Dnf Or Not

November 4, 2005

I recently searched for a multi and after finding the 1st stage had to abandon the remaining stages for lack of time so I posted a note to this effect, I read a few logs back that a previous searcher had looked for the 1st stage also but since he only looked for 2 min he couldn't claim a dnf on it, IMO if you arrive at the cords and begin to look and don't find be 2 min or 2 days it would be a dnf, what do you think. Also I only posted a note that I found stage one should I have posted a dnf since I didn't complete the multi even though I stopped short of searching for the next stage.

November 4, 2005

i don't think you would need to log a DNF since you didn't look for the whole cache. if you went to the second WP and DNF it then i could see you loggin a DNF...leaving a note is what i would have done...i feel that if i log a DNF its because i believe the cache isn't there and would need to be checked by the owner. as a cache owner i wouldn't be hurt if someone didn't post a DNF, but if the cache needs to be checked thats when i would want people to post a DNF. but if you only searched for part of the cache then just post a note....DID I BABBLE

24.7k · November 4, 2005

Some people will log a DNF if they head out the door to hunt the cache but for any reason including a sale at the local Sporting Good store don't hunt the cache.

I will log a DNF if I give up the hunt. I will log a note if I can't finish the hunt due to running out of daylight, being chased off the property etc. My view is that a DNF should be related to the caches ability to elude my best efforts to find it. If my car breaks down, what's that got to do with the hide?

3.5k · November 4, 2005

How about DNF="Did Not Finish?"

I can see it either way, but I'd probably just log a note if I didn't have time to finish the hunt. I can see a DNF in that situation as being confusing to people who come along later and wonder if the cache is missing.

Bret

3.9k · November 4, 2005

I agree with RK. A DNF is meant to notify the owner that there may be a problem with the cache. Just because you ran out of time or it got dark, or you had to stop because it was time to go home and vaccum dosen't count as a DNF.

If on the other hand you searched the probable area for whatever time you deemed appropriate and gave up before finding the cache is a true DNF.

El Diablo

38.2k · November 4, 2005

A DNF is meant to notify the owner that there may be a problem with the cache.

I disagree. If you find a cache and there is a problem, do you log a DNF? Of course not. "Found It" and "DNF" are simply meant to indicate the result of your search.

In response the the OP, in those cases I would log a DNF. I started to look for the cache and didn't find it. The reason is immaterial. Note, or DNF, that's up to you. I think there are good arguments on both sides. You have to decide for yourself, but whatever you do log something. The owner wants to know if there are people out there looking for his cache.

My personal criteria are, if I punch in the coordinates, hit the GO TO button and come up empty, its a DNF. Some people will only log one if they actually reach the cache site and can't find it. That's fine too.

What I don't agree with are those who won't log a DNF unless they are sure the cache is missing, those who won't log one if it IS missing, or those who won't log if they plan on coming back. Its slightly annoying to get logs for my caches that say "Found it on my 3rd try", but there are no previous DNFs. Maybe I rated the cache a bit too easy. How am I supposed to know if people don't post their DNFs at all. But that's a rant for a whole 'nother thread.

Edited November 4, 2005 by briansnat

7.2k · November 4, 2005

A DNF is meant to notify the owner that there may be a problem with the cache.

I disagree. If you find a cache and there is a problem, do you log a DNF? Of course not. "Found It" and "DNF" are simply meant to indicate the result of your search.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Some folks would extend that to mean that even though they looked for two hours and didn't find the cache, they can't post a DNF because they don't know if there is a problem is a cache. (Remember the "I don't post a DNF on caches that end up being missing?")

The only question of posting a note or a DNF is what you are comfortable with in relation to how long you looked or what kind of effort you put into it.

Me, I rarely post a note. If I'm hunting a cache, I either find it or I don't. I'm going to post a log that reflects one of those two outcomes.

As far as the OP, I don't a problem with a note. There was no attempt at completing the hunt. IMHO and in this case, a note is only feedback about an ongoing hunt. I might do the same if ever I'm on a hunt that I want to leave feedback on but haven't had the time to complete it.

1.4k · November 4, 2005

I only log a DNF if I actually * tried * to go to and search for the cache and didn't find it, I figure if I get to go back again I can always put in a 2nd "found" log. I've seen some people do that.

My brother-in-law has an interesting take on it. If he didn't find it, but felt if he had more time that day to find and knows he'll go again, he'll just post it as a general note instead.

2.1k · November 4, 2005

This is a much discussed topic, with no "right" answers (except mine ).

I log a find if I find the cache and sign the log.

I log a did not find if I looked "long enough" (aye, there's the rub) to convince myself that the cache is not there, or hidden too well for me to find.

I log a note (or don't log anything at all) if I got out of my car with my GPSr turned on, but for some reason called off the hunt before "really" looking for the cache. I've called off hunts without logging DNFs for lots of reasons:

GPS died
sliced open foot
raunchy hide-area turned me off
my son, Ben, got injured or bored
fingertips turn pre-frostbite-gray

That's how I play the game, you should play the way you want to...

Edited November 4, 2005 by NFA

November 4, 2005

I will log a DNF if I give up the hunt. I will log a note if I can't finish the hunt due to running out of daylight, being chased off the property etc. My view is that a DNF should be related to the caches ability to elude my best efforts to find it.

Yup, that is about where I draw the line. If the cache eludes my ability to find it (I like that phrase, RK), whether the eluding is due to a clever hide or it is not there, then I DNF the cache.

There seems a lot of folks in my neck of the woods that are ashamed to log DNFs. In fact, I deliberately placed a cache in the vicinity of someone else's that was a toughie (nearly same ratings at that), and sure enough, folks logged mine, but not the other. Ya think they came to the park just to do one? Nope. The other way around, I got a tougie in the middle of a bunch of easy ones. Think folks came to town to do all but ONE cache? Nope. This last example is CONFIRMED, since folks keep an eye on the cache for me and let me know when cachers abort the hunt.

Sheesh, people, what is WRONG with DNFs? Are y'all that thin skinned that you cannot admit failure?!?!? I take pride in my DNFs, since they are a compliment to the hider in some cases, and also show I'm human (heck, a week or so ago I got a DNF that someone with 3 cache finds called "easy") and at times just have a bad day.

Lep came up with a nifty idea that I really liked, so I also log all my DNFs!

9.4k · November 4, 2005

I recently searched for a multi and after finding the 1st stage had to abandon the remaining stages for lack of time so I posted a note to this effect, I read a few logs back that a previous searcher had looked for the 1st stage also but since he only looked for 2 min he couldn't claim a dnf on it, IMO if you arrive at the cords and begin to look and don't find be 2 min or 2 days it would be a dnf, what do you think. Also I only posted a note that I found stage one should I have posted a dnf since I didn't complete the multi even though I stopped short of searching for the next stage.

Did you find it?

If answer = no

then log = DNF

38.2k · November 4, 2005

log a note (or don't log anything at all) if I got out of my car with my GPSr turned on, but for some reason called off the hunt before "really" looking for the cache. I've called off hunts without logging DNFs for lots of reasons:

* GPS died

* sliced open foot

* raunchy hide-area turned me off

* my son, Ben, got injured or bored

* fingertips turn pre-frostbite-gray

But those are the best kinds of logs!

November 4, 2005

We only play against our selves I would do the same thing if I found the first part of a multi but ran out of time had to go back to work but if i look and cant or dont find i log a DNF to me its the difference of not being ABLE to find vs not being able to complete and it lets the owner know that people are looking

11.3k · November 4, 2005

I started out to find a five-stage multi the other day. It covers about two miles. In that area, there are several other caches, so we decided to combine cache hunts during our hike to the waypoints.

At the end of a nearly four-hour hike, we had found five other caches, but only two of the five waypoints of the Multi. I logged a Note.

I only log a DNF if I've really looked for the cache. If people use GSAK as their database, a DNF leaves a red dot as a pictorial representation of the last log. A Note does not. If there are two DNFs in a row, I filter them out of the caches to search for on a caching trip.

Sometimes I'll read the logs for caches with two DNFs, but other times I don't have time. If both DNFs are by people who didn't actually search for the cache, the cache can get overlooked by future seekers . . .

I believe I read that TPTB stated that a DNF is supposed to alert the cache owner to a problem with the cache . . . it is a "cache maintenance alert."

November 4, 2005

I guess I'm one of the older, more forgetful cachers. I log a DNF as a reminder to myself that I didn't find it yet and that it is one I'd like to go back to. Then...I don't delete it after I find the cache. On a trip to Home Depot the other day, I had my husband drop me off at a new cache nearby. As my luck would have it....he didn't shop around at all and came right back. I logged a DNF. BUT...I felt like there had been a lot of people there looking because of the foot prints and dusturbed bushes. I didn't realize till I read the forums that a DNF is shameful and not just a tool for organizational purposes. So.....Am I supposed to delete the DNF once I find the cache or does it matter?

November 4, 2005

Someone logged a DNF on one of my hides without leaving their house. They sat down at their kitchen table and tried to figure out the puzzle, couldn't, and logged a DNF.

Quite often I check interesting caches I see mentioned in the forums. Using the criteria mentioned above, I've got several DNFs that are 3000 miles away from me that I have to log.

11.3k · November 4, 2005

I guess I'm one of the older, more forgetful cachers. I log a DNF as a reminder to myself that I didn't find it yet and that it is one I'd like to go back to. Then...I don't delete it after I find the cache. On a trip to Home Depot the other day, I had my husband drop me off at a new cache nearby. As my luck would have it....he didn't shop around at all and came right back. I logged a DNF. BUT...I felt like there had been a lot of people there looking because of the foot prints and dusturbed bushes. I didn't realize till I read the forums that a DNF is shameful and not just a tool for organizational purposes. So.....Am I supposed to delete the DNF once I find the cache or does it matter?

The DNF is part of the "history" of the cache so I wouldn't delete it. However, in the instance you describe, I probably would have logged a Note instead of a DNF.

That would still provide a reminder to you, but it doesn't alert the cache owner that the cache might be gone . . . since you didn't really look long enough to make that determination.

5k · November 4, 2005

I didn't realize till I read the forums that a DNF is shameful and not just a tool for organizational purposes.

Where did you read that a DNF is shameful?

Jamie

November 4, 2005

There seems a lot of folks in my neck of the woods that are ashamed to log DNFs.

Sorry...I didn't mean DNF's ARE shameful. Just that some people consider them so.

2.5k · November 4, 2005

If you make effort to find it and can't, then DNF..

And the people that don't DNF when they've searched... At least email the cache owner. Some people don't check their caches unless they think there's a problem.

3.8k · November 4, 2005

It's a DNF. No shame.

8k · November 4, 2005

It's a DNF. No shame.

By logging all your DNFs you can calculate your geocaching percentage (just like Lou Brock's stolen base percentage). By logging a DNF each time you looked but didn't find a cache, you have a record for everytime you looked for a cache. Divide your find count by the sum of your finds and the number of your DNF logs to get your geocaching percentage. My geocaching percentage is .874

1.1k · November 4, 2005

By logging all your DNFs you can calculate your geocaching percentage (just like Lou Brock's stolen base percentage). By logging a DNF each time you looked but didn't find a cache, you have a record for everytime you looked for a cache. Divide your find count by the sum of your finds and the number of your DNF logs to get your geocaching percentage. My geocaching percentage is .874

I do the same as you and log/keep track of them. Right now my found percentage is 0.917 but that's a little low. I log DNFs even if I found a cache and went with someone and it went missing.

3.8k · November 4, 2005

...Divide your find count by the sum of your finds and the number of your DNF logs to get your geocaching percentage. My geocaching percentage is .874

My game is currently .877.

Off Topic: I wonder why GC.com doesn't make it easier to see an account's DNFs?

November 4, 2005

number of your DNF logs to get your geocaching percentage. My geocaching percentage is .874

Hey, good idea! I worked on this stat for my DNF bookmark list and added the following for a more entertaining reading.

"DNF TOTAL STATS: In my short caching career, I have had 30 DNFs. 2 of these were returns to caches that I had previously found (one missing, one I just could not re-find). 5 were DNFs on caches that were missing. A total of 4 caches had multiple DNFs (all of which I eventually found, how is that for tenacity?). Discounting the 2 DNFs after a find, my current "batting" average on caches is .903."

Even with a great average, I do not expect to be called up to the Major League anytime soon.

November 4, 2005

and your dnf percentage does what???

November 4, 2005

and your dnf percentage does what???

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Percentage provided for extraneous diversion only. Please use at your own risk due to the percentage's potential to create angst.

November 4, 2005

and your dnf percentage does what???

We keep track of the percentage of physical caches we find on the first try. (Virtuals are excluded.) Although we list it in our profile, it is mainly for internal use only: over time, we would expect the percentage to increase as we become more proficient. (We are casual cachers, so we don't compile big numbers.) I suppose if someone really wanted to track his or her perfomance, you would have to "weight" each cache by its difficulty level. But let's not get crazy here.

2.1k · November 4, 2005

There are MANY situations where a DNF would not be necessary and a Note would be more appropriate.

Rather than having a rigid DNF policy it might be better to examine each situation and post the log type that appears most appropriate for the specific cache. I say contemplate what the affect on the cache will be rather than on what you need or how others might judge you for your choice of post.

I also think too many people get hung-up on the "shame" or "integrity" issues. If you don't post a DNF you are not a low-life skirting away from a moral responsibility as some make it sound to be. If you do post a DNF it doesn't mean that you are lacking in the proper geocache finding skills.

The specific cache should be the concern when choosing to post either a DNF or Note and not the specific geocacher.

November 4, 2005

I look at a DNF as evidence that I ran into a cache that presented me with an interesting challege. Call it a compliment to the owner.

I am always surprised by people who appear to think that if they looked for x minutes and didn't find the cache it means it isn't there. I am also surprised by how often I look for a half an hour cache without finding it, only to go back again and find it in 30 seconds--in a very obvious place.

I do, however, admit that I haven't been repeatedly adding a new DNF each and every time that I go out to the cache site IF all I did was to look in the same places that I looked that last time. I might log the first two or three, but after that it seemed redundant, so I just keep track and say how many times I went out to look on the last one. (Of course, if there appears to be a problem I do email the owner!). Now that I consider the option of calcuating my percentage of F to DNFs, I may reconsider that practice.

I would love for my DNFs to show up as a stat.

1.4k · November 4, 2005

Larry's coon hunting cache streched my limits but a DNF for every visit. I posted several DNF's for this cache, I did not want to punish the cache, I checked with the owner before doing what I did. I knew this one would take some time but I was going to find it one way or another.

2.1k · November 4, 2005

Divide your find count by the sum of your finds and the number of your DNF logs to get your geocaching percentage. My geocaching percentage is .874

Interesting. I have been using a percentage of DNF's rather than of finds. Now I've added three more caculations to my caching spreadsheet.

0.942 geocaching percentage - cache was not missing (less loc, virt & event)

0.897 geocaching percentage - all attempts (less loc, virt & event)

0.914 total geocaching percentage (incl loc, virt & event)

I don't include the following in my spreadsheet: 5 minute lame attempts, driveby's, thought about the cache at my computer but didn't go after it, parked at the river but didn't see where to cross, couldn't find a parking space, got bored before legitimate effort, etc., as these don't represent a ligitimate search effort.

10.1k · November 5, 2005

But, since there is no requirement, nor a hard and fast rule, I will choose when I log a DNF, a note, or nothing.

Some owners make sarcastic responses to DNFs. I won't DNF their caches again. (Probably won't search for any either.)

If I search more than once for a cache that others have found, I see no reason to post more than one DNF.

If I run out of time on a multi, I do not classify that as a DNF. Might get a note. Might not.

Perhaps I may have missed it, but I do not see any rules or regulations requiring DNFs, or specifying what constitutes a DNF. As such, isn't left to the discretion of the cacher?

November 5, 2005

You are kidding, right? WHO CARES? Post the DNF, dont post it, whatever feels right, but in the mean time remember to have fun.

3.9k · November 5, 2005

A DNF is meant to notify the owner that there may be a problem with the cache.

I disagree. If you find a cache and there is a problem, do you log a DNF? Of course not. "Found It" and "DNF" are simply meant to indicate the result of your search.

In response the the OP, in those cases I would log a DNF. I started to look for the cache and didn't find it. The reason is immaterial. Note, or DNF, that's up to you. I think there are good arguments on both sides. You have to decide for yourself, but whatever you do log something. The owner wants to know if there are people out there looking for his cache.

My personal criteria are, if I punch in the coordinates, hit the GO TO button and come up empty, its a DNF. Some people will only log one if they actually reach the cache site and can't find it. That's fine too.

What I don't agree with are those who won't log a DNF unless they are sure the cache is missing, those who won't log one if it IS missing, or those who won't log if they plan on coming back. Its slightly annoying to get logs for my caches that say "Found it on my 3rd try", but there are no previous DNFs. Maybe I rated the cache a bit too easy. How am I supposed to know if people don't post their DNFs at all. But that's a rant for a whole 'nother thread.

I sense another "Waypoint" article coming up. Therefore there is no need in telling you how wrong you are here. Sharpen you pen!

El Diablo

3.2k · November 5, 2005

Since doing multicaches in one trip is often impossible for me without a GPS, I usually log the first part with a note the day I find it and then edit the note adding comments along the way as each part is found. When the final stage is located I andd my final comments and make it a found log. I realize that the owner only gets an automatic email with the first note, but most of the multicaches I look for are local and the owners know my methods and can keep track if they want to. I have worked out the math to do GPS-less multis if I don't stray far from 40 degrees, but haven't put it to good use yet.

November 5, 2005

I always log a dnf when i actually search for a cache and just can,t find it. because it helps me to remember to go back to the web site and reread the logs or hints and plan my trips around them. Also i do occasionally email the owners and tell them what i did or how i did the search and generally they tell me either i'm close or way off. The whole idea is to have fun trying to find the cache and to visit areas you never would have gone without being in this hobby.

6.1k · November 5, 2005

It doesn't matter whether it's a DNF or a "write note", as long as there is a record of the visit saying what happened. Either is fine and better than NO record at all.

November 5, 2005

I will usually only log a DNF if I gave it my best, couldn't find the cache and finally gave up. Just the other day I was caching, looking for one that is logged as being a fairly hard to find, but had to give up early due to too much scrutiny from the neighbors. I didn't log a DNF for that one, as I felt I wasn't finished looking. I will go back and check some more places when I can.

Sharpshooter.

11.3k · November 5, 2005

It doesn't matter whether it's a DNF or a "write note", as long as there is a record of the visit saying what happened. Either is fine and better than NO record at all.

The difference between a Note and a DNF however is the way it is shown in GSAK. The DNF shows up as a red box which could be a deterrent to someone setting out on a cache hunting trip.

The last cache in this image (GCKF4V), that shows three green boxes, has two Notes as well, but they don't relate to the "condition" of the cache, so they are not shown in a Pictorial form.

For that reason, I only use a DNF if I have really searched for a cache and been unable to find it.

3.9k · November 5, 2005

A DNF is meant to notify the owner that there may be a problem with the cache.

I disagree. If you find a cache and there is a problem, do you log a DNF? Of course not. "Found It" and "DNF" are simply meant to indicate the result of your search....

...What I don't agree with are those who won't log a DNF unless they are sure the cache is missing, those who won't log one if it IS missing, or those who won't log if they plan on coming back...

I agree 100% with Brian on these points (above). To me, a DNF serves MANY purposes, and only one of them might be to alert the owner to a possible problem with the cache.

November 5, 2005

Did you find it?

If answer = no

then log = DNF

This is a little to simplistic.

There are thousands and thousands of caches that I did not find BUT I did not search either.

If you search for 5 minutes on a difficulty 1 that may be a DNF.

If you search for 5 minutes on a difficulty 3 (that could take up a good portion of an afternoon), then you have barely done anything.

If you find stage one of a multi but don't search for stage two, that should not be a DNF.

If there are 3 caches in a park and you only search for one, you don't DNF the other two?

You should have reasonably searched before you did not find.

3.8k · November 5, 2005

...You should have reasonably searched before you did not find.

Yes, but a reasonable search is subjective. DNF is definitive. :ninja: :lol:

November 5, 2005

How about people who email you for a clue,but don't post a DNF?

2.1k · November 5, 2005

This is a little to0 simplistic...

...If you search for 5 minutes on a difficulty 1 that may be a DNF.

If you search for 5 minutes on a difficulty 3 (that could take up a good portion of an afternoon), then you have barely done anything.

If you find stage one of a multi but don't search for stage two, that should not be a DNF. You should have reasonably searched before you did not find.

Yep!

November 7, 2005

ok I went back to the scene of the crime and picked up where I left off, I found the 2nd stage without incident and took off for stage 3, searched for about 10 min and then found at the cords under a rock in a softball sized hole about 6 condoms ( in their wrappers thank goodness) I figured someone must have muggled the micro so I gave up the hunt, I posted a dnf and contacted the owner about what and where I had found he informed me that the cache should have been over about 8 ft from where I found someones stash. I will return and look some more.

This is my DNF critera, if I arrive at the scene of the cords and begin to search and don't sign the log I will post a dnf whether I look for 1 min. or 3 hrs.

Now If I arrive at the cords such as in a drive by and there are a ton of people there and I don't begin to search I just don't log anything.

So if I start searching and don't find its a DNF for me.

November 7, 2005

If we search for the cache and do not find it then we post it as DNF.

If we are doing a multi cache - we don't post until we finish it since you only log it once and there might be several stages. We keep track on our GPS.

Now if the multi is seperated into several individual caches then we will log the usual Found or DNF for each one we visit.

So what we do depends on how the cache is set up.

Some multi caches are difficult to finish in one day. That don't mean you didn't find it - it means you didn't finish it and requires no log at all.

November 7, 2005

I was reading these threads and felt I wanted to post my two cents also. When I started caching, my policy was I would log a DNF if I could not find it on a second go or if I did not intend to return or could not return for an extended period of time. My reason for this was that in some cases, I would not be able to really look for the cache due to time constraints or whatever. I felt a DNF may signal an un necassary maint check or detour others from looking for it that day. Well later I mended my DNF policy to if I get to the site (within 100 feet) and could not find it after giving it a solid try then a DNF would be logged. In a case where I could not find an access to the cache location then I would log a DNF after a second try or again if I was not going to be there within the next two to three days. For multi caches I would log a DNF if I was unable to find one of the stages in the same fashion as a regular cache or of course if I could not find the final stage. If I was unable to finish the cache due to the amount of stages or time required, I would not log anything until the cache was completed or I came to a stage I could not get past. Then I would log the DNF and site that roadblock. Basically in a nut shell there are guidelines, but ultimately you have to make the call in how you log your hunts. If it does not feel right, then it probably is not. point to ponder for those reading this that don't post any DNF's for whatever reason, think of this...I DNF really in my opinion gives credit to your stats. It does not take away from it as it shows that your found it percentage is legitimate.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Roamingbull

November 7, 2005

I see a DNF as feedback to the hider, and when I post one I try to list what happened and where I'm coming from, usually. Example: "Great spot, I ran out of time after 5 minutes, Thanks for the hide!"

I've changed my cache pages and even a cache or two as a result of found or dnf logs, and appreciate the input.

Dnf Or Not

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