Imitating An Officer?

January 11, 2006

ok, first thing, i know theres better places i could ask this besides geocaching forums. but i know there are geocaching police officers here that probaly can hep me out. and plus, ill be doing it while geocaching, so, on to the topic.

i seem to enjoy getting out and hiking more and more everytime i go. geocaching helps find me new destinations, and give me that second reason to actually get out. but i mainly enjoy just being out in the woods. it seems that more often than not i find myself on these excursions alone. now ive never had a bad incident, but its in the back of my mind. all it takes is one time running into some drunken crazies out ridin their horses or atvs and decide youre an easy target way out in BFE to ruin a good time. so ive been thinking of ways to lessen that chance.

i know first rule is to not be an easy target. when im out im always very alert, always looking around. more for wildlife and the scenery than to look for people, but im observant. i almost always hear people long before i see them. im also a fairly big guy. 6ft tall, 240lbs, im no lightweight, but im not nessecarily a fighter.

second i guess would be to carry some form of defense. i always have my hiking stick, which could be used for defense. i always have at least 1 knife on me, so im not completely unarmed. but its no match for a gun. and im not really a "gun" person, so its really not an option to pack heat.

so its back to making myself appear like a bad target. whats the worst person to attack? of course, a LEO. :laughing:

now im not wanting to go out in a unform or anything. and of course id never actually impersonate an officer. but if i were to have a conservation officer patch on my backpack? or maybe wear a hat? COULD anything bad come of this lawfully speaking?

anyone who stumbled upon me and my GPS would at first glance figure i was doing something official. i wouldnt throw it at anyone, use it for any wrong doing, flash it around or anything. i just simply want to dress my backpack with official patches. would this be illegal?

January 11, 2006

Nothing illegal about being the crazy guy out in the woods with patches on his backpack. :laughing:

9.1k · January 11, 2006

When doing a "hiking" cache, I wear green hiking pants, a green shirt, a green vest, and a green GC.com hat. The vest has a "Conservation Volunteer" patch on it, with the official logo of my State's Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. (I proudly wear that patch for organizing and participating at CITO events in State Parks, and being a trail maintenance volunteer.) Plus, I'm wearing a cellphone and maybe an FRS radio, and carrying a GPS receiver.

I have learned that one way to avoid looking suspicious is to stand out, and not be shy about that. People see what looks like a uniform and an official patch, and often stop me to ask for directions or information about the park! I am very rarely questioned by law enforcement and the volunteer patch gives me some credibility with them. Yet, I am not "impersonating" anyone.

When I'm hiking in a park with which I am familiar, it is fun to stop and talk with other hikers, and to answer any questions they may have. If I say it's a quarter mile to the junction with the Red Trail, they tell their kid to say thank you to the nice park ranger. But once, I said "I have absolutely no idea where the nearest rest room is," because I had never been in the park where I was hunting for a cache. As she walked away, the lady who asked me that question said to her husband, "Boy, they just can't get good help these days, it must be because of budget cuts."

2.7k · January 11, 2006

In general, impersonating an officer requires intent to get something from someone by deception. Ferinstance you try to get a discount at Frisch's by wearing a uniform. Or you try to get someone to follow you for nefarious reasons. Or you try to collect a "fine" or some such nonsense that anyone with half a brain should recognize as a scam.

If you can legally wear the patch (check local laws carefully before wearing a REAL patch), and you are not actively soliciting anyone to respect your alleged authority, then what or who they think you are is their business. If anyone asks you need to explain in a way that makes it clear you do not have any special authority.

I look pretty official myself, but I avoided buying a "State Police" hat at the local flea market just because of the perception it might give. My primary consideration in that decision is that I work with the State Police and there are many of them with differing opinions of what that hat would mean.

Thus is the one drawback. Even though technically wearing an "official" logo might be perfectly legal, under the right circumstances you may well get hassled.

Also consider this:

What are you going to do if the "bad guy" you hoped to fool calls your bluff?

1.1k · January 11, 2006

Been a cop for 35 yrs and you can take the following for whatever you want:

1) You are more likely to run into "crazies" in an urban environment than rural. It's not Deliverance.

2) If you wear anything that might even remotely give the appearance you're some kind of law enforcement officer, people will assume you are armed. If you do run into someone intent on causing you harm, and they assume you are armed, they will likely strike first, figuring to neutralize the threat to them. You just played the buff game and lost. Likely if they assume you are not armed then they are not at such a high level of intensity either and instead of attacking to counter a perceived weapon they are likely just to buff and threaten.

3) If someone was intent on causing you harm, a patch on a backpack or a hat will likely not be what they'll be focusing on.

4) If someone was intent on robbing you, they most likely will just take your valuables and run. They do not want any kind of physical confrontation, as such also places them at risk of coming out on the short end.

5) Knives are not a good self defense tool unless you've received some training, and repeated training, in their use. We teach if you go hands on with a knife you're going to be cut, doesn't matter who has the knife. We train to press the fight even tho cut. And if you haven't had any kind of weapons retention training then it's a good possibility the weapon will easily be taken from you and used against you. We see where someone has had their weapon taken from them that the attacker automatically and almost immediately uses that weapon against the person, almost as a reaction. Those attacks are usually severe, nasty, and all too often deadly.

6) You carry a walking stick. Walk with it like you know what you're doing with it. Practice. However, do not use it as a striking weapon. Walking sticks seldom have enough weight to cause much injury. Use the stick to jab and perry. You can cause a lot more damage to an attacker by jabs and your aim on target will be better.

What we teach in defensive tactics is to look like you are aware. Walk like you mean business and are confident in yourself. Studies have shown that criminals target and prey on the weak. It's no different than the lion culling the herd of gazelle. The criminals will seek out the weak and those who they believe they can overcome. If the target appears to be confident, looks them in the eye, doesn't show or smell of fear, then most likely they'll pass you on and wait for the weak one in the herd.

If you are in an area where it is legal then pick up some OC pepper spray (what some people call MACE). There are all kinds and sizes of containers. Some not only disperse pepper spray but do it in a foam and others mark the target with a dye. You can pick up cans of it that fit on a key ring or size of a hair spray can. If it's legal where you are just get a size that you will carry all the time. A key ring size will have more than enough juice in it. But be careful. Just make sure if you decide to use it that you are actually being threatened and it's not just some friendly mentally disturbed person who is wanting a quarter. If you really aren't being threatened and you strike too soon then you become the aggressor and you'll be in trouble.

1.8k · January 11, 2006

Just as a point of interest - I took fencing in college and my instructor mentioned what he called "stick fighting". He always said - "Don't swing - poke and poke HARD and FAST". I've always shared this with folks when they say they carry walking staffs partly for personal protection.

Edited to add: Oh, and poking at someone's face is particularly off-putting. Not necessarily to make contact, just to keep them off balance. Remember, if you intend to make contact - poke THROUGH the target. Also be prepared to have it yanked away.

Edited January 11, 2006 by ATMouse

January 12, 2006

churchcampdave, i see your point on the "respect" issues of wearing gear reserved by most for deserving individuals whove earned the right to wear it, even if it is legal. i dont plan on getting any real official CO or PO gear. im really not wanting to take it that far, although i mentioned it in the post. i was just taking it a lil farther for sake of conversation.

like wadcutter brings up, i dont wanna be perceived as a LEO. LEO are presumed armed and i dont wanna be perceived as being armed. im not really wanting to "bluff" anyone.

i just wanna look somewhat "official" like lephrechan spoke of. throw a DNR hat on, and a couple of official looking patches on the backpack. it makes me look more like im supposed to be there, than a random hiker. if one would assume im there on "business" theyd probaly also assume someone knows im here and when im expected back, and possibly other "workers" are in the area.

or they throw caution into the wind and attack me anyways. not caring about anything but getting to the cache before me

wadcutter, i understand im much more likely to be attacked in the city. but people are around in a city, someone will hear me screaming or see the attack more than likely. but my screams wont be heard in the middle of the forest and only the squirrels will see the attack.

the knife, i carry, not as a defense tool, but just because theyre so darned handy. i just mentioned it. i have it should i need it, but its not the first thing id think of defending myself with. it would come after running.

ive thought about mace. ill check my local laws, im fairly sure its legal here in indiana. i saw it suggested by many hikers while searching the topic on hiking forums.

im a calm guy, peace loving guy. i wouldnt think of harming someone else unless they harmed me or i truely felt threatened. i know ill more than likely never encounter a situation where ill need to defend myself while hiking. but id rather be prepared than caught offgaurd.

January 12, 2006

I was a police officer and I can tell you to forget the knife when it comes to protection. Actually the best protection would be a safety whistle and running. Unless you are willing to detain the subject fleeing is best. If you can't flee, then take the advice of others and go for the soft spots. The face,groin,and knee. then when they back off or fall again run and blow the whistle. Yes you may be out in the middle of nowhere but they will be afraid that someone will be in the area and hear.

Oh and pepper spray will work on some semi-aggressive animals, but chose one that has an effective range of 5-10 feet

Edited January 12, 2006 by Davispak

22k · January 12, 2006

Good post Wadcutter

January 12, 2006

My walking stick has a 5" spike that is .25" steel for "picking up trash". Actually I am more concerned with running into an agressive stray dog than bad guys.

January 12, 2006

Has there ever been a documented instance of a geocacher being assaulted while on the hunt? I've certainly never heard of anything of the sort here in Texas, although it's possible I missed it. I did recently learn that a couple of Dallas-area cachers were shot at -- quite unintentionally, it seems -- by a stupid and/or drunk target shooter unaware of his surroundings. This seems unrelated to this particular discussion thread, however.

My view is that the odds of being involved in an automobile accident while travelling to the cache site are far higher than the odds of being accosted by a stranger in a park.

5.3k · January 12, 2006

I also dress to look like I am doing something official. But I also have my Ham radio on my belt and a police scanner turn on. This has worked for me. I even had someone ask me about parking ours in a local park as I got into my truck with three large antennas and a sign the door that reads "Amature a radioEmergancy communications" I just I had no idea what the hours were and they looked real puzzled as I drove off

24.7k · January 12, 2006

Has there ever been a documented instance of a geocacher being assaulted while on the hunt? I've certainly never heard of anything of the sort here in Texas, although it's possible I missed it. I did recently learn that a couple of Dallas-area cachers were shot at -- quite unintentionally, it seems -- by a stupid and/or drunk target shooter unaware of his surroundings. This seems unrelated to this particular discussion thread, however.

My view is that the odds of being involved in an automobile accident while travelling to the cache site are far higher than the odds of being accosted by a stranger in a park.

There are a few posts in the forums on it. Some smash and grabs of cars at trail heads or at home. A couple a little more serious. Nothing common but something that makes you pay attention.

1.1k · January 12, 2006

Boy are you paranoid. And actually if the folks you mentioned are out they may be more likely to take a shot at an LEO, LOL. I have lived most my life roaming the woods and the only time I am ever worried is in the big city,

cheers

January 12, 2006

Only problem I ever had other than coming accross some rainbow people in the middle of the trail worshiping the sun god(hippies sunbathing)was when I got back to the trailhead and my car was surrounded by broken glass and everything insidethat wasn't nailed down was gone. most crimes in parks and wilderness areas are because someone knows your going to be away from your vehicle for awhile and it's an esy smash and grab.

2.5k · January 12, 2006

Yes, I seem to recall there was, but since the search isn't working I can't point you there.

If I recall, some predator was attracted to a geocacher and assaulted him. I can't remember if there was a reason why he was singled out, maybe the way he was dressed or the way he walked, etc. Maybe it was at a pickle park. Whatever it was, it would be a good idea not to do what he does or was doing. Luckily, he was able to escape.

I usually find that the people I run into in the woods are more afraid of me than I am of them. Maybe it's my face, LOL! However, at 6 foot and 240 lbs, I can't imagine anyone wanting a piece of you.

The previous comments about showing confidence rather than fear will take you a long way. I don't think any badges, uniforms, or pretty patches are going to do much good if you still show fear. People can see right past any exterior adornments you might be wearing.

3k · January 12, 2006

I'm fairly new so I've recently read and reread some of the basic rules of geo do's and don'ts. One of the first things it says is to go with a friend if you're going into the woods. There's safety in numbers and not just for self-defense. Having a partner is great for many reason the least not being protection, first aid, encouragement, and someone else to carry the camera Seriously though, bring a friend. They don't have to be a cacher to enjoy exercise and beautiful scenery. -F&tH

January 12, 2006

In addition to the other warnings above, I would add that it might not always be a good idea to appear to be some type of DNR-type officer. Remember that these people do have some authority in the outdoor arena. There are from time to time, people out in the woods who are doing things that they shouldn't be doing (poaching, growing illegal crops, setting illegal traps, etc)--the last person that they want to run into would be an official, and seeing you walk around the corner looking like the person who could arrest or fine them, might cause you more trouble than if they ran into "a guy just out for a walk in the woods".

I don't think I would go out of my way to appear to be anything other than what you are---a healthy young adult male, not looking for any trouble.

January 12, 2006

There are a few posts in the forums on it. Some smash and grabs of cars at trail heads or at home. A couple a little more serious. Nothing common but something that makes you pay attention.

Then again any time you go out and about regardless of the reason we should be paying attention :unsure:

January 12, 2006

The pepper spray ( more for attacking anamils ) ( check your local regulations before ) and the "buddy system" are proably the two most appropiate methods in my opinion.

As well just because your on the trail take your mobile phone and or HAM / Family Band / 2-way radio, it could help save a life.

A good pocket flash light like a Surefire or head lamp could get the attention of an air serch if your ever enjured or lost in the woods!

Be safe!

January 13, 2006

Has there ever been a documented instance of a geocacher being assaulted while on the hunt? I've certainly never heard of anything of the sort here in Texas, although it's possible I missed it. I did recently learn that a couple of Dallas-area cachers were shot at -- quite unintentionally, it seems -- by a stupid and/or drunk target shooter unaware of his surroundings. This seems unrelated to this particular discussion thread, however.

My view is that the odds of being involved in an automobile accident while travelling to the cache site are far higher than the odds of being accosted by a stranger in a park.

Here is one documented example:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=70282

2.7k · January 13, 2006

I don't think I would go out of my way to appear to be anything other than what you are---a healthy young adult male, not looking for any trouble.

Well, there is another benefit to looking "official". While it might be detrimental in a hostile encounter to look like a person of authority and not have the training and equipment to back it up, at least by looking "official" you will draw less attention to your "suspicious" activity of carefully inspecting/looking/prodding/probing and finding the cache.

It might be better to look like a "tree inspector" or a "trail maintenance man" or a "bird watcher" or someone like that who is not inherently threatening to a "bad guy". In the woods, I would especially avoid looking like a conservation officer- many of the people who don't like them are armed. They face this risk every day.

Myself, I like to carry a clipboard or notebook and I probe around the roots and pull a few leaves off trees and look at them carefully if anyone is looking.

But being attacked (by anything other than dogs) is not in my top ten list of worries afield. I can't think of any uniform or insignia that will make the dogs think twice- maybe a dog catcher patch? :antenna:

January 13, 2006

One of the best non-lethal defenseive weapons you can have is a Surefire (or similar) flashlight. I have a Z2 which puts out 65 lumens - more than enough to temporarily blind and disorient an attacker while leaving no permanent damage and best of all - NO EVIDENCE! :antenna:

If you're feeling a bit more froggy - Surefire has models which put out 110 lumens (and even more powerful models) that can cause permanent damage.

Check out this link for some examples of light being used for defense from both man and beast.

Edited January 13, 2006 by paintfiction

January 13, 2006

Walking sticks seldom have enough weight to cause much injury. Use the stick to jab and perry. You can cause a lot more damage to an attacker by jabs and your aim on target will be better.

Awesome advice.

But the first thing that came to my mind was Daffy Duck with his quarter staff (actually it was a buck and a quarter staff, but we won't tell him that) :antenna: and it made me laff.

Not dogging you. Just having fun.

IR

2.7k · January 14, 2006

In my TKD class we are now training with sticks. Quite an interesting traditional weapon; they are bamboo and about 3 feet long. Can be used for all kinds of strikes and pokes and you get to look like Jackie Chan...well maybe a little... OK a ladder is a bit big to carry :laughing:

I am considering carrying one of these on cache hikes. It is also good for poking around in places where you shouldn't go poking around.

Imitating An Officer?

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