Ethical Or Not?

May 7, 2005

I'd like some clarification on this. I have seen many log entries where the person who found a cache removed more than one item from it and I want to know if that's "playing by the rules." In fact, I've seen it in logs often enough that I did it myself on two occasions when the second item was a fishing fly, and of course I left two (or more) equally valuable items in trade. Nevertheless, my conscience nagged me when I got home because I don't really know for sure if this is an acceptable practice. What's the official stand on this?

May 7, 2005

I don't know about the "official" policy on this but, I look more at value than quantity. If I take out multiple small things and replace with one "valuable" thing I feel like I did the right thing. The vice versa has been more of a problem for me...take something nice and leave a larger number of small things...seems like trading down even though it might not be.

I also view TB's as a completely different thing...but that's probably another thread.

May 7, 2005

Thank you for your reply. The question came directly as a result of reading a log where another person had "lifted" two geocoins. I thought this was decidedly unfair to future people looking for the cache. But then when the shoe was on the other foot and I was faced with a TB that had been in a cache for several MONTHS as well as a fishing fly I really wanted to add to my collection, greed prevailed. I took the TB and the fly. I'll be moving the TB along to a new cache in a day or two, so I felt I could excuse myself (kinda). (And hopefully some trout will gobble the fly some day soon, thus relieving me of the physical evidence )

9.1k · May 7, 2005

If the TWO items that you left at the cache in exchange for the fishing fly had, in your honest opinion, an equal or greater value, you did fine or even traded up the cache because it has more items to choose from.

I left the travel bug out of that analysis. Travel bugs are supposed to travel, and you don't need to trade for one in order to take it. I rarely trade swag anymore, but when I see a bug I can help, I will usually pick it up.

22k · May 7, 2005

Thanks for the cache! Took the dirty golf ball, left three more just like it. Trade even or trade up!

3.9k · May 7, 2005

Thank you for your reply. The question came directly as a result of reading a log where another person had "lifted" two geocoins. I thought this was decidedly unfair to future people looking for the cache. But then when the shoe was on the other foot and I was faced with a TB that had been in a cache for several MONTHS as well as a fishing fly I really wanted to add to my collection, greed prevailed. I took the TB and the fly. I'll be moving the TB along to a new cache in a day or two, so I felt I could excuse myself (kinda). (And hopefully some trout will gobble the fly some day soon, thus relieving me of the physical evidence )

Geocoins are TBs. You can take all of them, unless the cache has some restrictions on this (you sometimes find "TB-in/TB-out caches", for example).

Here's a useful model: imagine that the TBs are in a section of the cache box marked "TBs, help yourself" and the non-TB goodies are in a section marked "trade only". The confusion arises because cache boxes don't have compartments.

5.7k · May 7, 2005

Thank you for your reply. The question came directly as a result of reading a log where another person had "lifted" two geocoins. I thought this was decidedly unfair to future people looking for the cache. But then when the shoe was on the other foot and I was faced with a TB that had been in a cache for several MONTHS as well as a fishing fly I really wanted to add to my collection, greed prevailed. I took the TB and the fly. I'll be moving the TB along to a new cache in a day or two, so I felt I could excuse myself (kinda). (And hopefully some trout will gobble the fly some day soon, thus relieving me of the physical evidence )

Geocoins are TBs. You can take all of them, unless the cache has some restrictions on this (you sometimes find "TB-in/TB-out caches", for example).

Here's a useful model: imagine that the TBs are in a section of the cache box marked "TBs, help yourself" and the non-TB goodies are in a section marked "trade only". The confusion arises because cache boxes don't have compartments.

There is no confusion.

2.4k · May 7, 2005

I have taken several items and left one. Let's see, from one cache I took a dirty, holey sock, some wet scrap paper, and a broken McToy, and left something, can't really remember what. I don't really think I left the cache any poorer.

38.2k · May 7, 2005

Travel bugs and trackable geocoins aren't the same as regular trade items and many geocachers don't count them as one. They are a sort of game within a game. Since the point of them is to move from cache to cache I don't see any reason for not taking one in addition to any trade items, as long as you plan to move it on

May 7, 2005

Thank you to all who have replied. Now we seem to have raised a second issue. I am clear with regard to TB's and circulatinggeocoins. However, the ones in the cache I spoke of in an earlier post were uncirculated, and therefore very collectible. One person visited this cache shortly after another player deposited the coins and removed two or three. I kinda got my nose out of joint because I was hoping to be able to find a collectible coin (as opposed to one which should remain in motion). As it turned out, when I visited the cache myself, there were two uncirculated coins remaining. I took one and left one for the next person. I felt that removing more than one was hoggish in the extreme.

May 10, 2005

Go ahead. I seldom take anything so we will just balance each other out. :mad:

2.2k · May 10, 2005

It sounds like your ethical standards are well within the *high* end of geocachers.

I would say just do what you think is right and don't worry about what anyone else is doing!

May 10, 2005

I usually take 2 items when my kids are with me, but for each item I take I make sure we leave something of equal value in return

Edited May 10, 2005 by microtaz

May 10, 2005

Here are the general rules I play by (in addition to trading up):

If I'm with other people, and they have trade items, we can each swap an item. Three people = three items swapped.

If I see a TB, I don't generally consider it a trade item, but I will usually leave something in trade for it anyhow. So I might take the TB and one item, and leave two items.

On several occations, I have seen two items I really, really wanted. I only took one, except this one time... In other words, sometimes I break my rules. :lol:

If I see something that should not be in a cache -- like candy -- I will remove it without trade. This has only happened twice.

If I see something that is totally ruined, like paper items that are soggy and torn, I will remove those as well.

I always leave a sig item in addition to trade, unless it's a micro where I'm swapping very tiny items, usually other sigs.

Luna

July 28, 2005

I always stuff my pockets with plenty of trade items each time I go after a cache. That way, if I open it up and find several cool things I like (or travel bugs), I can take all of it and leave a whole bunch of new stuff. I see nothing at all wrong with this, as long as I maintain or increase the inherent "value" of the cache. From dealing with caches I own, it's always fun to see a whole bunch of new items when I check on them.

At the same time, if I don't want anything in a certain cache, I will take all the crappy stuff (bent up stickers, dirty toys, broken junk, etc) and leave really good things. I usally end up tossing the junk stuff and I will reflect my "cache clean up" actions in the log.

The good thing about this method is that if you're faced with the unfortunate situation where you leave your trade items in the car and you find a cache with a prize or a TB you want to take, I say go for it anyway. Since you've been unloading such kick-a** prizes on a regular basis up to this point, you're already way into the plus column of prize exchange geo-karma, and one mistake won't hurt.

In short, if you make a regular habit of leaving dollar bills, really good toys, useful gadgets, keychains, DVDs or CDs (etc., etc.), you should not feel any guilt whatsoever for taking all that you want from any cache.

11.3k · July 28, 2005

This has been said in the Forums many times:

Travel Bugs are NOT trade items. They are supposed to travel.

You do not need to leave anything in trade if you grab a TB to move it along and/or further its goal.

3.8k · July 28, 2005

Some examples of ethical caching from The Geocachers' Creed:

If you exchange trade items, trade kindly: Consider what future finders would like and leave something equal to or better than what you take.

Don’t collect traveling items meant to stay in the game. This is tantamount to stealing.

There is nothing about the number of items you take or leave. Just the value.

July 28, 2005

I felt that removing more than one was hoggish in the extreme.

I would concur

22k · July 28, 2005

I felt that removing more than one was hoggish in the extreme.

I would concur

So that's how you two play the game. Good.

Personally if I'm getting uptight about the little things in life it's time to get naked and go bowling.

(note, no smilies)

July 29, 2005

I felt that removing more than one was hoggish in the extreme.

I would concur

So that's how you two play the game. Good.

Personally if I'm getting uptight about the little things in life it's time to get naked and go bowling.

(note, no smilies)

Its just that imo the reason that a person would leave more than one coin in a cache would be for more than one finder. If I read a log that that someone left a few and I tried to get to the cache to get one and then be disappointed by someone taking some or all of them wouldn't that disappoint you. Please excuse me if I have misinterpreted your post it's been a long long day.

22k · July 29, 2005

I felt that removing more than one was hoggish in the extreme.

I would concur

So that's how you two play the game. Good.

Personally if I'm getting uptight about the little things in life it's time to get naked and go bowling.

(note, no smilies)

Its just that imo the reason that a person would leave more than one coin in a cache would be for more than one finder. If I read a log that that someone left a few and I tried to get to the cache to get one and then be disappointed by someone taking some or all of them wouldn't that disappoint you. Please excuse me if I have misinterpreted your post it's been a long long day.

No, you didn't misinterpret me.

I'm just not going to get upset about two geocoins out in the world that I didn't get to log. Much less come here and ask is it ethical or not.

There are much more truly ethical issues out there. This ain't one of them.

Whether taking two geocoins is appropriate or not, I really don't care.

Just my opinion.

11.3k · July 29, 2005

:lol: :laughing:

Oh well . . .

July 29, 2005

Just my opinion.

Yes it is and thank you for it.

22k · July 29, 2005

Just my opinion.

Yes it is and thank you for it.

Thank you for hearing me out.

July 29, 2005

The number of items traded shouldn't really matter, if you trade up. It's also bad form to clean out a cache. Be fair in your trades, and try to leave something someone will want. Most people will order a happy meal if they really want the toy, but there are so many unique items to trade -- foreign coins, neat crystals, geodes, baseball cards, iron puzzles, chainmail hackey sacks, dancing giraffe puppets, swag-bags, hand-made sig keychains and other items -- all things I've traded, found and traded for-- that trading up is not a problem if you use a little creattivity.

That said, I agree, TB's, jeeps and geocoins are free trade items, meant to travel. I've just ordered my MD Geocaching Society coins, and I fear that they will go the way of most of the jeeps -- into private collections. For all who are reading this-- MY GEOCOINS ARE TO TRAVEL FOREVER. If you want to collect them to keep, they are $5.50 from the MD Geocaching Society. Sadly, this seem to be the fate of "specialty items"...

Repeat after me, "I solemnly swear to never keep a travel bug, jeep TB of any color, geocoin of any kind, nationality or organization, or any other item explicitly meant to travel..."

July 29, 2005

In general I agree with the postings already in this thread - that hitchhikers (Travel Bugs, geocoins) are supposed to move from cache to cache, and therefore do not come into play when trying to decide if you have made a "fair trade" of items in the cache.

While on occasion it makes sense to trade unequal numbers of items (I have done so myself), I try not to make a habit of taking more items than I leave. If most folks routinely did so ( say take 2-4 items and left one), then caches would have fewer and fewer items until they were down to one (or zero). Of course the reverse is true as well - if everyone left more than they took, then eventually you wouldn't be able to close the container!

I have seen this before, both as a question and as a complaint, and it often ( but not always) centers on kids. Yes, it is great when each kid can take a "treasure" - and that is part of the fun for kids. But try to imagine you arriving with your kids, and you find that there isn't enough items for each kid to take one - because the three finders before you all "took 4, left 1".

As I already said, there is no hard and fast rule - other posters gave very good examples of leaving few number of items when taking. Just use the same philosophy as CITO - am I leaving the cache in as good or better condition as when I found it? If you feel that you are, then go right ahead. If you are having second thoughts, then listen to them - they are probably trying to tell you something.

July 29, 2005

Just my opinion.

Yes it is and thank you for it.

Thank you for hearing me out.

Well sure Bluedeuce, but maybe I should clarify something it has been a long day in my above post I said that (if someone took some or all of them) I should have added that if you went to search them out and none were left then that would disappointing, now if I was not able to get to the cache before as many cacher's as there were coins then I would consider that (you snooze you lose).

July 29, 2005

Trade up or Trade even!

Some of us get enjoyment from the Hunt and almost never take anything unless a special item is located!

Some of us get enjoyment from obtaining items ..... Some from giving items!

I'd say that over the long haul .... out trade tally is way on the UP side .... and that makes our conscious happy. We have helped moved travel bugs thousands of miles. See "KLIA" below.

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=81937

Most important is that we have made a lot of new friends and the cushions on the couch are starting to come back to shape.

:blink: ImpalaBob Going group kayak caching after work today!

July 30, 2005

yes you can't remove more than one... Where would it end....taking the whole stash and container to a whole new location....or not placing it at all.....I've come across many caches removed by muggles....or idiot cachers....

5.7k · July 30, 2005

It is not a question of ethics. It is just a question of doing the right thing. This ought to be a simple thing to figure out. Otherwise just don't bother trading, there is nothing requiring that you do a trade at any cache that you find. If you do trade just follow the simple guide: "Trade up, trade equal, OR don't trade" :blink: This guiding statement allows you to trade just as many items as you desire, though you might want to set a personal reasonable limit. And another thing, never use the word "rule".

Edited July 30, 2005 by Team Cotati

July 30, 2005

I typically leave more than I find, to help re-stock the caches. Normally, if I'm caching by myself, i don't take anything, but do leave a couple of items. If my boys are with me, then that means that we are taking two items, but we always leave equal or more than we take.

I think the rule of thumb is, if you take more than one item, then you should leave an equal amount of items. :blink:

5.7k · July 30, 2005

I typically leave more than I find, to help re-stock the caches. Normally, if I'm caching by myself, i don't take anything, but do leave a couple of items. If my boys are with me, then that means that we are taking two items, but we always leave equal or more than we take.

I think the rule of thumb is, if you take more than one item, then you should leave an equal amount of items.

Boy, that sounds like a really good thumb guide.

Edited July 30, 2005 by Team Cotati

1.9k · July 30, 2005

Boy, that sounds like a really good thumb guide.

you should see his FTF prizes too!

Its a shame that people cant trade fairly. I helped another cahcer in setting up a cache which we called the Holiday Stash. The idea was to change the contents very few months based on the holiday season (ie Xmas, Easter, 4th of July, Halloween) and make this a themed trading cache. This was sset up for the kids in a great park and not a bad walk, with a slight off trail walk. People couldn't follow the simple instructions and the cache within 2 weeks was just about junk, not tomention it was not even close to remaining within the theme. We had to change it to a MO cache since after reading the logs and such, it was the nonmemebers who were the ones trading poorly. (This is not an attempt of me to open the debate of members vs. non-memmbers but just an observation of this one cache). It doesn't matter whether or not you say something on the cache page or not. It doesn't matter how many items you trade as long as you leave the cache in as good or better shape than when you found it. I personally only trade when the kids are with me, or if theres something that cacthes my eye for them. But I always try to make it nice for the next finders.

edit to fix linky

Edited July 30, 2005 by pghlooking

July 31, 2005

I don't know about other areas but here I find lots of "trash" in caches. Glass, cig.buts, nails, ect... For that reason I have chose to make any of my future caches, "First finder prize only." I dont want all that cra_ in one of my caches. I may add a prize at different times but thats it.

If I ever find a cache with nice things I have a box of nice trade items to use there. Most of the times I take nothing.

5.7k · July 31, 2005

I don't know about other areas but here I find lots of "trash" in caches. Glass, cig.buts, nails, ect... For that reason I have chose to make any of my future caches, "First finder prize only." I dont want all that cra_ in one of my caches. I may add a prize at different times but thats it.
If I ever find a cache with nice things I have a box of nice trade items to use there. Most of the times I take nothing.

Admittedly I have only found 170 some caches. However while I have seen items of low monetary value, I have never seen actual 'trash' as you describe inside a cache container. As for the area surrounding the cache location, now that is another story entirely. Dang, the number of two legged pigs in our society is truly astounding at times. :rolleyes:

Ethical Or Not?

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