HoppyFamily

Sounds like a grand adventure indeed! Can't wait to see what caches come out of this discussion. Very interesting about the geo-tag you found. Perhaps an independent working on a cache hide? Certainly not us.

I inquired about the cache saturation issue when hiding our Bucket o' Fun. The response I got back from The Mad Reviewer was that only the posted coordinates and the final cache need to be .1 miles away from other caches. Coordinates or clues are okay within the limitation, especially considering that they are at a different "elevation."

A good discussion outgrew the confines of the Bloomington Geocachers email list, so we're moving the discussion here and opening it up to the rest of the Groundspeak community. Eric, aka PoppaHoppy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (posted to the Bloomington Geocachers Group email list three days ago) All, After creating the Bucket o' Fun cache, I've been thinking about hiding a cache that would be even more intense and fun - a cache hidden in the Jordan River tunnel that runs for over a half-mile under downtown Bloomington. Of course, the LittleHoppies won't be able to come along and it would be unwise for me to go it alone to explore and make the hide. I know we have some extreme cachers out there who for whom this might be appealing (you know who you are!) Anyone interested in joining me on this? I think we'd need an exploratory trip to scope out the tunnel - who knows what's down there - will we need ropes? A boat? An ogre- slaying knife? After checking it out we can discuss the container, the hide, or any multiple stages we think we might need to come up with. After those decisions are made, a return trip will be needed to place clues and make the hide. Obviously, we should attempt this soon since the weather (and water) is getting cooler. Who's in? Eric aka PoppaHoppy of team HoppyFamily Reply Ray Todd Stevens to me show details Sep 20 (3 days ago) On 20 Sep 2009 at 5:41, HoppyFamily wrote: I am not sure this is a good idea. For one thing I believe that this is actually illegal. But more important we do have someone killed by going in that tunnel and getting into the drain system in Bloomington every few years. It would be bad to add geocaching as another reason that this happens. Reply the mouse to me show details Sep 20 (3 days ago) I'm in. I have thought about a whole series in the drainage system. (ok, I've got one planned 0.1 miles upstream of my cache, and I've been meaning to check out what they did on the other side of bryan park. ...and I kinda keep track of which construction projects use really big pipe... ...I'm just to lazy to get out there and place them... I believe the whole thing downtown is still walkable, I have not been in the downtown stuff for quite a while. Large sections of old brick tunnel were replaced with preformed concrete sections, (when was that,? 10-15 years ago?) I believe I overheard that while the lot next to chipotle is empty they will work on the tunnel under there... The thing does move a lot of water at times and there have been close calls fairly recently. I don't remember any deaths, but it is easy to imagine. I don't know how the gc community feels about these kinds of risks, but I'm all for helping explore! ...it'll make me feel like a little kid. *Smile*Justin Marshall Thompson to me show details Sep 20 (3 days ago) Hey there, My name is Justin (jmthomps) and I grew up in Bloomington. I'm a college student attending the University of Vermont, but I still call Bloomington home. I'm coming back home for Lotus Fest next weekend and would LOVE to go and scope out the tunnels with you. A few questions first though. Have you ever been into/through the tunnels? Have you done so since the reconstruction a year or so ago? And lastly, as cool an idea as this is, from what i've heard this is extremely dangerous and lives have been lost in the tunnel. I'm interested in the idea, but a bit skeptical about pulling it off, or making it legal. Nonetheless, i'm on board. Would you like to go next weekend? -Justin Maria Solomou (Geomafiosa) to Bloomington show details Sep 20 (3 days ago) Geomafiosa is definitely up for it. Yes, we need some extreme geocaching experiences and I would love to set up a couple (or more ) I have done some extreme geocaching (GCWA47, GC175HV, GC1KQC2, etc...) and I have plenty of ideas! I am setting up a couple of multicaches already, but I am still working on them. Let me know and we can start working on them. Geomafiosa Shannon Hess to me show details Sep 20 (3 days ago) My husband Kirk and I are interested. We didn't know there was a tunnel! Reply HoppyFamily to Bloomington show details Sep 20 (3 days ago) Death is obviously not cool. But a 5/5 cache properly advertised as hazardous shouldn't give us any pause. I think we can make it quite clear on the cache page what the risks are. I have an email out to the Mad Reviewer asking if he would approve a tunnel cache in general and specifically if it would be okay to paint logos or icons of some sort inside the tunnel (like the infamous Tube Torcher cache). I'll let you know his reply when I get it. But Mouse makes a good point. Construction on one section of the tunnel (422 Kirkwood) begins Monday, and will go on for about 45 days. I for one don't want to be down there when they are literally collapsing the roof in. Maybe a mini-excursion near the entrances, but I won't be willing to get within several blocks of that construction area. Perhaps a warm Novemebr day when construction is complete - otherwise Springtime? Eric I'd be more than willing to lend a hand with these. Keep me posted! Reply the mouse to me show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) Well, I probably just demonstrated that I'm more stupid than I look. *Smile* I just spent a couple hours wandering around, a good chunk of it under ground. ...I get a bit obsessive sometimes, and I just could not stop thinking about the tunnels. So after the radar showed absolutely nothing scary coming our way I grabbed a few extra flashlights and a headlamp and ditched anything not water safe. I started east of the ISU. The water really was not very deep or moving very fast, but before I made it to dunn meadow I had water over the top of my boots. There are 2 tunnels under the ISU, a short canyon in view of a staff parking area connects them. There are some deepish spots and the floor is uneven. Some adventurous students probably wander through, but I doubt anyone frequents it. Together the 3 parts are a bit of a walk, and it might be a good introduction, to get peoples' feet wet. I had planned to keep going downstream, but when I got to the meadow I noticed a branch feeding in from underneath 7th and woodlawn. I'd never gone that way, and I was out to explore... The tunnel turned out to be pretty torturous. It seems to have been extended and patched extensively, so it changes regularly. The height was always enough to allow walking, but only in very rare cases enough for me to stand up. In quite a few sections the water has worn a channel into the floor, in places close to knee deep. There are a handful of pipes run right through the tunnel forcing an under/over choice. In one section the form for the ceiling was made from sheet metal which has rusted and started to fall. The concrete is still sound, but you have to dodge through the metal hanging down. The air seems stagnant, and it just seems to go on and on... I made it to the end of the main tunnel. I'm pretty sure I was on 10th street near Fee, but it seemed much further underground... ...and then I had to turn around and go back... I followed the biggest side tunnel and found an 8' square room with a bolted down grate in the roof. I think it is at 39.17105, -86.52037 In general this is a pretty cool tunnel, it's kind of creepy, it's a bit small, but I'd say it fairly safe, and I bet it gets almost no foot traffic of any kind. It feels pretty strange that you can just walk into it, no grate, no signs, not even a fence... I imagine it would trigger claustrophobia in noticeable fraction of people. After I made my way out of that one I was pretty beat. but I did go downstream a bit more. Getting to the tunnel under Indiana is a bit tricky. Probably the easiest way would be wading from where the banks are low. I would guess most people are going to get water over the top of their boots in the pool just before the tunnel. Going under Indiana it's a pretty cool old arched tunnel. Quickly you get to the new stuff, all flat edges, although there is a weird step in the north wall. I could walk upright most of the way to Dunn, there is a dip in the ceiling in the middle of that run that made me stoop a bit. Basically an easy walk in wet shoes. There is a sharp left at Dunn, and the height goes down to the 3 foot range. At that point I turned around and went home. *Smile* There are still some exploitable feature even in the newest sections, so if paint is not allowed I think it will be possible to attach a label or container. The turn at Dunn even has a little protected nook, I bet a 5 gallon bucket tied to a concrete block would stay put... ...I should sleep well tonight. Have fun planning! - Show quoted text - Geomafiosa is definitely up for it. Yes, we need some extreme geocaching experiences and I would love to set up a couple (or more ) I have done some extreme geocaching (GCWA47, GC175HV, GC1KQC2, etc...) and I have plenty of ideas! I am setting up a couple of multicaches already, but I am still working on them. Let me know and we can start working on them. Geomafiosa Reply Stuart Baggerly to me, Bloomington show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) I've been thinking about this some more over lunch. You've usually got at least a foot or two of concrete over your head. I know my newer GPSr will go through pick up through the steel roof here at work (usually), but I don't know about underground. Technically, there's no signs that say "keep out" or anything like that. I'm not sure what the legal status of that area is. I've been in there, just not all the way through. In any event, I'd be up for the scouting mission. One of those folding camp chairs in the bag that slings around your shoulder would be a good idea. I remember (its been years) that you can't really stand up (so DJHobby is gonna LOVE this one!) and there's not really anywhere to sit. So having a way to give your back a break would be a relief. I do remember a rat issue. Not like an Edgar Allen Poe deal or anything, but I did see a couple. There are a few places where there are surface access ladders. You can kind of stand there, and maybe run up the ladder to get a reading. If we did a scout and took the chairs I would be cool to have a little mid-trip picnic in there. It's a fresh water creek going through so there's no sanitation going through there. (Whew!) I'll be interested to see what our reviewer says. -Monstercatambush Reply Eric Bolstridge to bloomingtongeo. show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) I've been in touch with the Mad Reviewer - he's okay with caches in tunnels of any type (re: Bucket o' Fun). I emailed again asking about the Jordan River tunnel under Kirkwood and his only caution was no painting, no defacing of anything or destroying of the tunnel structure. Zip-ties, wire, or bolts, etc. to secure containers or coordinates on tags are okay. With the rain this week, I'm staying out of tunnels for a while. I'm glad to have kick started this conversation, though. I'd like to see some good "urban spelunking" adventure caches out there. I expect to see one hide from each of you soon Eric Reply Jessica Falkenthal to sbaggerly, me, maiaki4u, CAbrams show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) I'm very curious as to the legal ramifications of having a sewer cache. For the hiders and the finders. I don't want anyone to get arrested while they're caching, when they assume that the geocache wouldn't have been hidden without permission. Do we need to get permission for this cache to prevent legal problems for all involved? If so, who? I've read several articles online related to hiders being arrested or fined for certain types of hides. http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2006/01/19...rorizes-police/ has someone getting charged for something that seems very similar to littering. Who technically owns a sewer system? And is it different if the tunnels go under IU? I was a little curious when hunting another Bloomington cache this weekend, if I had been doing this alone during the schoolday or at night, if someone might call the IU PD. Jess Reply Stuart Baggerly to Jessica, me, maiaki4u, CAbrams show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) Hey All: Here's a copy of an e-mail I was getting ready to send the mad reviewer when I got the message that he said tunnels were okay. I think, under riparian water rights law, there can be no restriction on access to a flowing body of water. As I note in this message, I'd be happy to ask someone at city legal what they think. My concern would be that they might want to blow off hundreds of years of law that says you can walk down a creek due to concerns with liability. As noted, it only floods a couple times a year. But those two times are DOOZIES! Anyway, my message to Mad is as follows: Hey there: Monstercatambush here. As noted before, I know you're not supposed to be chatty with the players, so no response is required. Just some thoughts. I got a message from some of the Bloomington cachers discussing doing some kind of multi-cache that involves the Jordan "River" tunnel under town. I don't know if you're familiar with this thing, but having lived in town since around 1979 I know a little about it, and thought I'd share some of that information. The tunnel has been there, holding up fine, since some time in the 40's. It was purposely built very strong since roads and buildings are built on top of it. It is typically around eight to ten feet across, and a little less than six feet tall. It is built to allow heavy rains to drain off, so there are no obstructions or cave ins. Short of like going down a shotgun barrel. It does bend around a little bit. When they made it they kind of followed the natural creek, but kind of limited the number of turns. Parts have been replaced over the years with modern, rectangular cross section concrete. The original parts are sort of like Roman via-duct construction with pretty massive blocks of stone that's almost an arch nearer the roof. No sewage goes in, so there's not really a bacteriological concern. I did see a few rats last time I was in there. That's been years ago. There are no signs or markers indicating NO TRESPASSING. I'd be happy to check with the city and see what their take on it is. Under Indiana riparian law principles there's not supposed to be any limitation on access to a flowing water course. My thought is that there's no absolute restriction on going in there, but they'd probably rather you didn't. There are any number of access points across town where man holes can get you down there. These things usually weight a ton, though, and shouldn't be considered as "safety hatches" by any means. I bring this last issue up due to the one negative I could see here. 99 days out of 100 the Jordan "River" is at best ankle deep. On those other couple days, though, look out! About twice a year we have a flash flood and it goes through there like a freight train. I can't remember anyone getting killed, but one guy did take an unexpected trip through there a couple years ago and came out one soggy puppy on the other end, having had about four inches of breathing room up top. He was kind of a dope, though, and was playing around the obvious whirlpool like feature where the water from the flooded meadow was sucking in there. Anyway, we'll talk amongst ourselves on this end and see what's what. I know some folks in city legal so I can feel them out on this issue. As always, the decision of the reviewer is final And as always, thanks for being a reviewer. Monstercatambush Reply Stuart Baggerly to me, bloomingtongeo. show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) Uh oh... just saw that last part of the message... "I expect to see one hide from each of you soon" I may have one or two out there already, but I'll get on it! (Okay, just kidding! Sorry I missed the event. We're going for the bucket this week!) -Monstercatambush Reply Eric Bolstridge to Jessica, sbaggerly, maiaki4u, CAbrams show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) My thoughts: For Hiders: I suppose it's like anything - sure it's best to ask permission first. But I think we know what the answer would be if we called up the department of public works and asked about crawling through sewers. The same goes for most 'urban' hides - I doubt Wal-Mart would approve of people lifting light-pole skirts and I doubt the fire department wants people messing with hydrants. To me, urban Geocaching must be "don't ask, don't tell" otherwise we simply wouldn't be able to have the hides we have. For Finders: Each cacher needs to asses the risk (legal and otherwise) involved in making a find - if you're not prepared to talk your way out of a situation, don't seek a cache that might alert security guards or cops (like we had to do one time when we got busted by mall cops hiding a cache! So embarrassing trying to explain Geocaching to Paul Blart!) Eric Reply Crystal Abrams to me, Jessica, sbaggerly, maiaki4u show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) I like the idea of the “sewer” cache, however with the rains and such that have been happening the past few days, is there any other ideas out there that would work for a 5/5 cache, or even a 5/? Cache? Stuart Baggerly to Crystal, me, Jessica, maiaki4u show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) Eric has a couple good points. Given the culture of litigation I doubt that the city would give us the stamp of approval for the tunnel. I think its notable that they have never (I've been here since '79) had any kind of "no trespss", "keep out", or "no access" signs of any kind around this thing. I'd think if they could legally restrict access they could. For the Hiders: The law around riparian rights (rights to access to free running bodies of water) has developed since the country started. It originally dealt with attempts by some huge land owners to say that settlers couldn't take rafts and canoes up or down certain creeks or rivers since the landowner owned both sides. By application of the United States Constitution Commerce Clause it came to pass that, if the water is moving, you can move along in it. They've also covered that, sometimes when creeks are low, people had to walk, towing their boats. As long as you're in a public place when you step in , and when you step out, you're good to go. This is why you can wade to fly fish up and down Clear Creek, but have to step in at one of only a few public access sights. As I recall, the place where you'd come out, a little South of Seminary Square, is a little chunk owned by the city, (fair game!) but we could scout that. At the very least, the walls of the chanel there are city property, and you can climb up them onto South Walnut (also city, and fair game.) And, technically, this is NOT a sewer. It is a creek that pre-dated Bloomington. (i.e. a riparian free body of running water) When the Dunn family still owned most of the land campus is now on there were cows in Dunn meadow (hence the family name) and they used this for a water source. (Hostorical note: If you go all the way East on Atwater, staying with it when it turns two way, you run smack into the old Dunn family farm house on the edge of the St. Charles property. That was ONE BIG FARM!) For the Finders: Whether or not you read it when you sign up, there is a waiver of liability you agree to that is pretty much bullet proof. Groundspeak is covered, as are the reviewers and hiders of caches. By logging on and downloading you essentially say "I know what I'm getting into and I take full responsibility for my own actions". Sooooo... dear friends... where does that leave us? I'd say if this is going to happen the city can't be in the loop. They'd have to say "no". Not just "no", but "HELL NO!!!" Not that I think they have the right, but they're a beurocracy and they're going to want to cover their a**(ets). I know I'd said we could check with City Legal, but thinking it through a little more they could have only one answer IF THEY KNOW ABOUT IT. Like I said, in thirty years the city hasn't put up anything to say you can't go in there. That speaks volumes to me. -Monstercatambush Davis Jr, Donald F to bloomingtongeo. show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) Hey all, I don't want to be an old stick in the mud but here is another thing you ALL had better be aware of and take very seriously!!!! You ALL will be entering a "confined space". I'll let you all look up the definition of that. The dangerous part of all of this is something none of you will be able to see until it is way too late. Without accurate and calibrated equipment sewer gasses are a real KILLER here! ONE breath of it and you are dead. It has no smell or taste. It may also be here one minute and not the next due to small air movements. I am forced to go thru this training here at work,yearly that is how I know. Our classes were taught by Bloomington Fire Department. So what happens, as you all go in one by one to see what just happened to "joe" who just fell down, it's your turn for one breath and so on until there is no one left. Or everyone dies trying to make the rescue. This has happened many times. P L E A S E.........find out about this for your selves about these gases BEFORE you venture in and how to protect your selves!!!! Crystal Abrams (briar finder), I think has a friend in a fire department? They will be the ones who come to retrieve the bodies.... The flooding is only 1 of your concerns. A tragedy could really give our caching a big black eye. GEOCACHER: Dobroplayer.... Don Will Petrovic to Bloomington show details Sep 21 (2 days ago) I'd love to help, this sounds really cool! Will Reply Stuart Baggerly to dfdavis, bloomingtongeo. show details Sep 21 (1 day ago) DobroPlayer raises a good poitn Always good to favor the side of caution. But I think this gas issue would be more of a concern in, say, a septic tank, a storage tank, or a closed narrow pit. (where the heavier gases collect) Since this is not a sewer, but a fresh water stream, there is strict IDEM monitoring of anything that goes into the Jordan. And since, though possibly claustrophobic, it is open at both ends and vented along the way, I think we'd probably be all right on the gas issue. I'd also note that the gradiant only drops a few feet (if that) along the entire length we're talking about. The "confined space" concern arises when you have a vessel or geographic feature that precludes gas dispersing. Any heavier than air gases (such as methane or propane) that might have leaked in the Jordan tunnel would disperse across the ground and eventually out the ends. Any lighter than air, but inert (i.e. you suffocate) gases would similarly disperse unless they were entering in such a vast quantity that storm drain lids would be blowing off all over town. I also have to think that if there was even a vague suspicion that anything toxic was under bloomington there'd be headlines out the ying yang. I remember when they re-modeled the old Standard station (now a BP at 3rd and Indiana) back in the early 80s and a lady that lived in a house where the law school parking lot now is complained of a "faint gassy smell" in her basement there was all hell to pay. Tuned out to be a very minor leak, but it was fixed quickly, and I haven't heard another complaint of a gas pocket or buildup since that one. Not that I'm dismissing DobroPlayer's concerns. Exchanging concerns makes for sound decision making. If this actually WERE a sewer, with the attendant sewage that would produce methane, I wouldn't be worried about gases because there's no way in heck I'd be wading in poop to get a geocache. I don't care HOW cool a FTF prize there is! Again, this is more like going into Patton cave, or walking the old rail road tunnel out long Lake Lemon. By all means, though, if someone (as suggested) knows a fireman or someone that can weigh in I'd listen. I'm sure what we'll hear is (a) there's no poison gas in the Jordan Tunnel, and ( keep out of there, (since that's what people always say about things like this). -Monstercatambush Reply Stuart Baggerly to dfdavis, bloomingtongeo. show details Sep 21 (1 day ago) DobroPlayer raises a good point: - Show quoted text - out along Lake Lemon. By all means, though, if someone (as suggested) knows a fireman or someone that can weigh in I'd listen. I'm sure what we'll hear is (a) there's probably no poison gas in the Jordan Tunnel, and ( keep out of there, since that's what people always say about things like this. -Monstercatambush Reply the mouse to bloomington show details Sep 21 (1 day ago) Yes, this is a dangerous activity. The risks should probably be considered before jumping in. Like all such things some people will think the risks are justified, while others do not. Confined spaces have a wide array of dangers, OSHA is concerned about the ones that affect workers. I view the dangers in a storm sewer to be very similar to the dangers in natural caves. This area has a _lot_ of experienced cavers. I have yet to see any gas monitoring equipment being carried through a natural cave. Specifically, we are not on top of an active volcanic site, and the conditions are not swamp like, so the biggest poison dangers should not be a problem. Asphyxiation is a problem in a tank where (generally heavier than air) gases can collect, but the storm sewers we are talking about have an air space along the entire run and surface grates fairly frequently. The air will seem stale sometimes, but usually not as often as in a small natural cave passage. Convection and diffusion will move the air, but it tends to get humid... While underground I fear a freak thunderstorm more than anything else, but there are lots of ways to get into trouble. In the end I am probably more likely to be sued for giving candid advice than to get into serious trouble in a tunnel. So, I'm one of those people who think wandering around in tunnels is an adventure, and worth the risk. It's better than wandering around my basement, checking for gas leaks, anyway... Reply djhobby to Bloomington show details Sep 21 (1 day ago) Geocachers, I'm not sure if I want in on the hide or not. Simply because I want to find it, and get the smiley for a great cache. But because of the ultimate coolness factor, count me in. As far as the danger aspect of the cache, the danger should be assessed properly and the finder should be made well aware of the dangers. There are plenty of caches that the finder assumes some risks, just hiking around here you could get snake bit. With a little searching, you will find caches at the bottom of the ocean, in the Himalayas, and even in a abandon factory at Chernobyl. There are hundreds of caches in Iraq in a war zone. There are some earth caches in Louisville/New Albany area on the Ohio that require the finder to call a number before searching to make sure flood gates will not be opened during your visit. We just have to make the finders aware of the dangers. - Show quoted text - Reply Reply to all Forward Invite djhobby to chat Reply Reply James McDermott/ pondscum72 to Bloomington show details 11:25 PM (21 hours ago) Hey All!!! O.k. my understanding is that this tunnel is 4-5 foot round, concrete and has water running through it regularly? As a firefighter/emt I would say that its not advisable to attempt to place this cache here. As a caver... I would say ROCK ON!!! So somewhere in the middle I would say...If it is placed within a short distance from either end it would be a little safer. This way if water starts to rise quickly you have a decent chance to get out. Now the real downer... We all know that caching and pretty much anything else has inherent risks but if someone happens to get injured, the cache owner opens themselves to liability. I know most of us would NOT sue, but there are those that are looking to make a quick buck. Also it may not be a sewer, but there are definitely nasty bacteria present. Any geese in the area..nasty critters carry E. coli. just a few things to think about. I would be willing to make the trip with you given enough notice. I work 24 on, 48 off. I have rope, a couple of harnesses and some hardware that could be of use. Please let me know and I will make arrangements to come along.... Pondscum72(James) Stuart Baggerly to CAbrams, djhobby, Bloomington show details 10:22 AM (10 hours ago) Hey all: I think I might be the only one getting in on this discussion that has actually been in the tunnel. Dobroplayer has legitimate concerns in general, I just don't think they apply to this location. The interior of the tunnel is more like one of those tunnels you drive through on the highway in West Virginia than a cave or pit. There is virtually no debris in there. I think the biggest problem would be finding any place to hide anything. Not every cache is for everybody. We're all slightly off kilter or we wouldn't be playing this game. When we're exchanging our thoughts on this tunnel thing, or in any discussion, there are going to be differences of opinion. If I disagree with someone that doesn't mean I do not respect their opinion or that I am ignoring same. I think that holds true for almost everyone involved in this discussion. Two caches come to mind that make this tunnel idea look like a cake walk. Ponce de Geone and I recently did the "July 1, 2001" cache, and Geomafiosa (Geomafioso?... Can't get that right) recently did "Tube Torcher II". Take a minute and look up those two. The "July 1" is a 5/5, just because the numbers don't go any higher. We were warned there is a REAL chance to get hurt, and to be careful. Even to call a let people know where you left your car in case you don't show up for work on Monday. I ended up in the ER with an ankle sprain and managed to rip a good gash in my arm (treated in the field) but I loved every minute of it. I checked out the pictures posted for "Tube Torcher II" and I really wish I'd have gone along on that. Wisefrog had invited me to go on that road trip. That one's underground in muck and crud and running through storm drains. Cachers are warned to check the weather. Those tunnels look fierce! When you read the description the hider puts about two dozen stars on it, again, since 5/5 is as high as they go. On this local tunnel idea: Some of us adore the idea, and some abhor the idea. We can agree we disagree, but lets keep cool about it. Just because it's a game doesn't mean it isn't serious. Like DJHobby notes, people climb mountains, people deep sea dive, people jump out of planes. Those are games, too. I took a horrible beating on the Ocoee river a few years ago in a kayak (Ponce de Geone and some other boaters caught my boat and gear below the rapids, I've still got scars from that.) I'd still go again. Anyway, here's the two caches I referred to above. That July 1 cache is REALLY dangerous... You'd have to be nuts... (but it is only a couple hours away!) GCWA47 Tube Torcher II GC1DPDA July 1, 2001 the mouse to Bloomington show details 10:27 AM (10 hours ago) Actually, the Jordan River tunnel, along with others that run very far under town is way cooler (and a bit more dangerous) than a round tunnel. They never get to work on the whole thing at once, so it changes profile and composition regularly. It starts with a cool old stone arch with a kind of rough floor under Indiana. Then the "new" section under the alley is huge, roughly rectangular, ~15' wide and the ceiling ranges a bit. I can walk upright in some places, I have to duck in the middle. At the turn to go down Dunn it gets quite a bit shorter, but stays wide. I remember the older sections being fairly rough stone with a more square aspect in the 4' to 6' range, but it has been quite a while... Any time water is flowing through dunn meadow it is going down this tunnel, so most of the time there is some flow. I think I remember all the creeks drying up during some really hot dry summers when I was a kid... -mouse Ray Todd Stevens to CAbrams, djhobby, Bloomington, sbaggerly show details 12:23 PM (8 hours ago) I think the real point here would be to make sure that people know what the danger is. Just a 5/5 is as is pointed out is not good enough. Say this is dangerous, and that during any rain storm it is likely to almost instantly fill with water. I have seen several caches which indicated that if you were caught doing inapproriate things to "grab" the cache your visit would be deleted. I think a statement that any find which indicates the person went during a thunder storm or thunderstorm watch for the Bloomington area will be deleted would be very smart. Then all that is needed is a way to put the cache in place nicely. - Show quoted text - Justin Marshall Thompson to bloomingtongeo. show details 3:49 PM (4 hours ago) I have also seen caches with ALRs (Additional Logging Requirements). However I think, more so than threaten the risk of your log being deleted, we should emphasize the risk of severe injury or your life being lost. I'm all for this idea, and I can't wait to get in there, but losing credit for your find is one thing. Losing your life is another. If we saw any logs of people who went to find the cache during a thunderstorm they would have to be crazy, or Aquaman. Looking forward to seeing where this goes. I'm going to be back in Bloomington this weekend. Does anyone (preferrably someone who has gone through before) want to go check it out. Not necessarily all the way through (because of the construction coming up), but just an excursion. If not, maybe another tunnel/cave? Thanks everyone! -Justin (jmthomps) Maria Solomou to jmthomps, bloomingtongeo. show details 4:33 PM (4 hours ago) Hi all, OK it took me a while to catch up with all this email exchange. So, here is my potentially useful take/story/considerations/thoughts... 1. When I was doing the Tube Torcher II in NC, I was aware of the potential danger of the experience, something that should be emphasized in the cache description. Also, the cache owners had my contact info (cell phone) and we were in constant communication, something that as owners we should be willing to do as well. Note that the whole geohunt took a whole weekend of intense crawling and crouching through ALL the sewers of the city...hehe perhaps we don't want it to be THAT intense, since we don't have as big and... hospitable tubes Also, when we were in a huge sewer, rain drops started falling outside (we were half way in a 2mile central tube) and the flush was absolutely intense. I am not sure if we want to make our cachers feel the "Indiana Jones" feeling that we had! In fact, with smaller sewers, the danger is probably higher, because of the ease of moving around. 2. I agree with the bacteria issue, and the whole health thing. ... in fact, here is some info that we found out, after we returned home: "The first flush from urban runoff can be extremely dirty. Storm water may become contaminated while running down the road or other impervious surface, or from lawn chemical run-off, before entering the sewer. Water running off these impervious surface...s tends to pick up gasoline, motor oil, heavy metals, trash and other pollutants from roadways and parking lots, as well as fertilizers and pesticides from lawns. Roads and parking lots are major sources of nickel, copper, zinc, cadmium, lead and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), which are created as combustion byproducts of gasoline and other fossil fuels. Roof runoff contributes high levels of synthetic organic compounds and zinc (from galvanized gutters). Fertilizer use on residental lawns, parks and golf courses is a significant source of nitrates and phosphorus." 3. If we want to provide our fellow geocachers an extreme experience, we want to make it meaningful. So embarking geocachers on a dangerous journey must be something that is really worth the whole effort. The TT2 guys spent many months creating that cache; It took them 1,5 year to do Tube torcher 1 and then it was destroyed from construction works... it then took them an additional of 6 months to fix the whole thing and come up with TT2. So one thing that we want to consider is the maintenance of such a cache, on top of other thngs (we don't want to create a "perfect" experience and then see it being destroyed by the bouldozers! 4. I am trying to get the map of the tubes of the city from the GIS Coordinatod of Utilities, in order to create a similar multicache (only in milder versio) as a trubite to our extreme experience. I am half way through the design, which involves more than sewers and tubes (I only have a couple of small tubes that are safe, as well as a couple of sewers). But I need more info about where some user friendly places could be around town for such a thing. We can use the tubes map to see what secure places there are for the cache. Let me know and I am willing to meet to start. Looks like extreme geocaching is taking over Bloomington fir good! I'm so excited about it. I'll get back to you with anything else pops in my mind, even randomly Cache on! Geomafiosa -----Original Message----- Reply Stuart Baggerly to me, Jessica, maiaki4u, CAbrams show details 5:46 PM (2 hours ago) Hey all: Whew... sorry for all the drama today. That kind of got out of hand. I think most of us are open to this concept. It was probably a good idea to pare down the mailing list to some of the more open minded folks. Honestly, there's no way for gas to pool in an area with this many openings. I hate that Dobroplayer got mad. I hope he comes back. That all being said. Check out this map. -Monstercatambush Clear_creek.pdf Hey gang, Now that you've assembled a list of interested parties to partake in building out this adventure, can we take this conversation off the e-mail list? I assembled everyone who expressed positive interest in going forward with helping explore this in the TO line of this e-mail. That was a massive amount of e-mails in the past 48 hours and I think that many Bloomington Geocachers are a bit overwhelmed by it. Also if we could refrain from referencing the Bloomington Geocachers group in the setting up of this cache, it would be much appreciated. I'd prefer that our Bloomington Geocachers group not be endorsing potentially dangerous caches. I'm not saying I wouldn't try this cache myself, but I'd rather keep the group name free from any potential connections. At some point, having an organization like the Bloomington Geocachers can assist in mediating discussion between geocachers and the local government/law enforcement (Other geocaching organizations have been created for this specific purpose before) and I think our group might need to be an impartial, "not-connected" organization to be treated seriously. Thanks guys! Jess

I think cache saturation is definately a real problem and the answer isn't as simple as "I like caching, so the more the merrier!" Consider it from the perspective of someone with only a few hides near their home... Most caches in my immediate area haven't been found in several weeks (some months!), whereas they were previously being found quite regularly. I think the fact that there are so many new caches popping up in this same small area is partially to blame. For example, there are 14 caches within 2 miles of our home coordinates that have been placed by a single user. And he's currently starting up a new series of 12 cache hides within that same area. With 42 total hides in the past year(with most being of the unoriginal "small cache in the woods" variety), his being able to continue to place caches in this area only serves to make the game less enjoyable for others who have hidden caches here. The more caches that are hidden, the less often each individual cache will be found. Simple as that! So, yes, while a ridiculous number of caches may be fun for the "seekers," it makes it much less fun for "hiders."

I have a couple caches that are a block or so away from the Metrotrain (subway) just over the river from DC in Virginia. Both are micro caches but still offer trading opportunities. GCPZCQ: Dark Star Cache and GCPGW9: State Quarters Plaza Both are wheelchair accessible, right from the sidewalk.

I too am pleased with the article. He really covered all aspects of the game well. While Airsafety was representing the big-time cacher it looks like I was included to represent the "casual cacher" and offer up examples of urban caches. I took the reporter around to a couple of caches in my "State Quarters" series. I was also the first cacher he met up with for the story - He had no clue about GPS, finding compass direction, or where a cache might be hidden. He did mention that he was meeting up with a very experienced cacher later that week, and I knew it had to be one of the DC area heavies, and indeed it was. I was thinking it would be PyroNorm or FlyingMoose, but it looks like Airsafety got the honor. Good times! -HoppyFamily AKA Eric, Tris, & Mark

Hey, I would appreciate the ol' vote, too. My Jeep is working hard helping out our boys in bronze. Check it out: White Jeep "Elmer" Thanks!

Hey, I would appreciate the ol' vote, too. My Jeep is working hard helping out our boys in bronze. Check it out: White Jeep "Elmer" Thanks!

I got the Geko 101 as a gift a while back, and got turned on to caching shortly after. I like it - it's simple, easy, and I don't mind typing in the coords myself. Then again, you don't have to type them in at all, just read the "current position" and figure out what direction to go in (more West, less North, etc.) I like it plenty, and feel no need to upgrade at all. Plus, it's basically waterproof and semi-shock resistant.

I hid a series of three urban micros a couple miles outside of Washington, D.C. for no other reason except that I work in an office tower right there. To my pleasant surprise, because one of them is right near a metro station, lots of out-of state people visiting the city are logging it to score a Virginia cache find. It's cool to have a cache that is sought out and found for that reason. State Quarters Plaza Cache

Well, since everyone else is putting them up, vote for my Jeep, who spent the weekend helping out our men in bronze: http://www.geocaching.com/track/log.aspx?L...73-97c81249a2c7

I always stuff my pockets with plenty of trade items each time I go after a cache. That way, if I open it up and find several cool things I like (or travel bugs), I can take all of it and leave a whole bunch of new stuff. I see nothing at all wrong with this, as long as I maintain or increase the inherent "value" of the cache. From dealing with caches I own, it's always fun to see a whole bunch of new items when I check on them. At the same time, if I don't want anything in a certain cache, I will take all the crappy stuff (bent up stickers, dirty toys, broken junk, etc) and leave really good things. I usally end up tossing the junk stuff and I will reflect my "cache clean up" actions in the log. The good thing about this method is that if you're faced with the unfortunate situation where you leave your trade items in the car and you find a cache with a prize or a TB you want to take, I say go for it anyway. Since you've been unloading such kick-a** prizes on a regular basis up to this point, you're already way into the plus column of prize exchange geo-karma, and one mistake won't hurt. In short, if you make a regular habit of leaving dollar bills, really good toys, useful gadgets, keychains, DVDs or CDs (etc., etc.), you should not feel any guilt whatsoever for taking all that you want from any cache.

Heh, a similar thing happened to me the other day, but the other cacher showed up <i>after</i> I found the cache. When I found the cache I walked about 50 feet away to a bench on the other side of the trail to go through it and sign the log. I usually do this at the cache site, but the site was too visible from the busy trail. While I was doing this, I heard two people tromping around in the woods. They were definately not being stealthy, as I heard them shouting: "Do you see it??" "No, but my GPS says it should be right here!" "Maybe look under the log!" So, I kinda made a guess that they were looking for the cache. Anyway, I didn't want to sit and wait for them to give up and leave (the cache was rated a 1.5/1), so I walked up to the guy and said "Err, um.... I have it" and I handed it to him. Well, he seemed fairly grumpy and acted like I ruined his hunt. Sheesh, would he rather that I let him not find it at all?