Geocaching : A Caucasian Sport?

May 18, 2005

Interesting, but is there link to the topic of this thread?

Actually, I thought about making the topic "Is Geocaching a Male Caucasian Sport" but then realized I knew of enough female geocachers to answer the question. Nevertheless, it was good to get a confirmation.

Edited May 18, 2005 by RakeInTheCache

2.6k · May 18, 2005

O.K. did a quick study while at home getting over a cold. Here are the rankings for Western European countries. The stat is the number of caches per 100,000 inhabitants.
41.5 Sweden

32.2 Norway

18.5 Denmark

12.3 Switzerland

11.7 Germany

11.6 Netherlands

11.5 Austria

10.5 UK

8.9 Belgium

6.3 Ireland

2.8 Portugal

1.4 Spain

0.9 Greece

0.9 France

0.8 Italy

0.2 Japan

Ummm.. did you forget something?

May 18, 2005

Finland (a home of geocaching) obviously isn't in western Europe.

May 18, 2005

Finland (a home of geocaching) obviously isn't in western Europe.

But Japan apparently is. I must have missed that memo.

2.6k · May 18, 2005

Finland (a home of geocaching) obviously isn't in western Europe.

But Japan apparently is. I must have missed that memo.

Eh. It's a UNESCO thing. You wouldn't understand.

1.6k · May 18, 2005

OOPS! I guess it would have seemed a bit more On Topic to say that my friend is black and I am white!

There are definite cultural differences, but I think it is more an issue of what kind of income our parents had rather than race. I recently read an enlightening book called "Framework for Understanding Poverty" by Ruby K. Payne. It helped me understand some of my coworkers better.

People tend to be uncomfortable with things that are new or unfamiliar. My friend is uncomfortable in the hot buggy woods. I am uncomfortable in noisy bars. We can live with that and enjoy each others company in settings we both like. And once in a while, push the boundaries and try something new.

Sissy

May 18, 2005

[ummm.. did you forget something?

Dang! I can't handle all this complexity. I feel a fever coming on...

41.5 Sweden
32.2 Norway
26.7 Finland
18.5 Denmark
12.3 Switzerland
11.7 Germany
11.6 Netherlands
11.5 Austria
10.5 UK
8.9 Belgium
6.3 Ireland
2.8 Portugal
1.4 Spain
0.9 Greece
0.9 France
0.8 Italy
0.2 Japan (to provide an interesting comparison with a non-Caucausian culture for those purists who didn't get it.)

1.4k · May 18, 2005

I went geocaching in Japan recently, so I can add some perspective to this issue, but first my opinion:

Geocaching has a lot more to do with economics than race. Take a moment and ponder about the amount of expendable income required to have an Internet connection and convenient transportation to do "outdoor activities."

And right now, Geocaching favors languages with Greek & Latin roots, which includes English, of course. Geocachers in Japan are trying hard to promote the sport by encouraging people to post their logs in Japanese, which is not trivial on Geocaching.com (requires posting the log in Unicode rather than Microsoft-native Shift-JIS encoding).

Also, GPSr units with native-language features cost more than 2x in Japan compared to the U.S., so some of the cachers there have opted to buy them overseas. That's clearly an economic barrier.

Groundspeak does not impose barriers of entry for membership, so to me, it's clear that they aren't favoring one race or another. I think any perceived racial inbalance in this sport is more of a systematic problem outside the scope of this sport.

2.5k · May 18, 2005

What will happen to this thread when I rephrase the question:
Geocaching: A Christian sport?

That would be negative, too.. I know of at least one Cacher who's completely 100% absolutely positively *NOT* a christian.

May 18, 2005

Geocaching may also not be as popular among African-Americans due to lack of knowledge of the sport.

The best analogy I could make is look what Tiger Woods did for the sport of golf for African Americans.

And phillipinos too! Hardly anyone mentions that he's half phillipino. All that they focus on is he's black. He's a product of the "melting pot". So, I guess that you could say that he brought the sport of golf to the Phillipines, too? I would say so! Cool!

...erm, um...

Quoted from http://www.larryelder.com/racial/tigerwoods.htm:

Tiger has tried to address the "what-shall-you-call-me" issue. The November 1996 issue of "Golf Digest," he said, "The purpose of this statement is to explain my heritage for the benefit of members of media who may be seeing me play for the first time. It is the final and only comment I will make regarding this issue.

"My parents have taught me to always be proud of my ethnic background. Please be assured that is, and will be, the case, past, present, and future. The various media have portrayed me as African-American, sometimes Asian. In fact, I am both...On my father's side I am African-American; on my mother's side I am Thai. Truthfully, I feel very fortunate, and equally proud, to be both African-American and Asian! The critical, and fundamental, point is that ethnic background and/or composition should not make a difference. It does not make a difference to me."

= = = end quote = = =

And so it should go with Geocaching as well?

Ok, ya got me. I was told philipino. But, you did get my point, though, as Tiger mentioned my point in that magazine.

2.5k · May 18, 2005

And right now, Geocaching favors languages with Greek & Latin roots, which includes English, of course. Geocachers in Japan are trying hard to promote the sport by encouraging people to post their logs in Japanese, which is not trivial on Geocaching.com (requires posting the log in Unicode rather than Microsoft-native Shift-JIS encoding).

I recall that coming up before as a big issue for most of Asia - not just Japan (although Japan is considered a first world country and most of the other Asian countries are still third world, including China)

As for the French demographics, I also recal hearing that there is a more prefered french GC version that is used as opposed to this site, so it's not that the activity is un-popular, just the site.

May 18, 2005

Okay, first off, I think the conversation in this thread has been more civil than that of many of the previous threads that have discussed race and Geocaching. Having said that, I am going to WARN you right now that some of what I have to say in this post may ruffle some feathers, but I ask that you 1) read what I post carefully, 2) think about what I am posting, and then 3) post or PM me if you want clarifcation.

Having posted a warning, let me say that somethings just don't make sense, and it has to do with perspective. Until you can see something from someelse's perspective, you are not going to believe it possible. For example, I am a member of Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity- a predominantly Black Fraternity. Unlike many predominantly white fraternities, I can remain an active member until I die (after that, active membership becomes problematic). So, when I go to confernces, it's not unusual to see 19 year old and 90 year old men in the same room, discussing fraternity matters. It IS unusual to see white men in those rooms discussing fraternity matters. While there are White, Asian, Native American, and etc members, this fraternity is predominantly black. We usually don't sit around discussing why there aren't more whites in Sigma, or ideas for diversifying more. Men that come to the fraternity with an interest and desire are usually invited to join. This has a lot to do with a lot of organizations- when you are in the majority- you don't think about what it's like to be in the minority, or how your organization/ sport/activity is viewed by them. Hence seeing pictures of nothing but Whites will drive some minorities away, just as "too many" pictures of minorities will drive some whites away.

Pater mentioned the Jeep thread. For those unfamiliar, a writer for Jeep's Magazine (for Jeep owners) wanted to do a story about Geocachers that used their Jeeps to cache in North Carolina. That would have been fine, but they were looking for minority cachers, and were willing to loan a Jeep for the story. That wasn't not right, and a couple of Cachers got irrate about it. There was another thread about Black Enterprise Magazine wanting to do a story on Geocaching, and as you might have guessed, particularly black cachers. A couple of cachers got irrate about that too. Tracy and I were interviewed for the story. My point is this- why are we so uncomfortable talking about something that most of us live with on a daily basis (race)? Issues of race did not end with Brown v Board of Ed, or the Civil Rights Movement- they still exist. I understand that every eligible voter in the United States was not guaranteed that right until 1964- the year I was born (yep, that makes me 40). I also realize that race is not always an issue for those in the majority, and usually is for those in the minority. It will always be an issue until we learn that seeing differences and questioning them is not the same as complaining about, or acting on them.

Meanwhile, if you see us out on the trail, know that we probably share a lot in common and will stop and talk if you want. Also, I have a few friends that need to get out in the woods to find a cache or two- they just don't know it yet.

3.9k · May 18, 2005

Also, I have a few friends that need to get out in the woods to find a cache or two- they just don't know it yet.

Now there's something I think we can all agree on!!

4.5k · May 19, 2005

[ummm.. did you forget something?

Dang! I can't handle all this complexity. I feel a fever coming on...

41.5 Sweden

32.2 Norway

26.7 Finland

18.5 Denmark

12.3 Switzerland

11.7 Germany

11.6 Netherlands

11.5 Austria

10.5 UK

8.9 Belgium

6.3 Ireland

2.8 Portugal

1.4 Spain

0.9 Greece

0.9 France

0.8 Italy

0.2 Japan (to provide an interesting comparison with a non-Caucausian culture for those purists who didn't get it.)

Did I miss it? What's it for the US?

4.5k · May 19, 2005

Just look at the difference in the popularity of our sport between Germany and France. Germany has almost 10,000 caches, while France has barely 500. Germany has more people but not enough to make that kind of difference.

The difference in numbers of geocaches/geocachers between France and Germany seems have to do with language/culture.

There is a nice picture of caches: goto http://www.geocaching.nl/index/ and click on "Kaart van de Benelux" (top op page).

You will see that Germany and the Netherlands have about the same density of caches.

Also the Northern part of Belgium above the line Lille-Liège compares well with the Dutch and German distribution; in this part they also speek Dutch, a language of Germanic origin.

In the south part of Belgium they speak French, a language belonging to the Latin languagegroup.

And it seems that caches like to be near other caches; the distribution is lumped.

Hmmm. Ialways saw Germans as the scientific, tech oriented people. (German used to be the world's scientific language.) The French? Well, they're lovers!

Now is you were to add a bottle of vino to a cache, maybe you could change the ratios!

May 19, 2005

I dont think that it is a caucasian sport. I think is more of a draw to the techie nerd geek circle who like the outdoors. All of the people I have meet caching are of that circle. Computer programers, lab techs, engineers, website builders and the such. So, if you are not exsposed to the technology you wont even have a cahce of being in the game.

May 19, 2005

Pirates. Peeps who are attracted to this sport/hobby are almost always folks who would have made excellent Pirates.

1k · May 19, 2005

Pirates. Peeps who are attracted to this sport/hobby are almost always folks who would have made excellent Pirates.

AHOY!

3.9k · May 19, 2005

Hmmm. Ialways saw Germans as the scientific, tech oriented people. (German used to be the world's scientific language.) The French? Well, they're lovers!

Fortunately, the world is a bit more complex than that.

Stereotypes of national characteristics are as inaccurate as racial ones. If you meet a French guy and he's well dressed and charming the pants off all the girls, you'll say "typical French", but you'll tend not to count the nerdy introvert French computer geek. And a German who is, say, an extrovert and demonstrative pizza chef, will probably stick in your mind more as a pizza chef than as a German.

Edited May 19, 2005 by sTeamTraen

May 19, 2005

Did I miss it? What's it for the US?

It was more difficult to come up with the statistic for the U.S., Canada and Australia because the cache look up is divided by state, meaning you have to go through all the states and add up the sum of the individual counts. However, as I am still stuck at home getting over this neverending cold I'm thinking to start a new thread with the U.S. state statistics.

Pirates. Peeps who are attracted to this sport/hobby are almost always folks who would have made excellent Pirates.

Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

May 19, 2005

I'm Asian and I love geocaching. That isn't too odd is it? I'm sad that the question of race even got raised...In my experience, people's interests have very little to do with the color of their skins. That was evident in my effort to introduce geocaching to my friends...my failure/success rate is about the same to my white, black, asian and hispanic friends.

I think it has to do with culture, social standings and economics. But that line of thoughts doesn't always work. I can't convince my wife to geocache! My kids are lukewarm to it. Yet I'm consumed. From that I'm convinced we should not stereo-type.

May 19, 2005

Here in SoCal we see folks from all types of backgrounds: Black, White, Pacific Islander (Hawaiian), Native American, Persian, Hispanic, Asian... you name it, they're out there and caching.

I'm surprised that this topic has produced so much response in such a short amount of time. The thought never occurred to me to think of the game in context with race.

May 19, 2005

I'm surprised that this topic has produced so much response in such a short amount of time.

That would be a by product of the interweb.

Nice post BTW.

20.7k · May 19, 2005

Pirates. Peeps who are attracted to this sport/hobby are almost always folks who would have made excellent Pirates.

Yo Ho! Yo Ho! A parrot's life for me!

May 19, 2005

Geocaching is a predominantly white sport because there are more white geeks than black geeks. Other than Steve Urkel and Lamar Blackman,(from the old Air Jordan Commercials) name one geeky black guy...I dare you. Not sure why the asian population isn't into it yet. Have to do some research. Most geocachers I know, myself included, are just a pocket protector and a slide rule waiting to happen. What you have to wonder is why are white, middle class, 30-50 year old males so driven to go out and buy gadgets FIRST, and THEN figure out what they are good for?

(written with tongue firmly pressed against cheek)

Edited May 19, 2005 by bunkerdave

May 19, 2005

Geocaching is a predominantly white sport because there are more white geeks than black geeks. Other than Steve Urkel and Lamar Blackman,(from the old Air Jordan Commercials) name one geeky black guy...I dare you. Not sure why the asian population isn't into it yet. Have to do some research. Most geocachers I know, myself included, are just a pocket protector and a slide rule waiting to happen. What you have to wonder is why are white, middle class, 30-50 year old males so driven to go out and buy gadgets FIRST, and THEN figure out what they are good for?

(written with tongue firmly pressed against cheek)

What???

May 19, 2005

Geocaching is a predominantly white sport because there are more white geeks than black geeks. Other than Steve Urkel and Lamar Blackman,(from the old Air Jordan Commercials) name one geeky black guy...I dare you.

(written with tongue firmly pressed against cheek)

Oh my God, BD is still alive! BTW, it's Mars Blackmon.

1k · May 19, 2005

... Most geocachers I know, myself included, are just a pocket protector and a slide rule waiting to happen. What you have to wonder is why are white, middle class, 30-50 year old males so driven to go out and buy gadgets FIRST, and THEN figure out what they are good for? ...

The stereotype that you describe is pretty common among geocachers. When I was in 7th grade, during the post-Sputnik era, when it was cool to be a nerd, I actually did wear pocket protectors full of mechanical pencils, and carried a slide rule (and knew how to use it).

There are plenty of other cachers who, while not geeky males, are nonetheless caucasian. And I know plenty of geeky, gadget-happy, web-oriented asians who don't seem the least interested in geocaching, and look at me like I'm crazy when I try to explain it.

Somewhere, someone must have done a study on the psychology of leisure activities. With any hobby--either you "get it" or you don't. I don't get golf, for example. Why would I want to waste a day outdoors on that? And fishing--if I never go fishing again, that's OK with me. And mountain biking--you want to ride a bicycle where? I used to love sailing, but gave it up because it was too expensive (talk about your caucasian dominated sports!). Some people I took out on my boat just couldn't understand why I didn't want a motorboat. They just didn't get it. It's the same with geoocaching.

I'm pretty sure that "getting it" is partially dependent on environmental factors, including economics and cultural traditions, but also partly dependent on personality, which in turn is partly genetic. So it is not surprising that there is some correlation between ethnic background and the popularity of various hobbies. It's the old nature vs. nurture discussion that has raised controversy in the world of psychology and anthropology for decades.

May 20, 2005

Do we need affirmative action for geocaching?

You must declare your race when you find your intended cache. If too many Caucasians find it, their logs will be deleted until non-Caucasians reach parity in finding it.......

1.4k · May 20, 2005

Most geocachers I know, myself included, are just a pocket protector and a slide rule waiting to happen.

So what's the difference between those who are "waiting to happen" and those who "already happened?" :antenna:

And to the sarcastic question about affirmative action on Geocaching... NO WE DON'T WANT THAT. Politics --> legislation --> over-regulation --> irreversible damage. Check out the threads on the South Carolina Senate Activity and Anti-jeep Contests From a Florida Native.

Laws, whether good or bad are hard to undo.

Edited May 20, 2005 by budd-rdc

May 20, 2005

Geocaching is a predominantly white sport because there are more white geeks than black geeks. Other than Steve Urkel and Lamar Blackman,(from the old Air Jordan Commercials) name one geeky black guy...I dare you. Not sure why the asian population isn't into it yet. Have to do some research. Most geocachers I know, myself included, are just a pocket protector and a slide rule waiting to happen. What you have to wonder is why are white, middle class, 30-50 year old males so driven to go out and buy gadgets FIRST, and THEN figure out what they are good for?

(written with tongue firmly pressed against cheek)

That's an unfounded statement. The company I work for has been praised as a model of a diversified workforce. I'm in IT. I know geeky black guys.

May 20, 2005

Do we need affirmative action for geocaching?

You must declare your race when you find your intended cache. If too many Caucasians find it, their logs will be deleted until non-Caucasians reach parity in finding it.......

Maybe not in this way. But maybe by (as another poster put it) "stacking the photos" on the home page a little, one might be able to make the sport more welcoming for minorities.

May 20, 2005

Yea buddy. I think briansnat's post is about as thoughtful as this thread's gonna get. Someone oughta put this one outta its misery.

Leatherman's avatar could do that for you

May 20, 2005

Do we need affirmative action for geocaching?

Maybe not in this way. But maybe by (as another poster put it) "stacking the photos" on the home page a little, one might be able to make the sport more welcoming for minorities.

Considering the pictures are likely just randomly culled by algorithim from the database, you would need to write a bit of code that tells the computer to look at the skin colour of the subjects. Unless, of course, you want TPTB to have to spend huge amounts of time sorting through pictures, and making sure there's a racially sensitive mix displayed. I'd rather have them working on cache-related things.

This thread could have been interesting discussion about the diverse people doing caching, if the topic had been something like "The Demographics of Geocaching". They we could have talked about all sorts of socio-economic factors.

May 20, 2005

Considering the pictures are likely just randomly culled by algorithim from the database, you would need to write a bit of code that tells the computer to look at the skin colour of the subjects. Unless, of course, you want TPTB to have to spend huge amounts of time sorting through pictures, and making sure there's a racially sensitive mix displayed. I'd rather have them working on cache-related things.

The photos have to be sorted anyway for the quality pix. It's obviously not a dump of all photos. One look at people's photo collections will tell you that.

This thread could have been interesting discussion about the diverse people doing caching, if the topic had been something like "The Demographics of Geocaching". They we could have talked about all sorts of socio-economic factors.

Why don't you create your own if your dissatisfied instead of whining about it.

Edited May 20, 2005 by RakeInTheCache

1k · May 20, 2005

...This thread could have been interesting discussion about the diverse people doing caching, ...

I think it has been interesting. There seems to be less diversity than might be expected based on a sample of the population, however--which is apparently what prompted the original post.

24.7k · May 20, 2005

...But maybe by (as another poster put it) "stacking the photos" on the home page a little, one might be able to make the sport more welcoming for minorities.

Why? Geocaching itself doesn't really care who hunts a cache or not. It's essentially as close to a perfectly free will activity as you can find. Meeting other cachers is a low probability event and with a bit of care you can make it a zero probability event.

You are free to pick the group who you feel is under-represented and show them caching. It could be that you will have great success, or you could find out that they are as represented as they are ever going to be. I've done this with everyone I know. Some will do it with who they know. Word will get around.

If you have a chemistry background you can think of it in terms of Vapor pressure. Each race, creed, nation, economic group, social class, geek factor, and other factors interact in complex ways. Each unique combination has it's own Vapor pressure of the quantity of their constituents who will geocache. All you can to is introduce each segment to the geocaching ‘atmosphere’. You could spend billions studying the how’s and why’s and maybe even glean useful information. But you won’t be able to make people cache who don’t want too, and I'm not sure you would spread the word faster than it's going to get there anyway.

May 20, 2005

A couple quick thoughts here. First, I have some Scottish heritage, McKillop back there somewhere. And I am brown, or Brown.

Secondly, I have noticed that this sport/hobby is dominated by right handed people.

1k · May 20, 2005

...
Secondly, I have noticed that this sport/hobby is dominated by right handed people.

Yes--but is the proportion of right-handed geocachers roughly the same as in the general population?

May 20, 2005

A couple quick thoughts here. First, I have some Scottish heritage, McKillop back there somewhere. And I am brown, or Brown.

Secondly, I have noticed that this sport/hobby is dominated by right handed people.

I'm not fitting in very well at all. LOL a left handed minority who'd of thought. I wll be crushed if you guys tell me only guys that rode the long bus cache.

May 22, 2005

A couple quick thoughts here. First, I have some Scottish heritage, McKillop back there somewhere. And I am brown, or Brown.

Secondly, I have noticed that this sport/hobby is dominated by right handed people.

I'm not fitting in very well at all. LOL a left handed minority who'd of thought. I wll be crushed if you guys tell me only guys that rode the long bus cache.

I think we need more photos of left handed cachers on the home page.

1k · May 22, 2005

...
I think we need more photos of left handed cachers on the home page.

actually, if we reverse some of the photos L-to-R, it will seem as though we have more left-handers.

2.6k · May 22, 2005

...
I think we need more photos of left handed cachers on the home page.

actually, if we reverse some of the photos L-to-R, it will seem as though we have more left-handers.

Yay, we could also use some photo negatives in order to make it seem we had more non-caucasian cachers.

1k · May 22, 2005

Yay, we could also use some photo negatives in order to make it seem we had more non-caucasian cachers.

:huh:

5.7k · May 23, 2005

D & L Godet! They have been caching together since Sept. 27th, 2003. Same day I started. Coincidence! Anyway, we have biracial couples, too! Gotta love America! I know I do! They make a cute couple. I helped move some of there travel bugs and they have visited some of my caches. So who really cares about race anyway?! The whole *dadgum* (gotta love the forum sensors!) world is one big melting pot anyway! I am so fricking mixed that I can't totally track down what the heck I am!! I know I got a little Native American in me (I live on a reservation) so, I got that part. A little German, Irish, Italian, Polish, and who knows what else. Whatever! I guess that I am one of the few who doesn't care what I am because the only race I really belong to is the human race!!! If everyone had that mentality, the world would be a hell of alot better place to live in!!

Up until right now, I never realized that 'Italian' was a race. Polish yes but Italian?

5.7k · May 23, 2005

Here in SoCal we see folks from all types of backgrounds: Black, White, Pacific Islander (Hawaiian), Native American, Persian, Hispanic, Asian... you name it, they're out there and caching.

I'm surprised that this topic has produced so much response in such a short amount of time. The thought never occurred to me to think of the game in context with race.

I'm with you on that one, 100%. My theory is "idle minds".

24.7k · May 23, 2005

...Up until right now, I never realized that 'Italian' was a race. Polish yes but Italian?

Hell I'm not sure most people know what race really is. I would of thought Italian was a race before Polish. My step brothers and sisters like to think they are Hawaiian, but they are really Polish and Filipino. The French are decended from a German tribe, Oh and where did the Prussians go?

1.8k · May 23, 2005

How about...... people cache. just people.

May 24, 2005

I'm brown. And I get stares when I go fishing at Allegan Dam all the time. So, I have some apprehensions about geocaching. I dont think people feel comfortable around a brown man looking for caches :blink:

May 24, 2005

<--- Wonders if it's any coincidence the race thread was started by the same troll, er, person that started the gun thread?

Geocaching : A Caucasian Sport?

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