dirtymartini

I spoke with a Jim Creasy in the Harrisburg Game Commission office about geocaching. According to him, geocaching is considered ILLEGAL on Game Commission lands. While he didn't come out and say it I got the impression we are tolerated right now as long as there are no complaints. He also mentioned they are working on making it legal, but they are short staffed and it is not on the top of their agenda. I will not be placing any more caches on game lands until all of this gets sorted out. The following are sections in the code where we would be in violation. § 135.41. State game lands. (19) Use State game lands for any personal, organizational or commercial purpose other than the intended use as defined in section 722 of the act. Sec. 2510. Littering and restrictions on vehicles. (a) General rule. - It is unlawful for any person while hunting or furtaking or while on lands or waters open to hunting or furtaking to: (1) Deposit or leave any garbage, bottles, cartons, containers, glass, paper or other rubbish or debris other than in a place or receptacle maintained for that purpose. The provisions of this paragraph shall not apply to any spent shotgun shell or spent rifle shell casing which is ejected during normal hunting activities. ( Penalties. - (1) When litter is transported from another location and is deposited on lands or waters open to hunting or furtaking, the violation is a summary offense of the third degree. Any person convicted of a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall pay twice the fine imposed for the first offense. A conviction for a violation of this section shall not bar any civil action by the property owner. (2) Except as provided in paragraph (1), any other violation of this section is a summary offense of the seventh degree. (3) In addition to the fine imposed by section 925 (relating to jurisdiction and penalties), an additional fine of $10 may be imposed for each item of litter thrown, discarded, left, emitted or deposited in violation of this section. © Definition. - As used in this section, the term "Normal hunting activities" shall not include a circumstance when a person has fired more than six rounds from a stationary position. This is a link to a bill that would allow Sunday hunting that will further complicate things. http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/BI/AL...05/0/HB0904.HTM

As I have said before...I don't agree with their methods and tactics. But you are wrong on this statement"Limiting the use of game lands would mean LESS tax dollars or tolerance for funding the lands " This is straight from the Game Commissions website; Funded primarily by hunting and furtaker license sales; State Game Lands timber, mineral and oil/gas revenues; and a federal excise tax on sporting arms and ammunition; the Commission is almost entirely supported by hunters and trappers, or assets that have been procured with license dollars. The Commission does not receive state General Fund appropriations.

OK, I stand corrected. I have read that section of the code though. I guess it all depends on how the Enforcement officer wants to iterpret it. Like I said earlier, the NE regional office isn't really on our side. I felt I had two choices, either remove my caches before someone else did, or work with them. I chose the latter.

You don't have to do any of that. Geocaching with the SGL went through Harrisburg a few years ago, (in other words, this regional officer's BOSS has already discussed this and they didn't have a problem with it. SGL is public land, people participate in many activities on it, including horseback riding, snow mobiling, birdwatching, etc and there is no reason why you should have to mention any of the info about hunting liscenses on your cache page. I agree about mentioning the hunting seasons, and times, as many cachers appreciate that for their own safety, myself included, but no way would i mention hunting liscenses. Geocachers don't take anything out of the gamelands, we're not bringing home a load of deer meat. JUst because you pay for a hunting licsense doesn't mean you OWN the gameland, or have priority over others that want to use it. My dad has a boating licsense...that doesn't mean he has any kind of ownership over the ocean. People sea kayak on it, surf in it, and surf fish in it, and don't pay to use the ocean. I don't see a difference in caching vs hunting. If you're hunting and a cacher comes by, well it happens. If my dad is fishing and a school of bottle nose dolphins swim by and eat all the fish, well, it happens. Its called a bad day. I have a cache in a Maryland Bay, according to the rules this person is feeding you, I should also put on my cache page, "by the way if a boater is on the island, please leave, he paid for the boating liscense you didn't, he has more priviliege to be there. Please leave the island.....no way, no way. No, I don't HAVE to do any of it...BUT, if I don't, caches will turn up missing...and I don't feel like continually replacing them. I felt it a lot easier to work out an agreement than go to war with them. After the tone of their demands settled down and we talked, what they wanted wasn't unreasonable. I use to be a very active hunter, and I can understand some of their points. If you're hunting and a cacher comes by, well it happens. This is called disturbing a hunt, and is deemed an illegal activity by the Game Commission. If you were another hunter walking through that's OK, you would be actively hunting. If you are walking through the area caching, during hunting season while someone is actively hunting, that is considered illegal. Check with the PA Game Commission. There are rules as to how and when certain activities can take place. Just because we are residents of PA, doesn't give us the right to go whereverer we want in the gamelands and do whatever we want. I am not taking the hunters side now just looking at both sides of the equation. It would be very easy for the Game Commission to turn around and say "No more caching on Game Lands" because we have had too many complaints from hunters. I have worked out this agreement so this very vocal group doesn't start a statewide campaign to put an end to caching. Remember, there are probably a lot more hunters in PA than cachers.

I agree, I don't want to set a precedent here with policy on gamelands. I am walking the Razor's edge, part of me wants to tell them to F*** off, but the other part reels me back in and tells me to compromise, as I have to live in the same area and use the same Game Lands. I have a pretty good idea who their spokesperson is now and he is far from being a teenager. While they certainly can't dictate policy, they can make the caching experience miserable in this area.

UPDATE I have been negotiating and having a sensible dialogue with the leader of this movement. After the both of us toning down our e-mails and discussing this like educated adults (at least one of them is) we have come to an agreement. I agreed to include a statement in my cache description explaing how most of the funding for the Game Lands comes from the hunters license fees, tags etc. He agreed to us not disabling our caches, but including in the statement that from October through January we limit our caching to Sundays, and during the Month of May, cache any day of the week after 12:00 noon. The rest of the year there are no limitations. This only goes for Game Lands #57, the area these hunters frequent. I am hoping the other owners of caches on these lands will follow suit. If we work together with the hunters things will go a lot smoother.

Impala Bob has some good points. I wouldn't use the term ignorant....maybe mis-informed. Staying out of the GameLands during hunting season is just good common sense. I use to be an avid hunter and would avoid the Gamelands the first few days of Antlered deer season, there are just too many itchy trigger fingers out there. Not too mention the distance a high powered rifle projectile will travel.

Unfortunately. These are all grown men. Physically, not mentally!

Well gee, I called them rednecks and got slammed...but the term "thug" is universal and acceptable I suppose. I sure didn't slam you for this! They are all that and more. Apparently my sarcasm in a previous post has been misunderstood. *Their* personal approach by sending these disgusting emails with reference to any type of so-called *Jihad* and *hostage*...was disrespectful to Americans in general IMMHO. Even the "rednecks" that I had mentioned are more respectful than that. In fact, I can't imagine any red blooded American redneck allowing someone in their midst even uttering those words without opening a big ole' can of whoop butt. I can handle drunken hunters any day, I can handle a joke, but anyone that wants to use terrorist terminology and have me treat them with some type of respect? NO. Couldn't agree more. The use of the term "Jihad" and the overall inflection of terrorist overtones reaches beyond the worst possible cause they could have chosen to be named after. This struck a nerve with me, as it should with any legal resident of the USA

I agree, we need to tread lightly. I did place a call to the northeast region and based on the tone and inflection in the officers voice when I mentioned Geocaching I could tell I wasn't going to get much help. Sometimes I think the PGC is as heavy handed as the "Gamelanmic Jihad." In the interest of everyones safety and the future of Geocaching on SGL's, I am going to hammer out a compromise with these terrorists. I call them terrorists because of their heavy handed way they approached this. If they would have contacted me and opened a friendly dialogue things would have gone much smoother. I guuess it depends on how far each individual has climbed on the evolutionary ladder. Some of these thugs are still on the bottom rung. I know who some of these people are, and they have tried controlling these game lands like it was their own private hunting grounds for years. What we need to do as a group is lobby our elected officials and see if there isn't a way to have a written policy on Geocaching on SGL's. If someone could draft a letter, would could all send it to our respective State representives through e-mail. Any thoughts on this?

I am on total agreement with you on this. I would even go as far as disabling the caches during hunting seasons, which I have proposed to the terrorists from which the e-mail came.

First off if hunters are poaching on your property you have the right to call the police and get them removed. One thing you will want to do is find out what car/truck they are driving and get the plate number. I'm not sure how the laws are against poaching in PA but in MD if you arae caught you will lose your gun, car/truck, and possible more. This is what is known as interfering with a legal hunt (provided they are on SGL) and is illegal. I agree, that is the law in Pa. We have to respect their right to hunt also. That would be a sure way of getting thrown off the game lands which is just what they want. This is just down right ignorant. How can you think all hunters are like this? Open your eyes and you will see that most hunters are good people and not a bunch of drunk rednecks. It's always the few that spoil it for the many

Here is the latest offerings from "Gamelanmic Jihad" I'm glad to hear you decided to think about it. It's obvious there are some points that we will never agree upon but it's always best to find things that can be agreed on as a good starting point. As a little history lesson the geocachers on SGL 57 have been under watch since their inception. There were rumblings back in 03 or 04. Some wanted them removed but a decision was made to watch them and see what happens. There was little activity and the number remained at only 3. Then more caches were deposited then you started dropping them all over the place. You caused a panic so a decision was made to pull the plug on you guys. Fortunately for you trout season came and fishing for trout became more important than fishing for geocaches. Turkey season is here and since we're back in the woods it seems only logical to finish our mission. There have been some that have advocated a zero tolerance policy. Lucky for you guys most don't own a GPS and/or a computer otherwise they all the caches would have been history. I can't make any offers without deliberations. There has been a discussion to overlook caches that don't interfere with hunters. They will have to advise cachers to avoid during hunting season. This is only in the discussion phase and will be incumbent on your actions. I personally have an idea to relocate some or consolidate. There are spots on the mountain that are good caching locations that would be technically exempt from hijacking because they would not be on the game lands. There might also be a chance to place some on Clean & Green and/or North Branch Land Trust. There's a lot you can't tell just from reading a topo map. There are many things you don't know about the mountains or the forces that come to play. I'm going to tell you a secret about one of your caches which will surprise you...but not now. You obviously underestimate the number of PA hunters. There aren't enough geocachers on the planet if the hunters object. I don't buy or will anyone else buy your excuse that these caches cannot be removed by the deadline. I do not have the authority to extend any deadlines. A good faith effort to start the removal could be used as leverage for an extension but again I can't make any promises. I would highly recommend the removal of Beach Lake as that has really set off one of the more vocal members. Just as another little history lesson the original name of Beach Lake was Bean Lake named after the Bean family of Noxen. Can't really tell you how the name got changed. No doubt some flat lander. Formulate an offer and I will move it forward for consideration. The next Jihad council meeting is scheduled for Friday night at Torchy's Noxen Inn prior to the opening day of turkey season. Have a nice day, Cervo Selvatico IV Jihad Chairman

Sorry, their profile is "Gamelanmic Jihad" only a member since April 14th

The problem: that is not 100% accurate. There is no official sanction of Geocaching on PA State Gamelands. At best we are considered tolerated guests. Some regions have a dimmer view of us. The hunters do provide MOST of the revenue to fund the Gamelands. There is limited outside funding for some Gameland projects, but they are very quiet about that. Except when they encourage hunters to vote for initiatives that will benefit them. I also think openly challenging the tenacity of a group of disgruntled Pennsylvania "Sportsmen", is unwise. What you said is true, we are tolerated guests. But that doesn't give them the right to dictate Game Commission policy. I don't know if it's disgruntled hunters or not, just my guess.

See my post in the Northeast regional forum

And by-the-way, The "Gamelamnic Jihad" has an account here on Geocaching.com I guess that is how they found all the caches.

I received a very disturbing e-mail the other day which I first thought was a practical joke. I have since found out it is not. Apparently a rogue group of disgruntled hunters have banded together and are removing caches on PA Gamelands #57 The following is the e-mail I received. What should be done? The Gamelanmic Jihad has directed you to remove all your unauthorized chaches from SLG 57 no later than 12:00 Noon Saturday 29 April 2006 or become at risk to be taken hostage. The infidels known as Big Boulder (CGH8YZ), The Stack (CGH93D, Cool It #1 plus 1-A (CGRZ6W), Cool It #2 (CGV6T8), and Roaring Brook (CG9AA1) are presently being held hostage. Although unharmed their safety is incumbent on the timely removal of these remaining infidels. If these demands are not met the current hostages and future hostages will meet Allah at the bottom of a dumpster where all this garbage belongs in the first place. The infidel known as Sorber Views has been given temporary reprieve. When our demands are met we will contact all owners with instructions to take custody of this property. This is not a request. Remove your garbage from our gamelands or be subject to our justice. Thank you, Cervo Selvacito IV Jihad Chairman

The iPAQ I'm working on uses Windows CE and I don't think GPX Sonar supports that OS. I'm wondering if thats the problem with GPX View also?

I'm trying to set up my friends iPAQ 3635 with GPX view. I have it installed, but when I load a .gpx file into the iPAQ it says "File was empty" Any Ideas ???? I posted this in the software section, but didn't get a response, I thought maybe somedody here might have an idea...

I'm trying to set up my friends iPAQ 3635 with GPX view. I have it installed, but when I load a .gpx file into the iPAQ it says "File was empty" Any Ideas ????

I'm glad to see it's not just me, I think I'll contact Garmin also and see what they have to say. Keep me posted on your reults.

That's exactly what I was thinking I should do, I was just waiting for someone else to say they have done it and it works...Thanks....anybody else have suggestions ?

OK, I checked and it is set to bearing pointer. Now back to my original question...for the setting where the unit changes to compass heading based on speed. should I have it at the default setting of less than 10 mph for more than 90 seconds ?