Attention All Pa Geocachers

[+dirtymartini]

I received a very disturbing e-mail the other day which I first thought was a practical joke. I have since found out it is not. Apparently a rogue group of disgruntled hunters have banded together and are removing caches on PA Gamelands #57 The following is the e-mail I received. What should be done?

 

The Gamelanmic Jihad has directed you to remove all your unauthorized chaches from SLG 57 no later than 12:00 Noon Saturday 29 April 2006 or become at risk to be taken hostage.

 

The infidels known as Big Boulder (CGH8YZ), The Stack (CGH93D, Cool It #1 plus 1-A (CGRZ6W), Cool It #2 (CGV6T8), and Roaring Brook (CG9AA1) are presently being held hostage. Although unharmed their safety is incumbent on the timely removal of these remaining infidels.

 

If these demands are not met the current hostages and future hostages will meet Allah at the bottom of a dumpster where all this garbage belongs in the first place.

 

The infidel known as Sorber Views has been given temporary reprieve.

 

When our demands are met we will contact all owners with instructions to take custody of this property.

 

This is not a request. Remove your garbage from our gamelands or be subject to our justice.

 

Thank you,

 

Cervo Selvacito IV

Jihad Chairman

Edited April 26, 2006 by dirtymartini

[+dirtymartini]

And by-the-way, The "Gamelamnic Jihad" has an account here on Geocaching.com I guess that is how they found all the caches.

[GeoMaxsplat]

When you add "Jihad" to your name you can't be all there. If there is that much of a problem they should let the state handle it.

[+Cardinal Red]

I can't find a "Gamelamnic Jihad" account. Was it removed by TPTB?

Any person or group that decides to target us can do this.

I don't see that there is anything we can do about it.

Even if you could identify them don't expect any help from Law Enforcement or the PGC.

[+Cardinal Red]

When you add "Jihad" to your name you can't be all there. <snip>

 

No, I think it's the word Tungsten that's an indicator.

[GeoMaxsplat]

If they have that much of a problem they with the caches they should notify the local game warden and let him handle it.

 

but I agree with you Cardinal. I don't think there is anything that the cachers can do. If they are infact unauthorized caches.

[+rhelt100]

We have as much right to be there as they do. I have a novel solution:

 

1. Tell them that geocaching has been deemed ok on SGL in PA and that you have every right to place them there.

 

2. Tell them that you understand they probably have had experiences with geocachers stumbling through and scaring game, sympathize with them.

 

3. Tell them that if this "jihadic" threat actually takes place, you have found an online bulk source for film cannisters/keyholders and that you will personally place a micro every 520 ft. in the entire gamelands and replace them as often as necessary until they stop acting like complete idiots.

 

My 2 cents...as for rather I would actually go through with the threat...I probably would place a half dozen or so just to make my point.

[+Cardinal Red]

<snip> Tell them that geocaching has been deemed ok on SGL in PA and that you have every right to place them there. <snip>

 

The problem: that is not 100% accurate. There is no official sanction of Geocaching on PA State Gamelands.

At best we are considered tolerated guests. Some regions have a dimmer view of us. The hunters do provide MOST of the revenue to fund the Gamelands. There is limited outside funding for some Gameland projects, but they are very quiet about that. Except when they encourage hunters to vote for initiatives that will benefit them.

 

I also think openly challenging the tenacity of a group of disgruntled Pennsylvania "Sportsmen", is unwise.

[+olbluesguy]

If this is in fact true... I promise I will place two caches for every one that is taken hostage.

these are my old stomping grounds,and Noxen was my second home.

Fools like these can rarely keep their yaps shut,and like to brag.

and I know enough people out that way that will keep an ear out.

[GeoMaxsplat]

One thing I do know for certain is that in order to place a cache in a PA state park is that you need to get permission from the park office. This is state game land not a park but it may fall under the same rules. If you have a cache there you should at least try and get the appropiate permission before placing it. I'm not saying I agree with what these knuckle heads are doing. I am a hunter and I hate it when my hunts are disturbed but this is taking it a little too far. the people who sent the e-mail should (as I stated earlier) talk to the local game warden before they do anything too rash. You never know the game warden may allow them to stay.

[+dirtymartini]

<snip> Tell them that geocaching has been deemed ok on SGL in PA and that you have every right to place them there. <snip>

 

The problem: that is not 100% accurate. There is no official sanction of Geocaching on PA State Gamelands.

At best we are considered tolerated guests. Some regions have a dimmer view of us. The hunters do provide MOST of the revenue to fund the Gamelands. There is limited outside funding for some Gameland projects, but they are very quiet about that. Except when they encourage hunters to vote for initiatives that will benefit them.

 

I also think openly challenging the tenacity of a group of disgruntled Pennsylvania "Sportsmen", is unwise.

 

What you said is true, we are tolerated guests. But that doesn't give them the right to dictate Game Commission policy. I don't know if it's disgruntled hunters or not, just my guess.

[+dirtymartini]

Sorry, their profile is "Gamelanmic Jihad" only a member since April 14th

[+IMLost]

I just posted this also in another thread didn't realize that dirtymartini already posted but anyway I have been threatened by this person before and they didn't follow through with it. I doubt they even know how to use a GPS if the Stack is taken I'll replace it and add another.

[+The Leprechauns]

One thing I do know for certain is that in order to place a cache in a PA state park is that you need to get permission from the park office. This is state game land not a park but it may fall under the same rules. If you have a cache there you should at least try and get the appropiate permission before placing it. I'm not saying I agree with what these knuckle heads are doing. I am a hunter and I hate it when my hunts are disturbed but this is taking it a little too far. the people who sent the e-mail should (as I stated earlier) talk to the local game warden before they do anything too rash. You never know the game warden may allow them to stay.

State Parks and State Forests are managed by a separate agency, the DCNR. The PGC does not follow the same permit process. This confusion seems to come up every time that Gamelands caches are discussed. I continue to believe that the example in this thread and other similar incidents are isolated cases of disgruntled individuals who do not like geocaching.

 

Well, I don't like all the trash, abandoned appliances and stolen cars that I see when I go hiking on State Gamelands. Maybe we should clean some of them up!

[+wildchld97]

This confusion seems to come up every time that Gamelands caches are discussed. I continue to believe that the example in this thread and other similar incidents are isolated cases of disgruntled individuals who do not like geocaching.

 

Well, I don't like all the trash, abandoned appliances and stolen cars that I see when I go hiking on State Gamelands. Maybe we should clean some of them up!

 

I don't have anything against hunters per say...but I do have a few issues with the way that some of them are seemingly under the assumption of exclusive entitlement to be on SGL property while all others should be banned (including bird watchers, hikers, campers, nature lovers, and of course geocachers/letterboxers). These folks seem to believe that just because they are on State Game lands that it's their God given right to hunt unobstructed should be protected. I have to believe that some of these folks are the same ones who continuously hunt on MY property which is clearly marked NO HUNTING and NO TRESSPASSING...probably because they feel that it's their God given right to hunt...PERIOD..anywhere and at anytime.

 

Turkey season is coming up and they don't want to accidentally shoot you and end up having to miss their turkey and end the day with burying your body (or heaven forbid a whole family) in the woods...that's too much work for one day....especially when you've been stumbling around the woods all morning with a gun and a case of beer stashed in your pack.

 

As for trash? In my neck of the woods I've seen more garbage strewn about the gamelands by these yahoos to fill a dump. Just look under some of the deerstands and around the area that they've been hunting and you'll see what I mean. Beercans, bottles, broken deerstands that have fallen to the ground, cigarette butts, wrappers from food, etc.They certainly don't CITO.

 

I'll go along with placing a micro every 200 feet of any cache that is actually removed. I would also advocate being in the woods clearly early for a "morning stroll" during the season wearing bright orange and making as much noise as possible. No turkey dinners for anyone. Simple...No cache. No turkey.

[+eaglespirit0]

It's inevitable that any good, practical, clean sport or past time that anyone does will eventually be ruined or tarnished by someone else, either intentionally or unintentionally.

 

With that being said, I would drop the entire conversation. People thrive off of the attention and the mob that they are enciting and it will only encourage them to do it more. So don't itch, moan, complain, or come up with a number of radical solutions. You're just egging them on.

 

. . . . . and personally, I have a day set up to do all the dirty martini caches.

 

Have a nice night folks.

 

- JD

The 18 Year Old Who Still Doesn't Have a Clue

[+dirtymartini]

Here is the latest offerings from "Gamelanmic Jihad"

 

I'm glad to hear you decided to think about it. It's obvious there are some points that we will never agree upon but it's always best to find things that can be agreed on as a good starting point.

 

As a little history lesson the geocachers on SGL 57 have been under watch since their inception. There were rumblings back in 03 or 04. Some wanted them removed but a decision was made to watch them and see what happens. There was little activity and the number remained at only 3. Then more caches were deposited then you started dropping them all over the place. You caused a panic so a decision was made to pull the plug on you guys. Fortunately for you trout season came and fishing for trout became more important than fishing for geocaches. Turkey season is here and since we're back in the woods it seems only logical to finish our mission.

 

There have been some that have advocated a zero tolerance policy. Lucky for you guys most don't own a GPS and/or a computer otherwise they all the caches would have been history.

 

I can't make any offers without deliberations. There has been a discussion to overlook caches that don't interfere with hunters. They will have to advise cachers to avoid during hunting season. This is only in the discussion phase and will be incumbent on your actions.

 

I personally have an idea to relocate some or consolidate. There are spots on the mountain that are good caching locations that would be technically exempt from hijacking because they would not be on the game lands. There might also be a chance to place some on Clean & Green and/or North Branch Land Trust.

 

There's a lot you can't tell just from reading a topo map. There are many things you don't know about the mountains or the forces that come to play. I'm going to tell you a secret about one of your caches which will surprise you...but not now.

 

You obviously underestimate the number of PA hunters. There aren't enough geocachers on the planet if the hunters object.

 

I don't buy or will anyone else buy your excuse that these caches cannot be removed by the deadline. I do not have the authority to extend any deadlines. A good faith effort to start the removal could be used as leverage for an extension but again I can't make any promises.

 

I would highly recommend the removal of Beach Lake as that has really set off one of the more vocal members. Just as another little history lesson the original name of Beach Lake was Bean Lake named after the Bean family of Noxen. Can't really tell you how the name got changed. No doubt some flat lander.

 

Formulate an offer and I will move it forward for consideration. The next Jihad council meeting is scheduled for Friday night at Torchy's Noxen Inn prior to the opening day of turkey season.

 

Have a nice day,

 

Cervo Selvatico IV

Jihad Chairman

Edited April 27, 2006 by dirtymartini

[GeoMaxsplat]

dirtymartini,

 

Find out who the local game warden is. Find out what the regulations are for being on the SGL. Also let them know of what your e-mail have been like. It will more than likely be that the game warden will "allow" you to leave them in place while you get the necessary permits in place. I don't know that area at all or else I would offer to help you out.

 

Max

[GeoMaxsplat]

I don't have anything against hunters per say...but I do have a few issues with the way that some of them are seemingly under the assumption of exclusive entitlement to be on SGL property while all others should be banned (including bird watchers, hikers, campers, nature lovers, and of course geocachers/letterboxers). These folks seem to believe that just because they are on State Game lands that it's their God given right to hunt unobstructed should be protected. I have to believe that some of these folks are the same ones who continuously hunt on MY property which is clearly marked NO HUNTING and NO TRESSPASSING...probably because they feel that it's their God given right to hunt...PERIOD..anywhere and at anytime.

 

First off if hunters are poaching on your property you have the right to call the police and get them removed. One thing you will want to do is find out what car/truck they are driving and get the plate number. I'm not sure how the laws are against poaching in PA but in MD if you arae caught you will lose your gun, car/truck, and possible more.

 

I'll go along with placing a micro every 200 feet of any cache that is actually removed. I would also advocate being in the woods clearly early for a "morning stroll" during the season wearing bright orange and making as much noise as possible. No turkey dinners for anyone. Simple...No cache. No turkey.

 

This is what is known as interfering with a legal hunt (provided they are on SGL) and is illegal.

 

Turkey season is coming up and they don't want to accidentally shoot you and end up having to miss their turkey and end the day with burying your body (or heaven forbid a whole family) in the woods...that's too much work for one day....especially when you've been stumbling around the woods all morning with a gun and a case of beer stashed in your pack.

 

This is just down right ignorant. How can you think all hunters are like this? Open your eyes and you will see that most hunters are good people and not a bunch of drunk rednecks.

Edited April 27, 2006 by GeoMaxsplat

[+dirtymartini]

I don't have anything against hunters per say...but I do have a few issues with the way that some of them are seemingly under the assumption of exclusive entitlement to be on SGL property while all others should be banned (including bird watchers, hikers, campers, nature lovers, and of course geocachers/letterboxers). These folks seem to believe that just because they are on State Game lands that it's their God given right to hunt unobstructed should be protected. I have to believe that some of these folks are the same ones who continuously hunt on MY property which is clearly marked NO HUNTING and NO TRESSPASSING...probably because they feel that it's their God given right to hunt...PERIOD..anywhere and at anytime.

 

First off if hunters are poaching on your property you have the right to call the police and get them removed. One thing you will want to do is find out what car/truck they are driving and get the plate number. I'm not sure how the laws are against poaching in PA but in MD if you arae caught you will lose your gun, car/truck, and possible more.

 

I'll go along with placing a micro every 200 feet of any cache that is actually removed. I would also advocate being in the woods clearly early for a "morning stroll" during the season wearing bright orange and making as much noise as possible. No turkey dinners for anyone. Simple...No cache. No turkey.

 

This is what is known as interfering with a legal hunt (provided they are on SGL) and is illegal.

 

I agree, that is the law in Pa. We have to respect their right to hunt also. That would be a sure way of getting thrown off the game lands which is just what they want.

Turkey season is coming up and they don't want to accidentally shoot you and end up having to miss their turkey and end the day with burying your body (or heaven forbid a whole family) in the woods...that's too much work for one day....especially when you've been stumbling around the woods all morning with a gun and a case of beer stashed in your pack.

 

This is just down right ignorant. How can you think all hunters are like this? Open your eyes and you will see that most hunters are good people and not a bunch of drunk rednecks.

It's always the few that spoil it for the many

[GeoMaxsplat]

I agree with you martini, but go with what I ws saying. At least try to work with the game warden and see what he is willing to do. Also add and advisory to your caches for people to beware during hunting seasons or suggest that they where a florescent orange vest or shirt. I can see both sides of this. I don't want you to think that I'm being onesided on the topic at hand. My advise to you is to talk to the game wardens and possibly even DCNR. I think you will get alot farther than by putting a cache every 200 ft. If everyone retaliates against one another it will eventually get ugly. That's why I have been trying to give you sensible (spelling?) advise on the issue.

[+dirtymartini]

I agree with you martini, but go with what I ws saying. At least try to work with the game warden and see what he is willing to do. Also add and advisory to your caches for people to beware during hunting seasons or suggest that they where a florescent orange vest or shirt. I can see both sides of this. I don't want you to think that I'm being onesided on the topic at hand. My advise to you is to talk to the game wardens and possibly even DCNR. I think you will get alot farther than by putting a cache every 200 ft. If everyone retaliates against one another it will eventually get ugly. That's why I have been trying to give you sensible (spelling?) advise on the issue.

 

I am on total agreement with you on this. I would even go as far as disabling the caches during hunting seasons, which I have proposed to the terrorists from which the e-mail came.

[ImpalaBob]

I have personally spoken to Doug Killough the Director for the Southeast Region and he has given us the OK as long as links to the PAGC Web site and Hunter Digest are provided so cachers can read the rules and check the hunting seasons. There are many very specific rules and regulations regarding types of conveyance allowed and non-hunting use of the gamelands. I have not spoken directly to the Northeast Director ... but to one of his deputies to resolve a cache confiscation issue and get them returned to their owner. I know the Northeast Region is not happy with geocaching. Since my immeadiate issues were resolved I did not pursue the issue further to Carl Roe the top State Director (717-787-4250).

 

We are there in violation of Section 722 Land use provisions. DCNR has nothing to do with this. PA State gamelands are controlled by the PAGC only.

 

For safety reasons we should stay out of gamelands during the three primary seasons: Spring Gobbler, Fall Turkey, and Fall Deer.... except on Sundays. Maybe that will appease them.

 

Even if we were to get the issue of geocaching put on the June PAGC Directors meeting agenda and have it approved .... we will still be fighting with individual hunters .... and no good will come of that!

 

Thank you DirtyMartini for taking an active interest in this issue and trying to work things out.

 

Solving the problem would be way better than fighting the problem. ImpalaBob

[GeoMaxsplat]

I have personally spoken to Doug Killough the Director for the Southeast Region and he has given us the OK as long as links to the PAGC Web site and Hunter Digest are provided so cachers can read the rules and check the hunting seasons. There are many very specific rules and regulations regarding types of conveyance allowed and non-hunting use of the gamelands. I have not spoken directly to the Northeast Director ... but to one of his deputies to resolve a cache confiscation issue and get them returned to their owner. I know the Northeast Region is not happy with geocaching. Since my immeadiate issues were resolved I did not pursue the issue further to Carl Roe the top State Director (717-787-4250).

 

We are there in violation of Section 722 Land use provisions. DCNR has nothing to do with this. PA State gamelands are controlled by the PAGC only.

 

For safety reasons we should stay out of gamelands during the three primary seasons: Spring Gobbler, Fall Turkey, and Fall Deer.... except on Sundays. Maybe that will appease them.

 

Even if we were to get the issue of geocaching put on the June PAGC Directors meeting agenda and have it approved .... we will still be fighting with individual hunters .... and no good will come of that!

 

Thank you DirtyMartini for taking an active interest in this issue and trying to work things out.

 

Solving the problem would be way better than fighting the problem. ImpalaBob

 

That is a lot of good information. I would rather try and work with them than start trying to fight them and with this information it will be alot easier for all involved to handle it.

[Mr.Yuck]

Here is the latest offerings from "Gamelanmic Jihad"

 

 

Please contact me through my profile. Once we are in contact and have each others email addresses, forward me these emails in their entirety. You'd be surprised what you can sometimes find out from the headers of an email message (although it often leads nowhere as well). At the very least, you can report them to their Internet Service Provider for sending harassing, threatening emails. which is against the terms of service of every ISP in America.

 

[EDIT] Unless of course they are repeatedly contacting you only through the geocaching.com website, without checking the box to give you their email address. Then of course they are abusing the "email another player" feature on geocaching.com, and can still be reported to this website. Unless you want to keep receiving these emails, to get updates on their threats.

Edited April 27, 2006 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+Wandering Bears]

Here's hoping y'all get this worked out, satisfactory to both you AND the hunters. As a hunter of both caches and game myself I am sympathetic to both sides. What I'm NOT sympathetic to is the heavy handed tactics of this "jihad".

 

I hunt WV, and cache in PA. I've run into hunters and never had a problem. But then again, I'm one of "Them".

[+dirtymartini]

I have personally spoken to Doug Killough the Director for the Southeast Region and he has given us the OK as long as links to the PAGC Web site and Hunter Digest are provided so cachers can read the rules and check the hunting seasons. There are many very specific rules and regulations regarding types of conveyance allowed and non-hunting use of the gamelands. I have not spoken directly to the Northeast Director ... but to one of his deputies to resolve a cache confiscation issue and get them returned to their owner. I know the Northeast Region is not happy with geocaching. Since my immeadiate issues were resolved I did not pursue the issue further to Carl Roe the top State Director (717-787-4250).

 

We are there in violation of Section 722 Land use provisions. DCNR has nothing to do with this. PA State gamelands are controlled by the PAGC only.

 

For safety reasons we should stay out of gamelands during the three primary seasons: Spring Gobbler, Fall Turkey, and Fall Deer.... except on Sundays. Maybe that will appease them.

 

Even if we were to get the issue of geocaching put on the June PAGC Directors meeting agenda and have it approved .... we will still be fighting with individual hunters .... and no good will come of that!

 

Thank you DirtyMartini for taking an active interest in this issue and trying to work things out.

 

Solving the problem would be way better than fighting the problem. ImpalaBob

 

I agree, we need to tread lightly. I did place a call to the northeast region and based on the tone and inflection in the officers voice when I mentioned Geocaching I could tell I wasn't going to get much help. Sometimes I think the PGC is as heavy handed as the "Gamelanmic Jihad." In the interest of everyones safety and the future of Geocaching on SGL's, I am going to hammer out a compromise with these terrorists.

I call them terrorists because of their heavy handed way they approached this. If they would have contacted me and opened a friendly dialogue things would have gone much smoother. I guuess it depends on how far each individual has climbed on the evolutionary ladder. Some of these thugs are still on the bottom rung. I know who some of these people are, and they have tried controlling these game lands like it was their own private hunting grounds for years. What we need to do as a group is lobby our elected officials and see if there isn't a way to have a written policy on Geocaching on SGL's. If someone could draft a letter, would could all send it to our respective State representives through e-mail. Any thoughts on this?

[+Shorelander]

Gotta say, I'm intrigued, and I live in Massachusetts! Though, I don't think the "redneck" stereotype's winning any converts to geocaching.

 

A suggestion that all y'all might have considered already is to have the owners disable the caches during hunting season.

 

Furthermore, shouldn't these "hostage" caches be disabled? I checked on one and it was still listed as active.

[+Lasagna]

Here's a couple ideas ...

 

1. Make the caches "members only". This will keep misinformed self-righteous "vigilante" individuals from getting to the information without at least supporting GC in the first place. In addition it will force them to supply indisputable information to GC in order to make payment in the event such information would be needed (See below).

 

2. Report the account GC.com. They are obviously using the services of GC.com in violation of the intended spirit of the game. The account should be deleted and perhaps GC can persue the threats. It's one thing if you are being contacted by PCG regarding the caches or an individual in an official capacity regarding the land use, it's another if you are being threatened by a self-righteous hunter who thinks he owns the place.

 

3. If the messages contain any personal threats of injury or harm, report them to law enforcement immediately. File a complaint.

 

4. Perhaps organize a CITO event on a SUNDAY (like maybe the one right before a hunting season starts) and CITO out everything in the area that God didn't put there in the first place (if that happens to include a few trail markers, deer stands, and other litter ... oops). You can remove and disable your caches at the same time and wait for the hunting season to end before putting them back. OK, so maybe you shouldn't really do this ... but cooperation goes both ways and your new found hunting I think will get the message. Act civil and respect each other's right to be there.

 

Don't get me wrong, most hunters are very responsible and have no issues with co-existing with geocachers or anyone else who is using State Game Lands property ... it's public land for public use. They are rightly concerned with people who don't follow PCG rules (particularly with those who don't wear the requisite gear during active hunting seasons) and with those who go screaming and hollering into the woods during an active hunt (one, this is foolish as the end of gun tends to follow noise a hunter hears and second, you are in technical violation of the game land rules at that point since you are interfering with a legal hunt -- at which point you're acting like one of those activists who show up any time a hunter goes into the woods trying to prevent a legal pasttime). There has been more than one occasion when I've chastised a geocacher who I've run into during hunting season on SGL who wasn't wearing orange blaze. I carrry mine in my cachers backpack and I avoid the opening day of hunting season and other "high traffic" days out of concern for my own safety. Like I said, while most hunters are very responsible, there are a few that are barely above the level of intelligence necessary to get their pants on in the morning let alone figure out how to walk and chew gum at the same time. Hunting accidents happen all the time ... the game just isn't worth that risk.

 

I think at the end of the day, the right answer for Game Lands caches may be to simply disable them during hunting seasons so that people don't hunt for them. Even your radical hunter friend there shouldn't have a problem with people on the land when he's not around.

 

Oh ... and if by chance this individual actually used his real name to send you the threat, perhaps you might want to drop a dime (ok, a quarter ... or maybe 50 cents) on him to the PCG. I'm pretty sure the game warden would love to remind him that enforcement of SGL policies and practices are not the responsibility of members of the public and that making threats to individuals might impair his own ability to own a gun and obtain the necessary permits for hunting within Pennsylvania. At the end of the day ... while they may disagree with the caches being there ... they should be reporting them to the PCG, not threatening the owners.

Edited April 27, 2006 by Lasagna

[+Cardinal Red]

I'm not sure where it would lead to contact our legislators to protect our "rights".

We are basically tolerated on a good will basis. Do we really have any rights?

There is also an information disconnect between Geocachers and Hunters.

 

Went looking for information on Hunting PA.com

How many Pennsylvanians are/were aware of the issue and concern that is outlined in the following press release. I wasn't. One poster on their Forum called us "Freeloaders". One of his concerns was the public shooting ranges on Game Lands. I don't think he realizes those ranges do receive funding from outside the PGC. What else should we know about each other, and we don't. We certainly are not perceived as his ally. So why should he welcome us? Make sure you read the part of the press release where they talk about the Game Lands being used by all Pennsylvanians. But they are addressing politicians. If they really believed that, we would be in a much better position. But also make sure you catch the part about the "duty of all citizens to share in the cost of public wildlife lands". Now that's something I think they would welcome. How do we feel about that? And remember there is proposed legislation that would have that effect. I don't think there's a chance it will pass any time soon. But time will tell.

 

 

SB 868 is threatening to raise the payment in lieu of taxes made by the PGC. The press release below better explains what is happening.

 

It is important that we contact our legislators about this bill. Passage of this bill will further reduce the sevices and programs provided by the Game Commission.

 

TO: House Environmental Resources and Energy Committee

FROM: Joseph J. Neville, Legislative Liaison

DATE: April 21, 2006

SUBJECT: SB 868

 

The Pennsylvania Game Commission has grave concerns about the impact of SB 868 on the agency. The passage of SB 868 would place the fiscal solvency of the agency in jeopardy.

 

In FY 05-06, the Pennsylvania Game Commission paid $1,713,865 for in lieu of tax payments for approximately 1.4 million acres of lands, waters, and buildings. The in lieu of tax payment rate was changed in 1995 from 20 cents to 40 cents per acre to each school district, county, and township.

 

Senate Bill 868, which currently is in the House Environmental Resources and Energy Committee, proposed increasing the rate from 40 cents to $1.20 payable to each of the three municipalities making the total payment of $3.60.

 

This would increase the total payment from $1,713,865 to $5,141,594. These payments must be processed by September 1st of each year. Since the Game Commission does not recognize license revenues before these payments are due, this year it will be necessary to pay this increased amount out of the unreserved fund balance.

 

The unreserved fund balance is projected to be approximately $21 million as of June 30, 2006. In order to cover expenses for the first two months of the fiscal year, before revenues are recognized, the agency needs approximately $14 million. The increase in salaries and benefits as set by state contract for the FY 06-07 is approximately $2.8 million. If SB 868 passes, it will cost the Game Commission an increase in excess of $3.4 million. This leaves a balance of approximately $800,000 in the Game Fund Reserve. This would be the lowest reserve balance in decades and the fiscal solvency of the agency would be in jeopardy.

 

It is imperative that we remember that State Game Lands are used by all Pennsylvanians. They are set aside for the protection and propagation of our wildlife species. All Pennsylvanians benefit from the continued viability of healthy wildlife populations. Some people benefit by watching wildlife, some by actively harvesting wildlife and some by the simple benefits of living in a viable ecosystem. However, we as a society cannot afford to say that setting aside wildlife lands benefits only a small segment of citizens. It is something that should be addressed by the Commonwealth for the benefit of all its citizens. It is something that can be addressed now by ensuring that any increase in Forest Reserve payments are not placed on one group to the exclusion of others. Instead, the responsible stewardship of our public wildlife lands requires all of society to share in the cost of that land.

 

Nor can we responsibly shirk this duty of all citizens to share in the cost of public wildlife lands. It is true that all activities on State Game Lands, from hiking and biking to hunting and trapping, are regulated so as not to adversely impact the wildlife of Pennsylvania, and to not adversely affect other uses of public wildlife lands. Thus, just as someone cannot ride a horse anywhere in a State Park at any time, nor can someone hunt on most National Park Service property, such as the Appalachian Trail, someone cannot ride a horse or a bike everywhere on Game Lands at any time. However, to say the State Game Lands are not used for horseback riding, biking, fishing, boating, birdwatching, cross-country skiing, snowmobiling, or any number of other recreational uses is not accurate. Indeed, just in the Southeast, the Horseshoe Trail crosses parts of three State Game Lands. The popular Stony Creek Trail is almost wholly within State Game Lands. Hiking is generally allowed anywhere outside propagation areas at any time although for safety’s sake you may be required to wear blaze orange at the height of big game seasons. We live in a modern society with many people. It would be irresponsible to place the cost of everyone’s public wildlife lands on the backs of one relatively small group of users.

[+Lasagna]

A very interesting article ... but it makes the case even more so that this misinformed hunter needs to be found and his actions corrected.

 

This is basically one state agency complaining to the legislature about the funding it is receiving being insufficient to remain solvent. In other words, the amount of MY TAX DOLLARS that they are receiving -- which is what gives me a right to be on the land just as much as a hunter.

 

It would seem the PCG recognizes the multi-use nature of the land, is fine with it, and in fact encourages it. They are careful however to point out that there are appropriate times and places for activities ... and this gets back to my earlier comment about disabling SGL caches during hunting season. There's already a strong encouragement that any SGL cache should include links and dates regarding rules and hunting seasons, but that's not often easy for people to understand AND more importantly those operation without the cache description may not know what they are in for.

 

Perhaps an enhancement request to GC to allow for "scheduled" disable/enable windows so a cache owner could specify timeframes when he didn't want the cache active and have it automatically pulled and then reactivated at the appropriate times?

[GeoMaxsplat]

Perhaps an enhancement request to GC to allow for "scheduled" disable/enable windows so a cache owner could specify timeframes when he didn't want the cache active and have it automatically pulled and then reactivated at the appropriate times?

 

Another good thing would be to advise that even when it is not hunting season to where Bright orange.

[+dirtymartini]

I'm not sure where it would lead to contact our legislators to protect our "rights".

We are basically tolerated on a good will basis. Do we really have any rights?

There is also an information disconnect between Geocachers and Hunters.

 

 

I wasn't talking about "protecting" our rights I was talking about creating some through legislation.

[bogleman]

Why don't you send your little friend and give him a heads up on this submitted legislation. If anyone knows politics this one has a long way to go but I doubt the person sending you email would understand the bill other than it COULD cost him $20 to use the SGL.

[+wildchld97]

 

I agree, we need to tread lightly. I did place a call to the northeast region and based on the tone and inflection in the officers voice when I mentioned Geocaching I could tell I wasn't going to get much help. Sometimes I think the PGC is as heavy handed as the "Gamelanmic Jihad." In the interest of everyones safety and the future of Geocaching on SGL's, I am going to hammer out a compromise with these terrorists.

I call them terrorists because of their heavy handed way they approached this. If they would have contacted me and opened a friendly dialogue things would have gone much smoother. I guuess it depends on how far each individual has climbed on the evolutionary ladder. Some of these thugs are still on the bottom rung. I know who some of these people are, and they have tried controlling these game lands like it was their own private hunting grounds for years. What we need to do as a group is lobby our elected officials and see if there isn't a way to have a written policy on Geocaching on SGL's. If someone could draft a letter, would could all send it to our respective State representives through e-mail. Any thoughts on this?

 

Well gee, I called them rednecks and got slammed...but the term "thug" is universal and acceptable I suppose.

 

Apparently my sarcasm in a previous post has been misunderstood. *Their* personal approach by sending these disgusting emails with reference to any type of so-called *Jihad* and *hostage*...was disrespectful to Americans in general IMMHO. Even the "rednecks" that I had mentioned are more respectful than that. In fact, I can't imagine any red blooded American redneck allowing someone in their midst even uttering those words without opening a big ole' can of whoop butt. I can handle drunken hunters any day, I can handle a joke, but anyone that wants to use terrorist terminology and have me treat them with some type of respect? NO.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the SGL's belong to ALL of us. These lands were set aside as areas where hunters could HUNT...but that does NOT give them *exclusive* rights. They still have to be responsible and to be aware of others in the area. Many of the state parks are also state gamelands. My kids PLAY and HIKE there. We've always been careful about where and when we hike, camp, and play and have always given hunters leeway...but I'll be darned if some whacked out hunter group is going to send out e-mails sounding like the soldiers of Bin Laden and try to intimidate innocent American people. There are more mature ways of dealing with issues.

 

Sec. 2510...Littering and restrictions on vehicles states "It is unlawful for any person while hunting or furtaking or while on lands or waters open to hunting or furtaking to: (1) Deposit or leave any garbage, bottles, cartons, containers, glass, paper or other rubbish or debris other than in a place or receptacle maintained for that purpose. The provisions of this paragraph shall not apply to any spent shotgun shell or spent rifle shell casing which is ejected during normal hunting activities.

 

THAT is what I was referring to when I mentioned the beer cans, cigarette butts and food wrappers.

 

Sec. 2511. Damage to trees:

 

a) General rule. - It is unlawful while hunting or while preparing to hunt for any game or wildlife:

 

(1) To cause damage to any tree or trees located upon any public or privately owned lands as a result of constructing any tree stand, platform or any other manmade support of any description or as a result of using any portable tree stand or any other implement or device of any description to climb any tree.

 

Look for the cache by the Montour Trail and you'll see a deer stand that is littering the creek and disrupting the natural beauty. Do you think that the hunter who placed it is concerned? Nah...he/she got his/her kill and went home. When the floods came and destroyed the perch, he/she abandoned it. This stand was NOT on private property and clearly against the law.

 

As for the tresspassing issue on my property where there are CLEARLY marked "NO HUNTING" and "NO TRESSPASSING" signs:

 

Sec. 2512 states:

(a) General rule. - On any lands or waters owned, leased or controlled by the commission, it is unlawful, without first securing consent or a permit from the commission, to:

 

(1) Go upon any lands or waters which are posted against entry for any purpose

 

One person posted that I should get the license plate number of the illegal hunters on my property. That would be MY first choice, but I have a lot of land and a lot of places that they could have parked to have access. I've called the police, but bushwhacking just isn't their thing. They DO offer to take a report though.What am I supposed to do with that? Even at our other property in the Allegheny National Forest, the screwballs are spotlighting and hunting at night. At least I respect the hours of the places that we choose to hunt our cache. Most of us DO respect the law...as do hunters.

 

Someone referred to me as being "ignorant" as their perception of my commentary. Hardly. I'm a college educated person with a criminal justice degree. I just happen to be married to a redneck family. I know both sides of the coin.

 

As for the illegality of "disrupting a hunt" That was referring to Sec. 2302. "Interference with lawful taking of wildlife or other activities permitted by this title prohibited" Now, Nobody that I know would *really* do something like that *knowingly* for Sec. 2302 (a) states "it is unlawful for another person at the location where the activity is taking place to intentionally obstruct or interfere with the lawful taking of wildlife."

 

The comment where I advocate placing micro's every 200 feet, wearing orange and making as much noise as possible was a joke, but apparently the humor was lost. Grow up.

 

HOWEVER: Sec. 2302 © states "Exceptions. - The conduct declared unlawful in this section does not include any activities arising from lawful activity by other land uses, including farming, mining, forestry practices, RECREATION or ANY OTHER activities when it is evident that such activities are not intended to violate this section". Geocaching IS recreation. Take the cache away and you still have the coordinates to a *most of the time* beautiful or picturesque location. I could just be hiking and taking in the scenery for what it's worth. I'm STILL allowed to hike on those lands.

 

I'm just pointing out that there are so-called "ignorant people" in every walk of life but I'm not one of them. There are good and bad in ALL facits of life. I am a hunter and I am also a geocacher. I am a college educated redneck. How is that for being on all sides?

 

E-mailing representivives are not going to change a thing. Pessimistic...maybe. However, I have seen how the political machine tumbles around. Pay the *ransom* for your caches from the *terrorists* and take them somewhere else for all I care. There are plenty of others to hunt OFF the borders of these "sacred" grounds.

[+dirtymartini]

Well gee, I called them rednecks and got slammed...but the term "thug" is universal and acceptable I suppose.

I sure didn't slam you for this! They are all that and more.

 

Apparently my sarcasm in a previous post has been misunderstood. *Their* personal approach by sending these disgusting emails with reference to any type of so-called *Jihad* and *hostage*...was disrespectful to Americans in general IMMHO. Even the "rednecks" that I had mentioned are more respectful than that. In fact, I can't imagine any red blooded American redneck allowing someone in their midst even uttering those words without opening a big ole' can of whoop butt. I can handle drunken hunters any day, I can handle a joke, but anyone that wants to use terrorist terminology and have me treat them with some type of respect? NO.

 

Couldn't agree more. The use of the term "Jihad" and the overall inflection of terrorist overtones reaches beyond the worst possible cause they could have chosen to be named after. This struck a nerve with me, as it should with any legal resident of the USA

Edited April 28, 2006 by dirtymartini

[ImpalaBob]

FYI Only around 50% of SGLs are public access. You can NOT just go hiking anyplace you want. Where public access is the norm .... such as the Appalachian Trail .... Safety Zones are set up to seperate hunting from public access. Propagation Zones prohibit ANY ACCESS except PGC officials, and may be yearly or seasonally regulated. Signs are well posted!

 

Having been involved in these recent threads brings me to 2 major conclusions:

 

Geocachers are ignorant of the complexity of the actual laws governing the use of gamelands.

 

These Jihad cache terrorists are ignorant of the law ..... period.

 

We have a PGC Program called SPORT. Sportsmen Policing Our Ranks Together. These "Jihad" are operating outside the law. If any of you choose to report these individuals you should mention the SPORT program.

 

I am deeply offended by the "Jihad" name they are using!!!!!

 

I will be placing a series of caches on a local very small gameland. I will be posting the links to the PGC and the Hunting Digest. I will be using these caches as a means to educate cachers about the gamelands. I will explain the general area of the caches and the propogation areas in their vicinity. I will provide parking coordinates and a trail route. Caches will be placed very close to the trails and cleverly hid. I will DISABLE the series during Fall Turkey, Spring Gobbler, and Deer Seasons to keep both hunters and geocachers SAFE. As a PAGC Hunter Trapper Education Instructor I believe I can accomplish this and provide my fellow cachers with a nice safe hike and also keep the hunters I have licensed happy.

 

If you are considering relocating your existing gameland caches .... please consider the Safety Zone areas that are near the perimeters and also the Safety Zones surrounding public access trails and roads. Placing caches deep in prime hunting areas is really not a very good idea!

 

Hunter Orange hats are usually the cheapest hats you can purchase in any sporting goods store. Wearing that hat might just save your life.

 

I keep telling myself to stay out of this .... but my passion for caching and hunting keeps bringing me back into the discussion. I'd rather Educate than Hate.

 

If I can be of any further assisatance .... just ask. ImpalaBob

[+benjamin921]

 

I will DISABLE the series during Fall Turkey, Spring Gobbler, and Deer Seasons to keep both hunters and geocachers SAFE.

May as well put Bear season in there as well.

 

Don't forget that in the spring turkey season (April 29th - May 27th), hunting turkey is only allowed from one-half hour before sunrise until noon and the hunters must be out of the woods no later than 1:00 p.m. (This is not really for you Bob but for others that do not know).

 

The more people are educated on the matter the better we all will be.

[+olbluesguy]

I have been looking into some of the caches that these terrorist don't like.

Roaring Brook cache

Placed 10/12/02----------------------------------37 visits in 42 months that's 3 1/2 years folks

Last visited in fall hunting season

2006.....none

2005.....none

2004.....2 visits

2003.....1 visit

2002.....3visits ..5 people

 

That's 6 visits by 8 different people in fall hunting season in 1260 days.

What is it they want ,No geocaches,or no Geocachers?

[Gear Boy]

There is a proposal by the PA Game Commission to start charging a fee for access by any users of SGL. Apparently the number of hunters in PA has been on the decline, and the PGC is meant to be self-supported by hunting and fishing licenses. I have not been too keen on this, but if it protects our right to use the SGL equally, it might actually be a good thing. Maybe send the communiques to Rep. Bruce Smith's office to indicate that if the hunters are going to take this sort of tone with other users now, then steps should be taken to codify the rights of other users without impinging on the hunters'.

[+Polgara]

I really wish this entire thread would just dissappear. I don't understand why it is so important to people in this thread to educate, educate, educate the PA SGL. They've known about caching for some time now, they didn't just fall off the turnip truck. Caching didn't start last year. Right now, there isn't a policy on caching and getting permits, for SGL.

 

SO WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE TRYING TO CREATE THAT????

 

LET IT GO!!!!!

 

If people keep contacting the SGL and being a thorn in their side, they're going to act on geocaching, and create some sort of policy, with more rules, etc. Is that what you all want?

 

And as far as this comment made by ImpalaBob:

 

"Geocachers are ignorant of the complexity of the actual laws governing the use of gamelands"

 

I totally disagree with you. I know alot of cachers that are well aware of the SGL rules and regs. I know alot of cachers that are hunters, hikers that are in hiking clubs, Cavers, and Naturalists, that DO know about the SGLs. And I think to envelope all Geocachers in your statement is, rude.

 

I also disagree to stay out of the gamelands during hunting season. I have talked with several hunters, and they are not as against caching as you might think. They see an advantage by the geocachers getting the animals to "move" when they are stagnant. Just know that if you hiking for a cache during hunting season, to wear orange and take precautions.

 

However....I would recommend staying out of the gamelands during Rifle season.

[+bottlecap]

I am a deer hunter, and personally wouldn't be out in the woods first day, even as a hunter. IN MY OPINION, there are too many nit-wits out there with guns. I like to call myself a "second week hunter".

If you insist on being out in the woods on hunter's treasured days, please be S.A.F.E.!

I know I have a right to be out there, but like the bigger picture better.

Edited April 29, 2006 by bottlecap

[+scole]

I would agree with everyone who says that we shouldn't bug the PGA but I think that the local Gamelands authorities should be notified of what these guys are doing. The local hunters should not do what they are doing... I think the best way to handle it is too notify Geocaching about what they are doing and have their account deleted. I am also pretty sure that Geocaching logs IP ( the internet address that any user uses that will let them to trace things like this) If so that is the best way to fix it. Get the account deleted and find out who it is.

[+Team_LPD]

I received a very disturbing e-mail the other day which I first thought was a practical joke. I have since found out it is not. Apparently a rogue group of disgruntled hunters have banded together and are removing caches on PA Gamelands #57 The following is the e-mail I received. What should be done?

 

The Gamelanmic Jihad has directed you to remove all your unauthorized chaches from SLG 57 no later than 12:00 Noon Saturday 29 April 2006 or become at risk to be taken hostage.

 

The infidels known as Big Boulder (CGH8YZ), The Stack (CGH93D, Cool It #1 plus 1-A (CGRZ6W), Cool It #2 (CGV6T8), and Roaring Brook (CG9AA1) are presently being held hostage. Although unharmed their safety is incumbent on the timely removal of these remaining infidels.

 

If these demands are not met the current hostages and future hostages will meet Allah at the bottom of a dumpster where all this garbage belongs in the first place.

 

The infidel known as Sorber Views has been given temporary reprieve.

 

When our demands are met we will contact all owners with instructions to take custody of this property.

 

This is not a request. Remove your garbage from our gamelands or be subject to our justice.

 

Thank you,

 

Cervo Selvacito IV

Jihad Chairman

 

This guy is a horses rear end. I've been a hunter for many years, and only started geocaching this year. For this guy to claim the SGL's as "ours" (hunters) is arrogant and uncalled for. First, the caches are not garbage and can not be found unless you have a GPS or stumble upon them. Its not like a bright orange ammo box hung froma tree branch. I see far more garbage left behind by hunters than anyone else. I've found some great new hunting areas thanks to geocachers.

 

If you ask me, this group sounds like a bunch of teenage kids who stumbled upon the geocaching web site and have decided to play games. If they play games, then certain caches will have to be made members only. Let them fork over some money to try and continue their game.

[+benjamin921]

 

I also disagree to stay out of the gamelands during hunting season. ...

 

However....I would recommend staying out of the gamelands during Rifle season.

So are we supposed to stay out or not?

[+dirtymartini]

 

If you ask me, this group sounds like a bunch of teenage kids who stumbled upon the geocaching web site and have decided to play games. If they play games, then certain caches will have to be made members only. Let them fork over some money to try and continue their game.

Unfortunately. These are all grown men. Physically, not mentally!

[+dirtymartini]

FYI Only around 50% of SGLs are public access. You can NOT just go hiking anyplace you want. Where public access is the norm .... such as the Appalachian Trail .... Safety Zones are set up to seperate hunting from public access. Propagation Zones prohibit ANY ACCESS except PGC officials, and may be yearly or seasonally regulated. Signs are well posted!

 

Having been involved in these recent threads brings me to 2 major conclusions:

 

Geocachers are ignorant of the complexity of the actual laws governing the use of gamelands.

 

These Jihad cache terrorists are ignorant of the law ..... period.

 

 

We have a PGC Program called SPORT. Sportsmen Policing Our Ranks Together. These "Jihad" are operating outside the law. If any of you choose to report these individuals you should mention the SPORT program.

 

 

I am deeply offended by the "Jihad" name they are using!!!!!

 

I will be placing a series of caches on a local very small gameland. I will be posting the links to the PGC and the Hunting Digest. I will be using these caches as a means to educate cachers about the gamelands. I will explain the general area of the caches and the propogation areas in their vicinity. I will provide parking coordinates and a trail route. Caches will be placed very close to the trails and cleverly hid. I will DISABLE the series during Fall Turkey, Spring Gobbler, and Deer Seasons to keep both hunters and geocachers SAFE. As a PAGC Hunter Trapper Education Instructor I believe I can accomplish this and provide my fellow cachers with a nice safe hike and also keep the hunters I have licensed happy.

 

If you are considering relocating your existing gameland caches .... please consider the Safety Zone areas that are near the perimeters and also the Safety Zones surrounding public access trails and roads. Placing caches deep in prime hunting areas is really not a very good idea!

 

Hunter Orange hats are usually the cheapest hats you can purchase in any sporting goods store. Wearing that hat might just save your life.

 

I keep telling myself to stay out of this .... but my passion for caching and hunting keeps bringing me back into the discussion. I'd rather Educate than Hate.

 

If I can be of any further assisatance .... just ask. ImpalaBob

 

Impala Bob has some good points. I wouldn't use the term ignorant....maybe mis-informed. Staying out of the GameLands during hunting season is just good common sense. I use to be an avid hunter and would avoid the Gamelands the first few days of Antlered deer season, there are just too many itchy trigger fingers out there. Not too mention the distance a high powered rifle projectile will travel.

[+Polgara]

 

I also disagree to stay out of the gamelands during hunting season. ...

 

However....I would recommend staying out of the gamelands during Rifle season.

So are we supposed to stay out or not?

 

Clarifiy....I am not uncomfortable to cache in the SGLs during bow season, as long as i have my orange on, and the dog has her orange on.

 

I don't go in the SGL during rifle season, at all. I don't wish to be shot at.

[+Caching Carriers]

I think everyone needs to have respect for others. If I got up at 4:30 am to go out bow hunting and at 9:00am here comes some people there dog ect ect and they start ripping up logs flipping rocks....well needless to say I would be a little upset.

[+dirtymartini]

UPDATE

 

I have been negotiating and having a sensible dialogue with the leader of this movement. After the both of us toning down our e-mails and discussing this like educated adults (at least one of them is) we have come to an agreement. I agreed to include a statement in my cache description explaing how most of the funding for the Game Lands comes from the hunters license fees, tags etc. He agreed to us not disabling our caches, but including in the statement that from October through January we limit our caching to Sundays, and during the Month of May, cache any day of the week after 12:00 noon. The rest of the year there are no limitations. This only goes for Game Lands #57, the area these hunters frequent.

I am hoping the other owners of caches on these lands will follow suit. If we work together with the hunters things will go a lot smoother.

Edited April 30, 2006 by dirtymartini