About These Multicaches......

January 9, 2005

I'm not sure I know exactly what I'm doing.

I've been geocaching about 2.5 months now, I got into it through Where's George. I've got about 55 finds now, and am having to go further and further from my hometown to get more.

A few weeks ago, I placed 3 caches, all have been found at least 5 times now and no problems reported. So my confidence has been built up and I'm ready to try something harder.

My problem? I only have one multi to my credit and there are very few within 75 miles of me, so I'm not sure what I'm doing. The one I found wasn't what I expected, it was only two points and the first one was simply coords written on a rock to lead you to the final cache.

Since what I would like to try is something different I'll outline what I'd like to do and ask you all what you think.

1. I want to create a 5-7 stage multi that leads you about 3.0 miles down an equestrian trail near my city.

2. ALL stages would have an actual cache container with trade items, with the logbook being in the final stage.

3. Each stage would be at least .2 miles from the nearest other stage, and there are no other caches withing 2.5 miles of any stage.

4. Each stage would have a laminated card inside it, showing the coords for the next stage. The card would also ask to be left in that stage for the next cacher to use.

5. In case of Muggle attack or swiped card, I would also have a spot within 25 feet of each stage where the coords for the next stage were written. Probably on a rock like the one I found. The cache page on the site would tell of this so people would know what to look for if they couldn't find a stage.

So, is this something that you all think would be OK? I'm just not sure what the norm is on multis, and so therefore need a little assurance before I go ahead and place this cache. I don't know if people usually have a logbook in each stage, or if people usually prepare for the possible muggling of one stage the way I'm talking about, or anything else about multis except what I can gather from reading the logs on some multis.

All the possible locations have been scouted already, and I really have 7 I like, though I might keep it at 5 if you all think 7 is too many.

I just would like to see something a little more challenging in my area.

Thanks for any help I might get.....

Bilgeratt

January 9, 2005

WOW 5-7 waypoints... Sounds like a lot of work (for you and the finder), not to say that is a bad thing. You seem to have the idea you want well planned out. I would say that having trade items at all the wp's is unnecessary. You can do it if you want to, but it might confuse people into thinking they found the cache when they actually just found a wp.

I have to say that the most wp's I've seen on a cache (that I've done) was 4. Since you say multi's are in short supply in your area, you might consider breaking it up into two 3 part multi's. That way you could place 2 new caches on the same trail system.

Or you could have one multi with 3 or 4 wp's, then create a mystery cache that requires finding all the wp's from the previous cache to get the information to figure out the coords for the mystery cache.

Another thing to think about is the distance you are having people walk to find the cache. Three miles in means three miles back to the car, unless the trail makes a loop. I only bring this up because I don't remember you mentioning that. This could discourage a lot of cachers. Personally I would be all for the hike, it sounds like fun! But I'm one of those crazy cachers that will race out and go for the FTF on a cache that was placed on the top of a mountain, even if it requires an 11 mile round trip hike.

In closing I would say go for whatever idea you like the most. Just be careful you keep all your wp coords straight!

38.2k · January 9, 2005

Think about fewer stages. The more stages you have, the fewer people will attempt it. I think 3-4 stages is a good number. 5 max.

Also, trade items really aren't needed for the interim stages. First they may be confusing for finders, who may think they found the actual cache when they see trade items. Second, you're going to incur uneeded expense in purchasing larger, waterproof containers. With multis you can usually get away with less secure containers because you're only protecting a set of coordinates and a Ziploc in a small Gladware container should be enough for that. A smaller container, with only coordinates also reduces the chance of muggling.

DO NOT WRITE COORDINATES ON ROCKS (or trees for that matter). That is graffiti and the admins will not approve your cache if you do so and mention the fact on your page. It also sets a poor example for novice geocachers (never mind land managers) who may find it and think its an acceptable practice.

Finally, here's a tip. When you place it make it a loop of some sort with the final stage close to the beginning. The actual cache is more likely to require maintenance than the interim stages, so that will make maintaining the cache easier for you. It will also serve the purpose of leading the finder back to their car instead of leaving them off with a 3 mile hike back and nothing to look forwad to along the way.

1k · January 9, 2005

The more stages in a multi, the more chance that at least one of them will go missing, and the less chance that each person attempting will be successful in finding the final.

I have two 2-stage multis, and I have had to replace the stage one micros for both of them. I think a 5-stage multi would be a maintenance burden.

I have successfully found one 5-stage myself, but it took hours, and was the only cache I did that Saturday.

Since this is your first multi, why not try a 2- or 3-stage and see how it goes?

3.3k · January 9, 2005

I think you should leave the trade items in the final cache.

Since the cache hike is around 3 miles, you would encourge more people to find your multis if you made two shorter ones. The reason I say this is because the bigger the challenge of finding your multis, the smaller the group that is willing to find them.

Or you could have one multi with 3 or 4 wp's, then create a mystery cache that requires finding all the wp's from the previous cache to get the information to figure out the coords for the mystery cache.

Here is an example of how one of my mystery multis works, using multiple traditional caches. When the cachers are done finding this cache, they have found a total of seven caches. Most enjoy there experience, and they get more than one smiley for their efforts.

Fox Den Mystery Multi

1.6k · January 9, 2005

You mention that there aren't alot of multis in your area. Anything you do will be seen as 'different' to local cachers who may not be use to change. I'd stick to a shorter series of caches for your first few, and maybe add some sort of 'challenge', like a puzzle or an offset. It's a good way to teast the waters and see what the locals enjoy.

Wulf

January 9, 2005

Got a Multi with a lot more than 5 waypoints, only possible at night and it takes at least 6 hours to find it - normally 8. Do whatever you like.

Your concept sounds perfect except that I'd leave all the items in the final as well.

4.1k · January 9, 2005

Dare to be different Like this cache.

Read the first finders logs to get a feel for the effort required and the experience of a tougher multi.

It's not the number of finders, but did they enjoy the hunt and the places it took them to.

Have fun with it.

John

1.8k · January 9, 2005

I would recommend breaking it up. Personally, I'd do seven totally separate caches, maybe on a theme. At least, I'd cut it in half. The reason - because harder and longer caches get fewer and fewer visits, particularlly if your location is not full of cachers. Some people won't walk far, etc. You won't have any more to maintain, really, and cachers get 7 finds instead of one. Just my opinion.

Edited January 9, 2005 by Robespierre

January 9, 2005

There is a series of caches in a nearby city called Snow White and the seven Dwarfs. Each Dwarf is a regular cache each one has a numer. You have to find all seven dwarfs and prince charming which gives you the code for putting all the numbers together for finding Sno White. That way you can do it in small peices or all in one day. The folks who like finds get a find for each stage.

Mike

38.2k · January 9, 2005

I would recommend breaking it up. Personally, I'd do seven totally separate caches, maybe on a theme.

From the guidelines:

If you want to create a series of caches, the site approvers may strongly encourage you to create a multi-cache.

Don't let them discourage you. A multi cache is great fun and if there are none in your area, there should be. Add a little variety!

Edited January 9, 2005 by briansnat

1.5k · January 9, 2005

Here is an example of how one of my mystery multis works, using multiple traditional caches. When the cachers are done finding this cache, they have found a total of seven caches. Most enjoy there experience, and they get more than one smiley for their efforts.

Fox Den Mystery Multi

Thanks, Kit Fox! Your cache reference helped confirm I'm on the right track for a "multi-mystery" bonus cache I'm putting together for cachers who finish a tour of the Fairbanks, AK, bike paths. Since I don't have the bonus cache placed yet, I've been putting code words in each of what will eventually be six stand-alone caches (four placed to date, three found so far) that will be used to determine the coordinates of the bonus cache similar to how you did "Fox Den Mystery Multi." Each cache page has a statement telling the cacher to be sure to record the code word for an upcoming bonus cache. I'll change the wording once the bonus cache is placed.

Since bike season is relatively short up here, I've been placing the caches on the trail system so they can be accessed on nordic skis and on foot as well as placed so they won't be obliterated by heavy snowfall.

Edited January 9, 2005 by Ladybug Kids

2.6k · January 9, 2005

I just got back from a nine stage multi. I was so intent on finding one that was okay to do in the snow, I didn't notice the nine stage part until I was reading the logs looking for help on stage one. I also assumed since the snow in my front yard was all melted, the snow in the forest would be low, too. Ha! Up over my boot-tops on the path in places. And I kept losing the path.

I decided right away I'd only do half today. And, sure enough, I was pretty exhausted by stage four. Coords were excellent and the stages were right on the path -- which is the only way I had a hope of finding anything -- but slogging through snow was brutal.

And I had a blast!

This hider is well-known hereabouts for his long, sadistic multis in the woods, so I knew more or less what I was in for. More than once, it has taken me a couple of trips to finish one and (please don't tell jamis) I still love his hides. So, as long as you let people know what they're up against, let 'er rip. People who do caches of a type they hate have no one but themselves to blame.

But don't write on stuff in the woods

1.5k · January 9, 2005

From the guidelines:

If you want to create a series of caches, the site approvers may strongly encourage you to create a multi-cache.

Don't let them discourage you. A multi cache is great fun and if there are none in your area, there should be. Add a little variety!

Briansnat is correct. I ran the concept by my local approver before proceeding and he concurred with the approach due to the total distance required (about 20 miles when done) to complete the series and the fact that I was mixing things up on the stand alone caches: puzzle, magnetic micro, small, ammo can, and who knows what's next, five gallon bucket???

January 9, 2005

don't let the cache goblins scare you. spit in their eyes and make that 100 stage multi you always dreamed of.

January 10, 2005

Just one word of caution - if you are expecting a rush of cachers to hunt your new hide you may be disappointed. It sounds great, and I don't want to discourage you (I'd hunt it for sure). But from your description of the other caches in the area you might consider putting out a simpler multi first, to introduce the local caching community to the concept, with the idea of building up to your proposed masterpiece.

One of my most memorable cache hunts was 11 stages. It took me over four hours on a cold windy day to locate all the parts, and I came within minutes of quitting a couple of times. Yet to this day it is one of my favorite caches. So by all means, go ahead and hide it. But don't get your hopes up for a lot of finds.

January 10, 2005

2. ALL stages would have an actual cache container with trade items, with the logbook being in the final stage.

Why bother to create five to seven cache hides complete with containers and trade items and end up with only one cache?

5. In case of Muggle attack or swiped card, I would also have a spot within 25 feet of each stage where the coords for the next stage were written. Probably on a rock like the one I found. The cache page on the site would tell of this so people would know what to look for if they couldn't find a stage.

Don't bother with this either. Waypoints for multis should be pretty easy to make muggle proof, much easier than boxes in the bushes.

4.1k · January 10, 2005

2. ALL stages would have an actual cache container with trade items, with the logbook being in the final stage.

Why bother to create five to seven cache hides complete with containers and trade items and end up with only one cache?

5. In case of Muggle attack or swiped card, I would also have a spot within 25 feet of each stage where the coords for the next stage were written. Probably on a rock like the one I found. The cache page on the site would tell of this so people would know what to look for if they couldn't find a stage.

Don't bother with this either. Waypoints for multis should be pretty easy to make muggle proof, much easier than boxes in the bushes.

We put a container (with logbook) at each position of our tough multi just because it takes so long to complete. It covers 250 miles at the very least and has a total of 8 waypoints. It takes a minimum of 2 days of hard caching to complete. We also gave the finders the option to log each leg as a find if they so choose.

The real question is "Why not put a container at each waypoint?" The term Multi can mean multiple cache container as well as multiple waypoints.

We hid our multi in a manner that we enjoyed and so have all those who have found it.

It's about both the hider and seeker having fun.

John

January 10, 2005

Here's a multi to top all and a good one to read to get some ideas monster Here's another that uses stakes for the points Moore and I made one that uses small containers Midura . Read some of these to get some ideas plus go do a few before setting one up .

38.2k · January 10, 2005

The real question is "Why not put a container at each waypoint?" The term Multi can mean multiple cache container as well as multiple waypoints.

Other than the fact it may confuse some people who might think they found the final cache, no reason not to do it of you really want to. But why deal with the added expense of buying quality containers for each stage and the maintenance headache of having numerous fully stocked stages for one multi cache?

We also gave the finders the option to log each leg as a find if they so choose.

Why not just make them separate caches with their own page then?

Edited January 10, 2005 by briansnat

January 10, 2005

Ok. I've gotten some good advice here and have learned a few things. I still have a few questions and so I'm going to clear a few things up and then ask my questions.

A. Thanks to the many that suggested more than one multi. I like the idea of making 2 or even 3 multis out of this.... Then I can build my 5-7 somewhere else at a later time, because I will eventually build one.

B. As someone pointed out, writing on rocks gives beginners the wrong idea. Of course it does, that's how I got the idea. I'll be asking a followup on this in a bit.

C. I'm more interested in Quality of time spent than quantity of finders seeking it. We have an overabundance of simple caches in my area, I should know, 3 of them are mine. If people read the warnings and decide not to seek it, then so be it. The ones that do will have more fun.

D. I want a container at every waypoint because I think it would be cool and I can afford it. It may be different, but that's what I'm striving for! Maintenance will not be that big a deal, and I will clearly label each stage... : Stage 1 !!! Coords for Stage 2 are ________. Plus the page will clearly state how many stages there are.

Now on to my remaining questions.

1. Some people ask why a container at each waypoint? Well, If I'm not supposed to carve on trees or write on rocks, (and I can see why....) then will someone please explain to me how do you give the finders the coords for the next stage? I hear a lot of people telling me I don't need it, but nobody's explaining HOW.

2. Although I'm not too worried about Muggles where I'm placing this, the fact remains it could happen. So if it does, then is the rest of the cache out of the question for the person that discovers that it's gone? How, other than writing on rocks, do people finish a multi on a muggled cache?

Please remember, I'm on here asking for advice because I don't kinow things. If I'm talking about doing something different than the norm, it's because I haven't had much experience with this kind of cache and am looking for answers. Remember, I have only done one of these, and so you might have to explain your answers a bit, not just point out that you think I'm doing something the wrong way.

If I was just going to do it my way no matter what anyone thought, I wouldn't have posted it here in the first place!

Thanks for all the help so far and for any more answers I might recieve.

38.2k · January 10, 2005

1. Some people ask why a container at each waypoint? Well, If I'm not supposed to carve on trees or write on rocks, (and I can see why....) then will someone please explain to me how do you give the finders the coords for the next stage? I hear a lot of people telling me I don't need it, but nobody's explaining HOW.

You seem to have misunderstood a bit. MOST multi caches have containers at each stage. But usually they are smaller, cheaper containers. Possibly Gladware or something similar, becuase usually the only thing in them are the cordinates for the next stage. I've never seen (though there are some as 2Oldfarts mentioned) a multi that has trade items at each stage. Once you add trade items, you will need a larger, higher quality container.

Other options that I've seen for interim stages of a multi are are stamped, metal tags wired to an object, laminated paper coordinates stapled to a fence post and thin magnetic strips with the coordinates written on them.

2. Although I'm not too worried about Muggles where I'm placing this, the fact remains it could happen. So if it does, then is the rest of the cache out of the question for the person that discovers that it's gone? How, other than writing on rocks, do people finish a multi on a muggled cache?

They don't. That's what DNF's are for.

You can reduce the chances of muggling by using smaller containers for your interim stages, hiding them well and off the beaten path and not placing trade items inside. A small Gladware container holding a slip of paper with coordinates is less likely to walk off than an ammo box filled with toys.

January 10, 2005

Other small containers that I have seen used for stages of multi caches are Altoids tins (couple different sizes), film canisters, and snuff containers. There is a multi in a garden on the Penn State Univ. campus that uses snuff containers. The hides are very cleverly done, and the containers blend in with the scenery.

2.6k · January 10, 2005

1. Some people ask why a container at each waypoint? Well, If I'm not supposed to carve on trees or write on rocks, (and I can see why....) then will someone please explain to me how do you give the finders the coords for the next stage?

Hm. Small soda bottles or babyfood jars with a slip of paper inside that you can read without opening. Wooden tags wired to trees (careful about this one! Doing this without hurting the tree can be tricky. However, it has the advantage of looking like something official a park ranger might do, for some mysterious park ranger reason). Magnetic tags attached to signs.

The multis I've run across in the UK were semi-puzzles. They lead you around to various information signs in public parks, for example, as in "the ship wrecked in this spot in 169X and was 1Y0 feet long," where X and Y become the last two digits of the next coordinates. There's one we haven't done yet that led you all around historic spots in Canterbury this way -- an excellent way to set up a multi in an urban area.

Except I kept getting the math wrong :huh:

January 10, 2005

I think multicaches are exciting! Makes it more like a treasure hunt instead of "here it is, stop by some time!"

I'd like to do a statewide or nationwide one (although citywide would be more realistic) with not just coordinates at each waypoint, but clues that you'll need later. Then maybe solve a riddle or puzzle to get to the cache...

I don't have very much exprience placing caches, but I think going on an adventure and being entertained is more of a concern than how many people will attempt it. I don't expect the log to be full, and I don't judge the success of the cache by the number of people logged in but by the responses of the people who do

I dunno :rolleyes: just my thoughts on the matter

Edited January 10, 2005 by Burncycle

January 11, 2005

Here's a multi in KS about 50 miles from one of your caches you might want to try Wellington Lake . I've done a multi near me that had a two tree tags and a pole tag . Another used only 35mm film containers , still another used just stakes . Be creative use a combo of different types depending on the area you are planning on using . Scout the area out see what would,could,should work in that area keeping in mind that it has to blend in so people who aren't looking won't find it and those that are will . If you need any suggestions/help drop me an email and I'll see what I can do to help . I love a good multi because of the challenge of finding each piece . Good luck !!!!

Edited January 11, 2005 by c88m

January 11, 2005

You seem to have misunderstood a bit. MOST multi caches have containers at each stage. But usually they are smaller, cheaper containers. Possibly Gladware or something similar, becuase usually the only thing in them are the cordinates for the next stage......

Other options that I've seen for interim stages of a multi are are stamped, metal tags wired to an object, laminated paper coordinates stapled to a fence post and thin magnetic strips with the coordinates written on them.

They don't. That's what DNF's are for.

You were right, I wasn't getting it... now I am...

Now that I'm getting that, I might toss in a few "coords only" stages, but I still like the idea of having more than one cache stage. Especially if I do split the multi into two smaller multis like has been suggested.

And I guess I understand that if it gets muggled there will be a DNF, I just keep trying to think of a way around it.

Thanks briansnat!

January 11, 2005

don't let the cache goblins scare you. spit in their eyes and make that 100 stage multi you always dreamed of.

And you are going to come hunt it when I do, right?

100 stages..... Hmmmmmm. lol.

January 11, 2005

Just one word of caution - if you are expecting a rush of cachers to hunt your new hide you may be disappointed.......

...from your description of the other caches in the area you might consider putting out a simpler multi first, to introduce the local caching community to the concept, with the idea of building up to your proposed masterpiece........

Actually, when looking at the local caches I spent some time looking at the stats of some of the people, both hiders and finders. Quite a few of the folks around here seem to have made several out of town trips, and have Multi's to their credit there.

But you raise a serious point and I am now considering making a 2 stage a mile or two away to be the warmup to it.

As far as who hunts it, I don't care if it only gets hunted two or three times a year, as long as the people who DO hunt it have fun.

January 11, 2005

I don't have very much exprience placing caches, but I think going on an adventure and being entertained is more of a concern than how many people will attempt it. I don't expect the log to be full, and I don't judge the success of the cache by the number of people logged in but by the responses of the people who do

My thoughts exactly. Thank you for wording it so well.

January 11, 2005

Here's a multi in KS about 50 miles from one of your caches you might want to try Wellington Lake .

If you need any suggestions/help drop me an email and I'll see what I can do to help.

Hey thanks, that's one of Droid61's caches, I've hunted several of his already.

I was hoping to get up there this last weekend and search it, but we had an ice storm roll through here and it was even worse where that cache is. So unfortunately it may be awhile longer before I can hunt it.

Thanks for the offer of help, I'll keep it in mind and might take you up on it.

January 11, 2005

1. I want to create a 5-7 stage multi that leads you about 3.0 miles down an equestrian trail near my city.

3. Each stage would be at least .2 miles from the nearest other stage, and there are no other caches withing 2.5 miles of any stage.

Hello

One way to increase the chance that a stage is not muggled is to use something that already exists at one of your stages and ask questions about what the cacher sees at the given site. You originally said you have 7 places you really like along the trail. Are these all points of interest, i.e. rock out crop, old homestead, nice view, unusual tree? Are there any signs near by you could use to gather information from?

If there are signs, tombstones, graffiti, etc that have numbers on them you can use the numbers found and add to a coordinate provided on the cache page.

i.e. A sign that states the land was donated in 1963 you can have them add 1963 to the last four numbers of N33 45.123 and W088 63.035 to find the coordinates for the next stage- N33 47.086 W088 64.998.

You can also give options of coordinates based on what is fond at the sight.

i.e. What is stuck in the large maple tree?

If it is a saw blade go to: N33 47.086 W088 64.998

If it is a cannon ball go to: N33 47.372 W088 65.123

You can have the cacher use a compass bearing to get the next coordinates.

i.e. While looking over the valley what direction is the river? or

While standing at the well what direction is the chimney?

If it is North go to: N33 47.086 W088 64.998

If it is West go to: N33 47.372 W088 65.123

If it is East go to: N33 47.175 W088 64.731

i.e. Take a compass bearing from the old large maple tree to the cave and add that number to the last tree numbers of both N33 45.123 and W088 63.035 to find the coordinates to the next stage.

If there is a feature in the area, i.e. 3 large boulders, 7 tree stumps, old trucks..etc, you can have them add the number of chosen item to any number in a given coordinate.

I have also found caches that use words at a location and assign a number value to each letter and give coordinates such as NORTH (SS MI.JOH) WEST 099 (IT.JOE) at the site they find the name JOE SMITH and are instructed to start numbering (1-8) from left to right.

Therefore, J=1, O=2, E=3, S=4, M=5, I=6, T=7, H=8

NORTH (SS MI.JOH) WEST 099 (IT.JOE) = N44 56.128 W099 67.123

I hope this helps with the stages.

At each stage of the cache are there places to tie horse so they are not tied to trees? This is important for the horseback cachers so that the horses do not chew on or otherwise damage trees.

Something else to keep in mind, since the cache is on a horse trail people will be searching from horseback. You mentioned that some of the stages may be as close as .20 mile. Are these sites interesting enough or will the hunt for the cache be interesting enough to have people, riding such a short distance, dismount, tie a horse, and hunt for the cache?

GEO.JOE

38.2k · January 11, 2005

You can also give options of coordinates based on what is fond at the sight.
i.e. What is stuck in the large maple tree?

If it is a saw blade go to: N33 47.086 W088 64.998

If it is a cannon ball go to: N33 47.372 W088 65.123

This is an excellent and very simple way to handle a middle stage in a muli. I've used it a couple of times

January 11, 2005

If you enjoy woodworking you can create some fairly "evil" intermediate stages. I've seen matchstick holders and film cans embedded inside hollowed out logs. If this hollowed out log happens to be thrown onto a jumble of other logs, it becomes quite difficult to locate the cache. I've seen rocks that had an internal section removed to make room for a film canister. Disguising a container to look like its surroundings can add to the fun of the hunt - imagine you've got no concrete idea of what you are seeking, other than the fact that it has to be RIGHT HERE! (keep the clues vague or leave no additional hints at all). You search and search and suddenly it just pops right out at you - it was right in front of your nose all along. Those are some of the best moments in geocaching, far better than the "walked right up the pile of sticks next to the downed tree" variety. Don't get me wrong, I've put out plenty of simple traditional caches, some of which have been called "lame" in the logs. But the caches I enjoy most have been those with a lot of thought and preparation behind them.

In addition to the types of intermediate hides, you could use different methods for determining the position of the next waypoint. I've seen caches where a compass heading and distance is given, such as "sight 120 degrees through the crotch of the old tree. The next stage is 200 feet beyond the tree."

About These Multicaches......

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