Tax Payers Unite for Conservation of natural habitats

1.1k · July 28, 2003

quote:
She doesn't. It's information obtained through research.

When someone makes a comment, especially one you don't agree with, it's typically a good idea to find out where they are coming from.

George

Now back up a bit bucko. Are you trying to now say that we are supposed to research for information she did not supply, but she does not have to research to alleviate a problem she thinks she might have?

Which side of your mouth are you going to talk out of next?

logscaler.

1.3k · July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

That would be reasonable IF THAT PERSON WERE A GEOCACHER!

This person obviously isn't. She's an outsider, and shouldn't be held to the same standards as a geocacher when posting here.

Yes. You haven't done any research. All you've done is go off on how you don't like her posting. Too bad.

George

You really need to reread my posts. You are implying I said or inferred things I did not.

I posted a link that shows at least 7 caches in the Daley Ranch. I have contacted several of the cache owners already and notified them of this thread. Nobody every said or implied that the lady was a geocacher - that's sorta the point. It has been pointed out that she needs to contact the cache owners of the caches in question. I posted a link to those caches.

Your statement that I have done no research is incorrect.

I am awaiting the next insult - I know it's coming.

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Corp Of Discovery:

quote:
My argument is well thought-out and sound. Try me big-boy. I know words like "onus" and "slather" and am not scared by the likes of you!

"Try you" how? Obviously your argument is neither well thought out or sound as the only thing you replied to in my original post was the USE of the word slather. I never said I did not know what it meant but was deriding the use of the word in this context- this is not a barbeque or a shaving forum. I also know many words and their meanings....some of which I am restraining myself from using right now. In what way do you think I was trying to scare you?

Trust me. You're far from scary.

There's nothing particularly wrong with the word "slather" in this context. It means apply heavily. I've heard it used many times in business discussions, and in some regions it is used liberaly.

Buy why must you feel you must attack it, and not the context of what was said? Or what has been going on in the logs?

Could it be that you're having trouble dealing with the real message?

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:
It has been pointed out that she needs to contact the cache owners of the caches in question. I posted a link to those caches.

Your statement that I have done no research is incorrect.

I am awaiting the next insult - I know it's coming.

Yep. You're just weaseling now.

Why do you feel it is *HER* responsibility to contact the cachers? Why should *SHE* known how to follow *YOUR* rules?

It's the *CACHERS* responsibility, not hers. They are the ones who should be making sure they are not in an inappropriate area.

Talk to me when you can tell me why this is *HER* issue, and not the geocachers involved.

If the *GEOCACHERS* had followed the rules in the first place, we probably wouldn't even be here.

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:
Again, there is NO reason for personal attacks.

I stand by my statement that the cache owners in question need to be contacted.

You really need to lighten up.

OK, then deal with the original post, instead of attacking the poster.

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by logscaler:
Now back up a bit bucko. Are you trying to now say that we are supposed to research for information she did not supply, but she does not have to research to alleviate a problem she thinks she might have?

Which side of your mouth are you going to talk out of next?

The problem is not hers to aleviate, bucko.

The problem geocachers are.

She has legitimate complaints and concerns. Let's hear you address them rationally, or are you in vapor-lock like the others?

George

1.1k · July 28, 2003

nincehelser:

After reading some of your adventures on the cache hunts you have been on, I am not sure you should be aloud to play outside by yourself.

At least I know to pack at least one Flashlightwith me.

And would you have been better off on the trails?

Now, I say again, Show me in her orginal posting, where she names any caches she has a problem with.

After all, IF she has a problem with a cache, should she have not at least posted which ones?

logscaler.

2.3k · July 28, 2003

quote:
Buy why must you feel you must attack it, and not the context of what was said? Or what has been going on in the logs?

Obiously you do really need to go back and reread the original posts, and you still have not gone beyond personal attacks. If someone can find this website, make an account, start a new topic and not leave a valid email address or website in return- they could just have contacted the site admin and registered a complaint. This would have been a much easier and more tactful, to say nothing of the right way, to do it. One last thing- you are assuming the cache placers are in the wrong and did not follow the correct procedure for placing a cache, where is your research into that?

Remember, wherever you go- there you are!

July 28, 2003

Ah, logscaler...ran out of ammo so quickly, huh?

George

1.1k · July 28, 2003

I should say not.

I am still waiting for you to point out in her original post where she states she has a problem with caches in her area.

Simple enough even for you to understand, I hope any way.

Or are those words to large for you to wrap your head around.

I could dummy them down for you.

Oh, There is a phone number on the website. Please call her and ask her to join in this please.

logscaler.

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Corp Of Discovery:
Obiously you do really need to go back and reread the original posts, and you still have not gone beyond personal attacks.

You wish.

quote:
If someone can find this website, make an account, start a new topic and not leave a valid email address or website in return- they could just have contacted the site admin and registered a complaint. This would have been a much easier and more tactful, to say nothing of the right way, to do it.

First off, the site is up, however minimal. Other posters have gotten there, too, based on the info they've posted. So I suggest you find out what's wrong with *YOUR* connection.

As for how the person registered their concerns, I feel it is perfectly appropriate.

There is no rule that complaints/concerns must be sent through particular channels, or else be rudely rubuffed or ignored. To require this of outsiders or newcommers is awfully elitist. This is exactly why the image of geocaching is suffering.

quote:
One last thing- you are assuming the cache placers are in the wrong and did not follow the correct procedure for placing a cache, where is you research into that?

Look at the cache logs. People are crossing posted property. One seems like it is on private property. People are dodging rangers...sound like permission was granted to you? I've seen many caches archived for less.

July 28, 2003

Hey logscaler, Corp of discovery, et. al.

I have never met a Mensa member who wasn't an arrogant a******. Who spent most of their time trying to inflate their ego at the expense of other people’s dignity.

Leave the arrogant troll alone and go back to geocaching.

We geocachers (I guess he isn’t one) are just troglodytes hunting for Tupperware. We can’t possibly win an argument with him; it would destroy the natural order of things.

This 'flying saucer' situation is not at all imaginary or seeing too much in some natural phenomena. Something is really flying around. The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious. - Gen. Nathan Twining Chief of Staff, US Air Force, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by logscaler:
I should say not.

I am still waiting for you to point out in her orginal post where she states she has a problem with caches in her area.

Simple enough even for you to understand, I hope any way.

Or are those words to large for you to wrap your head around.

I could dummy them down for you.

Oh, There is a phone number on the website. Please call her and ask her to join in this please.

logscaler.

OOOOOH! What a cogent response!

Is it that hard for you to figure out that she has a problem with the impact of geocaching on her area?

What in her posting did you not understand?

Obviously, you're working at an intellectual level far beyond my capacity...please dumb it down for me and tell me what her message was!

George

1.1k · July 28, 2003

Thanks Sluggo.

A jolt of reality does help. It is hot here and I guess the heat got to me.

He just attacks where he can because he has no real answers.

If he chooses, he can send me an e-mail with the answers to the questions. I doubt if I hear from him in a reasonable manner.

Consider this my last post to this topic.

logscaler.

[This message was edited by logscaler on July 28, 2003 at 09:34 PM.]

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Sluggo:
Hey logscaler, Corp of discovery, et. al.

I have never met a Mensa member who wasn't an arrogant a******. Who spent most of their time trying to inflate their ego at the expense of other people’s dignity.

Ah, yes. Blame it on that. I'm used to it.

quote:
Leave the arrogant troll alone and go back to geocaching.

We geocachers (I guess he isn’t one) are just troglodytes hunting for Tupperware. We can’t possibly win an argument with him; it would destroy the natural order of things.

Actually, if you have the facts and the logic, you just might be able to make a case I could agree with, but I'm sure that would be too much trouble for you.

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by logscaler:
Thanks Sluggo.

A jolt of reality does help. It is hot here and I guess the heat got to me.

He just attacks where he can because he has no real answers.

If he chooses, he can send me an e-mail with the answers to the questions. I doubt if I hear from him in a resonable manner.

Consider this my last post to this topic.

logscaler.

C'mon, logscaler. Post those answers of yours!

Could it be you really don't have them?

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by kmugwort:
Dear Folks,

Your new sport sounds like fun and we would truly appreciate it if you

would

slather on the following cautions for your users:

1) DO NOT STRAY from the formal, marked trails in an area; do not plant

your

"caches" or do anything to encourage off-trail activity.

2) DO NOT hike, walk, bike, horseback ride, etc,... after dark. Most of

the

animals in these habitats are nocturnal. Disturbing their hunting and

foraging with human presence is life threatening for them.

BACKGROUND GENERALITIES:

1. California's Coastal Sage Scrub and chaparral in particular are

endangered habitats: 99% GONE, no matter what the EPA says. It's not a

political issue, it's just a fact.

2. Birds and other critters in these ecosystems often nest on or close to

the ground --- breaking brush cover exposes them to elevated rates of

predation, from both their natural predators in the food web as well as

feral predators from nearby human settlements. Some birds won't even nest within 100 meters of human-made paths.

3. Even a step on the "crust" of the substrate in these habitats can

damage

the lichen, fungi, and micorhyzomes that are critical to the health of

soils

for native plants.

4. Repeated use by those that follow squiggles of newly trampled brush or

broken crust creates paths that result in fragmentation of habitat as

surely

as any new roadway. --- Fragmentation and edge effects are major

contributors to extinction.

5. Ecosystems arise over the course of millenia of climatic change and

genetic adaptation. We have places on Daley Ranch that demonstrate that

even

after decades, the native habitats do not recover their full biodiversity

and complexity, once they have been damaged. This is particularly true for

ecosystems in arid regions such as Southern California.l

PLEASE PLEASE advance the cause. Enjoy your sport and EDUCATE YOUR MEMBERS

to be responsible users in endangered habitats. Understand that we are all

in this together. Conservation and responsible use benefit ALL the

taxpayers

as well as the native plants and animals with which we share the planet.

Thanks,

Sally Thomas,

President, Friends of Daley Ranch

fodr.org

Don't crush the brush!

I suggest you head to the nearest college campus bookstore and purchase a copy of "Ecology". Or better get click on amazon.com

Be nice if you'd cite the proof of all this you preach, and current proof, like nothing published in the journals older than 2001 at the most.

"The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creator."

- Louis Pasteur

[This message was edited by Ce'Nedra on July 28, 2003 at 09:46 PM.]

July 28, 2003

No narration I can compile can say this any better than what Jolly B. Good eloquently described in a similar thread, in which coincidentally, nincehelser also chose to berate anyone who had an opinion contrary to his own. Therefore, I will blatantly and shamelessly pilfer his words:

"People seem to be posting extremes and worst case scenarios when it comes to impacting the environment. C'mon. Let's be real.

People who are attracted to geocaching have a vested interest in protecting the environment. We're not morons who chuck beer cans in the bushes or leave trails of burger king wrappers in teh forest. At least MOST of us don't.

Granted there are SOME delicate areas where cachiing and heavy foot traffic MIGHT impact the environment. Such areas are usually protected. There are laws and regulations governing such things. If not -- I'm sure some dedicated environmentalists are going to bring such situations to our attention and say, "stop it!"

The point most of us are trying to make here is that your typical cache has zero impact. Not that MAN hasn't had an impact on earth. You're mixing a larger issue with geocaching. I don't know of any caches where 3,000 people have beat a path to get to it.

I don't carry exotic seeds in my pocket. I don't dig holes with an entrencing tool to hide caches. Nor do I use a machette to blaze trails. i don't loot historical dig sites and take home souveniers. I don't tear up an area in a hundred foot radius just because I can't find a cache. An I don't take pot shots at rare birds or critters on my way back from a cache.

I don't know anyone else who does these things either. Maybe you can point out a dozen examples where someone has but my point is such idiots are the exception and not the norm. Every sport has people who don't follow the rules. It's up to the rest of us to police them and keep them in line.

I'm sorry -- 4 to 5 people visiting an cache each month isn't exactly a high traffic situation. Some of my caches are lucky to get 1 visitor a month.

Once the established cachers in an area hit a cache traffic tends to slow down to a trickle and nature quickly repairs the damage.

Having said all that if you can point out a cache that is causing an adverse impact on the environment than show it to me. I'll be the first to scream "Archvie it!!" if you're right.

Otherwise I just don't see a problem here"

Nincehelser, you are clearly of prodigious intellect. However, your behavior at times can be overwhelmingly boorish and exceedingly arrogant. If you would simply debate the issue(s) at hand in a civilized manner, meaningful dialogue might could be accomplished. As it is, this thread has completely lost it's intended context.

Go ahead. Belittle me. I know it's coming. I expect it and eagerly anticipate its' arrival. However, it will be to your utmost disappointment to know that I will not reply. I don't play that game.

If you wish to continue with sensible, meaningful, respectfulconversation, so be it. However, I believe I can reasonably assure myself that this may very well be beyond your capabilities.

Visit the Mississippi Geocaching Forum at

http://pub98.ezboard.com/bgeocachingms

2.3k · July 28, 2003

YEAH!!! What Sluggo, Logscaler and Pater47 said.

Remember, wherever you go- there you are!

4.1k · July 28, 2003

After careful reading of the original post I find she failed to mention that cachers are responsible for global warming as well...

Just remember that 99% of all creatures that ever lived are now extinct and people were not even here to cause it...

Smile, make others wonder what you're up to!!!

38.2k · July 28, 2003

quote:
OK. Let's get this clear. I calling you a moron because you don't understand simple words or the basic context of the original post.

quote:
Some people are so wrapped up in there little mindset they won't budge.

Questionable grammar.

quote:
The problem is not hers to aleviate, bucko.

quote:
and in some regions it is used liberaly

Poor spelling skills.

Yet he calls those who disagree with him morons.

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

July 28, 2003

quote:
Nincehelser, you are clearly of prodigious intellect. However, your behavior at times can be overwhelmingly boorish and exceedingly arrogant.

Point taken, but I get so tired of stating the obvious sometimes. Some people are so wrapped up in there little mindset they won't budge.

In this case it was because so many jumped on the original poster. This is a big problem with geocaching's image, but few will even bother to recognize that as a possibility.

quote:
If you would simply debate the issue(s) at hand in a civilized manner, meaningful dialogue might could be accomplished. As it is, this thread has completely lost it's intended context.

Exactly. Because some people have "vapor-locked", they won't respond to the original post on its merits, but rather attack the original poster...exactly the same thing they accuse me of doing, oddly enough.

quote:
Go ahead. Belittle me. I know it's coming. I expect it and eagerly anticipate its' arrival. However, it will be to your utmost disappointment to know that I will not reply. I don't play that game.

Belittle you? The only thing I take issue with is you brining in that other thread. There is an ugly attitude out there that geocaching can't/isn't doing damage. I strongly beg to differ. If often doesn't, but sometimes does.

To sum up that thread, is it really logical to justify geocaching because no one will know in 10,000 years? Try using that logic the next time you're asking to place a cache. I assure you it won't fly.

quote:
If you wish to continue with sensible, meaningful, respectfulconversation, so be it. However, I believe I can reasonably assure myself that this may very well be beyond your capabilities.

I assure you it isn't. However, I don't play intellectual softball. If someone is going to start to balk at words like "onus", or "charicature" (give me a break...it's not like they're unusual words), they won't get much of a break from me.

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Poor spelling skills.

Yet he calls those who disagree with him morons.

So sue me. You really want me to start attacking spelling and grammer here? I'm no word maven, but neither is anyone else here that I can see.

I don't call people I disagree with morons. I call people morons who fail to consider anything past their short-sighted notions.

George

38.2k · July 28, 2003

Someone who doesn't know how to spell caricature, or know the difference between they're and their won't get much of a break from me.

quote:
The only thing I take issue with is you brining in that other thread.

Is he soaking the thread in a salt solution?

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

July 28, 2003

.

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Someone who doesn't know how to spell _caricature_, or know the difference between _they're_ and _their_ won't get much of a break from me.

Good for you. We could also go back and dissect to/too if you wish.

I sliped on the "h", I admit, but I'm not sure where I've used the incorrect they're/there/their...at least recently.

Go ahead and mark up this thread with all the spelling and gramatical errors you want. I'm sure it will be very productive.

George

38.2k · July 28, 2003

quote:
Go ahead and mark up this thread with all the spelling and gramatical errors you want. I'm sure it will be very productive.

Sure, I'll do it while you put down posters for their vocabulary.

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

24.7k · July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Yep. More knee-jerk geocachers. That's right, GEOCACHERS.

Geocachers dodging the rangers...rangers asking to have caches removed from sensitive areas...geocachers on closed trails...there's probably more if you do the research.

The original post seems level-headed and well reasoned given the circumstances.

Of course, it's far easier for some geocachers to complain that someone is screwing up their fun.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. It's these asinine attitudes that give geocaching a bad name.

George

I said it once I'll say it again. It's these asinine attitudes that give certain people a bad reputation.

No need for me to spar with you in this thread. I see you have made more fans. Step back away from the keyboard and calm that knee from spasming. Then think, no really I mean think. Once you have engaged the brain, and disengaged the flamethrower as well as your ponderous ego. Then and only then will you be ready to type something. If you do this you will find that even if people don't agree you will gain some respect. With a little courtesy your message will travel farther.

July 28, 2003

I'm sorry, Brian. I don't make a habit going around doing that.

The word "onus" was brought up by a person who seemed to feel it was easy for the original poster to look a cacher informatin, but couldn't be bothered to look up "onus" themselves. That just struck me as an odd contradiction.

"Slather" seemed to get dissed for no particular reason. It might not be the word I would have chosen, but I understood the meaning. Again, it wasn't me who brought up that issue.

There's has been a lot of deflection here, but I can handle it. I'm still waiting for someone to construct a reasonable response to the original poster by addressing her concerns and issues.

Ce'Nedra and Huntnlady sounded like they may have some real scientific objections which I'd like to hear more about. Not that I agree with the original poster's claims. I would just like to see her concerns treated with respect, rather than see the ugly dogpile that unfortunately occured.

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
No need for me to spar with you in this thread. I see you have made more fans.

Doesn't concern me too much. It's not a popularity contest, but from what's been going on off-line I'm quite pleased with the response I'm getting.

Well, for the most part. Unfortunately there are those who are leaving geocaching.com for other pastures because of policy issues, but you can't fix everything.

"Ponderous Ego", huh? Well, give me a logical argument backed by facts and see if you can deflate it.

George

24.7k · July 28, 2003

kmugwort,

Thank you for your thoughtful post in the geocaching forums. It’s evident that you have put a lot of thought into your post. It’s hard to determine from your post if you have tried geocaching to get a feel for what it’s like, what it takes and the general flavor of the sport.

Your advice seems very specific to areas with endangered flora and fauna. For those areas your advice would be well taken. However most geocachers are not in areas nearly as sensitive. Part of the sport is it’s sheer varaiablity. That requires a sensible and flexible approach to conservation. Most geocachers practice “CITO” cache in and trash out. Most subscribe to the principals of Tread Lightly and other programs to minimize their impact to the environment.

Your advice seem tailored to one specific region with a sensitive environment. Perhaps your comments would be better directed to the owner of any specific cache that might have been placed in the area you are concerned about.

24.7k · July 28, 2003

there you go nincehelser, just to show you how it's done. You didn't rise to your own challenge. Instead you launched into whatever it was that earned you such a following of well wishers.

July 28, 2003

Nowhere does this lady assert any authority whatsoever over Daley Ranch. She is apparently president of some group calling themselves "Friends of Daley Ranch." There doesn't appear to be any connection between her organization and Daley Ranch other than her organization taking donations to help care for the ranch.

A quick whois on fodr.org finds that the domain was registered on May 31, 2003. Daley Ranch opened to the public on April 26, 1997.

IMHO, This woman's nothing but a tree-hugging granola cruncher who makes herself feel important by taking on the cause of the apparently dwindling population of coastal sage plants (despite what the EPA says - it's a conspiracy) and telling complete strangers what not to do on public land that their tax dollars are paying for.

nincehelser:

You been talking a lot about people not doing enough research and your wonderfully splenderifical use of the English language.

I have two things to say to you.

First, your use of the word "oration" was wholly incorrect. In order to orate, you need to be speaking. I mention it because you used it while attempting to belittle another user who posted a written message. I'm sure there were other errors in your messages, but that one was glaring like a misaligned headlight on a dark highway.

Second, you have a thing or three to learn about shooting your mouth off about people not researching something before doing a thorough research job yourself. Without even looking at this woman's credentials or what the situation with the Daley Ranch is, you found seven caches which YOU found to be in violation of some unwritten, unknown policy and condemned them to archival.

You need to get off your high horse and come back down to earth. You're the only person that I've noticed who didn't think that this woman was being condescending in her attitude toward geocaching. Whether or not any of her points are valid is irrelevant. People aren't going to listen to someone who: a) doesn't have clear authority to tell them what to do/not do; or talks down to them as if they're small children who are unable to read the signs and figure things out for themselves.

Whew. Now, with all that said, it does appear that there are some legitimate conservation issues with Daley Ranch and people should be careful to follow the rules regarding official vs. unofficial trails etc. If any caches are endangering the local flora or are placed in an area which isn't appropriate, they should be moved or archived. This isn't a Daley Ranch thing, this is a responsible geocaching thing and I think that we all agree that these are the guidelines that we all try to follow, regardless of location.

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

July 28, 2003

Nice try, RK, but why didn't you do that in the first place, huh? Seems like you were one of the first on the dog pile, questioning her authority.

And how about the cache logs from the region? Are you just going to ignore them, hoping she won't notice?

George

3.8k · July 28, 2003

This is fun! Reminds me of a group of Tasmanian Devils with a piece of meat!

==============="If it feels good...do it"================

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")**

.

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sept1c_tank:
This is _fun!_ Reminds me of a group of Tasmanian Devils with a piece of meat!

LOL!

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

July 28, 2003

Why does everyone have their panties all in a bunch?

The situation is simple:

The apparent property manager says, go ahead and geocache, just be careful. The rest is nitpicking on your parts.

The response here SHOULD have been "Thanks for reminding us to respect YOUR property."

I dread to think what other property managers will think of this group after reading these replies.

Mickey

Max Entropy

More than just a name, a lifestyle.

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:

You been talking a lot about people not doing enough research and your wonderfully splenderifical use of the English language.

I have two things to say to you.

First, your use of the word "oration" was wholly incorrect. In order to orate, you need to be speaking. I mention it because you used it while attempting to belittle another user who posted a written message. I'm sure there were other errors in your messages, but that one was glaring like a misaligned headlight on a dark highway.

Gee. I used the word "oration"? Praytell, where did I do that? Get your facts straight, please.

quote:
Second, you have a thing or three to learn about shooting your mouth off about people not researching something before doing a thorough research job yourself. Without even looking at this woman's credentials or what the situation with the Daley Ranch is, you found seven caches which YOU found to be in violation of some unwritten, unknown policy and condemned them to archival.

Excuse me again, but what seven caches did I find? I only saw two, but noticed what was in their logs which indicate a violation of the geocaching rules. Someone else posted something about 7 caches. It wasn't me.

quote:
You need to get off your high horse and come back down to earth. You're the only person that I've noticed who didn't think that this woman was being condescending in her attitude toward geocaching.

Ummm....just what are you riding on? Anyway, it doesn't matter if you think she was condescending or not, just address the points she gave. The tone of her letter doesn't give you grounds for dismissing her message. She could have been a lot uglier.

quote:
Whether or not any of her points are valid is irrelevant.

Sorry. They are totally relevant and deserve a respectful reply.

quote:
People aren't going to listen to someone who: a) doesn't have clear authority to tell them what to do/not do;

By that logic, I should tune you out now, but whatever...

quote:
or talks down to them as if they're small children who are unable to read the signs and figure things out for themselves.

Are you telling me that there *AREN'T* people unable to read and follow the signs? What about the geocacher logs where they clearly are going against the posted signs?

quote:
Whew. Now, with all that said, it does appear that there are some legitimate conservation issues with Daley Ranch and people should be careful to follow the rules regarding official vs. unofficial trails etc. If any caches are endangering the local flora or are placed in an area which isn't appropriate, they should be moved or archived. This isn't a Daley Ranch thing, this is a responsible geocaching thing and I think that we all agree that these are the guidelines that we all try to follow, regardless of location.

Well, with that paragraph I can agree 100%!

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by MaxEntropy:
Why does everyone have their panties all in a bunch?

The situation is simple:

The apparent property manager says, go ahead and geocache, just be careful. The rest is nitpicking on your parts.

The response here SHOULD have been "Thanks for reminding us to respect YOUR property."

But that would be far too simple!

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by MaxEntropy:
The apparent property manager says, ... "Thanks for reminding us to respect YOUR property."

That's just it - it's not apparent that she's the property manager. The property belongs to the city of Escondido. FODR is a group designated to collect donations to help pay for the maintenance of the ranch. I found nothing in my web searching which indicates that they have any authority over DR at all.

It's not (for me, at least) about wanting to go trampling over the brush regardless of what anyone says. It's about someone coming into a completely foreign message forum and talking down to the regular members. Imagine what would happen if someone walked into the middle of a group of Hell's Angels and told them that the highways that their tax dollars paid for and which are open to the public were not available for cruising on their motorcycles - only cars.

I'd like to add one other factoid about Daley Ranch - it's open to hikers, mountain bikers and equestrians. I can't see a geocacher causing more damage than a horse...

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:

quote:
Originally posted by MaxEntropy:
The apparent property manager says, ... "Thanks for reminding us to respect YOUR property."

That's just it - it's not apparent that she's the property manager. The property belongs to the city of Escondido. FODR is a group designated to collect donations to help pay for the maintenance of the ranch. I found nothing in my web searching which indicates that they have any authority over DR at all.

She might, or she might not. I agree we don't know for certain, but is there not a way to address her concerns without resorting so quickly to the "authority" issue?

People seem quick to acuse me of not having tact, but I would at least have the sense to figure out just what her roll is, before slashing her down as some kind of killjoy.

She could very well be in a position to impact the geocaching scene in that region. Why risk the bad blood?

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:

quote:
Originally posted by MaxEntropy:
The apparent property manager says, ... "Thanks for reminding us to respect YOUR property."

That's just it - it's not apparent that she's the property manager. The property belongs to the city of Escondido. FODR is a group designated to collect donations to help pay for the maintenance of the ranch. I found nothing in my web searching which indicates that they have any authority over DR at all.

She might, or she might not. I agree we don't know for certain, but is there not a way to address her concerns without resorting so quickly to the "authority" issue?

People seem quick to acuse me of not having tact, but I would at least have the sense to figure out just what her role is, before slashing her down as some kind of killjoy.

She could very well be in a position to impact the geocaching scene in that region. Why risk the bad blood?

George

1.3k · July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
My argument is well thought-out and sound. Try me big-boy. I know words like "onus" and "slather" and am not scared by the likes of you!

Here we have belittling morons who chide the original poster because she doesn't have the skill to track down the cacher, yet that person can't be bothered to look up a simple word like "onus". And woe be to the big-wig who might use something as stuffy and pretentious as the word "slathered"! I guess they've never been to a barbecue.

Boy, U R so smart with ur book lernin' an' such. I'm glad the likes a you and Bassoonpilot are around ta keep us simpal folk on the str8 'n' narra. I'm glad none a us botherd to form-a-late r own 'pinions.

All ya that is sparrin' wit' George - STOP IT! Ur takin' his valible time from solvin' world hungr 'n' what not. Ya know, smart folk stuff.

July 28, 2003

That's pretty good typing for a moose!

George

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Gee. I used the word "oration"? Praytell, where did I do that?

You didn't. You're the only person I noticed throghout this thread who seemed to hold him/herself 30,000 feet above everyone else and I thought that the post I saw that in was yours. I stand corrected.

quote:
Excuse me again, but what seven caches did I find? I only saw two, but noticed what was in their logs which indicate a violation of the geocaching rules.

That was supposed to be "several", in reference to the logs you posted early on in the thread. The "seven" must've been in my head from southdeltan's post about having found that many in Daley Ranch. I missed it while proof reading..

quote:
The tone of her letter doesn't give you grounds for dismissing her message.

Until she demonstrates some legal (not moral) authority over the area, it certainly does.

quote:
Sorry. They are totally relevant and deserve a respectful reply.

Respect is earned. She's got negative points on the respec-o-meter. Again, until she demonstrates some legal authority over the land, she's nothing but an overly vocal tree-hugger in my book.

quote:
Are you telling me that there *AREN'T* people unable to read and follow the signs?

Of course there are. I'm not disagreeing with your "one bad apple" concept, but there's likely to be an equal number of irresponsible mountain bikers and equestrians, if not more. Generally speaking, cachers tend to be more environmentally conscious than the average Joe. I seriously doubt that this woman's going around to mountain bike and hiking forums and spewing the same type of condescending messages. She's obviously new to the geocaching concept and like so many others, she's afraid of the unknown. She assumes that because it's not an established form of recreation that she's well acquainted and comfortable with, it must be dangerous to the land she goes out hugging every weekend.

quote:
What about the geocacher logs where they clearly are going against the posted signs?

I'm not sure whether you mean the hiders or finders by "they", or if perhaps one implies the other. Regardless, people shouldn't be going against the posted rules of any managed land, at Daley Ranch or anywhere else. As I said before, if there's a legitimate issue with a cache, it should be handled appropriately.

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

1.3k · July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by kmugwort:
Dear Folks,

Your new sport sounds like fun and we would truly appreciate it if you

would

slather on the following cautions for your users:

1) DO NOT STRAY from the formal, marked trails in an area; do not plant

your

"caches" or do anything to encourage off-trail activity.

Everywhere we cache, or only in sensitive ares?

quote:
2) DO NOT hike, walk, bike, horseback ride, etc,... after dark. Most of

the

animals in these habitats are nocturnal. Disturbing their hunting and

foraging with human presence is life threatening for them.

How are humans more disturbing than other large animals? Exactly which habitats have you mentioned so far?

quote:
BACKGROUND GENERALITIES:

1. California's Coastal Sage Scrub and chaparral in particular are

endangered habitats: 99% GONE, no matter what the EPA says. It's not a

political issue, it's just a fact.

Oh, thank goodness you know more than the EPA. Now, how does this apply to caches everywhere, since you weren't specifying an area wherin we should curtail our activity.

quote:
2. Birds and other critters in these ecosystems often nest on or close to

the ground --- breaking brush cover exposes them to elevated rates of

predation, from both their natural predators in the food web as well as

feral predators from nearby human settlements. Some birds won't even nest within 100 meters of human-made paths.

If they won't nest near human paths, there is little chance of their nests being disturbed by humans on a human path.

quote:
3. Even a step on the "crust" of the substrate in these habitats can

damage

the lichen, fungi, and micorhyzomes that are critical to the health of

soils

for native plants.

Native to where? I thought lichen grew on rock, not on the middle of a trail. Which species of lichen grows in the area you are referring to? Which plant's microrhizomes will be damaged? I'm pretty sure there are no lichen in my area, but perhaps we shouldn't cache here either because some bacteria might be squished as we walk. Poor little bacteria.

quote:
4. Repeated use by those that follow squiggles of newly trampled brush or

broken crust creates paths that result in fragmentation of habitat as

surely

as any new roadway. --- Fragmentation and edge effects are major

contributors to extinction.

What other groups (besides geocachers) have you contacted about this? Do you have a road to your house? Was there a sensitive habitat there years ago that was destroyed? Do you feel guilty whenever you use a road?

quote:
5. Ecosystems arise over the course of millenia of climatic change and

genetic adaptation. We have places on Daley Ranch that demonstrate that

even

after decades, the native habitats do not recover their full biodiversity

and complexity, once they have been damaged. This is particularly true for

ecosystems in arid regions such as Southern California.l

So this area is already damaged, decades before geocaching was even concieved?

quote:

PLEASE PLEASE advance the cause. Enjoy your sport and EDUCATE YOUR MEMBERS

to be responsible users in endangered habitats. Understand that we are all

in this together. Conservation and responsible use benefit ALL the

taxpayers

as well as the native plants and animals with which we share the planet.

I pay my taxes, doesn't that entitle me to use public lands as I see fit? (Within the regulations set forth by the land managers, of course.)

Caching does take people off trail. But now you're referring to the entire planet. Perhaps you could suggest ares that are suitable for caching while you are defending areas that are not.

quote:
Thanks,

Sally Thomas,

President, Friends of Daley Ranch

fodr.org

Don't crush the brush!

Don't bash the cache!

"Chock full of essential vitamins and waypoints"

July 29, 2003

Well, I have to get into this thread just a little - seems to me I'm getting some mixed signals from this Daley Ranch.

On one hand, we're told "Now listen kiddees, don't bend the blades of grass", and on their website it's, "Common over, let's party with our mountain bikes!" Daley Ranch

As far as the "99% Gone" statement originally made, everyone knows that at least 75% of the time statistics are made up on the spot.

I think we are getting a little tired of being preached to for this topic or that topic or this other topic - or whatever.

If the powers at Daley Ranch want to allow 'conditioning hikes' or mountain bikes or bird stalking hikes and ban small hidden tupperware containers because someone's footsteps might be noticed, I really don't care anymore.

"The hardest thing to find is something that's not there!"

July 29, 2003

After reading this entire thread, I have a few thoughts.

1. I was one of the first to read this person's post yesterday. My thoughts were, "Who do you think you are?" I did not post as I have no plans to go caching in her part of the country, nor do I plan on stomping on any sage bushes.

2. Nincehelser, are you trying to wave the "Save the Geocaching image" banner, or are you trying to impale people with it?

And lastly,

3. This thread needs an enema!

OG

Prophetically Challenged (or is that Pathetically?)

5.9k · July 29, 2003

My thoughts on this thread are here.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

July 29, 2003

You are sooo right og's outfit. This thread does need an enema!

Now, it's time for a little decision-making.

Where should we put the tube?

This 'flying saucer' situation is not at all imaginary or seeing too much in some natural phenomena. Something is really flying around. The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious. - Gen. Nathan Twining Chief of Staff, US Air Force, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

Tax Payers Unite for Conservation of natural habitats

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