Bomb Squads & Cahes. Time To Do Something.

[+wildearth2001]

Two words:  Clear Containers.

Two words: Rail Bombs

 

Ok, to save people the trouble of reading, the bombs were in clear plastic containers.

 

Also, at last count, I think the number of geocaches blown up as possible bombs was pretty evenly split between ammo cans and rubbermaid. Add a cell phone and a wooden box to the mix, and you can be pretty sure they blow up anything they arent sure of. In the real world, bombs dont always look like sticks of dynamite taped together and wired to a clock. They might be a briefcase, a back pack, a pupperware container, or even a GameBoy.

Come on let's be fair here. If a cache or bomb were in a clear plastic container, how likily would it be for the bombs squad to blow it up if it were a cache filled with toys? They can't be that stupid can they?

 

As for bomb looking taped to a alarm clock... pre 9-11 (but post Lockerby (sp), Scottland)... 60 Minutes did a story on airport security. It was pitiful. The test for those guys sitting behind the X-ray machine was to look for bomb that looked exactly like that - big clock taped to a bundle of sticks of dynamite. What made even more pathetic, tests were announced to X-ray screeners days before they were to be tested. Believe it or not some screeners still failed this test!

yes they might be that stupid, and I have no problem believing the stories about the old airport security people

 

it is time to do something, but I have no Idea what

 

BTW: NORM

[Jeremy]

I like acronyms:

 

I call this one ALL RIGHT

 

Ask permission before placing a cache.

Label your container with your contact information: email and/or phone number

Leave an information sheet in your cache container so when someone opens it they know what it is.

 

Read the guidelines to placing a cache and take a look at the more obvious issues with hiding caches. They wouldn't be listed unless there was a previous incident that created the guideline.

Investigate the area around the cache to locate any potential hazards. Is this a pass-through trail near a sensitive area? Will people cut corners through an area that may cause security problems?

Get permission before placing the cache. If permission is given there is a local representative that is aware of the container.

Have a friend visit the cache and provide feedback. If you're too close to hiding the cache you may have missed something.

Technology does not solve all social problems. Keep in mind the best way to approach a cache hide is through education.

 

Point "A" will solve 99% of the problems associated with hiding any cache.

 

Also, due to a quick response from Hydee last week, one bomb squad was not contacted: The owner was able to quickly remove one cache from a location due to the centralized nature of the cache information.

[+Mopar]

Come on let's be fair here.  If a cache or bomb were in a clear plastic container, how likily would it be for the bombs squad to blow it up if it were a cache filled with toys?  They can't be that stupid can they?   

I dunno, can they?

 

Maybe?

Edited March 30, 2004 by Mopar

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

yes they might be that stupid, and I have no problem believing the stories about the old airport security people

 

it is time to do something, but I have no Idea what

 

BTW: NORM

 

 

 

After some long and difficult and arduous thinking, We believe we have found the best solution to this problem of misidentified caches.

 

When a cache is call in to 911 the people who respond first are the police and then bomb squad. This presents us with the perfect solution to who should hide our caches for us!

 

We should prepare our caches as usual then have someone from the Police Dept. or the Bomb Squad do the actual placing. We could have found the best place for the cache and gotten the coordinates already, fill the container with the swag, so it is all set for final placement. The PD or Bomb Squad would then have someone do the actual placement.

 

Then if a bomb scare or suspicious package is called in the responders will already know what it is if it was one of them that had placed it.

 

The only drawback is if a member of the force retires then the caches placed by this member would have to be archived. The other members may not know which caches he placed, so it would be best to archive them.

 

What's the motto of most PD's? To protect and serve (as in place caches?)

 

John & Shirley

 

tongue in cheek!!

[+sTeamTraen]

it is time to do something, but I have no Idea what

Hey ! Did you copy that from the big mission statement frame hanging behind Tom Ridge's desk ?

[+The MacMedic]

We should build a database of all the geocaches and make the data available on the internet.  That way when the bombsquad gets a call, they can look up the coordinates and see if a cache is there.  Then their only excuse will be stupidity.

Whether I am wearing Nomex or Kevlar, I am going to handle suspicious packages that I am dispatched for as a hazard to myself and to my crew.

 

I would wager every emergency responder in the country is going to handle dispatches for suspicious packages in the same way.

 

Uploading coordinates and expecting that an emergency crew has either the time or the resources to cross reference that the suspicious device is either a geocache, a letterbox, environmental monitoring station, or high school science project sounds plausible... unless you have ever worked public safety.

 

To suggest that "their only excuse will be stupidity" is an insult to every one of us in public safety.

Standard procedure for my department is when a suspicious package is found that it be left alone and the police be called in to handle.

 

As for my own stupidity? Criminal needs to understand that my goal when I go to work is to go home again in the morning and that means my safety is Job #1. If something looks suspicious it is until proven otherwise.

 

The only way to minimize the possibility of a cache being viewed as a suspicious package is to think twice (at least) about what is placed and where it is placed. Let's face it, placing a cache or letterbox near the county courthouse is just begging for trouble while a micro in the same location may be less likely to be seen as a threat.

 

A little common sense goes a long way and means that we can enjoy our sport without alarming the rest of the population.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[+DamOTclese]

What's the point? There's no solution in a climate of deliberate fear in the current fascist regime. It was probably stupid to attach a trip wire to the box, true, but the core problem here is the unwarranted climate of fear.

 

Imagine how much worse it could have been if a dark-skinned person was observed logging the cache. The guy would have been arrested and detained as an "enemy combatant" in Cuba.

 

(Well, to be fair I doubt it would go that far but the deliberate fear and bigotry against people with dark skin in the US would have resulted in such a person logging the cache getting ordered face down at gun point.)

[+Criminal]

Whew, let’s see if I can dumb this down enough for ya, K?

 

We should build a database of all the geocaches and make the data available on the internet.

 

We have that, it’s called www.geocaching.com. Get it? Irony, see? Can you grasp that?

 

That way when the bombsquad gets a call, they can look up the coordinates and see if a cache is there.

 

Duh, of course they’re not going to do that. Thanks for the lesson we didn’t need. It would have been more helpful to point out that “bombsquad” should be two words.

 

Then their only excuse will be stupidity.

 

Again, tongue in cheek humor. If they find something and they cannot positively determine what it is, they will follow the standard operating procedure.

 

The point of the whole post is to point out that there is nothing that you, as a hider, can do to ensure positive identification. So you must accept that these things will happen from time to time.

 

If your desire is to impress everyone with the manly way you risk life and limb to make a living, it would be far more stirring if you did it without the sanctimonious chest beating. Many have and many do offer up themselves to risk in the cause of something greater. Not all of us will (or are even allowed to) shout it from the rooftops.

Edited March 30, 2004 by Criminal

[Jeremy]

It was probably stupid to attach a trip wire to the box, true, but the core problem here is the unwarranted climate of fear.

trip + wire = tripwire

 

I don't know what kind of climate you live in, but a word like tripwire in any "climate" would scare the bejeesus out of me.

[+HartClimbs]

I agree.

 

I'd thought of painting "NOT A BOMB" on my ammo boxes when I first started hiding caches, then realized when someone saw the ammo box partially obstructed by a tree stump or leaves - guaranteed the "NOT" part would be covered up. I ended up spraypainting "GEOCACHE" on the sides, figuring if it was partially obscured, at least it wouldn't scare anyone!

 

I think it's helpful to assume your cache will be found by someone not familiar with the game - and try to make it look as innocuous as possible (either by clearly identifying the container or by choosing placements wisely).

[4x4van]

I know I'm probably opening up a hornet's nest here and may be flamed, but "DamOTclese's" post rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry, but here goes:

There's no solution in a climate of deliberate fear in the current fascist regime.  It was probably stupid to attach a trip wire to the box, true, but the core problem here is the unwarranted climate of fear.

Unwarranted? Ever hear of 9-11-01? Or were you not watching the news that day?

](...the deliberate fear and bigotry against people with dark skin in the US would have resulted in such a person logging the cache getting ordered face down at gun point.)

Suddenly this has become a racial issue? I take exception to that broad-stroke view. I happen to be white, married to a "dark-skinned" woman, which makes my 3 kids "medium-skinned", if you will. I am not a racist, nor are the vast majority of my friends, family, or co-workers. Are there bigots in America? Of course, as well as every other country in the world. Being white, or "American", isn't a pre-requisite for being a bigot. Some of the worst offenders of racism and bigotry are, in fact, "dark-skinned", as you refer to them. I have learned that in order to best see the face of racism, sometimes one has only to look into the face of those who yell the loudest about it.

 

Now what was this topic "supposed" to be about, again?

Edited March 31, 2004 by 4x4van

[+briansnat]

I don't know what kind of climate you live in, but a word like tripwire in any "climate" would scare the bejeesus out of me.

 

I'm not sure, but the way he describes the country he lives in, I believe it's North Korea. Doesn't sound like the place I live.

Edited March 31, 2004 by briansnat

[+Renegade Knight]

...Now what was this topic "supposed" to be about. again?...

Posting ideas on how to deal with the issue that every now and then a cahe will get blown up, reported, or arrouse suspicion. Drugs, Bombs, or otherwise.

[4x4van]

Oh yeah, now I remember!

Edited March 31, 2004 by 4x4van

[+DamOTclese]

It was probably stupid to attach a trip wire to the box, true, but the core problem here is the unwarranted climate of fear.

trip + wire = tripwire

 

I don't know what kind of climate you live in, but a word like tripwire in any "climate" would scare the bejeesus out of me.

Okay, granted. "Trip wire" would instill reasonable fear in any climate. I'll accept that.

 

It lead me to wonder if there are others out there.

[+Bull Moose]

What's the point?  There's no solution in a climate of deliberate fear in the current fascist regime.

I don't even want to reply to this, other than I think you should read a history text (non-revisionist) and then apologize to anyone who read this that fought in WWII against actual fascists for mocking their sacrifice. (I know of at least one who comes through here on occasion).

 

EDIT:SPELLNG

Edited March 31, 2004 by Bull Moose

[+sTeamTraen]

DamOTclese's post was a bit over the top; but his point about the unwarranted climate of fear seems valid to me.

 

A geocache almost certainly isn't a bomb. Sure, it *could be* one. But in the same way, the guy running your kids' day care *could be* a drug dealer, and you *could be* killed in a car crash tomorrow (on the way to a cache, for instance). In fact that's by far the most likely of all these hypotheticals, but it doesn't seem to stop anyone (including me ) from getting in a car.

 

A good starting point, and not written from the point of view of a whining liberal hippie tree-hugger either, is "Beyond Fear" by Bruce Schneier (see Amazon).

[+Brian - Team A.I.]

The biggest thing is identification on the container that could eliminate the problem, or make it less of one. A label with at least a name/e-mail address or a phone number (better) on the outside would give anyonein LE a point-of-contact and maybe avert the wasting of a significant amount of resources of an insignificant object.

 

Oddly enough, last week a pipe bomb was detonated in a concrete garbage can about 100' from a cache not too far from where I live. Blew the crap out the thing, and it was a solid 2-3" thick.

[+sTeamTraen]

maybe avert the wasting of a significant amount of resources of an insignificant object.

If I were going to plant a bomb, I would place it in a regular household trash can. Even if it didn't kill anyone, it would have a huge knock-on effect. Can you imagine if everybody called the bomb squad for every trash can they suspected (starting with, let's say, the neighbors of every Middle-Eastern looking person in the United States ?)

 

Plus, you can get a decent amount of explosive in a trash can. I have trouble fitting a new pencil and a notebook with pages enough to write in, in a tupperware container (at least, the size my wife will let me have for caches ). Somehow I don't imagine Osama getting excited about blowing fingers off individual infidels.

[4x4van]

A geocache almost certainly isn't a bomb.  Sure, it *could be* one.  But in the same way, the guy running your kids' day care *could be* a drug dealer, and you *could be* killed in a car crash tomorrow (on the way to a cache, for instance).  In fact that's by far the most likely of all these hypotheticals, but it doesn't seem to stop anyone (including me ) from getting in a car.

To you, a geocacher, a geocache almost certainly isn't a bomb. To someone not at all familiar with our "game", it's probably a different story. A como-ed metal military container, hidden, visited by someone using a small hand-held electronic device?

 

Sure, I get in a car every day, but I also buckle my seat belt and drive defensively. Sure, the guy running my kid's daycare "could be" a drug dealer. But I also pay very close attention to the people who come in contact with my children and don't simply assume that everything is fine.

 

By your argument, should we just ignore any and all dangers and go about each day with no suspicion or skepticism? Sounds like a good way to get hurt, or killed, to me. I'm not paranoid, but I do care about my family and enjoy life enough to maintain awareness of my surroundings. My mother, RIP, felt very strongly that when it's your time, it's your time, regardless of where you are or what you're doing. But you don't go looking for "your time".

 

I, personally, don't see an "unwarranted climate of fear" in this country, only intelligent vigilance, based in most part on historical facts. Sometimes maybe a bit too extreme, sometimes not, but never unwarranted. The harsh reality is that there are many people whose sole intent is to kill Americans, and to ignore that fact is to put our heads in the sand and hope they go away. Unfortunately, that doesn't work.

Edited April 2, 2004 by 4x4van

[+sTeamTraen]

I, personally, don't see an "unwarranted climate of fear" in this country, only intelligent vigilance, based in most part on historical facts. Sometimes maybe a bit too extreme, sometimes not, but never unwarranted.

I certainly don't advocate leaving large caches in city locations (apart from anything else, the skyscrapers get in the way of a good signal, people will vandalise them, and it's more fun to get out to the country !).

 

But AFAIK there is no historical record of anybody leaving one-quart containers in parks and forests to kill the odd passing civilian. It would pass unnoticed, and if terrorists are after one thing, it's publicity. Unfortunately, these days, that seems to mean killing a minimum of several dozen people, but at least from our point of view, you can't do that with a rural or parkland cache.

 

I don't see anything intrinsically suspicious of people walking round with electronic gadgets either. Most everyone I've checked with says that when using my GPS I look like I'm sending a text message on my mobile phone. (Of course, when I'm playing Geko Smak on my 201, they think I look like I've escaped from the asylum.)

 

My point is that if you called in everything which looks suspicious, we'd never finish. I suspect the bomb squad people know that too. They have a tough job; having to attend hundreds or thousands of false alarms, or plain hoaxes, for the odd pipe bomb, probably rigged by kids, all the time having to behave in an incredibly "structured" way (eg, they can't burst out laughing when they get to the scene of what's clearly a cache). They must have good parties though

[+Mopar]

But AFAIK there is no historical record of anybody leaving one-quart containers in parks and forests to kill the odd passing civilian. It would pass unnoticed, and if terrorists are after one thing, it's publicity. Unfortunately, these days, that seems to mean killing a minimum of several dozen people, but at least from our point of view, you can't do that with a rural or parkland cache.

W R O N G !

[Bobthearch]

Why not sacrafice a few thousand caches and report them as "suspicious"? The 'bomb squad' will be so tired of responding to Rubbermaid tubs and ammo boxes that they'll leave the rest alone.

 

Would also solve the problem of cache congestion in some areas.

 

-Bob

[Major Catastrophe]

I think for every third cache we hide, we should actually plant a bomb....then they wouldn't gripe about wasting their time "disrupting" boxes of McToys......

That should also help reduce the fervor of the FTF competition...

[+Wadcutter]

But AFAIK there is no historical record of anybody leaving one-quart containers in parks and forests to kill the odd passing civilian.  It would pass unnoticed, and if terrorists are after one thing, it's publicity.  Unfortunately, these days, that seems to mean killing a minimum of several dozen people, but at least from our point of view, you can't do that with a rural or parkland cache.

W R O N G !

Mopar is correct.

I've been in law enforcement for over 30 years and was on SWAT for 10 of those years. It was not at all unusual to find bombs and booby traps in rural and forest areas. The pot growers routinely booby trapped their fields. They'd place trip wires, pressure switch bombs, and other items not good for life and limb to protect their fields. These were long before the current terrorist warnings and are still a major problem today.

When someone says an item doesn't look like a bomb I ask "what's a bomb look like?" Not talking military type weapons. Improvised explosive devices. A bomb could look like anything you normally pickup and use throughout your normal day. I've seen improvised bombs that look like ball point pens. They wouldn't kill you, unless you held it in your mouth, but it would remove fingers. Anyone can do an internet search and find thousands of instructions how to make bombs with stuff everyone has in their home and use everyday.

Remember this guy? http://www.sj-r.com/secure/sections/news/stories/21551.asp There are thousands of other nut cases out there who could easily do the same kind of thing.

[+sTeamTraen]

Mopar, Wadcutter: I take it back. Apparently there are a lot more crazy people in America than I thought.

 

Let me qualify my previous comments with "international terrorists", as in "Al Qaeda is probably not interested in hiding small bombs to blow off fingers, etc". I still believe that.

 

Here in Europe, we have international terrorism and the odd regional separatist group (IRA, ETA), but not many individual nut jobs with access to the necessary ordnance. (However, bomb squad engineers in Northern France still blow up 85 tonnes of WW1 shells each year, almost 100 years on !)

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Come on let's be fair here. If a cache or bomb were in a clear plastic container, how likily would it be for the bombs squad to blow it up if it were a cache filled with toys? They can't be that stupid can they? ...

The one in Las Vegas was in a clear container. That was in 2002.

 

You have seen the posts that uniformly say that once they are called they err on the site of caution.

 

It's beginning to sound like the end result of this effort would be more geocacher/bomb squad members and they would still blow it up once it was reported even if they found it yesteday on their day off because they are going to err on the side of safety every time without fail.

[bug and snake]

<chop>but not many individual nut jobs with access to the necessary ordnance.</chop>

Unfortunately the 'ordnance' aspect is the easy part. Having done enough fire safety courses I now know how to hurt you severely with no more than a bag of flour and a candle. And as for the damage I could do with an ordinary light bulb and one other VERY simple item. Then there are table tennis balls. Also, powerful chemical explosives are not hard to put together with readily available ingredients.

 

I also spent some time as a lecturer in a military academy where I got to know the guy who was teaching anti-terrorist techniques. Some of the stuff he showed me was astounding in its simplicity. The thing that was really scary was that all of the devices he used in his lectures was real - I mean had been seized following successful raids on terrorist bases.

[+Criminal]

If you know of an explosive cache, simply contact your friendly local approver to waive the .1 mile rule, and place a cache that sucks right next to it. They should cancel each other out.