note it in your posting as proof you were there. You can't prove someone wasn't there, you can only prove you were there. No log entry/mark/token/photo/etc., no find.

8. If someone else signed the cache logbook before you, you are not FTF, even if the first person never posts the find or doesn't have an account.

9. No fractional FTFs – each shared FTF counts as one.

10. The cache owner is the final arbiter for contested FTFs, but hopefully it never goes that far, and folks don't take the game that seriously. Remember, it is just a game.

 

There are no FTF Police, so police yourself, and have fun.

 

I agree with about everything, except I am usually the retriever being taller or more athletic than most I hunt with. If they spot it first, they get FTF. I just like feeling usefull.

But most importantly, HAVE FUN!!!

[+Harry Dolphin]

I'll never understand people who cache without a pen, but it seems to me that you need to sign the log in order to claim it as a find. (Or an alternate way of proving that you were there, and had opened cache in hand.) So, if that happened to me, I would probably not log a find until I could come back and sign it. If I lose out on an FTF, so be it. (Could be why I always carry a pen?)

I thank cerberus1 for the kind offer of co-FTF, but he found it first, even if I did egg him on.

I generally cache as part of a team with two accounts. If I find it first, I get FTF. If Andy Bear finds it first, he gets FTF. Seems simple enough to me. (Hmmm... Still no other finds on the one we found a week ago! And it had been published a week before?)

I enjoy FTFs! But I don't keep track of them. I probably have about thirty. One of these days, I'll have to go through all my finds, and make a list of my FTFs.

I've only had one group convene on FTF hunt on one of my caches. The cacher who found it claimed co-FTF, the other two hunters congratulated him on his FTF. If they want to claim co-FTF on it, I won't argue with them.

[+halffast]

IMO the first to sign the log would be FTF.It would be me because I am faster than my grandson.Then he gets to sign it.We have an agreement that he gets to find it but I get to sign first.He is 5 now and when he is a bit older he might want to renagotiate our contract.Until then I am FTF

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

1. For simple caches (not multis), someone usually finds and physically retrieves the cache first – so no shared FTF.

2. If a multi, and another cacher finds at least one of the stages, it's a shared FTF for those who found one or more stages.

3. If for any reason the finder requires the assistance of a retriever, it's a shared FTF.

4. If, by prior agreement, two or more cachers team up and agree to split the effort (e.g., one paddles the boat, one solves the puzzle, one climbs the tree, etc.), it's a shared FTF (the key here is that one cacher would not have found the cache – on this search – if not for the help of his co-FTF cachers).

5. Merely assisting in a search does not justify a shared FTF, even if the first to find feels generous. FTFs are earned, not gifted.

6. Two cachers who spot the cache simultaneously (e.g., an exposed cache or a very obvious hide) should share the FTF rather than argue who spotted it first or making it a race, pushing & shoving, to the cache. Hopefully, this is by mutual agreement.

7. FTF must sign the log to prove he was there. If you can't (e.g., no log, no pen, etc.), then leave something unique behind or make some kind of mark and note it in your posting as proof you were there. You can't prove someone wasn't there, you can only prove you were there. No log entry/mark/token/photo/etc., no find.

8. If someone else signed the cache logbook before you, you are not FTF, even if the first person never posts the find or doesn't have an account.

9. No fractional FTFs – each shared FTF counts as one.

10. The cache owner is the final arbiter for contested FTFs, but hopefully it never goes that far, and folks don't take the game that seriously. Remember, it is just a game.

 

I agree with most of those rules except for 8. I know of several situations where another cacher signed the log before the cache was even published; either they were beta testing it or they went along with the owner to place the cache. In my opinion the FTF can only occur once the cache has been published.

[+Grunriese]

Updated #8 below to reflect Cedar Grove Seekers' comment.

 

FTF is one of those things that doesn't really exist in the rules, but everyone recognizes anyway, like putting $500 on Free Parking in Monopoly as a "First To Land" prize. Since GC doesn’t keep track of FTFs, but many individuals do, it becomes a personal thing until someone claims "I have more FTFs than you do."

 

Personally, when caching with others, I think of it this way – if there's an FTF prize of $100 in the cache, would I feel compelled to share it with anyone? Would anyone else have a claim on a share? What did they contribute to the find (other than keeping me company)?

 

My boss used to say "Opinions are like butts – everyone has one, and they all stink." That said, I present “Grünriese’s FTF Guidelines,” my personal guidelines for claiming an FTF (where a "cacher" is a single person or a team sharing the same account; a "finder" is the first cacher to spot the cache; and a "retriever" is the person who first lays hands on the cache).

 

1. For simple caches (not multis), someone usually finds and physically retrieves the cache first – so no shared FTF.

2. If a multi, and another cacher finds at least one of the stages, it's a shared FTF for those who found one or more stages.

3. If for any reason the finder requires the assistance of a retriever, it's a shared FTF.

4. If, by prior agreement, two or more cachers team up and agree to split the effort (e.g., one paddles the boat, one solves the puzzle, one climbs the tree, etc.), it's a shared FTF (the key here is that one cacher would not have found the cache – on this search – if not for the help of his co-FTF cachers).

5. Merely assisting in a search does not justify a shared FTF, even if the first to find feels generous. FTFs are earned, not gifted.

6. Two cachers who spot the cache simultaneously (e.g., an exposed cache or a very obvious hide) should share the FTF rather than argue who spotted it first or making it a race, pushing & shoving, to the cache. Hopefully, this is by mutual agreement.

7. FTF must sign the log to prove he was there. If you can't (e.g., no log, no pen, etc.), then leave something unique behind or make some kind of mark and note it in your posting as proof you were there. You can't prove someone wasn't there, you can only prove you were there. No log entry/mark/token/photo/etc., no find.

8. If someone else signed the cache logbook before you, you are not FTF, even if the first person never posts the find or doesn't have an account. The exception is any cacher who was present when the cache was hidden, or who was given preferential information to the disadvantage of others.

9. No fractional FTFs – each shared FTF counts as one.

10. The cache owner is the final arbiter for contested FTFs, but hopefully it never goes that far, and folks don't take the game that seriously. Remember, it is just a game.

 

There are no FTF Police, so police yourself, and have fun.

[+Rockin Roddy]

As stated above, my condition dictates what I can and cannot do...penalizing me for that is not right! You want to know if I found the cache? I can describe it to a T for you! I have on more than one too! No, not mad, just pointing out the facts!

 

In this case I would have signed the log, I just couldn't for lack of pen...but I'm sure going to count the FTF! I wouldn't begrudge anyone a find because they couldn't sign the book (as long as they did find the cache)! Life dictates our actions...I'd guess my fingerprints on the log would be evidence enough!

[+Frodo_Underhill]

 

I agree with most of those rules except for 8. I know of several situations where another cacher signed the log before the cache was even published; either they were beta testing it or they went along with the owner to place the cache. In my opinion the FTF can only occur once the cache has been published.

 

Consider this (be careful as it could be heresy). This is not the only listing service for caches. Consider that a cache may have been listed on one of the other sites and then listed here later or it may have been put out as an event cache and then converted to a permanent cache. In these cases the cache will have been legitimately found before it was listed here. Claiming a FTF for this cache after several people have found in earlier through another route doesn't sound quite right. I would say there is no FTF to claim as it was taken in the caches earlier unbranded existence.

 

Good luck coming up with some standards for FTF. The discussion on this topic on our local South Jersey board generated a lot of angst and no agreements. It would be nice for this excuse for argument to go away.

[+Mudfrog]

I'll never understand people who cache without a pen, but it seems to me that you need to sign the log in order to claim it as a find. (Or an alternate way of proving that you were there, and had opened cache in hand.) So, if that happened to me, I would probably not log a find until I could come back and sign it. If I lose out on an FTF, so be it. (Could be why I always carry a pen?)

I thank cerberus1 for the kind offer of co-FTF, but he found it first, even if I did egg him on.

I generally cache as part of a team with two accounts. If I find it first, I get FTF. If Andy Bear finds it first, he gets FTF. Seems simple enough to me. (Hmmm... Still no other finds on the one we found a week ago! And it had been published a week before?)

I enjoy FTFs! But I don't keep track of them. I probably have about thirty. One of these days, I'll have to go through all my finds, and make a list of my FTFs.

I've only had one group convene on FTF hunt on one of my caches. The cacher who found it claimed co-FTF, the other two hunters congratulated him on his FTF. If they want to claim co-FTF on it, I won't argue with them.

 

I try to carry a pen with me anytime i go caching but i have a couple of times found myself without. Now, since i myself believe that the log needs to be signed for it to be counted as a legitimate find, i'll certainly figure out a way to leave my mark one way or another. It hasn't happened on a FTF yet but you can bet your sweet bippy that i would use a stick and some mud, wife's lipstick, or some other method to get that log signed. To me there's no excuse for not somehow completing this task as it is one of the basic guidelines of geocaching.

 

That being said, On a cache where someone contended that they found the cache first but didn't sign the log for whatever reason,,, i wouldn't call mine the FTF just because i signed the logbook first. I'll admit that i might be a bit irritated but the fact remains that someone else found that cache first!

[+Evil Chicken]

As stated above, my condition dictates what I can and cannot do...penalizing me for that is not right!

I guess this is where I don't understand the FTF mindset. How are you being "penalized" for not being able to claim the FTF? You still get to log the cache (when you have a pen), get a smilie and watch your number found stat bar rise for it. That's a visible reward - a smilie on the cache page and another stat bar number under your belt. Since gc doesn't track FTF stats, there's really no reward inherent in finding it first from a numbers standpoint.

 

If you are all out for FTF prizes, then I guess that would be a horse of another color. It would also be something I'd understand better, as I understand wanting to get a physical prize.

 

Until gc comes out with some special icon for the cache page for the first finder, generates FTF stats and specifically defines the circumstances and rules to claim a FTF, I think I will respectfully stay out of that aspect of the game.

 

I was, however, highly impressed with Grunriese's thoughtful post on the subject. I would hope, however, that #10 would never have to come into play. I wouldn't want to have to arbiter something like that - especially if I weren't witness to see exactly who found it first.

 

I agree with Harry Dolphin in that if I am caching with someone else and they find it first, or sign the log or leave some other memento there first, they are FTF and it is not a shared thing. I was out with a friend recently and she found 2 first and she rightfully claimed FTF. I didn't even think of claiming it as a shared thing (nor would I want to). Ghosts in the machine who find caches but don't sign the log don't count - it's very hard to prove your first if your name aint on the first page in the book. (Anyone can take a picture of a blank page in a log book - doesn't mean it's the first page in that log book so I don't buy that as proof positive.)