This cache is dangerous and illegal

November 8, 2002

Cache name: WIRED

New user, no finds, one hide.

This cache is dangerous and illegal. The cache requires you to stop on the shoulder of a state thruway. How did this one get by the screeners?

Geonavigating since 1991

5.9k · November 8, 2002

OK, this cache is not for you. You made the adult decision to pass on this one. Why do you think so little of everyone else, as though they could not make that decision for themselves?

I'm not trying to offend, but what's it to you?

It may very well be the intent of the cache owner that a finder has to violate a law to find it. It's probably more like the hider didn't know.

Please don't misinterpret what I’m saying. But it doesn't affect you so why is it your concern?

5k · November 8, 2002

Hmmm, my first red flag for this cache is the statement "There's nothing interesting about the location of the cache" in the description. That right there is an issue.

Regarding the danger... well, any cache can be dangerous. And this one certainly does not "require" stopping on the interstate. However, given its location, I imagine most cachers would be tempted to stop illegally on the side of the road to get it. And as far as I can tell, the hider intends for folks to do that, considering the 1/1 rating (which is probably not accurate). I'd probably feel better if the cache description had instruction on parking and walking through the woods to this one.

MrMom, you do have the option for posting a "Cache should be archived" note on the cache page, which would draw the attention of the admins, so they can take a closer look.

Jamie

1.5k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
Please don't misinterpret what I’m saying. But it doesn't affect you so why is it your concern?

I think you need to work on realizing that a lot of folks here don't share your philosophy, Criminal.

In my opinion, people should be encouraged to discuss caches which they feel are dangerously placed. If someone gets hurt while geocaching, it could hurt the activity.

Simply posting "it ain't your concern so shuddup" isn't contributing to the discussion.

November 8, 2002

quote:
New user, no finds, one hide.
This cache is dangerous and illegal.

A simple private e-mail to the new Geocacher might have been a more appropriate way to deal with your concerns - rather than a public rebuke on the forums.

If you felt that the issue needed to be addressed to a wider audience then the specific cache or cacher is not relevant to such discussion.

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

5.9k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
Please don't misinterpret what I’m saying. But it doesn't affect you so why is it your concern?

I think you need to work on realizing that a lot of folks here don't share your philosophy, Criminal.

In my opinion, people _should_ be encouraged to _discuss_ caches which they feel are dangerously placed. If someone gets hurt while geocaching, it could hurt the activity.

Simply posting "it ain't your concern so shuddup" isn't contributing to the discussion.

I can't find the statement you put in quotes above. Please get a book and study the purpose for quotation marks.

Sorry, I don't buy the theory that a bad cache reflects anything about geocaching or geocachers. We'll have to agree to disagree on that issue. I stand by my position that if it ain't yours, don't f*ck with it.

6.4k · November 8, 2002

Let me start by saying I have no local knowledge of this area, so I could be totally wrong here.

Looking at the maps and charts, I see plenty of other legal looking access points to get to this cache.

I would look at some of the local side streets, to see if there is a trail heading into the area. It also looks like it might be accessable from the HS parking lot.

Sure, they might require you to park more then 100ft from the cache, but to me, thats a sign of creativity. Some of the most clever caches I've ever found were ones that looked simple and were not. "You can't get there from here" type of caches. We have one locally that on the surface looks just like the one you are complaining about. On a map, its 5ft from the side of a major, no parking allowed, road. In reality, you need to park 1/4 mile away, and travel thru the wildlife preserve to area the ELEVATED ROADWAY passes over.

So, unless someone can tell me without a doubt that the area of that cache can not be accessed from anyplace other than that highway shoulder, the cache should stay. I do think the hider would need to add a note mentioning that it CAN be reached legally, and possibly suggesting parking place or trailhead co-ordinates.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

3k · November 8, 2002

He even states he'll try to find someplace interesting to put it later. He should have thought of that part first before throwing it out the window of his car.

Cache you later,

Planet

"It doesn't matter whether you're going somewhere or nowhere, whether you're doing something or nothing. If you're doing it in a boat it's the best time ever!" -Water Rat from "The Wind in the Willows" by Kenneth Grahame (a book I picked up in a cache)

November 8, 2002

I am curious if there is a fence on the Highway preventing access from there. I know around here, alot of highways have fences bordering them. The easy solution as already stated would be to put parking co-ords on the cache page.

---------------------------------------------------------------

"You're no verra sensible, Sassenach, but I like ye fine. Let's go."

3k · November 8, 2002

Next thing you know MrMom is going to pickup caches out there that he doesn't feel are legal and not tell the hiders about it. Just Kidding MrMom.

I do say so what though. As has always been stated before: It is the finders choice to go after it or not. End of story.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

2.6k · November 8, 2002

There is a small wooded area near the cache. I'd assume you'd enter through the wooded area and not the freeway. There even looks to be a path through the trees and a clearing near where the cache would be.

Look here

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

November 8, 2002

To prevent deer- car accident the NY thruway authority maintains a large fence just inside of the treeline. The cache is roadside. BTW stopping is illegal.

Caches such as this - DOES give ALL of us a bad name. Hmmmm some believe that we are shovel wielding hole digging environment destroying maniacs. The negative image is derived from a poorly placed cache. Some wonder why sections of land are closed to the sport.

Do we police ourselves or do we let them legislate it.

I certainly do not want the government lurking in our sport.

Geonavigating since 1991

20.7k · November 8, 2002

I'm not convinced that there is anything inappropriate with this cache.

The map shows it to be about 80-100 feet from the thruway. At this distance, it is unlikely that it is even accessible from I-90.

Sure, by his own admission, it may not be the most scenic cache find, but it is unlikely to be a dangerous find.

MrMom, have you searched for this cache? If not, let's wait until we have heard from someone who has found it before we get excited.

I certainly agree with you (as I'm sure most cachers do) that if it does require you to stop on the thruway to access it, it should be removed and archived.

That being said, the Buffalo area certainly needs more caches. I certainly would look for this one the next time I'm in the area.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

November 8, 2002

An aerial photo of the coordinates shows it off the very wide shoulder and near the bushes. Just because he says it is 'off I-90' doesn't mean you may have to park on the shoulder. You may have to walk through the surrounding woods to access it. Now if it was in the meridian strip, that would be another thing!

The adventures of Navdog, Justdog, and Otterpup

1.5k · November 8, 2002

Of course it is the cacher's choice to seek out any given cache, however pointing out that fact isn't constructive to the discussion.

I do not believe that we should discourage anybody from discussing legal/safety concerns in this forum.

That's all I have to say, have a nice day.

1.5k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by MrMom:
To prevent deer- car accident the NY thruway authority maintains a large fence just inside of the treeline. The cache is roadside. BTW stopping is illegal.

2.6k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by MrMom:
To prevent deer- car accident the NY thruway authority maintains a large fence just inside of the treeline. The cache is roadside. BTW stopping is illegal.

Have you actually gone out to the cache to see where it is? I don't mean drive by on the freeway, but tried to get to the cache legally and have seen the cache in the illegal area?

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

2.5k · November 8, 2002

What was the hider's reply when you emailed him about it?

1.4k · November 8, 2002

The aerial on Lostoutdoors.com shows what appears to be a fence line, with the coordinates very near the fence, but on the opposite side of the fence from I-90. I don't think there's anything illegal about the cache, as long as the woods northwest of the fence are public property. I think it probably would be a good idea for the cache page to suggest NOT parking on I-90, however I also don't think it's required.

November 8, 2002

Considering the GPS accuracy, the cache might actually be very much into the woods.

Let's not forget that our "trusty" GPS readings can be off by ten meters or more sometimes. Assuming that the cache is exactly at the red dot is, as we all should know, a very faulty and bad assumption. It could be anywhere within several hundred (or thousand if the error is large enough) square feet of the dot.

I just looked up my home coordinates on LostOutdoors.com. Apparently my living room is actually in my next door neighbor's house some 70' away.

The cache is actually located where the cache is. Everything else is just a rough guess.

2.6k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:

quote:
Originally posted by MrMom:
To prevent deer- car accident the _NY thruway authority maintains a large fence just inside of the treeline_. The _cache is roadside_. BTW stopping is illegal.

Didn't miss it, I just don't know how he came to this determination?

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by MrMom:
Caches such as this - DOES give ALL of us a bad name. Hmmmm some believe that we are shovel wielding hole digging environment destroying maniacs. The negative image is derived from a poorly placed cache. Some wonder why sections of land are closed to the sport.

Do we police ourselves or do we let them legislate it.

I certainly do not want the government lurking in our sport.

I dont know of any piece of non-privately owned land where there is a sign stating "Geocaching on this land is prohibited by xyz law". Can you post a pik of such a sign? I do know park and forest rangers who, if they find a cache, will either check it out to make sure there's nothing illegal in it or have experts come down and inspect it, but otherwise they leave it alone. After all, its in their interests to have people use the park, and geocaching is generally no more destructive than camping, fishing or hiking.

As far as the govt lurking in our sport goes, absent the govt we wouldn't have a sport. Despite Markwell's obvious qualities I don't see him placing and maintaining a bunch of satellites for our caching pleasure. Our sport exists at the discretion of the US government, all it takes is one president to put SA back into the mix and we're finished (call it a measure to increase homeland security, if you like).

That having been said, I do agree that if a cache is placed in what might well be a dangerous place, the onus is on the cacher to make this clear. For example, Mexican Standoff's 2nd section clearly states "#2 Requires SCUBA gear to reach. DO NOT attempt if you are not a certified diver."

Not having hunted for Wired, I couldn't tell you about how dangerous the access is, but judging from the map I would concur with the previous posters, it does appear that the area is accessible by a number of different routes, not least of all from the residential area at Midway Court. The roadway doesn't appear to be elevated, and it would appear that the cache is far enough from the highway for it not be perilous to its seekers.

To close, I'd like to quote from this site's FAQ section:

"What are the rules in Geocaching?

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

1. Take something from the cache

2. Leave something in the cache

3. Write about it in the logbook

Where you place a cache is up to you."

Would seem to cover all the bases.

3.1k · November 8, 2002

If it is in fact on the road side of the fence, it should be archived. Yes, any cache can be dangerous to the cacher, but a car stopped on a freeway is a potential danger to others.

"It doesn't take a nucular scientist to pronounce 'foilage'." --Marge Simpson

4.8k · November 8, 2002

Unless the only way to get there is by parking on the side of the interstate, I'm ok with it. I agree with those who say that the owner should have stated on the cache page that people should access the cache from somewhere else.

The Look Both Ways cache is an example of a cache placed near several busy intersections and a page that explains to park in a parking lot to access it. I personally really liked this cache becasue the location was unique!

November 8, 2002

True, you should make your own decisions about what caches to go after.

True, this particular case probably didn't warrant this thread, especially since it appears the cache in question may NOT be dangerous and illegal.

And, true, the cache hider need not spell out the safest, easiest route to a cache.

BUT... the selfish, anarchistic attituides expressed by some here will be the end of Geoaching (I'll refrain from extending it to "life as we know it" this time).

We have to obey the law, we have to self-police, or Geocaching will be outlawed and Jeremy will get this web site sued out of exisitence. This is a community activity and we are a society of laws.

Individual Responsiblity includes being responsible for the welfare of your community.

If you want a laws-be-damned, anything-goes policy, go start another website.

Grr.

ApK

November 8, 2002

First of all, I'd like to let everyone know that this cache is perfectly safe & legal. I will update the cache page to fix this omission.

It would have been nice to get an email from MrMom about the concern instead of jumping to conclusions giving me and my cache a bad rep.

Next time, MrMom, check your claims before running your mouth.

Regards,

Fabien.

5.9k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by ApK:
True, you should make your own decisions about what caches to go after.

True, this particular case probably didn't warrant this thread, especially since it appears the cache in question may NOT be dangerous and illegal.

And, true, the cache hider need not spell out the safest, easiest route to a cache.

BUT... the selfish, anarchistic attituides expressed by some here will be the end of Geoaching (I'll refrain from extending it to "life as we know it" this time).

We have to obey the law, we have to self-police, or Geocaching will be outlawed and Jeremy will get this web site sued out of exisitence. This is a community activity and we are a society of laws.

Individual Responsiblity includes being responsible for the welfare of your community.

If you want a laws-be-damned, anything-goes policy, go start another website.

Grr.

ApK

I figure you're referring to my post so I'll reply. You’re misconstruing my intent. I never said we should have no rules. I think we have plenty and we don’t need any MORE rules. MrMom said you had to park along the freeway. Says who? Maybe you have to parachute in. Maybe you have to climb over the fence. Maybe you have to crawl through the storm sewer. Oh sorry, I forgot we must not think outside the box. Challenge is a ten letter dirty word.

“Individual Responsiblity includes being responsible for the welfare of your community.”

Thanks for looking out for everyone; we’re too inept to be alive without you (general you, not specific you)

How about this, post the coordinates for you driveway. Finders can toot the horn and you could run the cache out to them.

November 8, 2002

To the owner of wired:

Thank you for updating the page. We don't need people stopping on the highway.

Geonavigating since 1991

November 8, 2002

Who appointed you Geo-cop anyways?

6.4k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by 1000111-1000101-1001111:

First of all, I'd like to let everyone know that this cache is perfectly safe & legal. I will update the cache page to fix this omission.

It would have been nice to get an email from MrMom about the concern instead of jumping to conclusions giving me and my cache a bad rep.

Next time, MrMom, check your claims before running your mouth.

Regards,

Fabien.

71-69-79? Is that your old school locker combo or something?

Thank's for clarifying the situation. I had a strong hunch that this was the case (see my previous post). I wouldnt come down too hard on MrMom, I'm sure he thought this was dangerous, and had he not brought it to your attention, it's very possible less experienced (or stupid) cachers might have attempted it from the freeway. Glad to see the updated description, although *I* would have been happy with a simple "Do not park some place illegal or stupid for this cache".

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

3k · November 8, 2002

I think 1000111-1000101-1001111 is a little upset. Just think of all the free publicity you cache just got. I wouldn't look at in a negative way. Thanks for posting here and clearing things up. Usually when things like this happen we never hear from the person in question and things are just left unknown.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

November 8, 2002

Ok, I *know* I'm going to get flamed for this one, but maybe I can borrow Crim's asbestos underoos

Yes, thanks for updating the Wired page - perhaps you can stick a 10'x10' hazard-orange flag on top of the cache, and a radio beacon inside so we can find it. I understand that there are people who cache with small people or who prefer a nice walk in the park to an arduous bushwhack...I can't help feeling that directions (park here, go here, climb on top of this) are best placed encrypted in the hints. That way, if you want them you can have them, otherwise those of us for whom planning the hunt is as much fun as hunting the cache can make our own way - if that involves parking on a freeway, then we're probably to stupid to live, and Darwinism will take care of us.

PS No offense, 1000111 - I liked the cache the way it was - just trying maintain some mystery to the hunt, else before we know it we'll have guided tours of the top 10 caches in the area and stickers on ammo boxes saying "This product contains items known to the state of California to cause frustration when you can't find the bugger".

November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
How about this, post the coordinates for you driveway. Finders can toot the horn and you could run the cache out to them.

That would be akin to spelling out the easiest route to a cache, which I specifically mentioned is not needed.

More to the point, the looking out for your community I was refering to, as I hope I made clear, is protecting the existence of the game, not looking out for the saftey of each player.

That was in response to the comments by you and umc that were along the lines of "why should you care if it's not hurting you." My response is "we should all care because it hurts all of us."

Your specific comments didn't seem to address the issue of new rules, which I usually agree with you on, but rather, as I've disagreed with before, ignoring rules we already have.

ApK

3k · November 8, 2002

Whats so wrong with parking on a freeway anyway?

I see people there all the time. Changing a tire reposition items in a trailer or back of a truck, taking a piss over the rail or whatever. Anything is dangerous but what are you to do when you blow a head gasket on your truck and your on the freeway? park in the middle of the xway or off to the side? Are we all a little too excitable? YES Look at the pic of my cache, you can park on the highway if you want and think thats how your supposed to get there. For sure it will be shorter but dadgum if you can't decide on your own how to get to a cache then maybe this hobby is not for you (not pointing at anyone in general)

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:
71-69-79? Is that your old school locker combo or something?

I believe it's ASCII for 'GEO'.

W ezlf fr Cnzfajnzb Omdg, mlx mnn w prf emq fjwq nrhqb abojzd.

5k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by 1000111-1000101-1001111:
Who appointed you Geo-cop anyways?

I'm glad you updated the page, but I must comment on this comment.

We're a self-policing communtity. Therefore, we're all "geo-cop's." Sure, there are other ways this could have been handled, but I don't think bringing it up in the forums is such a big deal. No one thinks you are a bad person... we just discussed the cache that you placed. That's all.

Hey, does anyone (Markwell) remember the cache a while back that was placed in the middle of a cloverleaf? I did a search but came up empty,

Jamie

3k · November 8, 2002

I think 1000111-1000101-1001111 is a bad person.

Come to think of it so am I

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

November 8, 2002

STOP STICKING YOUR TONGUE OUT AT ME!!!!!!!!!!

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

3.1k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Vonster:
I can't help feeling that directions (park here, go here, climb on top of this) are best placed encrypted in the hints.

Aaah! No parking directions in the encrypted hints, please!

Now that we all know for certain the cache is clear of the freeway, I really don't think the parking directions are necessary; if not for this thread, it probably wouldn't have crossed my mind that it might be on the freeway. Still, to me, driving around looking for a good place to park is tedious -- I want to get walkin' -- so I appreciate parking directions when the reasonable spot isn't obvious.

"It doesn't take a nucular scientist to pronounce 'foilage'." --Marge Simpson

6.4k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Z:

We're a self-policing communtity. Therefore, we're _all_ "geo-cop's." Sure, there are other ways this could have been handled, but I don't think bringing it up in the forums is such a big deal. No one thinks you are a bad person... we just discussed the cache that you placed. That's all.

Hey, does anyone (Markwell) remember the cache a while back that was placed in the middle of a cloverleaf? I did a search but came up empty,

Jamie

I agree with ya JZ. It wasn't handled perfectly, but it was handled without archiving the cache, at least.

I remember the cloverleaf cache, it was in the Atlanta, GA area, I think.

quote:
Originally posted by SimonG:
I believe it's ASCII for 'GEO'.

DOH! I missed that one. See, I didnt think far enough outside the box that time myself.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

5.9k · November 8, 2002

___________________________________________

That was in response to the comments by you and umc that were along the lines of "why should you care if it's not hurting you." My response is "we should all care because it hurts all of us."

_____________________________________________

We'll have to agree to disagree. I have never seen any evidence the paradigm is true. I have friends who are democrats but I don't think they're ALL smoking damp cigars (like clinton). Like I’ve said before, if someone bores a hole through a redwood tree to hide a cache inside, does that impart guilt on us all? A few people will jump to the conclusion that all geocachers are mean tree haters, but they, like their stereotype, are inconsequential. I’m sidling up to the edge of beating a dead horse here, but the original post said it was both illegal and dangerous. We know now it was neither. There are rules and procedures for dealing with an illegally placed cache, (the danger is all on you), the forums are not the place to make such a statement. We would all love to discuss whether or not it was illegal or too dangerous, but that’s not how it was presented.

The comment about the driveway was hyperbole. MrMom assumed you had to park along the freeway. I was trying to point out that there are a number of other ways to get from point A to point G. Nothing on the website compels you to make a cache accessible by walking there. There’s an unfound near me that would be best done by boat. It’s on an island. But you could also swim, (though you’d probably die), you could get there by motorized parasail, or you could launch yourself out of a cannon. Look at post #2, I thought I was being very non-condemning.

2.7k · November 8, 2002

If you go to Lostoutdoors.com you can see the dot is quite aways from the TWAY.http://www.lostoutdoors.com/map.php

Through TopoZone it appears to be on the pavement.

From experience unless you've been there how can it be deemed dangerous. I've lived back there and there are lots of places that you can cross the TWAY by using local streams and drainages.

If one was to look at the map, access depending on private property could be obtained from Rt. 20

And don'' knock the guy because he has no finds but 1 plant.

I did one of the toughest in No Colorado yesterday that was done by a single planter with 0 finds. If more cachers had this persons ability to plot clues and find a location. A lot of caches would still be unfounded.

Tahosa - Dweller of the Mountain Tops.

1.5k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Tahosa:
If you go to Lostoutdoors.com you can see the dot is quite aways from the

etc etc etc

I have a fantastic idea - Wouldn't it be super keen if people actually read the posts in a thread before creating a new one?

3k · November 8, 2002

You know wouldn't it be super keen if people actually read the posts in a thread before creating a new one?

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

3k · November 8, 2002

Oh crap, I didn't see that you posted that already Snazz.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
We'll have to agree to disagree.

OK, but not fun in a forum. Besides, I keep getting the impression that we agree on most things and that what we have here is a failure to communicate.

quote:
Like I’ve said before, if someone bores a hole through a redwood tree to hide a cache inside, does that impart guilt on us all?

Guilt? No. Outrage? Hopefully.

quote:
A few people will jump to the conclusion that all geocachers are mean tree haters, but they, like their stereotype, are inconsequential.

But they're not inconsequential. They pass laws and sway public opinion. And they control the media, but that's another story.

My sensei said there are three kinds of people in the world: Weasels, Lambs, and Weasel-Slappers.

ApK

November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Z:

quote:
Originally posted by 1000111-1000101-1001111:
Who appointed you Geo-cop anyways?

I'm glad you updated the page, but I must comment on this comment.

We're a self-policing communtity. Therefore, we're _all_ "geo-cop's."

Yes! That's what I was trying to say!

quote:
Hey, does anyone (Markwell) remember the cache a while back that was placed in the middle of a cloverleaf?

Wow, that's one small cache...where's his next one going to be, the eye of a needle?

ApK

2.6k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by MrMom:
To the owner of wired:

Thank you for updating the page. We don't need people stopping on the highway.

Geonavigating since 1991

Where exactly are these people who are stopping on the highway? YOu came to this forum stating that the cache was illegal and dangerous and it seems to be neither. Now he feels the need to change the web page so 'they' don't get hurt or stop on the freeway. Who exactly did you expect to stop on the freeway?

From the looks of it, you never went out to the cache to check. You've posted missleading information and others even quote your missleading information.

How many more caches do we need to dumb down. How about child proof safety latches on all cache conatainers?

geoge

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

3k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:
How many more caches do we need to dumb down. How about child proof safety latches on all cache conatainers?

Well put. I tried to put as little information as possible on my cache so that it wasn't too 'dumbed down' too much. I totaly agree and think it is silly that we need to tell people how to walk so that they do right thing and not hurt themselves.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

November 8, 2002

Criminal you may not believe that caches are being removed by park services hence giving Geo CAching a bad name but it is happening. Roadkill has given examples in Chicago on other forums, Mammoth Caves National park removes and diposes of all caches found within there property line (see Ghost & Goblins and read the description( and locally one of my favorite caches Kanyoo Trail was removed because the park had wetland area, even though the cache was hidden off the trail in the hardwood forest. And about parking: I personally love the longer and more challenging most hikes in areas I've never been before. Parking coordinates just give a starting point and in an area I'm not familiar it sometimes can be difficult to know where the correct parking lot is.

This cache is dangerous and illegal

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