Attributes ? is a smart phone a Special tool

[+little-leggs]

Okay my question today is -

 

Would you class a Smart Phone ( with access to the internet ) a T.O.T.T and use  Special Tool Required,

or

Do you think there should be a (NEW) attribute to indicate you'll need a Mobile Phone with Internet access

 

Me I think there is a need for a new attribute.    

as the game has moved on from using a PC to upload your caches via GPX files to a Garmin or other hand held GPS 

to now having the world at your finger tips in the way of a smart phone .

Edited May 1 by little-leggs

[+Max and 99]

45 minutes ago, little-leggs said:

Okay my question today is -

 

Would you class a Smart Phone ( with access to the internet ) a T.O.T.T and use  Special Tool Required,

or

Do you think there should be a (NEW) attribute to indicate you'll need a Mobile Phone with Internet access

 

Me I think there is a need for a new attribute.    

as the game has moved on from using a PC to upload your caches via GPX files to a Garmin or other hand held GPS 

to now having the world at your finger tips in the way of a smart phone .

My opinion is that the special tool needed in this case (and why) might be mentioned in the long description to help future finders. 

[+little-leggs]

1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

My opinion is that the special tool needed in this case (and why) might be mentioned in the long description to help future finders. 

so the use of a phone with internet access , could be something as simple as using certitude to check the final co-ords of a multi and to gain a hint 

[+The_Jumping_Pig]

In my opinion, no. Here's my list of reasons in no specific order.

1) I'd say the grand majority of cachers already have phones with them while caching (whether they use it as gps or not)... its kind of like saying you need a pen.

2) Almost all capabilities that can be done on a phone could also be theoretically be done on a computer, tablet, etc.... or you could just run home to your house to do them

3) No, it's not a TOTT. It's not a tool of the geocaching trade. It's a device that practically everybody uses.

4) No, it's not a special tool. It's a device that practically everybody uses.

5) You don't need to use certitude or a checker.

6) There are more important attributes that we need.

7) You can just write a note in the description. Don't really see why we would need an attribute -- I don't think many would be filtering for 'phone required' or anything similar that attributes are used for.

 

The idea that I would support is a cache that needs no electronics at all -- no GPS, no internet, just clues. But that's against the guidelines. Oh well.

[+barefootjeff]

42 minutes ago, The_Jumping_Pig said:

You don't need to use certitude or a checker.

 

I agree with most of your other points, but I've done quite a few multis and field-puzzle mysteries where the answer you obtain is a keyword which has to be entered into Certitude to get the coordinates of the final. Given that most of the caching I do these days is at least 50km from home, I can't just "run home" to use my PC, actually I usually take my laptop on caches like that as I find it easier to use Certitude on that than fiddling around on my phone's tiny screen.

[+The_Jumping_Pig]

10 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I agree with most of your other points, but I've done quite a few multis and field-puzzle mysteries where the answer you obtain is a keyword which has to be entered into Certitude to get the coordinates of the final. Given that most of the caching I do these days is at least 50km from home, I can't just "run home" to use my PC, actually I usually take my laptop on caches like that as I find it easier to use Certitude on that than fiddling around on my phone's tiny screen.

Good point.

[+barefootguru]

I created a multi which is scanning QR codes for the stages, and the reviewer said Special Tool should be added.

[+little-leggs]

16 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I've done quite a few multis and field-puzzle mysteries where the answer you obtain is a keyword which has to be entered into Certitude to get the coordinates of the final

This is what I'm taking about .

not sourly Certitude 

there are other puzzles which require the finder to use the internet in the field 

if this is so ( why write loads in the description ) just have an Attribute 

 

[+little-leggs]

14 hours ago, barefootguru said:

I created a multi which is scanning QR codes for the stages, and the reviewer said Special Tool should be added.

3) No, it's not a TOTT. It's not a tool of the geocaching trade. It's a device that practically everybody uses.

 

one of my cache's uses Reverse Wherigo , and I don't expect finder to go home to solve it , it set to solve in the field so they need a phone 

 

[+little-leggs]

18 hours ago, The_Jumping_Pig said:

6) There are more important attributes that we need.

I hear you 

this is just a thought .

with out thought where would we be .

 

what would you like to have an ( Attribute ) and see if we agree ,   cuss me for one will not be needing SNOW SHOE's were I'm from , but saying that there are lots of cache's where you will need them and to help the finder the Attribute SNOW SHOE's is used ,  

Edited May 2 by little-leggs

[+The_Jumping_Pig]

2 hours ago, little-leggs said:

I hear you 

this is just a thought .

with out thought where would we be .

I understand and I'm not trying to say your idea is stupid or anything (apologies if that is the way it came across), just sharing why I think it's not needed.

2 hours ago, little-leggs said:

what would you like to have an ( Attribute ) and see if we agree ,   cuss me for one will not be needing SNOW SHOE's were I'm from , but saying that there are lots of cache's where you will need them and to help the finder the Attribute SNOW SHOE's is used ,  

I would like a 'park' attribute, past just an amount of hiking required. Snow shoes aren't in my region either. I'm blanking on other ones at the moment.

 

By all means, keep on discussing this idea. In my opinion just "mobile phone required" would be too vague for something like a checker, but perhaps things that are really only possible on a phone (QR code, etc).

 

Anyway I'm just one small voice so maybe others are more supportive of this idea.

[+Luke Short]

I would be happy about an attribute "mobile internet required"!

 

(Almost) everyone has a phone, ok. But not everyone with an internet connection. My cell phone is only for making calls, without a contract, without internet.

 

I already had to end caches (multi and mystery) shortly before the final without success, because I suddenly needed internet; was not written in the listing.

 

An attribute "mobile internet required" would be helpful for geocachers like me who don't have it.

 

(Translated from German with deepL)

[+baer2006]

4 hours ago, Luke Short said:

I would be happy about an attribute "mobile internet required"!

 

(Almost) everyone has a phone, ok. But not everyone with an internet connection. My cell phone is only for making calls, without a contract, without internet.

 

I already had to end caches (multi and mystery) shortly before the final without success, because I suddenly needed internet; was not written in the listing.

 

An attribute "mobile internet required" would be helpful for geocachers like me who don't have it.

 

(Translated from German with deepL)

This is a very good point! While I have a data plan on my phone inside my home country (plus the whole EU), I don't have this abroad. I don't think it's an uncommon situation, that tourists (incl. geocachers) rely on the WIFI in their accommodation, but don't care for roaming data plans. Every good geocaching app allows complete offline operation (incl. cache data, maps, etc.), so WIFI-only cachers are fine ... until a cache suddenly and unexpectedly requires an internet connection in the field.

 

That said, setting the "Special Tool" icon for such a cache, and mentioning in the listing that the "tool" is a phone with internet access, is very useful. Having a specialized "Internet required" attribute would be a bonus, but not a necessity.

[+HHL]

5 hours ago, Luke Short said:

because I suddenly needed internet; was not written in the listing.

 

An attribute "mobile internet required" would be helpful for geocachers like me who don't have it.

Correct. But an ignorant CO who doesn't mention the need for a data connection may also be missing an attribute setting.

Edited May 3 by HHL

[+arisoft]

I tried to publish a traditonal cache that requires an allen wrench to open hex screws. Reviewer told me that it must be a mystery if the tool is not available on the cache site. From this viewpoint, talking about mobile phone as a tool seems absurd.

 

 

[+barefootjeff]

13 minutes ago, arisoft said:

I tried to publish a traditonal cache that requires an allen wrench to open hex screws. Reviewer told me that it must be a mystery if the tool is not available on the cache site. From this viewpoint, talking about mobile phone as a tool seems absurd.

 

 

 

This must be a regional thing. I've found quite a few traditionals with the Special tool required attribute, most of them tree-fishing ones needing a pole, a few needing a ladder and one that needed a kayak paddle to access it!

[+ecanderson]

On 5/3/2024 at 2:57 PM, arisoft said:

I tried to publish a traditonal cache that requires an allen wrench to open hex screws. Reviewer told me that it must be a mystery if the tool is not available on the cache site. From this viewpoint, talking about mobile phone as a tool seems absurd.

 

 

The reviewer's understanding sounds very much mistaken to me. 

 

I'd ask your reviewer if he's ever seen a Traditional with the Field Puzzle attribute set.  Many of the rest of us have.  Try a search of traditional caches with the field puzzle attribute set and you'll find quite a number of them around here.  Some definitely require you to bring your own tool ... some require the finder to bring water!  Here, there also many traditional caches with the Special Tool Required attribute.

 

And what if a ladder is required?  Would your reviewer require that to be a mystery as well?  I think not. 

 

 

[+arisoft]

15 hours ago, ecanderson said:

The reviewer's understanding sounds very much mistaken to me. 

 

I am thinking that the reviewer was reviewing the cache instead of the listing. Why reviewers need information about the physical cache at all, if they are reviewing the listing?

[Keystone]

7 hours ago, arisoft said:

Why reviewers need information about the physical cache at all, if they are reviewing the listing?

Because we review for compliance with the Geocache Hiding Guidelines.  The Guidelines include, among many other things, coverage of buried caches and caches that deface the object they're attached to (like bolting a birdhouse into a tree).  So, many Reviewers ask about the container, how it's hidden, and how a visiting geocacher retrieves the cache and accesses the log.

[+arisoft]

9 hours ago, Keystone said:

Because we review for compliance with the Geocache Hiding Guidelines

 

Ok, do these guidelines contain anything about smart phones or allen keys as reguired tools to open the container when hiding a traditional cache at the posted coordinates?

 

A fishing rod and ladders are used regularly so they must be allowed.

[+GerandKat]

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

they must be allowed.

"Can be allowed" would be the more precise expression. 

"All local laws and land management policies apply." is one of the most fundamental guidelines, and if the use of one of these items is regulated with these laws in some areas, they aren't allowed (e.g. in nature reserve areas in Germany there is usually a "don't leave the footpath" regulation and we're waiting for more than 10 years for the CO to proove us, that they can use a ladder and leave at least one foot on the ground).

The other way around, it's perfectly okay to use a "big shot" as part of your tactical tree climbing gear in Germany, but don't dare to take it our neighbor The Netherlands, as it's a weapon around there.

So regional context is really important.

[+cerberus1]

The other 2/3rds was using her blackberry and the Trimble app as far back as 2005/'06...

But she was only a handful at the time.

Today, even this old fart has a sorta-smart phone, but continue using a GPSr (used a 13 mini once or twice for caching...)   

Most people I rarely bump into while hiking or caching are using their phones.  I wouldn't think it's a "special" tool these days...

As a JIC, a CO could mention searchers may need their phone while there.

 

[+little-leggs]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:15 PM, cerberus1 said:

a CO could mention searchers may need their phone while there.

? that what the "Attribute" would do 
Not every attribute is needed in all areas , ie Snowmobiles , but there is an attribute for those who do need / like to use it