Where's George Hates Geocaching

[+carleenp]

I assume that WG will face the same issue cachers face at times of people who don't follow what are viewed to be the normal rules or who want to change them. I think the presense of such people is pretty normal across various hobbies and interests. It isn't necessarily a bad thing either, since such people can cause useful debate about issues affecting the hobby etc. Anyway, because of that, the issue likely will never go away. I don't think it is worth animosity or expressions of animosity though. But then I rarely think anything is worth expressions of animosity.

Edited September 12, 2005 by carleenp

[+Recdiver]

I think Hank has a valid point why get all hostile about it. Oh wait I forgot that's what y'll do over on this side of the fence. Well enjoy your angst and Hank here is one geocacher who would like to apologize for those that have abused your game. Henceforth if I find any of your $ in a cache I'll return it to the wild.

Game on.

[+wimseyguy]

Finally, how would all you geocachers feel if every time any of my users went to a new city, they looked up as many geocaches as they could, located them, and then just took them home, destroyed them, or just threw them in the nearest dumpster? And then left a note on geocaching.com "I trashed this cache."

 

That's how I feel every time a WG bill is found and reported in a geocache

 

Nice mixing up of the fruit basket. A better analogy might be"how about if every hoiler than thou georger logged false finds on your caches, but didn't really find them, didn't trash them, and actually didn't do anything to them, just faked a few website listings. Oh except for two out of tens of thousands. They trashed a few caches and bragged about it.

 

PS I do appreciate hearing the actual explanation behind the attitude though. Thanks for posting it here. Truth is much better than hyperbole, if not always as much fun.

Edited September 12, 2005 by wimseyguy

[Pto]

WG - Im thinking at least One of your problem cachers was from MN, eh?

 

In any case

Play by their rules, or don't play. It's very simple. If people want to start a variation of the game, knock yourself out. Meanwhile, respect theirs.

I'm not a WG fan, but I do respect their game.

El Diablo

 

Very well said El Diablo (and others) - We get the same general attitude here-

[+The Leprechauns]

The cited examples bring to mind an analogous problem that occurred awhile back here at geocaching.com. A geocaching team -- we'll call them "Norelcos" -- got into the "game" of logging finds on caches they hadn't actually visited and of picking up travel bugs they hadn't actually touched, to the point and on such a scale where it became extremely confusing for cache owners and bug owners. Eventually their account was banned.

 

Did Geocaching.com freeze or mark every travel bug that Norelcos ever moved, or every cache which Norelcos claimed to have found? No. They dealt with the problem in a focused way. Everyone else can still enjoy those same travel bugs and geocaches.

 

Similarly, while I agree that the two cited examples are abusive of the Where's George site, and merited freezing the copied bill and deleting the family's duplicate logs, I am not yet convinced that the larger remedy of tagging every "geocache bill" is warranted. Every game has a few bad apples. Toss out those apples, don't chop down the tree.

 

It would be nice if the two hobbies could peacefully co-exist, as they share elements in common.

[+deimos444]

Pardon my vehemance Hank, You do have the right to your opinion and I am not saying that you personally are a racist, for all I know you are an excellant dude.

I am only pointing out that you have completely blamed all geocachers for the escapades of a few.

Thank you for letting the rest of us know about this problem.

[+pdxmarathonman]

Finally, how would all you geocachers feel if every time any of my users went to a new city, they looked up as many geocaches as they could, located them, and then just took them home, destroyed them, or just threw them in the nearest dumpster? And then left a note on geocaching.com "I trashed this cache."

So then all those bills belong to you?

 

While I agree with your assessment of the two hobbies being different and separate, I do take exception with your claim on ownership of the bills the way I own a the caches that I have placed. You only own the data posted to your site. And I understand your frustration with geocachers that abuse your intent. I am frustrated with cachers who abuse travel bugs by stealing them.

[+carleenp]

Henceforth if I find any of your $ in a cache I'll return it to the wild.

I have at times done this, although I didn't log them since I don't do WG. But I don't do it often simply because I often don't have trade items with me and so I have nothing to trade for the bill. Anyway, what is the suggested proticol for finding a WG in a cache when the cacher could get it back in circulation but won't log it? Leave it because it won't be logged by the person removing it, or still get it into circulation? I would like to do what is viewed the best thing there by the people who do WG.

Edited September 12, 2005 by carleenp

[Where's George?]

So then all those bills belong to you? 

 

No, I'm not claiming that... but I claim I own the right to define what does and does not happen on my site, much the same way I have the right to throw away some box of trinkets found in the woods... Sounds like littering to me. <sarcasm>

 

-Hank

Edited September 12, 2005 by Where's George?

[+carleenp]

So then all those bills belong to you? 

 

No, I'm not claiming that... but I claim I own the right to define what does and does not happen on my site, much the same way I have the right to throw away some box of trinkets found in the woods... Sounds like littering to me.

 

-Hank

Well, you could throw away a box found in the woods, but then wouldn't you be doing what you complain of: Not respecting the norms of another group's hobby?

 

Anyway, I think most cachers who know of WG would like to follow the rules where they are in agreement (I have no idea if there is disagreement over the WG rules for geocaches). Likewise, I think most WG people would want to follow the basic norms of caching. The problem is when people disagree about what those norms are or those truly bad apples who refuse to respect any known norms. I don't think that can ever really be totally avoided in any hobby, but respectful discussion certainly can help inform those who don't know.

[+Renegade Knight]

...much the same way I have the right to throw away some box of trinkets found in the woods... Sounds like littering to me. ..

-Hank

If I caught you stealing my things, I can have you prosecuted and you will probably spend a lot of time on community service. That would teach you the difference between litter and a cache. The law is the law.

 

You have the right to define how you would like people to use your site. It ends there. Anything else that you do, especially if it's stupid, may use up all your luck.

[Jeremy]

Well, you could throw away a box found in the woods, but then wouldn't you be doing what you complain of: Not respecting the norms of another group's hobby?

I don't think the intent was to make fun of the hobby - Hank is just imitating the whole "yer defacing bills" argument and applying it to geocaching.

 

I can see where Where's George is having so many issues. People really do attach a bill to an item and generally abuse the features of the site by tracking them there. Also, the usual hit on a bill is far lower than the intentional passing of bills from cache to cache - which upsets the way that the where's george site runs.

 

(Yeah. Tracking a hitchiker through Where's George is free for you, but not for Hank and his site. That's the point. It costs money to run these sites)

 

The bottom line is you should respect the request of Where's George by not abusing the features there. Understand the intent of the activity and don't make your own game out of it. If you like tracking so much create your own "bill as travel bug" tracking site.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Finally, how would all you geocachers feel if every time any of my users went to a new city, they looked up as many geocaches as they could, located them, and then just took them home, destroyed them, or just threw them in the nearest dumpster? And then left a note on geocaching.com "I trashed this cache."

 

That's how I feel every time a WG bill is found and reported in a geocache.

 

-Hank

Where's George?

I guess I'd feel about like you would if someone hunted down your website, broke in and took a baseball bat to your personal property and left a WG note on a dollar. "Found it, Logged it, It broke."

 

That you feel like that about a WG dollar is a reflection on you. Cache owners who have a special logging requiremnt feel the frustration of trying to enforce it but they sure don't make the comparisons that you make.

 

I followed your rules even though I think they are as natural as silicone and not nearly as good looking. Now I'm just not going to use your site at all. That's no loss, I didn't really find many WG dollars to begin with.

[+tozainamboku]

I wonder how many people have discovered Where's George and know that you can log bills because of geocaching. Sure we could just leave an unmarked bill in a cache. But the idea of leaving something that can be tracked as part of another hobby is appealing to a lot of geocachers. I once got a $5 Where's George bill (shouldn't this be Where's Abe?) in change at a pizza place. I didn't put it in a cache but I logged it on Where's George. Its probably a dead bill now since I logged "Got this in change at a geocaching event"

[+carleenp]

Yeesh, people are using bills as TBs? Interesting. I can't imagine that working well? I mean many won't recognize the point? Aside from not being respectful, it just seems not very effective. I would guess that an angst thread here on "my WG traveler got stolen" would see some heavy criticism.

[+carleenp]

Well, you could throw away a box found in the woods, but then wouldn't you be doing what you complain of: Not respecting the norms of another group's hobby?

I don't think the intent was to make fun of the hobby - Hank is just imitating the whole "yer defacing bills" argument and applying it to geocaching.

 

OK, reading back I can see that. That makes the comment make more sense now.

[+El Diablo]

This kind of reminds me when the pirates decided to play a different game using our caches. We didn't like it. WG dosen't like us modifying their game either.

 

I might not have said that just right...but hey, it's me.

 

El Diablo

[Jeremy]

I wonder how many people have discovered Where's George and know that you can log bills because of geocaching.

I get that a lot with Geocaching.com too. "If it wasn't for <insert abusive method here>, a bunch of people wouldn't have known about geocaching."

 

Hank may mirror my sentiment, but if someone learns about it because of something that negatively impacts the intent of the site, they will unfortunately have to find other methods of hearing about the activity. The end does not justify the means.

[+Gorak]

...much the same way I have the right to throw away some box of trinkets found in the woods... Sounds like littering to me. ..

-Hank

If I caught you stealing my things, I can have you prosecuted and you will probably spend a lot of time on community service. That would teach you the difference between litter and a cache. The law is the law.

Good luck finding a prosecutor that would actually prosecute someone for removing a cache. It's more likely that charges would never be laid since I highly doubt there would be even the slightest chance of a conviction.

[Where's George?]

If I caught you stealing my things, I can have you prosecuted and you will probably spend a lot of time on community service. That would teach you the difference between litter and a cache. The law is the law.

 

I'd like to see you attempt to prove to any law enforcement officer that a box in the woods, not on your private property, seeming left there for no reason, is actually "your property". I view geocaches just like I view dollar bills - they are yours as long as they are in your possession... beyond that, you can't prove that any cache is actually your property, and therefore the rest of your arguement falls apart.

 

Now if I were stealing your things out of your house, car, or other private property, you have a case... but an anonymous box in the woods? I think not.

[CoyoteRed]

...you can't prove that any cache is actually your property, and therefore the rest of your argument falls apart.

Actually, not entirely true.

 

This might be a common notion based on many caches tossed where ever the placer can find a spot that can get listed. (A whole different demon in itself.) However, there are many of us who place caches with full permission of the land owner or steward and mark our caches with a stencil like the one we sell here (gratuitous self plug) along with our contact information and cache info sheet.

 

This clearly places said cache well within the legal definition of personal property and negates any assumption of abandoned or lost property.

 

With that said, I fully support your request to not include WG$s in geocaches.

Edited September 13, 2005 by CoyoteRed

[Pto]

While I agree with your assessment of the two hobbies being different and separate, I do take exception with your claim on ownership of the bills the way I own a the caches that I have placed. You only own the data posted to your site

 

Haha! Guess who owns the data on THIS site (as in, your cache hide?) Not you, sorry.

We all live by the guidelines of this site. Remeber, "If you like tracking (Insert anything here) so much create your own "bill as travel bug" (anything) tracking site.

 

Maybe we could create a Waymarking new catagory for all the WG players- would that help to co-mingle the 2 sports?

[+ke6n]

Now if I were stealing your things out of your house, car, or other private property, you have a case... but an anonymous box in the woods? I think not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ok. Done reading your attitude. I, for one, won't combine passtimes so I won't skew your "scientific results". Yep, the two incidents you mentioned were obvious violations of any rules. The attitude you present to 'all' has caused me to decide not to go back to the WG website to check on any money I've released into the wild and I will not be bothering playing the game with any WG$s I run across. No need to associate with that.

[+pdxmarathonman]

So then all those bills belong to you? 

 

No, I'm not claiming that... but I claim I own the right to define what does and does not happen on my site, much the same way I have the right to throw away some box of trinkets found in the woods... Sounds like littering to me. <sarcasm>

 

-Hank

Hank - Do you work for the National Park Service?

I wonder how many people have discovered Where's George and know that you can log bills because of geocaching

Too many apparently. It's the wrong way to move money. And I think I encounter a lot more dollar bills in the rest of my life that I do while geocaching

[+Renegade Knight]

...Good luck finding a prosecutor that would actually prosecute someone for removing a cache.      It's more likely that charges would never be laid since I highly doubt there would be even the slightest chance of a conviction. 

I've been down that path. It takes more money than I have to force the law to work for such a minor thing in the scheme of things. On the other hand I've seen the law abused for no better reason than some well connected SOB wants to make a point.

 

However having been down that path I have also learned there are other methods of justice that also fly under the radar. It's an interesting world we live in. It relys on a lot of good will to make it work.

Edited September 13, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[+El Diablo]

Come on people. Lay off. The guy is trying to protect his game as much as we try to protect ours. How about a little understanding here on both sides and put an end to the piling on.

 

He is a visitor on our site trying to explain his problems. He seems very open to geocaching. He's just asking that you not modify his game.

 

Respect people...respect. That goes for both sides.

 

El Diablo

[+JoesBar]

When I read the first post, I thought, 'Hey lighten up Francis.' But then I read all the posts here. It was interesting to read the first post from Where's George. (aka Hank) I can see where the actions of those two cachers would anger a person. I started on WG before I heard about geocaching. I marked some bills and launched them into the wild. I got a few hits, but most simply disappeared. Now, most of the WG bills I do come across are in caches. I'd log the condition and usually place them in another cache. But after reading all the opinions, I think I will just make a fair trade in a cache then spend the bill normally. As someone pointed out, "if you don't like the rules, don't play the game."

[+pdxmarathonman]

Come on people. Lay off. The guy is trying to protect his game as much as we try to protect ours. How about a little understanding here on both sides and put an end to the piling on.

 

He is a visitor on our site trying to explain his problems. He seems very open to geocaching. He's just asking that you not modify his game.

 

Respect people...respect. That goes for both sides.

 

El Diablo

Agreed. I hope my postings weren't taken as disrespectful.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I'd like to see you attempt to prove to any law enforcement officer that a box in the woods, not on your private property, seeming left there for no reason, is actually "your property". I view geocaches just like I view dollar bills - they are yours as long as they are in your possession... beyond that, you can't prove that any cache is actually your property, and therefore the rest of your arguement falls apart.

 

Now if I were stealing your things out of your house, car, or other private property, you have a case... but an anonymous box in the woods? I think not.

Proving a cache is mine is already a problem I've solved out of necessity. I've also had a US District Attorney tell me in no uncertain terms the law does work for caches. With the right kind of backing I could lock you away for exactly the petty theivery you propose. With a bit of planning I can ensure it's a felony. Where you get lucky is that it is considered a minor thing by the police and it is difficult to catch someone in the act in the way it needs to be done for evidence. The only missing part of the equation is the last piece. It doesn't do any good to have the law, and the proof if you can't catch them in the act, or with the stolen property.

 

All in all it would be easier to just bust the guy's head if you catch them in the act. True the law does take that seriously, but even if you are caught you will have many a thankful cacher send you thank you notes and the jackass would think twice before stealing caches again.

 

But hey, it's your head to risk. As for me if I knew you got psychotic about WG bucks in a cache I'd probably not put one in.

[danoshimano]

It is a federal offense to deface US currency

Then how come you see those penny smooshing/imprinting machines at almost every tourist spot in the country??

Those are coins. Totally different government agency, rules, and laws.

[+El Diablo]

...I'd like to see you attempt to prove to any law enforcement officer that a box in the woods, not on your private property, seeming left there for no reason, is actually "your property".  I view geocaches just like I view dollar bills - they are yours as long as they are in your possession... beyond that, you can't prove that any cache is actually your property, and therefore the rest of your arguement falls apart.

 

Now if I were stealing your things out of your house, car, or other private property, you have a case... but an anonymous box in the woods?  I think not.

Proving a cache is mine is already a problem I've solved out of necessity. I've also had a US District Attorney tell me in no uncertain terms the law does work for caches. With the right kind of backing I could lock you away for exactly the petty theivery you propose. With a bit of planning I can ensure it's a felony. Where you get lucky is that it is considered a minor thing by the police and it is difficult to catch someone in the act in the way it needs to be done for evidence. The only missing part of the equation is the last piece. It doesn't do any good to have the law, and the proof if you can't catch them in the act, or with the stolen property.

 

All in all it would be easier to just bust the guy's head if you catch them in the act. True the law does take that seriously, but even if you are caught you will have many a thankful cacher send you thank you notes and the jackass would think twice before stealing caches again.

 

But hey, it's your head to risk. As for me if I knew you got psychotic about WG bucks in a cache I'd probably not put one in.

RK, Do me a favor and give this up. You know I have great respect for you, but you are pursuing a fight that doen't need pursuing.

 

You are as passionate about caching as Hank is about WG?. So now we are just getting into a p...match. That's not going to solve anything. Let's find a solution.

 

Have I sent you a copy of Today's Cacher?

 

El Diablo

[bogleman]

Think of a WG as a travel bug that gets to hide in cash boxes instead of cache boxes.

[+zoltig]

I know this is silly BUT, everybody collect the "WG$" from caches, send them to Jeremy. Jeremy purchases a GPS unit and sends it to Hank with a free membership. Should be more than enough money to cover all of that. Of course we will still have the problem of WG$ in caches, but maybe it is an investment of kind. Puts WG$ in circulation and puts Hank into geocaching. Provided he wants to do it of course.

Ok start the flames!

[Jeremy]

Send the WG bills to Red Cross instead. Maybe that will put this thread into a better perspective.

[+zoltig]

Send the WG bills to Red Cross instead. Maybe that will put this thread into a better perspective.

That's a fine idea!

[+Renegade Knight]

...RK, Do me a favor and give this up. You know I have great respect for you, but you are pursuing a fight that doen't need pursuing.

 

You are as passionate about caching as Hank is about WG?. So now we are just getting into a p...match. That's not going to solve anything. Let's find a solution....

Hanks a bit misguided on reality. Now if he wanted to make his case on why a cache isn't the natural circulation of script, great, I'm all for a good discussion and I'd be happy to debate natural circulation. Like this site my opinion would be just that and it may or may not change a thing. However the sidetrack Hank introduced really had no purpose in the thread and it was wrong to boot. Ok it did serve a purpose, it was entertaining and showed some of Hanks colors. Lets hope that he’s having a bad day.

[+Renegade Knight]

Send the WG bills to Red Cross instead. Maybe that will put this thread into a better perspective.

That would probably get banned since if you single out WG dollars for donation that would be not be natural circulation.

 

Still I think the "Top Red Cross" Dollar has a nice ring to it. Just to see how many times you could recycle one.

[+carleenp]

Yeesh, people are using bills as TBs?  Interesting. I can't imagine that working well? I mean many won't recognize the point? Aside from not being respectful, it just seems not very effective. I would guess that an angst thread here on "my WG traveler got stolen" would see some heavy criticism.

I thought I would answer my own astonishment at this by doing some research. Um, I really do have a life......

 

This thread talks about the use of WG bills as Travel bugs, along with some other background. This one illustrates a person who found a laminated WG in a cache, apparently meant to be used as a TB. The finder was confused. More instances of WG bills used as TBs are in this thread. I found a few more examples too, but this is enough.

 

Here is a thead with misc background. This one has a bit more. The following have general misc WG stuff: Here, here, here, here. Yet more here. There are more, but it is getting redundant....

 

Sorry for all the Markwell's I just figured they might provide background to people. And hey! since I decided to go nuts and find them, I figured I would share!

 

I had no clue that WG bills were being used as travel bugs by some. It seems odd to me. As I said before, it seems inefficient and less likely to work. But more over, it is jacking another hobby by going against their rules. That seems impolite! Of course I bet many don't know it is against WG rules, at least when finding and logging one there (some threads illustrate that). And then there is the whole thing where any hobby will always have those that like to push or debate the limits. I can't answer how that should be done at WG since I don't take part in WG and that is up to them. Like here, it is a web site with rules. I would hope though that people respect thier wishes when they know of them. Cachers who know they are pushing or blatently violating the rules of another hobby and/or imposing their own ideas on another hobby without at least some consideration/discussion at the other hobby site doesn't leave a nice image. I plead ignorance of any discussion of this at the WG site though since I have never read there. So I am sorry if I stepped on the toes any WG people who feel stongly about this and have debated it there.

[+tozainamboku]

Maybe we could create a Waymarking new catagory for all the WG players- would that help to co-mingle the 2 sports?

Category Proposal

 

Geocaching Dollars (Things)

 

Short Description: U.S. Dollar Bills that want to travel from cache to cache.

 

Detailed Description: These are moving waymarks. These waymarks track the movement of particular United States dollar bills from one geocache to another. DO NOT create a waymark for a dollar bill that has WWW.WHERESGEORGE.COM written on it. This is another game and we don't want to interfer with anyone else's game. To insure this rule is met a photograph of both sides of the bill is required to create this waymark.

 

Category Variables:

Denomination (currently only dollar bills accepted but this may be expanded)

Series (eg. 2003, 2003A, 2004)

Serial Number (10 or 11 characters)

 

Instructions for reporting a waymark:

Write WWW.Waymarking.COM and Geocaching Dollar on the edge of the bill. Post picture of both sides of the bill so we can ensure it is not a Where's George bill. Enter the GC number of the cache where you left the bill and and the coordinates (WGS-84) of the cache (use the coordinates that are posted on geocaching.com - not the coordinates of the actual cache. This game should not be used to give away the locations of Unknown/Mystery caches or Multi-caches)

 

Instructions for visiting a waymark:

If you find a bill with WWW.Waymarking.COM and Geocaching Dollar written on it, take it from the cache it is in and leave it in another cache. After you have moved the bill, you can log your visit. Tell us the cache you found it in and the cache you moved it to. Report the new coordinates where the bill can be found.

 

[Jeremy]

Sorry. Just like WG doesn't like tracking bills between caches, we're not tracking dollar bills on Waymarking.com. That would also be considered an abuse of our features of the site.

[+Bob&TheGang]

Boy, did this thread open a can of worms.

 

I totally agree with Hank that if people are using Where's George as a tracking site for their would-be type travel bugs then that is totally wrong. Also those two examples he cited seemed very wrong too.

 

Sites such as Wherre’s George and Geocaching.com needs rules to work, like them or not.

 

I found out about Where's George about 2 months after I started Geocaching when found one in a cache.

 

I started this thread because I thought it was very odd that Where's George had something against Geocaching. Heck, Geocahing.com has a web link to Where's George on their site. I really thought they sponsored each other.

 

So does Where’s George object if I get a WG$ from a store and then place it in a cache? And then someone else picks up the WG$ and then spends it at a local Mall? To me, that seems very close to the natural circulation of money.

[+pdxmarathonman]

Boy, did this thread open a can of worms.

...

So does Where’s George object if I get a WG$ from a store and then place it in a cache?  And then someone else picks up the WG$ and then spends it at a local Mall?  To me, that seems very close to the natural circulation of money.

Close, but totally unnatural. Spend the money keep it as intended!

 

Besides, money is a really lame trade item.... oops another can o' worms.

[Where's George?]

Send the WG bills to Red Cross instead. Maybe that will put this thread into a better perspective.

That would probably get banned since if you single out WG dollars for donation that would be not be natural circulation.

 

Obviously you have some sort of animosity and misguided anger toward WG and the purpose and rules of the site, since what you attempt to claim is actually not true.

 

If people want to send any WG bills they find in Geocaches to the Red Cross, I would have no problem with that - assuming that either (a) the sender does not enter the bills, or ( the receiver does not hit them when received. Since the sender can't control what the receiver does, as long as (a) is followed, sending the bills in the mail to the Red Cross is perfectly fine. The entire point of WG that I continually try to impress on people, is that you don't need Where's George? to tell you that a bill went from point A to point B when you sent it from point A to point B.. Period. If people were going to send cash to the Red Cross anyway that IS natural circulation. What isn't natural is entering it at the beginning and end of each hop on purpose. Which is exactly where the problem of Geocaches comes in, and as I've said before, you don't need Where's George? to tell you that a bill traveled from cache A to cache B, when you took it from cache A and put it in cache B.

 

Proving a cache is mine is already a problem I've solved out of necessity. I've also had a US District Attorney tell me in no uncertain terms the law does work for caches. With the right kind of backing I could lock you away for exactly the petty theivery you propose. With a bit of planning I can ensure it's a felony.

 

This has got the be the biggest piece of BS I've read on the internet in a long time. Thanks for the laugh. Felony. Riiiiight.. for a $20 box of junk in the woods. Talk about "misguided on reality.". Let's see some actual case law instead of completely unprovable hot air.

[Where's George?]

I started this thread because I thought it was very odd that Where's George had something against Geocaching.  Heck, Geocahing.com has a web link to Where's George on their site.  I really thought they sponsored each other.

 

Every bill on WG that is tagged as a GC bill has a link and icon to geocaching.com.

 

I might not agree with it all, but like I said, I'm not going to ruin everyone elses day by competely banning the practice and deleting all traces of GC Bills on WG. I'm not here to make enemies and fight with people... I'm just trying to educate everyone on why the state of things are they way they are now, and how to properly use the site. Each site feeds alot of new users to the other, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Example GC bill: http://www.wheresgeorge.com/report.php?key...c7f5a57831be098

Edited September 13, 2005 by Where's George?

[+dkwolf]

assuming that either (a) the sender does not enter the bills, or ( the receiver does not hit them when received............The entire point of WG that I continually try to impress on people, is that you don't need Where's George? to tell you that a bill went from point A to point B when you sent it from point A to point B.. Period. If people were going to send cash to the Red Cross anyway that IS natural circulation. What isn't natural is entering it at the beginning and end of each hop on purpose. Which is exactly where the problem of Geocaches comes in, and as I've said before, you don't need Where's George? to tell you that a bill traveled from cache A to cache B, when you took it from cache A and put it in cache B.

...........so what's the point?

 

Or am I just misunderstanding you when you essentially say you have a tracking website that people don't need? Apprarantly, WG works quite differently from our own travel bugs here, where the goal is to log and document EVERY movement of the travel bug. I would think logging the bills at the time of mailing and again at the time of receipt would be beneficial to the site--down the road a map of the bills movement could be put together, and if logged every time it changed hands, you would be able to visually see the amount of donations that were sent.

 

But, the "You don't need WG.com to know the bill went from point A to point B" statement completely baffles me. Sure, you don't need it if you were the one that sent it, but what about the other people watching that bill?

 

Guess I just don't get it.

 

Oh yeah....and the $2 WG bill that's been sitting on my desk for the last 4 months....guess that's not in the natural circulation, either, is it? The game just never seemed right to me, long before I found geocaching. Especially now that I know the stand the Federal Reserve Bank takes on it. Go ahead, play your game. I'll stick to tupperware in the woods.

[+carleenp]

assuming that either (a) the sender does not enter the bills, or ( the receiver does not hit them when received............The entire point of WG that I continually try to impress on people, is that you don't need Where's George? to tell you that a bill went from point A to point B when you sent it from point A to point B..  Period.  If people were going to send cash to the Red Cross anyway that IS natural circulation. What isn't natural is entering it at the beginning and end of each hop on purpose.  Which is exactly where the problem of Geocaches comes in, and as I've said before, you don't need Where's George? to tell you that a bill traveled from cache A to cache B, when you took it from cache A and put it in cache B. 

...........so what's the point?

 

Or am I just misunderstanding you when you essentially say you have a tracking website that people don't need? Apprarantly, WG works quite differently from our own travel bugs here, where the goal is to log and document EVERY movement of the travel bug. I would think logging the bills at the time of mailing and again at the time of receipt would be beneficial to the site--down the road a map of the bills movement could be put together, and if logged every time it changed hands, you would be able to visually see the amount of donations that were sent.

 

But, the "You don't need WG.com to know the bill went from point A to point B" statement completely baffles me. Sure, you don't need it if you were the one that sent it, but what about the other people watching that bill?

 

Guess I just don't get it.

 

Oh yeah....and the $2 WG bill that's been sitting on my desk for the last 4 months....guess that's not in the natural circulation, either, is it? The game just never seemed right to me, long before I found geocaching. Especially now that I know the stand the Federal Reserve Bank takes on it. Go ahead, play your game. I'll stick to tupperware in the woods.

This is where it could be interesting. OK, so a person mails a WG bill to the Red Cross. If they intended to mail cash, it is normal circulation then? Or not? I suppose that could carry to geocaches based on subjective intent? I would guess there is much room for disagreement on that stuff, which I find interesting, but won't try to decide and debate since I don't do WG. I get the impression that they already have their own rules on that stuff. Is this type of thing debated over there? I am curious. I would think it must be at times?

 

But at some point it gets wierd. E.g. I have picked up on the WG bills as Travel Bugs thing since that seems like a clear abuse of one hobby by another. At that point, the bills get laminated or things/travelers attached, and the WG site used as a way to track them. That certainly is not normal circulation.

[+tozainamboku]

I see what Hank is trying to say and I agree with him completely. Imagine taking a Where's George dollar and attaching a note to it that says "move me from cache to cache" or "move me from California to Florida". This is clearly not what Where's George is for. Its for registering a bill in one place and seeing where it shows up due to the natural exchange of money. The bills that I have found in caches have never had a goal. I usually spend them. I'll only move one to another cache if that cache has a "Where's George" theme. Fortunately this is pretty rare. I did put 1000 yen in one of my caches as a FTF prize and registered it on www.osatsu.net

 

And Jeremy - the Geocaching Dollar Waymarking category was meant as a joke. Clearly most people would realize that Groundspeak does not intend for Waymarking to be used to track cache trade items. An it is unlikely that any moving waymarks would get approved as well. Although I still think that there are several ways you could have a Yellow Jeep category

[+Markwell]

What he wanted to do, and what he accomplished are two differnet things. By creating a site that tracked money he created WG Groopies who enter thousands upon thousands of bills just to track them. Some bills being trackable went into caches. Neither is "natural" by his own definitions.

 

Anyone who uses WG to track money is altering it's natural circulation. Meanwhile I guess it's ok that I put non WG bucks into a cache, as a trade item for a foreign coin but if it's a WG buck...oh my... the WG universe collapses.

Isn't this akin to something I remember from physics and chemistry with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? I remember distinctly my advanced chem teacher talking about quantum mechanics and that the way to study electrons would be to have something reflect off them and tell us where they were (like sonar or radar), but since the mass of the electrons being used to bombard the ones we're trying to study would move the targeted electrons from their position, we can never clearly study them.

 

The act of studying the object changes the nature of the object.

 

Wow. I sound like Cliff Claven.

[+dkwolf]

But at some point it gets wierd. E.g. I have picked up on the WG bills as Travel Bugs thing since that seems like a clear abuse of one hobby by another. At that point, the bills get laminated or things/travelers attached, and the WG site used as a way to track them. That certainly is not normal circulation.

Oh, I agree with you there, taking a bill and somehow tagging it with the intent of using it similar to our own TB's here.. for as little interest as I have in WG, even I say that's wrong. That would be like someone finding a travel bug in a geocache and keeping it in his car so he could log where he's been. Complete and total misuse of the site.

 

I think the major difference between geocaching travel bugs and where's george bills is the fact that the travel bugs can be traced to an individual who paid money for the item, and in theory is the legal owner of it, and was made and purchased with the intent of being released into geocaches. Whereas WG uses bills that are technically the property of the Federal Reserve Bank system, and were not intended to be used this way.

[+The Dillon Gang]

being the co-owner of the event that Bob was solicting donations for, i was suprised at Hank's response.

 

I am glad that he participated in the forum discussion to help me understand his comment....I have to agree with him. It's his game and we should respect that....just as when the "pirates" were trying to change geocaching....we resented that intrusion. i was one of their victims. i had to "play" their game to get my stuff back.

 

My little ones love to find money in the cache....that's cash for them!!! and we spend it as quick as possible. sometimes i log that i have picked up the bill if i have time (often used it for lunch or snack on the way home). after that i don't even check on it. (come to think about it wonder what happend to my t.bs?)

 

As long as people keep placing them...we'll keep putting them back in circulation by spending them!

 

RK, when i was just teething on my gpsr you were a strong and respected presence in geocaching. i understand you love the sport/game alot and take pride in it. i have a lot of respect for you and consider your opinion valuable. i think we need to focus the thread (or end it) on the topic (hank's issue of geocachers not using the wg website for the purpose he designed it)

 

my humble 2.78 cents worth