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The First "no Members" Cache


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I would like to add that I will place an Anti-MOC too if a MOC pop up in "my" area as I don't like the GC community to be sepoerated into diffrent groups.

Is it just me, or is this fuzzy logic? Allow me to rephrase to see if I understand correctly:

 

I do not like it when people do a certain thing, and in order to show my displeasure, I'm going to do the exact same thing! That will show them!

 

:huh:<_<

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As you can see from his posts here, this guy speaks perfectly adequate English. His "15 miles of bad road" are at your expense - and if you'll read his comments above you'll note he logged his laughter.

 

It's amazing to me that people who don't understand a word he typed are jumping up to defend his Berlin plant as "the first non-members-only cache" here.

It's not relevant whether Gernot90 speaks perfect English or not - if he's posting a cache in Germany, is it not reasonable to post the description in the local language, so locals would understand it? The gc.com front page says there are caches in more than 200 countries now - and I betcha a lot of players don't even have English as a second language. Each to their own.

 

I don't see my responses as 'defending his plant' so much - Slider & I are premium members, so we wouldn't be eligible to log his cache either. The argument is moot - the cache, as posted, meets all the gc.com guidelines. Jeremy has also endorsed its existence, if only on a trial for the time being.

 

There was a principle argued here last week that caches should be within the gc.com guidelines, and these guidelines were not open to negotiation. This cache meets the guidelines, and yet some participants are arguing that this fact now doesn't matter - it shouldn't have been allowed because it prevents some people in Berlin from being able to log a find. That's what I'm trying to get my head around.

 

Please don't make assumptions as to how much of the post I understood ... you're not the only one here who speaks German. As to the fact he logged his laughter at the resulting kerfuffle ... why does it matter to you what his response is? I thought some of these responses were pretty funny too - my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

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I have no idea how the German Cachin' Community is, but I'd suspect that someone who gets their find deleted will just go back and TCLN. (Take Cache Leave Nuthin') I'm SURE that would happen here. Especially if the guy is making some high minded threat to hide more of the same.

On the contrary I am rather sure that this will not happen. The majority of geocachers in German speaking countries does not like the idea of MOC. Note that the MOC that lead to the Anti-MOC is Germany's first and only MOC. There exists no MOC in Austria and (AFAIK) a single one in Switzerland. I am familiar with several geoaching fora in German speaking countries and I can assure you that the general attitude towards the MOC concept is rather negative there regardless of the member status of the involved cachers. Those being able to read German, can have a look at the the thread in the German speaking subforum. They will observe that quite a number of PMs welcome the idea of Gernot90 and would do the same in their area if a MOC pops up there. The goal is to keep the number of MOC small and not to annoy any PM. (The feedback of most German PM that contributed to the German thread shows that hardly anyone got annoyed if anyone at all.) In my opinion, the ideal situation would be no MOC and no Anti-MOC in areas where they are not well received.

 

Cezanne

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My personal opinion is that the cache description should be in the local language and english, but that's not on-topic here.

 

It's amazing to me that people who don't understand a word he typed are jumping up to defend his Berlin plant as "the first non-members-only cache" here.

I'm not sure if you read my postings and if not, may I ask you to please read them? For example in this posting which was also qouted by Gernot90 here I gave some details the OP didn't mentioned about the cache and which are lost IMO in the so-called translation. So readers of the whole thread do know about the cache and it's history including the regional spezifics without the need to read german. However, there seem to be several who do not read the whole thread.

 

To repeat it again and to make it clear: It's not to cut PM out but to have a balance between caches for PM and non-PM, so everybody has the same amount of caches to find. Even better, as soon as the MOC isn't MO anymore, the amount of caches for everybody is doubled as the restrictions for the Anti-MOC will be lifted as well. It's win-win as soon this happens. And may I add again at this point that if a MOC pop up in my region, I will place an Anti-MOC too. And yes, I am a Premium Member, but I don't think that caches should be for exclusive groups and I believe that there are several better ways to support Groundspeak (or any other listing you choose). Team DaSH, this is also the answer to your question. It's something like showing a mirror to someone else, but not in a destructive way like mentioned from others in this thread but in a constructive way to offer the possibilitie to have two caches for everybody and not one for PM and nothing for the others.

 

Regarding the DNF-logs from the US-based cachers: I think it's impolite but it's your decision. I will not look for MOCs in the US to post a DNF just because I don't like the concept. I do accept of course that MOCs are widely accepted in many regions but you should understand that they are not in Germany. IMO the answer is a creative way to show the owner of the MOC that the choosen requirement to log (and a MOC can't be seen in any other way than a requirement to pay) are not good for our hobby/sport but divde us in groups as this thread proves. I do not like that at all as I think that we are aone great cmunity. Again, Berlin will have two instead of one new cache as soon as the MOC isn't MO anymore.

 

The OP already tried to make the focus of the discussion wider (beside the very narrow title) in this posting to other requirements, so I think I won't be OT with the following: I knew and learned again, that the requirement to pay to log a cache is fine with a wide part in the US. So what do you think about the requirement that you have to place a Travel Bug to log a cache? Or that you have to have a certain amount of finds? Or that you have to have green hair? Or that you have to leave a foreign currency coin inside the cache? [some of these examples are hypothetical, some are real: PLEASE, do not go to the cache descriptions and post something, please leave the discussions in the forums which are offered for this purpose.]

 

Greetings,

Tobias

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Here is a better translation of the German Cache Listing:

 

Micro on the Kreuzberger Lohmuehleninsel.

 

First an important preface: This cache may not be logged by a premium member!

 

The Cache represents an opposite of the first Premium Members Only Cache which can only be logged by regular members. In order to maintain a balance of caches in Berlin, I will place a No Premium Members cache for every Premium Member Only cache placed in Berlin. If the Premium Members Only cache is made available to everyone then this cache will be made available to premium members. Until then I will check the profiles of loggers and will delete the logs of premium members since they do not meet the requirements of this cache.

 

Now however to the Cache:

It is meant as a drive-by and is placed just off the thoroughfare. Watch out for Muggles. Enjoy the view of the new Berlin landscape even if it is obstructed by the fence.

 

The fence does not have to be climbed to get to the cache. I copied the hiding method of another cache in Berlin for this one. Cachers shorter than 1.7 meters tall might have a problem finding this cache without aids.

 

The cache only contains a log book so bring something to write with.

 

Have fun looking for it and…

 

end of translation

 

It does not sound to nefarious to me. Berlin is the new capitol of Germany and was formerly divided by a wall. The city is now a symbol of unification for many people world wide so this cache should not be a surprise. Keep in mind that citizens of other countries don't necessarily think like Americans who just aren't smart enough to speak English. Perhaps they have a different point of view.

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I personally have no problem with it & really can't see what the problem is - if you don't agree with it don't go there - he'll get no logs of any sort.

 

I'd be interested to know how many of the people ripping into him are ever going to go to Berlin?? Love it or hate it this is an international sport - there are going to be different rules & sub-rules for different countries & for different caching communities.

 

As long as it tells you in the cache details so you know all the facts before you go I can't see the problem.....

 

I'm a little disturbed by the flamings & the fact that someone seems to have a bee in his bonnet about serving somewhere - it doesn't give you any rights over nationals of that country..... <_<

 

Chalky

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A bunch of people jumped up and down last week because a cache was posted that didn't meet the site guidelines - so it was archived. Fair enough.

 

Now a bunch of people are jumping up and down about another cache that has been posted that does meet the guidelines ... and the poor guy is getting smug DNFs posted on his cache because its doesn't fit a specific subset of the guidelines that have been discussed here. Personally, I think that's a bit rough, and doesn't conform to forum guidelines of respecting others and their opinions... regardless of whether these opinions happen to gel with yours or not.

 

If the point of the game is to not discriminate or disadvantage, should we also modify caches that require photos to include a GPSr in the shot? Is that discriminating against those cachers that don't use GPSrs ? :huh: Should we modify all the underwater caches because not all cachers have a scuba licence? Where do you stop?

 

This cache appears to have been in response to a local situation, and in keeping with the local culture. As no guidelines have been broken, perhaps this thread should be closed - there should be nothing to discuss?? <_<

 

Edit - typos.

Well said. Good to see some maturity coming through in this debate.

 

Regards

Andrew

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Can someone just clarify something for me ?

 

Is an MOC intended to be "only premium members can see it on the site" or "only premium members can log it" ?

 

That is, if a basic member gets hold of the listing somehow, can s/he log it, or will the site reject the log automatically ?

 

OK, that was the point of information.

 

On the topic (and I shall try to stay neutral):

 

I think one factor in there being very few MOCs in Europe is that there are relatively few premium members here either. In most European countries, cache density is a lot lower than in the US, so for example we would typically use GSAK less and so have less need for pocket queries. As a result, there is an implicit culture of "all caches are available for all". If there were, say, 2 or 3% of caches were already MOCs across Germany/Belgium/Holland, perhaps the appearance of the first one in Berlin wouldn't have provoked this reaction.

 

As it is, if I place a MOC tomorrow, it will simply have very few visitors; that isn't why I place caches. Incidentally, I suspect that even if I lived in the US, I wouldn't want to place MOCs, for the same reason: if I place a cache, I want people to find it !

 

I think also that no matter how good peoples' English is, their view of premium membership will be different if they aren't coming from a US perspective. Relatively few Europeans are paid-for members of any Web site; perhaps we're still in an age of innocence about how the Web should work (which doesn't mean that we're all tree-hugging hippies). After all, Europeans benefit quite a lot from sites which host almost entirely US-centric advertising, as they only push up the price of goods and services which we can't buy anyway.

 

I notice when clicking on peoples' profiles that many US members pay for premium membership before their first find (and sometimes you see people giving up after having bought the GPS, paid for premium membership, and failing to find anything!) whereas most European PMs are "hard-core" cachers.

 

This may also reflect different attitudes to consumption in general: I suspect there are proportionately more American cachers for whom $30 is a "why not, let's go for the best from the start" decision. (I consulted a couple of American friends before making this last statement !) In contrast, the otherwise friendly article which the local paper here in France published about Geocaching yesterday, mentioned that some people might consider it an "elitist" sport because you have to spend about $150-$200 on a "gadget" to get started.

 

Anyway, all of that is quite subtle (assuming any of it is accurate), and probably wouldn't be widely appreciated by many cachers. And at a time when bashing all things American just because of their being American is perhaps more widespread than it has been for a while, perhaps the non-MOC was one person's way of having a small protest at "whatever" injustices may have been committed. (I'm not defending, just trying to understand...)

 

PS: There is also, sometimes, an element of naïvety in some of the forum attitudes (but I see this at least as much on, say, the UK forum as the German forum) about the extent to which this entire sport depends on American technology generally, but that's a separate debate.

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The main reason why where are so few PM in Germany (and other European countries) is that it is not easy to send the 30US$ to gc.com if you don't have a credit card.

I'm sure that the number would increase if gc.com had a banking account in one of the Euro currency zone (Euroland) countries.

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only PM's can view it and therefore log it.

 

Ah, but... if you click on "log your visit" (on any cache), the URL is http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=xxxxxx, where xxxxxx is the numeric ID of the cache.

 

A non-PM could get hold of this ID (more or less the same way as s/he got hold of the paper cache listing) and type the above URL in by hand. So the question is perhaps still valid. (And now I've got my "hacking" hat on <_<)

Edited by sTeamTraen
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This may also reflect different attitudes to consumption in general: I suspect there are proportionately more American cachers for whom $30 is a "why not, let's go for the best from the start" decision.

Well Nick, just to pick out one of your arguments:

No, I don't really believe that approx. 20 EUR/year is really keeping someone from becoming a Premium Member. IMO it's rather a question of difficultyin getting the money delivered to the right account (transfer cost are higher than the "Price" for membership as long as there is no account within the EMU.

 

In contrast, the otherwise friendly article which the local paper here in France published about Geocaching yesterday, mentioned that some people might consider it an "elitist" sport because you have to spend about $150-$200 on a "gadget" to get started.

Non, je suis assez sure que le titre "elitiste" faisait une reference a la necessité de comprendre un peu d'anglais pour utiliser gc.com (tout différant du site avec les "cistes", p.e....). <_<

 

BS/2

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Ah, but... if you click on "log your visit" (on any cache), the URL is http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=xxxxxx, where xxxxxx is the numeric ID of the cache.

With a non-PM account you get the page to my surprise where you can enter your log. I will not try if I really can submit anything, but you get the page if you know the ID.

But it's not my point to figure out ways to bypass the choosen requirements nor will I give away the description or the ID to any non-PM as long as the cache owner think the cache should be MO. I would like to see no requirements ...

 

Greetings,

Tobias

 

PS: Yes, I tried it with a non-PM account.

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Non, je suis assez sure que le titre "elitiste" faisait une reference a la necessité de comprendre un peu d'anglais pour utiliser gc.com (tout différant du site avec les "cistes", p.e....). <_<

Or participate in the forum discussions? :huh: (I won't even try to respond in French, it was too long ago!!)

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The main reason why where are so few PM in Germany (and other European countries) is that it is not easy to send the 30US$ to gc.com if you don't have a credit card.

I'm sure that the number would increase if gc.com had a banking account in one of the Euro currency zone (Euroland) countries.

I fully agree to radioscout at this point.

 

Believe it or not, if there where the possibility to pay the money to a banking account in €-Zone, I would already be Premium Member.

 

But even if I would be PM I had placed the NMP Cache anyway.

 

B.t.w. Thanks also to Jeremy and the team of gc.com, that they have the balls, not to archive the Cache immediately.

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And at a time when bashing all things American just because of their being American is perhaps more widespread than it has been for a while, perhaps the non-MOC was one person's way of having a small protest at "whatever" injustices may have been committed. (I'm not defending, just trying to understand...)

It seems that you still did not get the point. There is no connection at all between the Anti-MOC cache in Berlin and the US. The only reason why the different general attitude towards the concept of MOC in Germany and the US, respectively, was brought up here was to explain the readers not familiar with the situation in Germany the background.

I am convinced that Gernot90's cache is not thought as any sort of protest against something American. The first MOC cache in Germany has not been set up by an American, and the protest is not against PMs of gc.com.

 

Cezanne

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Well Nick, just to pick out one of your arguments:

No, I don't really believe that approx. 20 EUR/year is really keeping someone from becoming a Premium Member. IMO it's rather a question of difficultyin getting the money delivered to the right account (transfer cost are higher than the "Price" for membership as long as there is no account within the EMU.

The situation for people outside the US is even worse than that. There is no possibility at all to transfer the money via a bank account. One either needs to rely on PayPal (which is extremely unpopular among a large group of Europeans) or have a credit card and be willing to use it. So even people who are willing to accept high transfer costs, will not be able to become PMs unless they use PayPal (which is unacceptable for many).

 

As a side note for the US readers: In many European countries, it is fairly easy to live without credit cards. There are many people who do not own a credit card and many who would never get one from their bank even if they would like to have one. Moreover, the scepticism towards paying by bank cards is much higher in Europe - I know quite a number of people who object against such payments because it makes their consumer behaviour acessible to the public.

 

On the other hand, even in a region where every cacher is a PM, I am still an opponent of the MOC concept (I am only talking about permament MOCs - I do not care about those that become available to all after some time). I'd like to have the cache listings accessible also to non-geocachers. I do not care that much about logging restrictions, it's the access to the cache pages that plays a much more important role from my personal point of view.

 

Cezanne

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You know, the person who made the MOC did so for a reason.  Do you really think it's fair to them and/or Groundspeak to post methods of circumventing that?

I wrote the same thing some minutes ago in a thread in the german subforum. TeamGuzbach, could you please remove the links? IMO there is no difference between posting/using the links and the DNFs from the US at the Anti-MOC, both is inpolite. So please continue the normal discussion here instead of some sort of spamming cache pages.

 

Greetings,

Tobias

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And at a time when bashing all things American just because of their being American is perhaps more widespread than it has been for a while, perhaps the non-MOC was one person's way of having a small protest at "whatever" injustices may have been committed.  (I'm not defending, just trying to understand...)

I can promise you that my opinion or acting has nothing to do with American or Anti-American. I already pointed out that I think that we are one great comunity of geocachers and not a european, german or even smaler subset. Part of my family lives in the US and I love to visit them. I even pay a special televison program in Germany 33 Euros each month at least for a year to be able to see five months NFL football.

 

MOC or Anti-MOC has really nothing to do with America and I don't think that it helps further to bring up this topic here.

 

Greetings,

Tobias

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Like sTeamTraen, I just want to show that some subpages of a MOC can be accessed easily without being a PM.

If you create a MOC you might want to know that.

 

Actually I don't care about a MOC, a Non-MOC or whatever ...

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Like sTeamTraen, I just want to show that some subpages of a MOC can be accessed easily without being a PM.

If you create a MOC you might want to know that.

I'm not sure if the owner of the MOC in Berlin even is aware of this thread. So the posting of the links might result in some posting on the cache page which don't need to be like those at the Anti-MOC page. I don't think it's a good idea, but you might have another opinion.

To make tbtp aware of this "bug", I think that this forum is the appropriate place.

 

Greetings,

Tobias

 

Edit: tried to make it clearer

Edited by tobsas
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Gernot90,

 

I fully support your rights to do this sort of cache. I hope you support my rights to log it as a DNF also (which you stated you will keep, I appreciate your good sense of humor and now your cache is actually an international super star cache and when I get to Berlin I will log it). I just think its a bit silly to have to censor your cache and exclude anyone, but that is your right and it is within the rules. I don't think that GC.com would ever think about archiving this cache because it is within the rules and as a member of the caching community at large, I thank you for saving one more used film canister and giving it a purpose for being. <_<

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I hope you support my rights to log it as a DNF also

Sorry, but I'd assume that to log it as a DNF you'd at least have to get within 10km of it. I'm pretty sure that if I logged every US Cache as a DNF there'd be a few complaints. Surely common sense & common decency should apply...

 

Some of the attitudes on here seem very childish but it also cheers me up to see that the Geocache forums aren't immune to the "bitching bug" that plagues the rest of the internet... <_<

 

Chalky

 

Edit:Typo

Edited by Chalky723
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Like already said in some form, the anti-MOC doesn't work as a protest very well. I believe no MOC owner states anywhere that they will delete find logs from non-premium members. If you can find a MOC and a way to log it, you'll have the find. Deleting anyone's finds (when they've found the cache & signed the log) is not the same as limiting a listing to premium members.

 

I don't like the MOC concept very much either, and I don't own or haven't owned any, but deleting legitimate finds based on some rules that have nothing to do with being able to find the cache and sign the log is unacceptable in my book.

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I think I will hide a cache with no coordinates. Also, there will be no hints to where it is. You will be able to post that you found it but you cant post that you didnt find it. If you have red hair you can post a note for the cache but if your bald you cannot view the hint. IF your a premium member you can email me for the location but I will not answer, unless you know the secret password. You can only post a found it note between 8 am and 8:01 am on the second blue moon after the smurf has been born.

 

:P<_<

 

I'm going caching..........

:huh::huh:;)

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You know, the person who made the MOC did so for a reason.  Do you really think it's fair to them and/or Groundspeak to post methods of circumventing that?

Do you know? Perhaps the person made it a MOC to make it a real challenge! Searching and finding is the nature of Geocaching.

Well, then wouldn't posting a way to log it without actually doing it dramatically reduce the challenge? <_<

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As I have demonstrated previously, I have no problems with logging restrictions. It all boils down to choice. If you dont like the logging requirements of a particular cache, DON'T LOOK FOR THE FRIGGIN THING. Its plain and simple. Everyone quit your b******g. There are plenty of other caches to be found without getting your panties in a twist over this one.

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As I have demonstrated previously, I have no problems with logging restrictions. It all boils down to choice. If you dont like the logging requirements of a particular cache, DON'T LOOK FOR THE FRIGGIN THING. Its plain and simple. Everyone quit your b******g. There are plenty of other caches to be found without getting your panties in a twist over this one.

For course you don't. You've placed one yourself.

 

I highlighted something in the quote to show you're not thinking much outside your own area. When you've got the density that's easy to say. When you've got a sizable number of huntable caches in your area, it's easy to ignore one or two. However, when your density is a lot less then you might think differently. My nearest unfound list, limited to 50 miles, is very short. Briefly, there was only one on it. Today, thirteen. Six of which we have found, but are not logging out of protest.

 

So, you see, it's easy to say ignore them when your nearst list is several pages long. It a completely different story when it's only a few caches.

 

Any wonder we are a bit more sensitive to what kind of cache goes in around here?

 

I'm not a fan of MOCs or caches with logging restrictions. Call me a traditionalist (if you can call anything about a hobby in it's infancy "traditional"), but I fail to see how it adds to the game. MOCs only barely serves a way to help prevent muggling or newbies asking too many questions on harder caches before they are ready.

 

IMHO, a logging restriction is little different than posting a cache's fake coordinates hundreds of miles away so it shows up on someone else's nearest list and they have little chance of finding it. It is not like creating a harder to find cache or one that takes special skills to complete as that is part of the game. (BTW, IIRC, besides TB and other concerns, the unattainable caches on a user's nearest list was partial reason for restricting the distance away from the actual cache location. I'm sure an interested party could find those threads in this forum.)

 

I guess it boils down to where you think the hunt ends and how much control you have over your cache.

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I guess I just don't understand how non-member caches (or any other logging requirements) will "decrease the number of paying members."

Hi

 

I don't think that was his or her's point. If you read the translation, it appers to be a reaction to someone placing a members' only cache in his area.

 

Regards

Andrew

Okay.

 

But my comment wasn't directed at the cache owner, it was part of a discussion that was taking place in the thread.

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I apologise to the non credit card owners; here in France, everyone who isn't a complete banking reprobate has a card, but I'd forgotten (it's 15 years since I lived in Holland) how little they are used in some other countries. Most French cards are in fact bank account debit cards rather than the 28% APR ripoffs which US/UK residents seem willing to pay for, but the French debit card system is very well integrated with Visa and MasterCard. And in the UK, "everyone" has a card too.

 

That said, I'm quite surprised that the percentage of GCers in Europe who have a credit card isn't higher than it seems to be. Even in those countries where having any credit card is considered something of a status symbol (and for US readers: this mean places like Germany and Holland, not Rumania and Ukraine), I would have expected that the GC "demographic" would have a high correlation with that of card holders. Especially since a GPS isn't exactly cheap either.

 

In fact one can get by OK, even with Internet shopping, in Holland and Germany (etc) because they have efficient payment systems that don't use cheques, and/or (especially in Germany) a substantial tradition of mail order with cash on delivery.

 

However, people who are asking for Groundspeak to have "a European bank account" should take into account that there's not really any such thing. You would need accounts in several different countries (even if you had one for the whole Euro zone, which isn't completely integrated either), and to start those, Groundspeak would have to be registered as a company in those countries, with offices, directors, etc. My guess is that the cost of premium membership would then be more than the annual cost of a credit card <_<

 

Incidentally (and this doesn't help non-card owners, I know) you don't need to sign up for a PayPal account to make PayPal payments. You can pay a PayPal "seller" with your credit card directly. (I also have a PayPal account since I sell stuff on eBay, but before that I was able to make payments without it.)

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Dear Gernot90,

 

I suggest Berlin start it's own webpage (vs dragging this American site into your personal politics).

 

I served Germany in the US Army before the wall fell, and I remember those cold, soggy nights on East German Border Patrol in your name. I learned much. Firsthand. You owe me.

 

I've kept up with you since; don't think I haven't. I know the score between our countries. This paragraph has nothing to do with geocaching save this thread YOU started, so I invite you to email me. We have much to discuss.

 

As far as your listed cache on this site; IN MY OPINION: Take your political caches somewhere else. I have no use for them. At this political point in time you need to own up to your own problems. Americans have done all we can, and I for one won't be freely used to protect you further in your *hobby*. YOU own that problem. Play by *these* rules or play somewhere else. I've already done my part for your entire country, for serious reasons, and I played by the rules. In my American opinion, it's your turn.

 

You and yours don't want to make a contribution - moreover want to shut out those that DO? Fine. Take it somewhere else. (If my vote counted, the American military would do the same).

 

Thanks.

Wow! You accuse the cache owner of playing politics and then proceed to tell him how he and all of Germany owe you something for your military duty in Germany? I'm not sure how you made that connection but it seems like a pretty pompous and arrogant position to take over a cache in a different continent that you don't agree with. :D

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[...] the French debit card system is very well integrated with Visa and MasterCard. And in the UK, "everyone" has a card too.

That's how it is in Finland too.

 

And I tend to agree with you on "a European bank account" -thingy. Having the possibility to pay by credit card now, without PainPal in between, is a great improvement, but I can't honestly see Groundspeak opening accounts in every Euro-country for purchases. :D

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Keep outside politics out of this please. It has nothing to do with a logging requirement for a cache.

I apologise if my attempt to explain a possible reason which I said might have influenced the Anti-MOC placer, has started a "political" debate. I did put "(I'm not defending, just trying to understand...)", which was meant to convene the fact that I didn't think an American attitude was a good thing, but I apologise if anyone thought that I was suggesting that about them.

 

Nick

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You don't need an account in any European country, only one in one of the Euro currency zone, for example in The Netherlands. Money orders within the Euro currency zone are free of charge.

 

Maybe the payments can also be accepted by the Geocaching shops selling the stuff from the Groundspeak shop?

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You don't need an account in any European country, only one in one of the Euro currency zone, for example in The Netherlands. Money orders within the Euro currency zone are free of charge.

It's a bit more complicated than that. The rule is:

- Transfer A: up to 12500 Euros from your account to an account in a different bank in your country

- Transfer B: up to 12500 Euros from your account to an account in a different bank in another "Euroland" country

Then Fee( A ) must be == Fee( B ). It doesn't have to be zero, but it can't be more for a different Euroland country. Similar considerations apply to ATM withdrawals.

 

Most French banks charge for (national or Euroland) transfers. For example, my bank charges 3.65 Euros. That's why I always use cheques (which, for historical reasons, are free in unlimited quantities) to pay individuals. In the case of my bank, these charges are waived if the transfer is made via their Internet banking system. However, that only handles French (national) transfers.

 

OTOH the Netherlands has always had a pretty good interbank transfer system, even if I don't think the banks still give out postage-paid envelopes. (And the Dutch system is, or was, based on more-or-less-guaranteed next-day mail; in France a letter can easily take 3-4 days to arrive.)

 

BTW, once you get over 12500 Euros (not every day, I'll grant you), all bets are off, they can charge what they like. After all, typing "20000" into a computer costs the bank a lot more than typing "10000". ::D

 

Nick

Edited by sTeamTraen
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So I must ask: Why do you try to seperate people?

 

*snip*

 

However, I will not continue the discussion here which we already had in the german subforum.

 

Greetings,

Tobias

Why? Because, the people that support this site with their money, deserve to get some special benefits. If not for money coming in, this site would cease to exist. Now, you plan to punish those who are helping this site to stay running? Bad karma....BAD!

 

Oh...and you will not discuss this any further? Are only German opinions of value to you? If you think this only affect Germans, you'd be wrong. It's a topic on an international forum, and it's now only a matter of time before someone in another country copies your idea. So, we all have a say in this matter. My opinion? You're being childish, and reactionary, by punishing the paying members of this site, that help keep it running for those who won't or cannot afford it.

 

If I lived in Germany, I'd log your cache anyway...and I'd hope that lots of other Premium members did the same thing, to keep you very busy. I would also make sure to place lots of MOC's, and encourage other local paying members to do the same. Not exactly the result of bringing the community back together....is it?

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You don't need an account in any European country, only one in one of the Euro currency zone, for example in The Netherlands. Money orders within the Euro currency zone are free of charge.

It's a bit more complicated than that. The rule is:

- Transfer A: up to 12500 Euros from your account to an account in a different bank in your country

- Transfer B: up to 12500 Euros from your account to an account in a different bank in another "Euroland" country

Then Fee( A ) must be == Fee( B ). It doesn't have to be zero, but it can't be more for a different Euroland country. Similar considerations apply to ATM withdrawals.

You are right. Radioscout referred to the typical situation in Germany (which in this respect is not too much different from the situation in Austria). But even if one has to pay a fee for a bank transfer, the possibility of being able to transfer the money via a bank account helps the people who do not own a credit card (among this group there are also people who are not eligible in their countries to receive a credit card).

 

Transfering money between Europe and the US is unfortunately still such a nuisance. It is hard to believe for me that no efforts are made to make this process easier. I am not refererring to geocaching and a small company like Groundspeak - they are by far not important enough to warrant changes in the system, but there are many areas where the issue plays a big role.

 

Cezanne

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For example, my bank charges 3.65 Euros.  That's why I always use cheques (which, for historical reasons, are free in unlimited quantities) to pay individuals.  In the case of my bank, these charges are waived if the transfer is made via their Internet banking system.  However, that only handles French (national) transfers. 

Nick, would you plz just consider changing your bank... :D

 

Seriously:

I get the transfer to other accounts within the EURO zone free of charge, and if I wanted to make an anonymous paying in to a different account than mine, this would cost me around 2 EUR here. I don't quite see a problem with paying this minimal surcharge to get the annual premium membership.

But: there is no account within the EMU, and I didn't yet find out how to anonymously transfer money via one of my credit cards.

My question considering travelers cheques has been unanswered here, and there are no other checques around here (.at) anymore.

 

BS/2

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Now, you plan to punish those who are helping this site to stay running? Bad karma....BAD!

No, he doesn't. Don't you understand? This cache is not anti-PM. It's anti-MOC. You can be a premium member and not place MOCs.

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No, he doesn't. Don't you understand? This cache is not anti-PM. It's anti-MOC. You can be a premium member and not place MOCs.

If it is not againt PM but againt MOC it should exclude those who place MOCs and not those who support geocaching.com.

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